TopCoder chooses China over India

Posted by: Bruce Einhorn on October 26, 2006

Rob Hughes is in a good position to judge the merits of China’s software engineers compared to their counterparts in India. He’s president of TopCoder Inc., the Connecticut company that relies on a global group of freelance programmers to do outsourcing work for customers like Google, America Online and Merrill Lynch, TopCoder divides projects into small bits that it puts on the Internet and invites programmers anywhere in the world to solve. As I report in this new BusinessWeek story about the Chinese software industry, Hughes says that he’s impressed by the quality of software engineers in China, which accounts for over 40% of the total number of programmers taking part in TopCoder competitions. As a whole, China ranks third in TopCoder’s software rankings, behind Poland and Russia - but the two European countries have far fewer programmers taking part in competitions.

And what about India? The country doesn’t come close to China, says Hughes. “The talent is much better coming out of China,” he says. He thinks one reason is that the talent pool in India is getting diluted. Since the software services industry started taking off in India, the number of students becoming engineers has zoomed, Hughes argues. And the quality of India’s engineering base has suffered as a result. “Some people are surprised” that India isn’t a bigger source of talent for TopCoder, “because of the IITs and the strength in India,” he explains. However, “over the last five years there has been such a growth of outsourcing of U.S. companies to India, there has really been a push to get as many people through [the schools], to get them some kind of technical degree.”

China has been pushing hard, too, with the opening of three dozen software colleges, designed to train engineers for jobs in the industry, since 2002. But Hughes remains a big believer in China, where TopCoder is opening its first overseas office. “I think that the talent is much heavier and better coming out of China,” he says. Of course, one reason that it’s harder for TopCoder to find engineers in India is that the best ones go to work for one of the companies - Indian or foreign - that has set up shop in Bangalore, Hyderabad or Bombay. China just hasn’t had that sort of big wave of investment. But if wages continue to rise in India and top programmers become harder and harder to find, don’t be surprised if more companies start following TopCoder to Beijing.

Reader Comments

jcage

October 27, 2006 2:01 AM

Bruce, here we go again!! Bruce should stop publishing inflaming articles for a time. I mean one or two is OK but continously putting out those China vs India only bring up people emotion.
I guess, Bruce does check the comment section on daily basis to see if there is any reaction to his article. It must be an hobby for him to see people insulting each other for his own amusement.

One can not base on the opinion from one single person or company to thrash an entire industry eventhough such as person or company might be correct. Bruce, you need to do more research before making such as blanket statement. It is not fair to anyone to praise someone at the expense of other.
China and India are both countries that are trying very hard to get ahead in the world. Their progress rate might be different but their objective is prosperity for their own people.

Readers should post comment on your article and not on the countries that are being mentioned in your article.

James Ng

October 28, 2006 7:15 AM

Bruce is just telling what most people in the West don't want to hear. But he's telling the trouh. It's not that China is awaking we need to worry about, but the fact that the West is falling in sleep that should be concerned.

dash

October 28, 2006 8:26 PM

Hey Bruce my views a little bit generic and I am not basing my judgment based on any facts. Skilled people may be too occupied with a fulltime job to have anytime for Top coder!! A few hundred excellent programmers with little soft and business acumen can hardly build a silicon valley. Mr Bruce look at the bigger picture being a good programmer isn't enough graduating from there to being a tech entreprenur yeah a big leap.
It isn't a question of China or India it's who are the people who have the ability to think about the next big thing like Mr Robert Hughes himself. It's the political and human determination of the whole world. Next time Please let us if there was anyone from either of these countries or from anywhere in this world who has thought or done anything more exciting than your duel between China and India

Peter from New York

October 29, 2006 1:12 AM

Throwing in my two cents worth and not making any judgement calls.
There are probably more commentators of Indian origin than Chinese ones who compare the two countries. Until recently India was not on the radar for most Chinese. The Chinese look more to the USA for comparison on economic and military matters if only because the latter country provides them with their largest market and their global military presence makes them nervous.
What has brought the attention of India to the Chinese in quite recent times is (1) India's nuclear weapons program. (2) India's expanding military. (3) The USA's courtship of India and the latter's willing acceptance in order to contain China. (4) China realizing like everyone else that India has about 100 million middle-class customers.

Steve

October 30, 2006 11:55 AM

Indians' performance in IBM ACM contests were also very poor.

It was not because Indians did not attented the contests. IF you check the details, many indians were there. But they lost.

India gov only invests around US$500 for each college student, how can they have a good higher education?

GUM

November 20, 2006 1:22 PM

It is a quite stupid idea to make comparison between India and China. We are different, We are in different step of growth economy in terms of per capital GDP.
Our Chinese do believe that I could be better to make comparison between Vietnam and India, since Vietnam is the fastest expanding economy after China in Asia. It has a similar per capital GDP per capital compared with India.
In addition, I do not understand why Indians always talk about the war occurred in 1963 between the two nations, but few Chinese people can remember it. Because India lost the war?
I am not trying to demean Indian progress. Contrary; I am pleased to see a changing India.
But please stop arguing that India will overtake China and exaggerating Indian progress.
Software design can not provide worth to tens of million people, who is not well-educated
Please believe that Indian rival is Vietnam not China

Narsimhan

December 22, 2006 1:36 PM

I am Indian and must agree with author's comments.What Topcoder CEO has said is EXACTLY right.The quality is far below than 15/20 years back.The reasons are obvious.Many US companies have offshored their work to India.Even Indian companies who used to have very stringent criteria for selection few years back changed their strategy of hiring as they want bigger pie too in global market.Schools too become more of publicity/propaganda than publishing quality reasearch papers.So your are out of school with some BE/MCA degree and you have 2/3 job offers.

pawan kumar

January 30, 2007 9:38 PM

In coming future india will show his real strength ,then whole world will be surprised by coding power of indians

Kalyan

January 31, 2007 5:41 AM

India is moving up the value chain now and is surely poised to succeed. BPO/Software services are no more the only choice for the young and bright technical folks. They dare to dream beyond regualr jobs. India will see its energetic talent pool putting in more of its time into innovation and catering to the specific internal needs. Its almost a phenomenon which no one can stop. Unlike many, India is a very reasonable country and its success will surely be positive for the entire world.

China too is trying hard to get into the software world. It will. Because its putting all energy, money and policies in place. We from India as usual will only wish the best for China too. Amen

rc

February 14, 2007 4:43 PM

I am an Indian and I somewhat agree to what the author had said.
Sad, but true - an average Indian software engineer is not interested in 'coding' - and I have come across horrible guys all through my 7 years in software.
It must have something to do with the good:bad ratio in the large pool of engineers our country spits out every year.

kartheek

February 15, 2007 2:56 AM

the sign of things to come ... as long as we Indians live in this euphoric world of offshoring-continues-for-ever.

Most Indian workforces acknowledges that the majority of work offshored is low-end/low-skill in nature ... but there is little they can do about it. It is the govt (and the private sector?) that should create an env for innovation.

qwerty

May 28, 2007 11:04 PM

Everybody knows India and China are the next two super powers. So people who are jealous try to build up tensions between the 2 nations.

Kamal R. Nariani

July 3, 2007 9:01 AM

Like everyone else's brain, Bruce's brain has 2 parts and unfortunately these 2 hemispheres in Bruce's brain are always in conflict and he draws a Simile between this conflict in his brain with India & China.
Dear Mr Bruce, its good to compare but if you are getting some intellectual kicks for continuously showing India in the poor light, then you need a Psychiatrist and not these series of comments from readers like us. And laggers are not necessarily loosers, laggers can also go ahead with time, which you may find difficult to digest today!
It's time for you to see what you can contribute towards the economy growth rather than talk nonsense.

Samir

August 27, 2007 12:30 AM

Hello everybody.

I am in USA since 2 years and in the IT industry since 10 years. Quality is a relative term. But there is absolutely no comparison between Indians and Chinese. China is way behind. Software is not only the coding. It is more about the management. Indians are the best in the software and will be there till the end of Software era.

Rajendra Koti

September 2, 2007 10:39 AM

Hi,
Some background, I have spent some 8 years with the software industry working in Japan,California,Bangalore and Pune in classic American startups,Indian services setups and MNC R&D units in India.

First of all, one swallow doesn't make a summer. For one Topcoder there are plenty others who have an India presence.

I must however agree with the general tenor of the article that Indian's aren't that great at programming. The reason simply is that we are better businessmen. Most Indian's have a keen sense of sensing trends and cashing in on them. The explosion of Indian programmers was more because the clear labor arbitrage between the west and India. Highly educated Indians (IITians) have exploited this via the H1-B route and many entrepreneurs via the IT services route. If the arbitrage is no longer attractive, they will find something else. On the other hand if we find out you can make "significantly" more by becoming better coders, a section of the crowd will respond to the trend. For now it is not worthwhile. There is no premium.

Kesav

September 5, 2007 10:56 AM

Dear Bruce,

You really have some Psychological problem and you have some phobia about India. You are neither a true Journalist nor Technocrat. You stop your stupid postings here biasing always to China. You are simply a half knowledge fellow. God bless to your parent magazine Business Week.

And hello GUM, dont think too much about China, I traveled all around China, what the world knows about China development is only in South and in Beijing, remaining all parts of China are no worst than any African country, everywhere poor farmers, ok. If you didnt travel other Provinces, just go and look by ur own eyes. I don't have any negative thoughts about Chinese development, but you kind of people should know the truth, don't be half knowledge, its too dangerous. Find the below article by ur own Chinese person written.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/e4462190-8c42-11da-9efb-0000779e2340,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2Fe4462190-8c42-11da-9efb-0000779e2340.html&_i_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.fr%2Fsearch%3Fq%3DChinese+comments+on+India


Peter

September 9, 2007 3:31 PM

How can India be a power when most of the people are illiterate? The infrastructure in India is poor. Electricity supply is inadequate. If you travel around India, you will find out that most of India is still filled with poor, illiterate farmers. India is way behind Vietnam in many areas.

Jason

October 15, 2007 4:09 AM

Kesav, there are probably far more areas that look like an African country in India, so like you said, "don't be half knowledge".

Kesav

October 15, 2007 7:53 AM

Jason,

In India everybody know in Central India and Bihar things are worst, as no development is there compare with other parts of India....I didn't say that all over India is developing......

jcage

October 15, 2007 5:19 PM

India level of poverty is as bad or worse than any sub-saharan countries.
Kesaw state that only "Beijin and the South" is developed and the rest of China is like any African countries. Yeah right!
Shanghai, Tianjin, Chonggin, and many other interior provinces are more advance than the most advanced stated in India.
Stop lying..

Celestial Emperor

October 21, 2007 12:27 PM

So many Indians claim to have travelled all over China and accordingly claim to have first hand knowledge of conditions in China which the Indians always without fail portray in an extremely negative light. Either these Indians are jealous liars or have other ulterior motives.

I have travelled to India and to tell you all the truth if slums (where grinding poverty and filth are visible in abundance) like mumbai, delhi, banglore, gurgaon and hyderabad are the best cities in india then I really don't need to travel to the least developed parts of india to tell how much shining india really is.

What I find most outrageous and disgusting is the hippocritcal self-righteous attitude of these Indians towards China. Yet all these Indians want to come and live in China and take advantage of the opportunities that China has to offer. No Chinese wants to go and live in 'free and democratic' India.

Even outside mainland China, any country with a Chinese majority population like Singapore, Taiwan and Hong Kong are prosperous and developed world class places and yes plenty of Indians living there with no intention of going back to India as long as they are able to stay. Talk about the blatant hippocracy of these indians.

Whether India develops or not or for that matter whether China develops or not has nothing to do with the western concept of freedom and democracy or the lack of it. It has more to do with the mindset, attitude and ways of thinking that sets the two apart.

We Chinese are not perfect by any account and have our flaws but we are not in the same league as the Indians and vice versa.

Indians say India will overtake China by 2020?? Even by 2120 I DON'T THINK SO!!!!

Chanakya

October 22, 2007 11:21 AM

Hey Celestial,

Hey Fool, when did you travel to India? I told you already close all your nine holes and don't show up ur half-knowledge, you Idiot. Many Indians coming back from overseas to setup their own businesses, its Brain-Gain, Hey fool, before post, at least read and refer some statistics, don't burk like a street dog.

Celestial Emperor

November 3, 2007 2:30 PM

Hey Chanakya

Heres a small sample of how shining India really is:

30 ILLEGAL INDIAN IMMIGRANTS CAUGHT IN FRENCH ALPS: CHAMONIX, France, Nov 3 (AFP) - Thirty illegal Indian immigrants travelling in “inhuman conditions” were stopped while crossing the French Alps in a small truck, border police said Friday. “They were packed together, standing up, in inhuman conditions in an area of less than six square metres. It was horrible,” said Michel Drezen, head of the border police in France's Haute-Savoie region. The illegal immigrants aged between 16 and 30 were mostly from the northern Indian state of Punjab. Seven of them were aged under 17. Each of them paid about 10,000 euros (14,500 dollars) to be transported to Belgium from Rome, where they landed with fake visas.

Most of the illegal Indian immigrants were from Punjab state and Punjab is said to be India's richest state so what to talk about the rest of India.

menokki

November 4, 2007 4:48 PM

But it is true that Indians dont 'respect' coding as much as other things.
But coding is not a big deal, unless you're sending a man to the moon. All you need is a good Project Director (who is usually white, since they make the best coders) and a lot of slaves down below.

To CelestiaL:

Theres been heck of a lot illegal Chinese immigrants too. Remember the cases in Britain where many went to pick cockles and died?

But there are people here who are quick to pick up Bruces Bait

Kayeman

November 5, 2007 6:32 AM

Celestial,

You are picking up suitable tit-bits here and there to make ur case. Just remember, about 50/60 years ago, India was ahead of China. So it will not be difficult for India to catch up again and overtake China if necessary. India will not need to wait till 2120 for that.

As opposed to India, where freedom of press, expression and speech exist, (which is why you are able to get at all those negative stories) the same freedoms do not simply exist in China. In China, many negative issues are simply swept under the carpet where they are left to fester and erupt into riots. This is probably the reason for many persons able to hurl abuse at India very conveniently while not being able to do likewise to China simply because such material is not freely reported.

Below is an internet extract.
(http://pekingduck.org/archives/002689.php ".... The riots in Xinchang are a part of a rising tide of discontent in China, with the number of mass protests like these skyrocketing to 74,000 incidents last year from about 10,000 a decade earlier, according to government figures. ....)

David Will

November 5, 2007 1:44 PM

Bruce,

I like you blog and you provided valuable information on two of the fastest growing economies in the world. Keep on the good work!

Celestial Emperor

November 5, 2007 8:09 PM

Nobody said that there weren't illegal Chinese immigrants, my previous post was intended as a rebuttal to all those Indians who are quick to point out negatives about China and Chinese people but convieniently hide their own negatives.

Latest statistics show that Indian immigrants outnumber Chinese immigrants, although the number of Chinese immigrants is still significant.

Another interesting fact being there are more and more illegal Indian immigrants coming to Hong Kong which is now a part of China and Indians can be seen in ever increasing numbers even in mainland China. Compare that with Chinese people going to live in India. How many of them will you find?

jcage

November 8, 2007 1:46 PM

Kayeman

You mentioned that Chinese media hide all the fault of the Chinese government and then the internet extract mentioned that Chinese Government acknowledge about the 74,000 riot or disturbance from last year! Therefore, it prove that Chinese government are not hiding the truth as you want everyone to believe!

Also, India was more advance than China 50 to 60 years ago, this is due to the fact that China was ravaged during World War 2, civil war while India was safely under British rule. However, China still manage to surpass India despite of the ravage of WW2! Besides, India was much better shape than many European country after WW2!
Everyone surpass India so far except for some African countries but eventually they will do as well.

Celestial Emperor

November 8, 2007 9:05 PM

"You are picking up suitable tit-bits here and there to make ur case. Just remember, about 50/60 years ago, India was ahead of China. So it will not be difficult for India to catch up again and overtake China if necessary. India will not need to wait till 2120 for that."

Listen up Kayeman

50 to 60 years ago India was more developed than China because of the British rule in India while China was still struggling to rise from the devastation of the opium war, world war 2 and the civil war in China. India didn't have to contend with the same level of calamity as China had to. It is no fluke that China has raced ahead of India while India is trailing behind despite having an earlier lead owing to more favourable conditions. Your boastful prediction of India's effortless overtake of China based on such flimsy arguments is laughable. If I could live a life long enough to take me till 2120, I wouldn't be surprised if the gap between China and India has widened even furthur to the point where the gap has to be measured in light years.

You Indians never tire of bragging about how free India is when compared with China and how free the Indian press is and the rest of the blah blah blah yet there are more and more Indian living in China today than Chinese living in India. Why this contradiction? Seems like you Indians are constantly trying to dig out the others dirt while trying to conceal your own bigger pile of filth. India has even greater numbers of armed insugencies taking place from Kashmir to the North-East and the human rights abuses perpetrated by the Indian security forces on the innocent civilians of the affected areas. India is no gleaming icon of freedom, virtue and all that is good and pious but Indians will always boast about freedom of speech and free Indian press to promote their expediency.


I don't mean to be a boastful braggert like Indians but just for the sake of the argument, I would suggest reading the articles provided by the links below:

http://www.scmp.com/portal/site/SCMP/menuitem.2c913216495213d5df646910cba0a0a0/?vgnextoid=39f469bc2cf06110VgnVCM100000360a0a0aRCRD&vgnextfmt=teaser&ss=Hong+Kong&s=News

http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20071105/86668601.html

Chanakya

November 9, 2007 10:03 AM

Hey Burking dog,

Indians can travel to Hong Kong without any Visa for 14 days, so, we travel for Leisure or Business trips, India have long Business links with HK, even before handover to China, its fine, How about Chinese travel to Hong Kong, do you go to HK without ur Police permission letter ? so, thats the difference.

Hey Idiot, you always speaking, many Indians are in China, offcourse, they doing business there in Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen, Guangzhou and Huangzhou, there are not immigrants to settle in China, Do u think, there are many Europeans and Americans in China, they also Immigrants ?

World knows very well, who are the most Illegals in the World. How the European, US, UK, Australian Embassies rejecting the visas reached sometimes 90% (even for students). I have first hand experience, when I want to bring my Chinese girl friend to Europe, how big difficulty for Chinese.

My Chinese girl friend laughing and feeling shame, as you kind of half-knowledge fellows downgrading the Chinese image. So, don't burk in order to say something, but the end result all non-sense and futile......

Chanakya

November 10, 2007 2:22 PM

Hey Fool,

Your chinese companies will kill you one day with their fake food.....

It seems ur suffering with Phobia, better consult a psychiatrist before u become a mad guy..... Don't think too much about India.

Celestial Emperor

November 12, 2007 7:56 PM

Hey Chanakya, Heres another sample to show you who are the largest contributors to illegal immigration nowadays

SLOVAKS, INDIAN CHARGED WITH HUMAN TRAFFICKING

BRATISLAVA: Police have charged six Slovaks and one Indian national with trafficking more than 100 Asians including children through Slovakia, officials said Friday.

Police searched 16 houses in and around the capital Bratislava following a court order on Thursday, finding 19 Indians in one house alone, including nine children, Slovakian interior ministry spokeswoman Vladimira Hrebenakova said.

The group had been planning and coordinating the trafficking of illegal immigrants from Pakistan, India and Bangladesh through Slovakia to third countries, police said.

More than 100 Slovakian policemen were involved in Thursday’s bust, they said.

Slovakia, which should become part of the EU’s passport free Schengen zone before the end of the year, is frequently used as a transit country for migrants coming from the former Soviet Union, the Middle East and South Asia.—AFP

And read the articles provided by the links below. In just brief sentences it'll show you how many Indians are coming to Hong Kong for business nowadays.

http://www.scmp.com/portal/site/SCMP/menuitem.2c913216495213d5df646910cba0a0a0/?vgnextoid=8ce9d5df80f26110VgnVCM100000360a0a0aRCRD&vgnextfmt=teaser&ss=Hong+Kong&s=News

http://www.scmp.com/portal/site/SCMP/menuitem.2c913216495213d5df646910cba0a0a0/?vgnextoid=42f8d5df80f26110VgnVCM100000360a0a0aRCRD&vgnextfmt=teaser&ss=Hong+Kong&s=News

Celestial Emperor

November 12, 2007 9:17 PM

And a heck of a lot Indians have gained Special Administrative Region or Hong Kong resident passports which is Chinese citizenship but under Hong Kong jurisdiction and a heck of a lot Indians are applying to get one. This should tell you whether there are Indian immigrants settled in China or not.

The citizenship of mainland China is not available to foreigners otherwise Indians would be applying as well.

And not all Indians come to China and Hong Kong to do business. A heck of a lot of Indians are illegal migrants who first enter China in order to slip into Hong Kong through the Shenzhen border crossing. Do some research first Chanakya and then bark away as much as you want. LOL!!

Don't tell so much lies Chanakya. There are many many Indians who would rather live in war torn Africa than return to live in India.

Does anyone including Indians even want to take up Indian citizenship and live in India if they had a choice? How about you Chanakya? Why do you live in Europe? Why not "shining" India?

I can always expect another dose of child like rambling nonsense from this Chanakya. LOL!!

ali ispahani (iranian)

November 12, 2007 9:32 PM

I cannot help laugh my @$$ off at these Indians making tall statements about India becoming number 1 country by 2010 or 2020. Everyday hundreds of Indians along with Pakistanis and Bandladeshis are arrested in Iran trying to illegally cross over to Europe. All of them are economic migrants and the numbers arrested just keeps on increasing. With the population bomb in India ticking away, India is more likely to be a super-powderkeg than a superpower.

Bruce Lee

November 18, 2007 3:21 PM

Don't "burk" so much youself Chanakya.

Pay a visit to Hong Kong and see for yourself how many Indian illegal immigrants and asylum seekers are being held by the police and immigration authorities.

Yes you heard right, Indian asylum seekers in China (Hong Kong). Ironic isn't it? Indians from "free" and "democratic" India are begging to stay in "authotarian dictatorship" China. But I'm sure according to Chanakya all these Indians are big time entrepreneurs who come to do business and you sure as hell won't find any Chinese asylum seekers in India.

I have first hand experience, when I want to bring my Indian girl friend to Hong Kong, how big difficulty for Indians.

My Indian girl friend laughing and feeling shame. So, don't "burk" all the time.

Chanakya

November 19, 2007 6:48 AM

Hey Idiot,

You burking dog, You showed again, u guys real Copy Cat character, everything from words to Technology. Hey Fool I traveled several times to HK. At immigration counters always get trouble with you Mainland Chinese, not by Indians or Westerners. Indians not going HK as Illegals, you guys Mainland Chinese going Illegaly to HK and even to Taiwan in ur own country, don't you feel shame ? I think I needn't say more than this.... Don't show you guys stupidity again and again...

DisappointedAmerican

November 19, 2007 9:55 AM

I have worked with mostly Indian programmers for the past six years or so, some H1Bs and some permanant residents and even US citizens, but almost all educated in Indian. I have to say that 90% of them are very mediocre.

To start out with, I gave them very little tasks just to gauge how much I could rely on them. I was quite disappointed most of the time and ended up having to do what I assigned to them myself. As the lead/architect, I am naturally weary of using Indian programmers for anything important and risk having to fix and complete their code myself. I am really sick and tired of that.

The only decent Indian programmer I have worked with got his undergraduate education in the US.

Titan

November 19, 2007 2:39 PM

Mr Chanakya
Ningxia, the poorest province in China, can attract a large number of students from India:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/oct/18spec1.htm

Al

November 20, 2007 1:55 AM

I think average adult Indians actually have higher average IQ than Chinese even though statistics show that Chinese has inherited IQ 105 and Indian has inherited IQ 81. There is an environmental factor or g-factor in IQ measurement. This g-factor is in India’s favor. Hinduism is full of imagination and abstract reasoning. Indians benefit from learning Hinduism from very early stage. Hinduism helps boost Indian’s IQ. It is medically proved that Vegetarian has position correlation with IQ. Most Indians are vegetarian whilst Chinese just eat any meat. In the wild world, slower animals live longer. Elephant lives longer than lion. Human being tends to have longevity and be healthier when being hungry. Indians are constantly on diet whilst Chinese just too much enjoy their food. This also helps Indian IQ. Hindu culture also increase EQ. Just look at Chinese movies. They just produce some way too serious fighters like Bruce Lee or Jacky Chan etc. while Indian BOLLYWOOD produces loads of highly emotional and musical movies. There are also medical researches indicating that onion reduce CHL and stimulate brain cells and smoking kills brain cells. Everyone knows Chinese are big smoker and Indian uses onion in every Curry spices. Another very important environmental factor is the “Creative Chaos”. India is always is in a state of Chaos. At the same time, Indian culture emphasizes education. A culture of Chaos combined with strong education trains and force Indian to be creative to survive within these Chaoses which in turn elevate Indian IQ. Putting all these evidences together, Indian average IQ should go north and Chinese IQ go down South.

Chanakya

November 20, 2007 5:44 AM

Mr. Titan,

Indian students who are coming to China for study, they are merely for Medical education. I think u can find it in ur link. As, in India medical education in private sector is very expensive, if they don't get admission in government colleges.

You can found how Indian universities and companies impart training to Chinese students and faculty. But, I am not thinking any great about it, as its common practice, people can go anywhere to learn new stuff.

Its a good beginning to make it from now on Asian Power to dominate the world as it was before 17th Century by improving knowledge and skills with co-operation, as we do with Japan.

http://www.hindu.com/2007/11/16/stories/2007111653100500.htm
http://www.hindu.com/2007/11/17/stories/2007111758710100.htm
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1358079.cms
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2006/03/25/stories/2006032514220100.htm
http://www.offshoringtimes.com/Pages/2007/BPO_news1816.html
http://www.infosys.com/media/press_releases/chinese-students-training.asp

Chanakya

November 20, 2007 7:24 AM

Haa, DisappointedAmerican,

Do you expect a high quality programming from a Social science background programmer, who learn programming languages in just few months, that is what happening to you guys.

Your companies should find the best talent from the right background people, not for who comes for cheaper.. Nowadays everybody learning programming languages from vast backgrounds (Humanities, social sciences, commerce, etc.,), because its easy to get a job even without proper experience.....

If you recruit American(US)from Humanities or Social science background, u will get more worse results than Indian...So.. You can suggest ur company recruit best talent....

Celestial Emperor

November 20, 2007 8:06 PM

Chanakya you have never really been to Hong Kong or China, you are just making up your stories. There are plenty of Indian illegals in Hong Kong nowadays just as there are plenty of mainland Chinese tourists coming to HK nowadays and they don't face any hassels at immigration.

Celestial Emperor

November 20, 2007 8:21 PM

Heres yet another small sample for you Chanakya

24 INDIAN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS FOUND IN A VAN IN FRANCE REIMS, France, Nov 15 (AFP): French police who stopped a van at a checkpoint in Reims found 24 illegal immigrants from India including two children in the back, a spokesman said Wednesday. The migrants were originally from the Indian Punjab, police say. The group was arrested and transferred to a detention centre in Lille.

And read the article provided by the link below:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2007/nov/16/emigration

Jesvin

November 21, 2007 1:33 AM

You people are so stupid. Both nationalities displays nationalism, pride, and a snobby attitude which will never get them anywhere.

Now, let me talk about the real topic. China is at a stage similar to India 15-20 years ago. In the late 80s to the 90s, India's IT workers were highly certified, skilled, and had decent English communication skills. But the first two characteristics have deteriorated due to the high demand of Indian "talent."

Now the Chinese are producing highly-skilled IT workers. But I doubt that it will build its IT workforce to be big as India's because of India's presence.

The Chinese should pursue to build a strong hardware market, which will dominate India's. This is somewhat existent because of Lenovo, the Chinese PC producing company.

Chanakya

November 21, 2007 8:30 AM

Hey,

Yes, Indians goes illegaly in a small numbers (Tens), especially Punjabis (Crazy guys)to the West. you can find such incidents yearly several times, nothing surprise it.

I needn't specifically mention about hundreds of Chinese Illegals all over the world. I am not suppose to discuss this issue, I don't want hurt other Chinese, in order to Counter u kind of Idiots... They are poor, want to find a better life, Many Chinese working illegally in the restaurents in a terrible conditions working each day 12 to 16 hours in Germany and France. its not a wise to speak about them. We do nothing to them, just speaking nonsense here.

Anyway, I suppose to travel to China again in Dec, if you have guts, let us discuss with fellow Chinese, what they feel about China and Chinese government.


http://networkeurope.radio.cz/feature/eviction-rate-of-chinese-illegal-immigrants-in-france-on-rise
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200504/18/eng20050418_181567.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12174500/
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200506/24/eng20050624_192189.html
http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=9437

Celestial Emperor

November 22, 2007 9:20 PM

Don't tell lies Chanakya, the number of Indian illegals is not as small as you are trying to make it out to be while inflating the numbers for Chinese illegals.

There are plenty dirt poor Indians who illegally migrate all over the world as well but ofcourse Indians try to create the impression that all illegal immigrants are Chinese while all Indian immigrants are highly educated professionals.

Bruce Lee

November 23, 2007 4:27 PM

and why the hell Chanakya and other Indians always say they want to go to China when they all always talk ill about China and Chinese people all the time?

SHAMELESS HIPPOCRATES!!

No Chinese no matter how poor or desperate ever wants to go to India.

ABC

November 23, 2007 8:30 PM

Mr. AI

It's your intelligence that is highly flawed.

Dagger

December 21, 2007 1:34 AM

ROFLMAO!!! :D
I am sorry my fellow Indian citizens. But I can't control my laughter, after reading all your angry comments. Why do you want to argue on something that we don't deserve [Leaving an exceptional few like me :)], atleast for now. I know denial is the logical human response to such contumely, but it will take time before Indian education system takes a good shape, might be some 2 generations apart.
Anyway, the world will become a better place to live very soon and whole earth will be a competitive ground with all races trying to get up the ladder.

Chanakya

April 16, 2008 3:29 PM

I’m so ashamed of myself. I won't tell lies, makeup stuff and talk nonsense anymore. Please accept my apologies.

exgalaxy

September 22, 2008 6:25 AM

Celestial Emperor

I am from nanjing, jiangsu province in china. I want to say Celestial You idiot, it make no sense to burk to others. One chinese proverb says win if u know well each other. Everyone has it flaw, but it is not the problem. The worst thing is that one only see his own merits and others' flaws. In fact both nations are the 2 largest developping countries and have a long way to develop, so now stop disputing and work hard.

Maybe u r a teenage. if that, go back to school and study hard other than burking here.

Celestial Emperor

October 5, 2008 9:00 PM

Exgalaxy

Shut Up.

Maybe you are that Chanakaya pretending to be Chinese.

Wiki

October 14, 2008 5:20 AM

Indian Americans have the highest educational qualifications of all national origin groups in the United States. According to the American Association of Physicians of Indian Origin, there are close to 41,000 Indian American doctors. According to the 2000 census, about 64% of Indian Americans have attained a Bachelor's degree or more.[2](compared to 28% nationally, and 44% average for all Asian American groups). Almost 40% of all Indians have a master’s, doctorate or other professional degree, which is five times the national average. (Source: The Indian American Centre for Political Awareness.) These high levels of education have enabled Indian Americans to become a productive segment of the American population, with 72.3% participating in the U.S. work force, of which 57.7% are employed in managerial and professional specialties

According to the 2000 U.S. Census, Indian Americans have a median income of around $60,000 which is the highest of any national origin group in the United States and Merrill Lynch recently revealed that there are nearly 200,000 Indian American millionaires. This phenomenon has been linked to the "brain drain" of the Indian intelligentsia from India (source: Journal of Political Economy - University of Chicago Press). Recently, however, there has been a drop in immigration of Indians from India to the United States. This is generally attributed to the improving economy of India. A large group of Indian Americans are presently second or third generation

Jeff

October 15, 2008 8:58 PM

You gotta love ppl like Wiki, wiki try browse and read more on some of the articles here in BW and you will know why BW so love you

Sujeet Jog

October 16, 2008 2:45 AM

Hi All,

Had come to check the topic, But after reading, i was amazed as how the the topic related to programming got changed to something ugly....
Guys relax , It's time now to build our nations better, then pin pointing each other, yes agreed there are flaws in the system , and i dont say this or the other nation is perfect, we normally generalize our thoughts, after just looking @ 2-3 incidents....,

ahmed

May 17, 2009 4:05 AM

hey celestial
you are really fool.one poor country say another poor
if u always tell about illegal immigrant do you know how many chiness lived in india? how many illegal chiness lived in
europe and usa. do you know how many chiness illegal sell too many illegal hollyhood movie in europe.you talk about hongkong .today hongkong developing by british there is no
credit.

ahmed

May 17, 2009 4:05 AM

hey celestial
you are really fool.one poor country say another poor
if u always tell about illegal immigrant do you know how many chiness lived in india? how many illegal chiness lived in
europe and usa. do you know how many chiness illegal sell too many illegal hollyhood movie in europe.you talk about hongkong .today hongkong developing by british there is no
credit.

The_Observer

June 9, 2009 3:41 AM

In the most recent U.S. National Security Agency-supported challenge run by TopCoder:

Re: http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyName=development&articleId=9134122&taxonomyId=11&intsrc=kc_top

The breakdown of the numbers were as follows:

Initial number of entrants:

894 for China
705 for India
380 for Russia
234 for USA
214 for Poland
145 for Egypt
128 Ukraine
etc

Number of Finalists:

70 in total
20 from China,
10 from Russia
2 from the U.S.
0 from India

"Finalist per entry" ratio (efficiency):

Russia = 0.02632
China = 0.02337
USA = 0.00855
India = 0.00000

The_Observer

June 11, 2009 7:55 PM

My other 2 cents.

Steve mentioned IBM ACM competitions. The results for World Finals 2009 can be found at:

http://cm2prod.baylor.edu/ICPCWiki/Wiki.jsp?page=Results%20World%20Finals%202009

The top fifty places were dominated by Eastern European(many of them Russian), Chinese and USA universities.

The two top teams were:
1. St. Petersburg State University of IT, Mechanics and Optics, Russia and
2. Tsinghua University, China.

Although they both university teams solved 9 problems, the Russians took first place owing to the fact that they took 419 minutes less than the Chinese team.

No Indian university was in the top 50 with Indian Institute of Information Technology and Management and the International Institute of Information Technology - Hyderabad only getting honorable mentions.

the fact

September 16, 2009 5:06 PM

I think if those exames are prepared in Chinese, then chinese programmers can get better results, since in chinese most of programmers do not understand English

Back at The Fact

January 1, 2010 10:32 AM

Wouldn't it be safe to say that programmers of that level would indeed understand English? English IS taught is in all colleges around the world you know.
Besides how did the Chinese get a leg up? Were the other programmers forced to compete in Chinese or something?

saran

March 8, 2010 11:47 PM

Indian programmers are more efficient and less expensive, and there's a tremendous talent pool in India. My personal experience there is no lack of good programmers in India. http://www.securenext.com

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Bloomberg Businessweek’s team of Asia reporters brings you the latest insights on business, politics, technology and culture from some of the world’s biggest and fastest-growing economies.

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