CES Dispatch--Toshiba's HD DVD Response

Posted by: Cliff Edwards on January 6, 2008

I’m in Las Vegas, doing the rounds of press conferences that kick off the annual Consumer Electronics Shows. Everyone lined up early for the most-anticipated one—Toshiba Corp.’s.
If gadgets could look forlorn, Toshiba’s three new HD DVD players looked just that sitting on stage ahead of the executives’ speeches. Jody Sally, vice president of digital audio/visual equipment, which includes Toshiba HD DVD player lineup, looked on the verge of tears during her truncated three-minute presentation in which reports of HD DVD’s sales progress became moot following Warner Brothers decision to exclusively support the rival Blu-ray high definition DVD format later this year.
Sally tried to put on a good game face, though, noting that HD DVD unit sales over the holiday shopping period accounted for 49.3% of the market. What she didn’t note was that the figure would then translate to Blu-ray capturing the majority of sales of standalone players despite heavy Toshiba discounting. And those numbers do not include PlayStation 3 sales.
Industry watchers were abuzz with reports that retailers were seeing heavy return rates on HD DVD players since Christmas after buyers realized many of the movies they wanted were only on Blu-ray.
Sally and Toshiba America President Akio Ozaka remain defiant, saying they continue to believe HD DVD is the best format for consumers.
Unfortunately for them, the content industry appears to think otherwise.

Reader Comments

BetaMax

January 16, 2008 6:40 AM

Is the end in site? Will Blueray finally kill HD DVD? Maybe Sony did learn from the Death of BetaMax.

Now when will i see movies on Solid state disks? I don't want to download movies either! End of day still I want something tangible.

dale

January 16, 2008 6:46 AM

to cliff edwards, being a little slanted aren't we? i doubt if anyone was anticipating taking back a hd-dvd because of poor content. if they did they would take back their blu-ray player too.

robert choo

January 16, 2008 6:55 AM

there is no format war..the consumers r conned by the blu-ray camp...they use big buck to buy the movie moguls who r not in business but money in their pocket not for the benefit of the consumers...they r just to sell movies..so sell movies no matter which camp..consumers will buy...since the format is 1080p/24 for both camp so what r we talking about..blu camp talk about 50g but sell boxset of 3 discs at three times the price..it should be combine into one disc at one disc price but they like to rib off the consumers who r dumb to be ripped off..as everything r more pricez then the hd-dvd toshiba is the consumers at heart in the begining..the consumers should fight back not to buy the blu-ray..just buy dvd..and the toshiba hd-dvd player will give u a very good picture..excelent

Mike Apruzzese

January 16, 2008 8:05 AM

You get what you give.... The Beta (Sony) vs VHS (Toshiba)battle was won by VHS because of software availability. Beta having a higher writing speed was actually the better of the two for quality. This time Sony got it right with signing up the studios in support of Blue-ray. I only hope HD-DVD put's this to bed early and not get the consumer caught up in the "mine is better than yours" fiasco.

John

January 16, 2008 8:06 AM

The content industry doesn't care what's best for consumers. They view all consumers as thieves and are always looking for ways to punish the consumer. What you are seeing in the success or Blu-ray is all of the content producers agreeing that they want the most DRM restricted format they can get. If that was the best for consumers then the music industry wouldn't be switching to DRM free music.

Raymond Sassine

January 16, 2008 8:09 AM

Why would anyone trust the decisions of the media industries since all along they've been trying to do is to impose limits on the activities of our CDs, DVDs, Softwares and the likes?

Whisky

January 16, 2008 8:51 AM

"saying they continue to believe HD DVD is the best format for consumers"

yeah, uh huh, riiiiight..

superdynamite

January 16, 2008 9:12 AM

I feel bad for all the people that were tricked into buying the now Defunked HD-DVD format.

Shame on you Toshiba!

Iconoclast421

January 16, 2008 9:29 AM

Let me try and sum it up for you what happened. HD-DVD is fundamentally superior to blu-ray. The higher capacity of blu-ray is largely irrelevant. What matters is player price, and that is where HD-DVD wins hands down. However, Sony has gone to great length and great expense to subsidize blu-ray through the PS3. The content providers look at the number of PS3's and decide to support that format due to the larger install base of players. This has created a lose-lose-lose scenario. Everybody loses. The consumer loses because if we had settled on HD-DVD, the players would be selling at $49 by now. (If we had settled on blu-ray, the players would be $99 by now). Obviously a $49 player would cause an explosion in sales, much moreso than a $99 player. But for now we get neither. Because Sony subsidized something that was a born loser. (The government does this all the time, and is a big reason why so much money is wasted.) If the content providers actually understood the marketplace, they would definately support HD-DVD, because cheap players drive sales more than anything. But since Sony has a studio and a game system, and since they assume PS3 will be like Ps2, they go with blu-ray. So the consumer loses, and yes the studios will lose money too! And even Sony is still losing money. This is what happens every time a company tries to muscle its way into the market with an inferior product. Blu-ray is most definately an inferior product in terms of cost/features.

Shawn

January 16, 2008 9:36 AM

Wait and see what happens when blu ray fails to update its software and people start to realize they have an inferior product.

Paul

January 16, 2008 9:43 AM

There are plenty of great movies on hd dvd. Overall I would rather have the movies that have come out on hd dvd. Plus you are very much wrong about the standalone players for bluray selling well. The only player that is selling well is the PS3...and most people aren't buying a PS3 for it's bluray player. I don't care who wins in the end bluray or hd dvd. I'm just sick of bluray fanboys like yourself.

Chris

January 16, 2008 9:52 AM

No one really cares about blue-ray and HD DVD. The only thing I like watching in HD is football. Regular DVD's look fine on my HD TV.

I'll wait for Netflix Video TV solution before I buy a Blue-ray player.

jon adams

January 16, 2008 10:04 AM

i think robert choo is a microsoft fanboy. playing with your butthole or sex-box right now?

Consumer

January 16, 2008 10:10 AM

It doesn't take much thinking to see that if Toshiba and HD DVD bites the dust, we all loose.

Competition = innovation as one works to improve his product to pull ahead of the competitor, and competition means prices for both Blu-Ray and HD DVD are kept in check.

dave

January 16, 2008 10:10 AM

Hey Mike....VHS was owned by JVC....not Toshiba.....at least get the argument details correct!

Joe

January 16, 2008 10:12 AM

"robert choo
January 16, 2008 06:55 AM

there is no format war..the consumers r conned by the blu-ray camp...they use big buck to buy the movie moguls who r not in business but money in their pocket not for the benefit of the consumers...they r just to sell movies" I notice you forgot to mention that Microsoft have been paying $100 million per movie to persuade the big companies NOT to release movies in Blu-Ray. Blue ray is the superior format and holds a lot more data the HD Dvd. I'll be glad when the format war is finished.

Nathan

January 16, 2008 10:14 AM

This is going to kill Sony and I am kind of happy about it. Sony backed a more expensive yet inferior and incomplete product. In doing this they put it in their ps/3 (Causing sales to suffer) and is spending millions and millions getting studios to swtich. In the meantime customers don't seem to care either way most being happy with the upscalling they get out of their DVD players. And because there is no one system for customers to buy netflix, cable companies, and the live marketplace will move in and run HD download rentals (On demand) before the market flattens out. Now Sony is left with yet another format that no one supports but them in overly expensive products.

kahukusweet

January 16, 2008 10:19 AM

What is the matter with you Blu-Ray haters?

Paul: Toshiba's own figures report that Blue-Ray outsold HD-DVD in STAND-ALONE sales. That means not including PS#

Iconoclast: If by "inferior" you mean more expensive, your are right. But is a Mercedes inferior to a Geo Metro? HD-DVD's are compressed more than Blu-Ray, therefore, therefore HD-DVD is inferior technically to Blu-Ray -- there's nothing to argue about here.

Kappa

January 16, 2008 10:22 AM

A Clear Sign that HD-DVD was doomed to failure was when they got the backing of Microsoft. APPLE WINS AGAIN.

KAPPA

Sorry2BU

January 16, 2008 10:25 AM

Reading comments here sounds like there's a lot of people that adopted to the loser side, HD-DVD. Look people, just admit that you wasted money on buying HD-DVD player soon to be a dust collector or a nice decoration ornament at home. Suckers!!

EW

January 16, 2008 10:28 AM

It seems that everyone is forgetting about Sony's track record when it comes to customer privacy, confidence and trust.

Who's products installed software on peoples computers without them knowing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Sony_BMG_CD_copy_protection_scandal

Do we really a company to have a monopoly on the HD format for consumers?

Something to think about.

EW

Peter

January 16, 2008 10:35 AM

@Iconoclast421
Your facts seem a little off. I dont go into any electronic store and find $49 regular dvd players right now, why would you see $49 HD-dvd players if there were no argument about format?

Now on to my thoughts...
Why are all the HD-DVD fans mad about what Sony did when they paid off Warner and Fox?
Didnt Toshiba/Microsoft pay off Paramount to go exclusive?
So why is it when Sony does it to kill off competition, people get mad.

If you ask me, the people getting mad are the ones who bought into HD-DVD.

No more discs

January 16, 2008 10:40 AM

Sony and Toshiba have lost their minds. Content delivered through the internet is the way to go. It is coming just as fast as blu-rays hit the stores. And you dont have to go to the store to get a movie from the new apple tv interface, or vudu, or any cable tv on demand feature. Another problem is, most people dont need HD for most movies. Sure you need HD for Transformers. However, my wife doesnt need HD to see Waitress or Little Miss Sunshine.

Tom

January 16, 2008 10:43 AM

There are reports circulating that some of the HD titles, in either HD DVD or Blu Ray formats, are just reformated versions of standard DVD titles. So you need an HD player to view the video, but it's resolution is no better than a standard DVD. So before you invest in the new technology, do some homework and find out if those HD movies you want to buy are just reformatted or really remastered. And it won't say on the package. You have to play it on a HDTV to see for yourself. The same thing is true for some DVD Audio titles, where the package claims Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound, but what's on the disk is no better than 3.1 making the audio experience about the same as a standard CD.

Mark

January 16, 2008 10:44 AM

Anyone see Transformers on Blu Ray? Nope, not available. Sony wasn't the only one working exclusively with movie makers?

See Blu Ray on your PC? Nope, not available (might be now). Only HD DVD. Every tactic Blu Ray has unleashed, HD has done as well. It was an arm wrestling match that Blue won.

And yes competition is good to keep prices in check, but only having access to certain backed movies and not others blows. I'd rather pay a bit more and have access to everything.

Clarence

January 16, 2008 10:45 AM

Damn Mike get it right. VHS wasn't created by Toshiba it was the Victor company of Japan, JVC.

James

January 16, 2008 10:54 AM

Sony is the biggest supporter in name. There is a large group of supporters of blu-ray other than Sony, meaning that Sony is not alone in pushing the blu-ray format. Other major contributers include apple, dell, Mitsubishi, Samsung, Sharp,.... more here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc_Association

The format war is largely over and blue-ray won. People confuse the fact that blu-ray is not equal to only Sony.

Dan A

January 16, 2008 11:01 AM

Sad! It looks like Sony will win. I, for one, will lose. I want to see a movie and price does matter. Blu ray is too expensive. I will try to avoid Sony products now.

Matt

January 16, 2008 11:03 AM

This is not about the "consumer" winning. This is about the studios making an educated guess as to what format would "win". Well, turns out it's a self fulfilling prophecy as Time Warner's decision to go with Blu-Ray exclusively tipped the scales in Blu-Ray's favor.

Blu-Ray is so expensive and so loaded with features that the average consumer will never use (nor know how to use) that to say this is some sort of "win" for the consumer is a joke.

I'm not partial to either format, but I was certainly hoping that the low-entry cost of HD-DVD would at least hold the fort for awile. I guess that hope is gone.

Maybe I'll have to sign up for the Obama campaign and regain hope.

HERO

January 16, 2008 11:05 AM

First this war is pointless. One Sony jumps the gun on blu-ray player to not be two year behind Toshiba. The top sell next gen DVD is blu-ray. Why? The PS3 worldwide has sold 8 million units 3.5 million in the states. Half of which was as a blu-ray since Sony has disappointed the game world marking their biggest loss of 2 billion dollar. HD-DVD fail because of one thing they sale player much cheap but disc much higher than blu-ray when the DVD market is at an all time low. The PS3 is the best blu-ray player. All the people who bought other blu-ray players aren’t dumb but not go consumers a $1000 for a player that can't play the new 1.1 profile disc or the 2.0 profile disc that will be release late this year. Many people say HD-DVD is better than blu-ray your wrong blu-ray is better if you bought a PS3 or wait till the second gen and third gen player come out. Toshiba wasted a lot of money on false hope paying DreamWorks 100 million and WB 50 million just to lose WB and Target as backer of their media. War was over the day the PS3 drop and when Sony didn’t care about dropping billion into their standards for blu-ray. This is all be short will since many companies are lining up for the download and Super HD/Ultra HD war that will started taking place in the next couple of years.

Nate

January 16, 2008 11:06 AM

The only things HD-DVD had over Blu-Ray were things that blu-ray can overcome in a very small amount of time - those things were price and features. The features are coming out as Blu-Ray moves to 2.0. But honestly, features aren't what sells discs, the movies are. The lower price of HD-DVD players should have spurred on that product, but the huge PS3 install base way more than out shines it (over 4:1 last time I looked on wikipedia). The price of blu-ray players are coming down, and really, the only reason HD-DVD players are so cheap now is because of competition from blu-ray. If blu-ray were never around, we'd still be looking at $400+ entry level players for HD-DVD.

Even if there were only one format and its players were $100, it wouldn't increase sales all that much. HD TVs are still the vast minority right now, and even some people who have them don't mind watching DVDs on them.

HD movie downloads are a pipe dream that won't be truly viable for 10 years at least. We just don't have the bandwidth to get a 25 gig movie onto your desktop box fast enough.

I'm glad Blu-Ray is winning because of it's increased storage space. It means that in the future, when games get released on blu-ray, it'll take that much longer for them to be multiple discs, which I hate. It also means that there's generally no reason to put special features on a separate disc for movies too (unless they're crazy long).

smart guy

January 16, 2008 11:07 AM

The fight about DVD format is increasingly relevant. More and more companies are offering online HD movie rental. Why would some one even want to rent a DVD, when you can have same downloaded on your PC/apple tv or a properitary set top box.
It is coming faster than you think. I think people need to layoff high def dvd format.

justin

January 16, 2008 11:08 AM

I will buy an internal hd-dvd when they hit 30 bucks, like 40x dvd burners did a while back.

george

January 16, 2008 11:09 AM

Blu Ray won because it had a more expensive anti-piracy circuit. That greatly appeals to the money makers.

tvbob

January 16, 2008 11:11 AM

Hey, the HD-DVD player up-converts the regular DVD picture to 1080, granted there is not as much data there to begine with but i am truly impressed with it.

Also, movies are not shot with HD cameras so i was never that impressed with the HD-DVD or Blu-Ray picture to begin with. it is certainly not as high def. as HDTV that is broadcast over the air.

Personally, i wont spend extra to get a near high def picuture in either format, i will take them from net flix as available but i wont be spending 30$ for a movie.

I am just as happy watching the regular dvd up-converted by the HD-dvd player on my 70" sony XBR.

i think that the market should decide not a bunch of money grubbin execs. i say release all movies in both formats and let consumers decide which they want.

STruC

January 16, 2008 11:12 AM

NEXT GENERATION: mean's more advanced, more room, better specs. If blu-ray has even 1 bit of higher spec vs hddvd... well... I rather have blu-ray be considered NEXT GEN.

george

January 16, 2008 11:21 AM

Bluray, sony, anti-piracy, bottom line

I-Run-Mass-Retail

January 16, 2008 11:27 AM

Blu-Ray is far from monopolizing the market with hi-def. If that were the case, DVD would have, VHS would have...

Its called fair market price, the retailers distinguish the cost to the consumer. If Blu-Ray is willing to pay me $1000 /wk to have no HD-DVD endcaps so I can slash prices on the TOP SELLING PLAYERS, consumers win, I win, Sony Wins.

Prices for these players will go down as soon as HD-DVD is --OFFICIALLY-- declared dead.

Why? Its then the new standard, slowly (standard) DVD will disappear from the shelf and into car washes and truck stop shelves, and Blu-Ray will fill the aisiles of your local Blockbuster.

Its not milk, its not insulin, its entertainment and people will pay whatever they think is fair to feel that entertainment. Good job America.

but btw... your Blu-Ray isn't complete without a new TV and Digital Home Theater. ;) (Thats also same for HD-DVD)

I traded in my xbox360 a few weeks ago, paid an extra $70 towards the Ps3, not a bad upgrade for Blu-Ray.

Mike Dodge

January 16, 2008 11:28 AM

As a consumer, I don't care which of the two competing formats goes away. I just want one format that all the content suppliers support.

There is still going to be competition. Sony is not the only manufacturer of Blu-ray. Once the format war is finally settled, the competition among the Blu-ray suppliers will drive the price down as production costs decrease.

Dreacon

January 16, 2008 11:30 AM

My main problem with blue ray is the inability to upgrade specs via firmware. If you have a 1.0 player it wont play all content on a 1.1 disc and so on. Very poor design

John

January 16, 2008 11:31 AM

BD is a more expensive product FOR THE CONSUMER. Where do you think all the royalty fees for both discs and players will be kicked down to?? What about all the 1st and 2nd gen BD players...can't be updated. HD-DVD came out with all the features BD JUST came out with. HD-DVD uses a much better codec VC-1 than BD (which supports VC-1 but does not use it). For HD-DVD, the players are cheaper (are better at upscaling, too), the discs are cheaper and looks better! (I'm a audiophile/videophile so yes, I do notice.) I will support HD-DVD. If that fails...I'll wait for HVD's.

Colin

January 16, 2008 11:36 AM

Nathan - How is this going to kill Sony? Every movie studio is going to them and their product, this in turn makes them stronger, not weaker. Not to mention this: "Now Sony is left with yet another format that no one supports but them in overly expensive products." Except EVERY movie studio except for one right now, and as for cost. HD-DVD was driving sales by practically dumping all profit to try and sway the public, but guess what people like Blu-Ray better, otherwise they wouldn't buy it.

PS3 sales will continue to increase and increase and Blu-Ray will profit in the end. The point everyone is missing right now is that the studios aren't looking at a customer base, they are looking at security and BD+ has not been cracked, at least not yet. HD-DVD was cracked within a month of release and it's because all they did was slightly modify the security system that DVD's use.

Now this whole HD argument is about movies. It doesn't so much matter right now. The only movies that look better are ones that were filmed in HD, like Transformers. But I watched The Fugitive on my buddy's HD-DVD player, the actual HD-DVD, and it looked no better than a standard DVD. I assume blu-ray will look the same.

* Just for the record I do not own either HDDVD or Blu-Ray but I have watched more HD-DVD. They have cool features, but Blu-Ray logically will win this battle with support on all sides. *

Don't Care

January 16, 2008 11:38 AM

I am so tired of this conversation. Until movies come out in only the new format, I won't switch. when did aouto makers decide to replace the tape deck in cars for the CD palyer? In mass, people will not adpot this new format quickly and I believe that the lower cost of online movie downloads will ultimately win the war. Think about manufacturing and distribution costs alone. If the day the move came out in a tangeable format, you could go to your TV and get it on demand for a fraction of the cost, why would you waste your time buying a player, and the media?

Just grab your popcorn and enjoy!!!

Fernando

January 16, 2008 11:39 AM

Sorry2bu;

Fact. Sony is desperate. Like most desperate corporations they result in buying their way into the game.

Fact. HD-DVD Players have an advantage pricewise. Who in their right mind would spend over $300 for a system that is identical to one that sells for $130.00?

Fact. An Educated consumer is Sony's worst enemy. I will purchase or rent standard DVD's when not available in the HD Format. If other take this aproach (and I'm sure they will) the studios and Sony stand to loose millions if not billions.

This is exactly how Sony abuses the consumer. Don't lower prices on units, and buy out the competition. The result could almost be called manopolizing the market. Sounds like communism to me.

J

January 16, 2008 11:42 AM

whats the difference? in a year they both will be obsolete

Ed

January 16, 2008 11:43 AM

Yawn... I bought an HD-DVD player to replace my DVD player when it died.

Now I have a nice cheap upscaling DVD player. If a movie's available on HD-DVD then fine, if not, my player upscales DVD quite nicely to the size of my HDTV.

I'm not going to buy anything new until the dual format players come out and drop in price.

Frankly, if you don't have an upscaling DVD player just snag one of the cheap HD-DVD players with all the 10 free discs and you'll have an upscaling DVD player for free. Blu-ray versus HD-DVD is irrelevant for people with a grasp of reality. Haven't seen any good movies yet that didn't also come out in DVD format along with a hi-def format.

John

January 16, 2008 11:52 AM

With respect to the comment that was made:

"Your facts seem a little off. I dont go into any electronic store and find $49 regular dvd players right now, why would you see $49 HD-dvd players if there were no argument about format?"

.. I don't know about some places, but where I live (Western Canada), there are many places (Wal Mart, Superstore, etc) that have regular dvd players priced at 19.99 or 24.99 . . . I think that what the original poster referred to was the possibility that the least expensive of the HD-DVD players (without the fight going on) COULD be around 49.99.. I would think they would be with regular ones becoming available for 19.99.

Just my thoughts though :)

Bill

January 16, 2008 11:53 AM

The format war is largely irrelevant. HD movies would fit an a standard dual layer DVD just fine, if only they would use h264 encoding, and not duplicate the movie two or three times. I have about 1500 DVD's in my movie collection, and you can bet I am not about to go out and replace them anytime soon. In fact just the opposite, I have been ripping them all to AVI's so I can play them from hard disk. I really hate optical media, it is so easy to damage. Just a small finger print, and your favorite movie won't play. Just a particle of dust, and your disc is scratched while you are trying to cleaning. Just leave the disc on the shelf a few years, and the layers start to separate.

No. What we need is a reliable format, that can be easily backed up.

Bill

Paul

January 16, 2008 12:00 PM

kahukusweet:
Actually hd dvd players are 50% of the market right now. The only decent selling bluray is the PS3. That's it no others. Get some info before you talk dbag

Rudy

January 16, 2008 12:01 PM

Mark,
When you buy a Dell online you get the option of a Blue ray combo drive.

JesusChrist

January 16, 2008 12:02 PM

All I care about is when will everything become standard and when will blank disks become cheap.

Blu-ray is already cracked and soon I will have my library replaced with HD copies. I refuse to buy all of my DVD's again on Blu-ray (or even HD DVD). Rip and burn

rodney

January 16, 2008 12:09 PM

Mark,

Dell has offered the option to put BD drives in computers for quite a while, so has alienware. In fact the only company that puts HDdvd in a computer is HP.

o-matic

January 16, 2008 12:13 PM

the storage space subject is interesting. 50gb on a blu ray disc? Compared to 30gb on the HD disc? Does anyone know for a fact that sony is converting movies to h-def and actually using all this space? I hardly doubt that the movies so far that have been released are even over 25-30gb in size. If that is the case, then does it really matter if blu ray puts out a movie on a 50gb disc? Just wondering?

Same wwith HD..if 30gb is the max then movies should be around 20-25 gb in size without all the extra features and goodies that are included.

Justin

January 16, 2008 12:15 PM

Although unfortunate, Blu Ray will win. The muscle they are using to squeeze out HDDVD is too strong. Toshiba has developed a format without the digital restrictions of Blu Ray and from day one has had a set of standards that the HD Players must conform to. Sony has changed the standards for their players time and time again. The first Blu Ray standard didn't even include Internet connectivity. Sony is just forcing itself on the market with an inferior market. I don't own either player so don't say that I am just mad because I bought a product that will collect dust someday. I am mad because Toshiba feels like the little kid on the playground that gets picked on by the big fat bully. Although Toshiba has a superior format, Sony insists on not losing another Beta-VHS battle (but this time, Sony truly has an inferior product). If everyone would just look at the facts we could support HDDVD because it is the better format. I feel bad for Toshiba. Everyone just takes Sony's side because of the fat kickbacks they get for being exclusive. Wake up people. HDDVD is the better format... It's just too bad nobody looks at the facts...

Peter

January 16, 2008 12:39 PM

@ John

You may find dvd players for 19.99 at walmart, but you know what.... I DONT want a POS apex player sitting next to my 46" HDTV.
Whats the point of buying a high end HDTV if you are gonna skimp on the other components in your system.
All this bitching is because people are buying cheap HDTVs from walmart and bestbuy and think they are "I have an HDTV, I matter". If they are gonna skimp on the tv, of course they will skimp on components.
Bluray just gambled and won 75 percent of the market. Soon all the studios will produce bluray.

why i am even reading this

January 16, 2008 12:49 PM

if paying that much for a tv then you would surly pay for a better tv.

All people complaining about price tell how much was a brand new hi-fi vcr back in the day?
Tell me how much was a brand new dvd player when first introduced?

everything is costly when introduced!!!

AC

January 16, 2008 12:51 PM

So with the 1080P media war finally over, who loses?

Microsoft.

Microsoft consistently pumped money into the HD-DVD forum.. at least $150 million. That's enough to get what Microsoft wanted... a stalemate.

A stalemate of HD media means that WMV-HD DOWNLOADS begin to look more attractive.

I agree with some that downloads are the future... but that seems far off with Comcast port-blocking and download schemes tied to Microsoft's grace not to pull the plug (just ask a former user of the legit Napster service, what's happened to their collection of WMA audio... or any "Plays For Sure" hardware device, lol).

The HD folks split off from the BluRay forum as their own mistake. Furthermore they tried to paint HD-DVD vs BluRay as an extension of XBox360 vs PS3 (but WHY? The XB360 can't handle anything bigger than a DVD disc..)

Me? I bought a PS3 for the BluRay and media center capability... I have ONE PS3 game, Clank & Ratchet. I might get others here and there, but I already have 10 BluRay movies... so the HD-DVD folks can stop saying PS3 folks don't buy or rent movies..

Mike

January 16, 2008 12:53 PM

There are a lot of uninformed comments here. Robert Choo made an especially poor one. If price is the main concern when making a purchase then quality is not. If technical specs (capacity) mean less than bonus features (things other than the movie itself) then you as a consumer make what are called "poor decisions". I suggest you get a happy meal at McDonald's. You get a cheap meal that's bad for you and it comes with a toy!

Nate

January 16, 2008 12:55 PM

Paul - I don't care how many players are out there. The only thing that matters to the movie studios is disc sales, and blu-ray disc sales have been almost double those of HD-DVD for the past year.

For those that think upscaled DVDs are fine, and think they don't see any difference in HD content... the HD you see on networks is not the HD you see coming out of a HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player. The network content is extremely compressed and loses a lot of the fidelity that makes HD look so great. Pop in an HD disc and you'll be blown away.

For those that said most movies aren't shot in HD... actually, most movies have been shot with analog film cameras and then transferred to a digital formats on DVD. The quality of the original film is way higher than DVD's quality... how do you think they show it on 50' movies screens in the theater? When done right, the transfer to HD will maintain all that great video fidelity.

Finally... don't think the $100 HD-DVD players are equivalent to the $400 blu-ray versions. The $100 ones don't even do 1080p, they only do 720. It might not matter to some people, but many more affordable 1080p TVs are hitting the market, and it makes a difference to those people (like myself). The $200 HD-DVD player is the cheapest one they have that can output 1080p.

mark

January 16, 2008 1:04 PM

Blu Ray wins!

YAY!

Aaron Moore

January 16, 2008 1:12 PM

The comment that Sony/BluRay is desperate above is a laugh! There are blind supporters that believe anything. It is obvious, with the majority of studios supporting BluRay and smaller players following suit one after another into the BluRay camp these last few weeks, that BluRay is winning. Movie purchases support it as well - retailers are starting to drop even carrying HD DVD. Countries (other than the US) are 95%+ BluRay already. The Japan figures were something like 98% purchases BluRay vs. HD DVD.

For good or bad BluRay has won the war. HD DVD may still sell players to those using them primarily as DVD players with upconversion...but it will eventually become no different than buying a standard DVD player with upconversion (except for collectors such as 8-track afficianados who don't mind searching for a few titles to view).

Overall, this is a good result. One standard that holds higher capacity and will enable higher read/write times through lower compression ratios and data depth closer to the surface of the disk. The anti-scratch coating is also an improvement over DVD that was long needed but not adopted by HD DVD. Sometimes the better product does win!

Aaron Moore

January 16, 2008 1:20 PM

O-Matic, high def movies are not everything when considering improving a format. The 30gb HD DVD vs. 50gb BluRay makes a big difference when talking software and media used for storage. Additionally, DVD media for backup storage has had the problem of being easily scratched. Blu-Ray keeps backup material at a more secure level with their hard anti-scratch coating. When relying on a media format to back-up digital photos (as most cameras have gone to) wouldn't you rather have greater storage capacity and better data protection against damage? Computing also benefits from faster read/write times. With less compression and data closer to the disk surface and less foggy/scratchy surface, Blu-ray drives will be pushed much faster than the older "deep in the soft unprotected plastic" format used by both DVD and HD DVD. In essence, HD DVD is not really an improvement in media just an improvement in reading software/hardware and compression.

ExpertUser

January 16, 2008 1:24 PM

First off, the numbers on sales do indeed reflect both giveaways and unit buy ins (PS3). Don't be fooled. The same is true of movie sales, where in HDDVD movie sales include a lot of freebies (and the BR some too).

HD-DVD is the superior format from an economics standpoint. Both are equal in IQ (a rather subjective thing ultimately no matter the objective measure you try and apply) while HD-DVD is slightly better on audio. HD-DVD involves far less DRM (which right there makes it the immediate winner to anyone with half a brain). HD-DVD is cheaper to produce at every point in the supply to consumer chain; the discs are cheaper (and greener) to make using existing plants, replication facilities do not have to essentially replace the bulk of their equipment as with BR but rather just update some equipment and replace little things, and HDDVD licensing is cheaper, and the hardware is also cheaper and future higher density formats currently being proofed are built on existing laser tech and not BR tech to boot.

Another point to bear in mind is that most PS3 users (and 360 users) do NOT use their console as their movie player... and those that do suffer higher wear out/breakage rates and ultimately higher costs in the long run... so sales penetration numbers which include those sales are DUMB and misleading.

Ted

January 16, 2008 1:26 PM

The main movie stream on a Blu-Ray disk is typically 33% larger than the size of an HD-DVD disk (based on the disks I own). Don't be fooled by 1080p, bit rate is also important. Can't wait for HD-DVD to die. For me, need large disk for server backup and don't want to get stuck with 25G disks because of the movie industry. All of this is just contrived nonsense in order to make a buck!

anonymous

January 16, 2008 1:32 PM

The only thing which makes HDDVD better than BluRay is the manufacturing process of the discs is cheaper thats all, Bluray has much higher capacity, and can support more layers resulting in a huge advantage. It's kind of a blessing it happens now and not 2 or 3 years from now when all of us have a half decent collection of discs and drives etc.... Also some one made a comment about no BluRay for PC where has he been? The first writer was a BluRay writer from Pioneer a few years back, but a several thousand bucks it wasn't mainstream but it was first. I really thought we would eventually start seeing hybrid players because NEC developed a chip which could decode either format, that would have been a winning solution for all us. So the battle of the formats is once again over, this time sony scores a point.

Jason

January 16, 2008 1:34 PM

Seriously people. Who REALLY cares? The big corps should care. Consumers shouldn't worry about it. If you can afford blu, then buy it and enjoy it. It's a great product. If you can't or DON'T think it's a great product, then don't buy it, and continue to watch DVD's. They still look great on an HDTV or Wait about 6-12 months when prices come down or wait a bit longer for everything to get ironed out via downloading movies, etc. Quit trying to argue about the market and competition and what's best for everyone. And if you still are a little tool who can't stop arguing about how bad blu is, then let's go out back, I'll kick you in the nuts and we'll call it a day. Blu won, HDDVD lost. End of story.

Leo

January 16, 2008 1:35 PM

Who cares who the "winner" is and who the "loser" is? It's not about "superior" or "inferior". It's all about the money: How much money are consumers willing to spend and how much money manufacturers want to make. The market has been flooded with inferior products in the past, but that has never stopped consumers from buying the products. All we can do is wait and see how the "war" ends. Regardless, people will still spend their money on whatever the next gen technology will be, and in the end, that's all that matters to ANY corporation.

Louis

January 16, 2008 1:40 PM

Hey nimrods, who keeps arguing that HDDVD is the BETTER product? You're stupid. First of all none of you are media experts, so don't pretend. Toshiba's stupid players are cheap because they only display at 1080i. You gotta pay more bucks for the 1080p player. Who's trying screwing who by trying to bully into the market with cheap prices? Yes, that's right Toshiba, and they still lost. Both formats are the same, that's why this is a market war. If one was ACTUALLY better, it would be reported on, published, talked about, etc. and the crappier product would have already lost. Basic logic you HDDVD tools. Hey, you're not the sharpest tool in the shed, but you're still a tool.

Techno

January 16, 2008 1:44 PM

Oh boy! I cant' wait for the new HD LaserDisc. format wars.

J.D.

January 16, 2008 2:03 PM

If anyone has any intelligence, they would simply refuse to buy either blu-ray or hd/dvd until the dust settles and the format war is over. If sales simply stopped for both, I guarantee it wouldn't take very long for hd/dvd to capture the market. But since the movie studios and player/format manufacturers are obviously in bed with one another, it is definitely a lose-lose situation for the consumer. I say screw them all and refuse to be swayed by the format wars heavy handed propaganda that will surely come about in the very near future.

Don't buy either, just let them (player manufacturers) settle the dispute in bankruptcy court. LOL

Paul

January 16, 2008 2:05 PM

Player price has little to do with it. What's that point in a $100 HD-DVD player when a decent HDTV costs $2000+, reasonable speakers $700+ and even an acceptable receiver doesn't enter the game below $500.

Storage capacity and transfer rates are everything when you want the best quality. It means less compression, which translates into better picture and sound.

Tom

January 16, 2008 2:07 PM

The Xbox360 is a piece of junk because of its 3 red lights issue. Maybe if the 360 would last longer than 6 months to a year HDDVD's would have had a chance.

Xbox360 + HDDVD Player = BIG POS

Whats sad is that I am a MSFT stock holder.

Don

January 16, 2008 2:09 PM

I am amazed at the sheer stupidity on these post. One saying they are all 1080p but HD-DVD is cheaper. Wrong HD-DVD 1080p players are the same price as blu-ray players. Now someone said that players would be $49 by now. You can't even get a good upconvert cheaper then $80 and they have no compitition. Keyword being good upconvert. HD-DVD is not a superior format. It like blu-ray holds data. They both support the same standards except Blu-ray has a different software for it's menus. If a format is to succeed and makes it way to computers why not the format that holds the most data. Someone wrote that only Sony supports Blu-Ray. Lets look at teh numbers. 75% of the studio support. All of the home hardware support except Toshiba even though Toshiba supplies all cell processors for the PS3. Most of the computer support. Oh by the way 75% of all European movie sales were blu-ray and it's been the indusrty IT backup standard since 2003. Know your facts before you spout stupidity on an article. Oh and as far as Sony losing money supporting Blu-Ray, they get royalty fees from every blu-ray purchased.

Chris

January 16, 2008 2:17 PM

Sony: PROS - More robust DRM. Larger installed base of users. Larger capacity discs. CONS - Higher cost discs and players. Still evolving standards. Tyranical (Consumer hostile) tendancies. The studios must have thought the additional cost of Blu-ray products were justified by the more robust DRM. In time (a couple of years) the cost difference would have been much less and the standards would have solidified. I don't care for Sony, but they won. Let's all just accept it and move on.

Chris

January 16, 2008 2:17 PM

Sony: PROS - More robust DRM. Larger installed base of users. Larger capacity discs. CONS - Higher cost discs and players. Still evolving standards. Tyranical (Consumer hostile) tendancies. The studios must have thought the additional cost of Blu-ray products were justified by the more robust DRM. In time (a couple of years) the cost difference would have been much less and the standards would have solidified. I don't care for Sony, but they won. Let's all just accept it and move on.

James

January 16, 2008 2:18 PM

"Wake up people. HDDVD is the better format... It's just too bad nobody looks at the facts..." ???

I would like to know how HDDVD is a better format. Please let me know what makes it superior to Blu-Ray.
Cost- HD wins
Movies - BluRay wins
Capacity - BluRay wins

Most people care about what movies are available on a player. If they lost the movie studios, the please tell me what the point of owning a HD player is. I understand the players are cheaper but I paid nothing for my bluray when I bought my ps3 for games. My xbox360 wants to charge me extra to have an included HD player that almost none of the movies I want are available on.

Josh

January 16, 2008 2:29 PM

The disc size only matters because Blu Ray uses MPEG 2 encoding, HD DVD uses MPEG 4 encoding, the picture quality is the same on both 1080p/24 which means they have the same quality picture. Blu Ray just uses more room to place movies do to the poor compression that MPEG 2 provides for HD content. By the way MPEG 2 is what regular DVD's are encoded in. For my money I thought that HD DVD was going to be the better buy because of the affordablity factor. Oh and one last thing for the Blu Ray people. Thank HD DVD for the Interactivity the the 2.0 players are providing, HDDVD has always had this. I can hook my 100 dollar HD DVD player to the internet using ethernet cable and get firm ware updates and interact with my movies, yes the same interaction that Disney is now tauting as there own contribution to HD content.

Scott Bowen

January 16, 2008 2:36 PM

Hi. I see this is a touchy subject for all.

First off I would just like to say I am from western Canada and I can not find $20-30 DVD players (maybe one at Wal-Mart but if you buy it it’s your own fault cause it will break) so that is just a comment by someone for the sake of commenting. And the cheapest HD player I have found was $150 but they told me I would not want to buy it also to note the cheapest HD player at Future shop was $250 not to cheap if you ask me.

As far as storage goes the more room on blue ray will help, but HDDVD was going to come out with dual layer which would have made that a moot point.

Copy protection would be put on HDDVD regardless of whether or not it came standard at least with bluray the format will work in every player and computer.

HDDVD has dropped there price so much to entice consumers that it would have raised if they had won and blue ray will drop just like any other tech. So they would end up the same price.

Which format is better well that seems to depend on who you ask but there pretty much the same (Except the whole 1.0-2.0 BR ordeal). And as far as people saying Sony did this and there a bad corporation (Please remember all corporations are bad) Sony is not the only corporate backer of blue ray and there shifty ways are no worse than Toshiba and the HDDVD backers. Well now none of this has helped and I for one will not bother with any of these. My hockey feed from cable on my TV looks great I can see the puck and find no reason to buy into any of this. But god some of you people are crazy.

Sorry about the rant it is just that it seems people pick a side than see nothing else, both have there bonuses and faults hopefully soon blu-ray backers will pay off HD-DVD (yes that’s how it works) and both techs will be merged. Win-win-win as some one earlier put it. Have a good Wednsday.

David

January 16, 2008 2:46 PM

Lest anyone forget the main ingredient here that was missing in VHS vs BETA: Sony is only now a major producer, licensor, owner or CONTENT!

Chris

January 16, 2008 2:50 PM

Cheap players do not drive sales as the availability of good movies in the format. That's part of the reason why VHS won out over Beta.

You're all idiots, by the way.

Bob

January 16, 2008 2:59 PM

I agree with Justin's comments and would add that people won't be jumping to buy a BD player anytime soon unless they either want the new PS3 or the BD standalone players drop significantly in price. Looking at the recent news about the recent drop in overall sales this last Christmas, it appears that consumers are now being very cautious of any high-end purchases, not just homes and autos. If you just have to try the hi-def waters, your best buy right now is HD DVD where entry-level machines are only about $130. With the 7 free movies deals included, its like getting a free player which will upconvert your standard DVDs as well.

HD DVD may appear to be losing the format war, but with a surge in players sales Warner could reconsider its position. Don't let a corporation decide what format you should buy...VOTE WITH YOUR WALLET!

Chris

January 16, 2008 3:00 PM

I think both formats suck and disks in a reasonable world would be gone making way for flash drives as they have higher read/write speeds and can hold more than either. However this would only make piracy easier and since our country is controlled by corperations HD DVD/Blu-Ray ftw, us ftl :/

Eric Payne

January 16, 2008 3:00 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_high_definition_optical_disc_formats#Technical_details

^^
Anyone who says that HD-DVD has the technically superior format is just plain wrong. The only places that HD-DVD has a leg up is in the Dolby Digital+ codec and Region Coding.

Most anyone who purchases an HD disc is going to have a decoder capable of outputting DD5.1, so that advantage is shot.

That leaves the Region Coding. While I like the idea of playing videos from Asia (I'm into Anime) it is not a necessity. In fact, the vast majority of consumers never have and never are going to import a movie. So this advantage really only applies to hardcore movie enthusiasts who want to watch every movie made and weeaboo.

The only other "advantage" HD-DVD has is a more easily cracked copy protection scheme. Again, this doesn't mean anything for the vast majority of people; the majority of people who are worried about the ability to play their movies are more likely to just take care of their movies, as opposed to make backups. I'm not saying there aren't people out their who like to keep backups in case their disc gets busted somehow, but most of the people who kick up a fuss about this are people who want to rent a movie, rip it and return it. Pirates.

And drop it with the "Sony keeps changing their standard" crap. They have meaningfully changed the standard one time. A second change came with the internet capability, but frankly, that's not really necessary. How many people actually that? Most people just watch the movie, the deleted scenes and maybe a making of.

The DVD standard did the exact same thing in the beginning. And the original DVD players didn't allow upgrading. These things happen, get over it.

And, "Paul", the 49.3% numbers that Toshiba mentioned are stand alone players. HD-DVD and BluRay Stand Alone Players. In November, the North American HDDVD Promotional Group said that 750,000 HD-DVD players had been sold, including the Xbox360 add on. An estimated 100,000 of those are 360 add ons. So, you have 650,000 stand alone HD-DVD players.

At those percentages, that leaves BluRay with about 668,000 (rounded down) stand alones sold. Add to that the PS3 sales, estimated at 687,000 units in North America and you have 1.355 MILLION BluRay Players in North America compared to a paltry 750,000 HD-DVD players.

Sooo...how is HD-DVD outselling BluRay? And, Paul, try not to call me names, I did my research on those numbers.

tl;dr: BluRay is technically superior, outselling HD-DVD by a long shot.

Terry

January 16, 2008 3:01 PM

Both hddvd and blue-ray lose. They missed their window with there prolonged format war. People will be downloading movies to watch.

Josh

January 16, 2008 3:01 PM

here is a good article on the Toshibias new marketing plan (http://www.foxbusiness.com/article/toshiba-deploys-new-hd-dvd-marketing-initiatives-based-strong-fourth-quarter_434174_1.html), this articles facts are incorrect. HD DVD sold 49.3 percent of the Total DVD Stand Alone Player market not just the High Def market. Which means DVD and Blu Ray shared the other 50%, Warner Bros is the company that screwed consumers not Toshiba or Sony. They waited till after Christmas to announce. If they would have done this before christmas people wouldn't have went out and wasted money on the HD DVD players. That obviously a majority of the US market preffered during the 4th quarter. And accompany that info with the info that the week before WB announced that they were going to Blu Ray, the Harry Potter movie sold more HD DVD units then it did Blu Ray units.

sinhealer

January 16, 2008 3:07 PM

As an average consumer I purchased a HD DVD player based on price. I fell for the 5 free movie trick...which was before Christmas...and I still dont have the darn movies. I have not purchased a HD DVD movie once I realized that Blu Ray was going to be the standard and I probably will not purchase another HD DVD player of any format because it seems that downloading HD movies in upon us....so...they both will suffer defeat...

CzechMate

January 16, 2008 3:08 PM

Despite all the negativity from both sides I have to say that I am disappointed. I bought HD-DVD player when I bought my flat screen TV and it came at a very low price. The Blueray option would have been twice as much. Now I feel a bit stupid for putting my bets on the wrong horse. The player upscales well, but let's face it - down the line I will have to replace it with Blueray. I am gald I have started buying too many films and rather rented HD-DVDs.

Tim

January 16, 2008 3:08 PM

Why does everyone think digital downloads are taking over so quickly? It will be a while... humans are materialistic by nature. They want to hold something, like a disk. They want portablility for things they own.

Plus until broadband speeds allow you to get a full movie (with little compression and bonus material like artwork/extras) in less than a minute, it will not take off. For rentals, sure. For people to buy? No. People want to own things, period.

Bluray holds more, so it is better for data/game/movie usage. Thus, the better format overall. More expensive, but all tech is at first... prices come down. Plus it just sounds cool... "blueray". Rolls off the tongue. An overlooked aspect of the clunky sounding "HD-DVD" marketing plan.

When flash drives are 50GB and storage media is cheap and in the peta-range and broadband is way faster... THEN you open the door for digital download movies to OWN. Until then, it will only take over the rental market, thus leaving the door open to Bluray for HD movie purchases.

Travis

January 16, 2008 3:09 PM

I hope HD-DVD can make some kind of comeback. I dont think anyone is paying attention to Sony, and we are going to end up paying for it in the end. For decades now, Sony has made 100% proprietary parts and accessories. You can still see this on the Sony Memorystick, you will pay two times more than a Memorystick card than a secure digital. If sony wins this war, your going to see nothing but sony proprietary blu-ray parts that are over priced, not to mention all blu-ray movies will stay at the same price for a long time. Ive currently got a HD-DVD player and Im hoping the best for toshiba.

Roger

January 16, 2008 3:09 PM

What is apalling to me is the same scenario is playing out again that happened when VHS and BetaMax fought it out during the video tape format wars. As it was then and appears to be happening now, the stupid consumers continue to show that they care nothing about quality since BluRay will have more compression than HD-DVD. Idiots who champion BluRay are completely clueless because what they are supporting DEGRADES the quality of the picture that you will see on your TV by compressing the movies too much.

Dave

January 16, 2008 3:21 PM

It's not important who 'wins' - HDDVD or Blu Ray. It's just important that *someone* wins, so that consumers and the industry can move forward.

I do feel sorry for all the folks who bought HDDVD's - they really took it up the yang.

Wesley

January 16, 2008 3:24 PM

HD-DVD supporters, keep telling youselves that "HD-DVD is the better format". It will help you sleep at night.

Peter

January 16, 2008 3:25 PM

Gee a lot of these anti-sony posts seem to contain the same mis-information over and over.

When it comes to actually playing movies which are about the same price from each side, they looks and sound essentially identical. There is no real strong technical argument for either side. They also each support AACS copy protection. The biggest difference is the greater capacity of the Blu Ray disks.

As far is HD-DVD players being cheaper, well so were betamax in the final days. Toshiba is subsidizing the players, much like sony does with the PS3.

But no one is subsidizing other Blu Ray players, that is why many companies are building Blu Ray and just about only Toshiba building HD-DVD players. Look at all the new Blu Ray players at CES.

Toshiba is betamaxing this time by going it alone against team Blu Ray. HD-DVD going under because Blu has multi-vendor support on studios and overlooked in all the press, the other hardware companies (Pioneer, Samsung, Panasonic, Philips, Sony,LG, Mitsubishi, Hitachi, etc..) were all showing Blu Ray players. Who was showing HD-DVD?

HD-DVD is dead and the net is experiencing the hissy fit of disgruntled forum fanboys.

James

January 16, 2008 3:45 PM

All I want is to watch movies, not own them. Every movie I ever bought is sitting in a drawer or on a shelf basically unused. I am waiting for NETFLIX set top box which I will place in the area the unused VHS tape machine now occupies.

Greg

January 16, 2008 3:57 PM

Bottom line for me is that HDDVD can play regular DVDs at near-HD quality. SO I'll wait for prices to drop on HDDVDs and pick one up cheaply. I have no interest in a blu-ray. They have too much copy-protection junk built into them.

Ken

January 16, 2008 3:57 PM

I don't really care. I own both the PS3 and the 360 with HD-DVD. I tend to prefer the HD-DVDs but I guess either way will work. I don't see either one as "better for the consumer", regardless of what happens we will all still be watching the same movies and either format will produce about the same quality and the actual disk will end up costing about the same either way.

thrakazog

January 16, 2008 4:11 PM

I read that sony had to pay warner 500 million to go with blu-ray. Article here: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08012/848675-96.stm

It cost so much more all around that they have to bribe the studios to use it. Not the right choice if you ask me.

Also, why the heck does anyone care if there is a winner? Competition drives industry. It's not like anyone is saying i'm not going to buy a xbox360 or PS3 or wii until i see who the clear winner is. Just pick the one you like and be happy with it. Nobody succeeds just by ruining the competition.

Will

January 16, 2008 4:37 PM

I cant beleive how many ignorant comments there are in this thread...

First off...neither Blu-Ray or HD-DVD is even moderately superior to the other format. Get over it.

If I hear one more person say that downloads will replace HD...

A. You honestly think people will d/l 50g movies? Who has the storage space for that, or would pay far more than a disk player for the storage capacity? And so d/l hd content will be trimmed down to 1080i with heavier compression and quality loss. Might as well rip the "P" off of my 1080p tv. I'd rather play upscaled DVD's as it would be the same quality.

B. How many people honestly have a computer connected to their tv, or are going to pay the same price for a device that downloads movies to their tv as it would cost for a blu-ray player?

C. It's called on-demand, it's called pay-per-view. People already have it. And for some reason that pesky "dvd" format hasn't gone away...Movie store rentals/Net Flix easily beat on-demand/pay-per-view rentals. Maybe in the future these services will expand to include, say, more than 30 different movie selections a month. I'm willing to bet that won't happen until after the lifespan of the HD disk.

It's obvious who owns what in this thread. People with no HD want to argue that they can't see what all the fuss is about and movie d/l and blah blah. People who bought the HD-DVD say Sony is the big evil corporation, even though Toshiba was the one who paid out 150 million to Paramount, and the Blu-Ray camp is quickly becoming a smug, elitist Apple Macintosh crowd.

Proprietary sucks, we all lose. But we don't lose as much as when two proprietary technologies were competing by splitting the movie studios and available content. You can say that competition is in favor of the customers...but the battle between blu-ray vs hd-dvd was not. The exclusitivity of movie titles killed it. What will be great is when Panasonic's Blu-ray player is in competition with Sony's blu-ray player, which is competition with Samsung...etc. Dont think that 3 years from now Toshiba won't be making blu-ray players...

Sit back and think for a whole 2 minutes instead of just rattling on about the product you already own.

richard

January 16, 2008 4:46 PM

It seems to me that many of the comments miss the real hidden loser here.

Microsoft.

For a number of years now Microsoft has courted the entertainment/video industry to adopt their products as standards. The VC-1 codec is a variation of the Windows Media product, and it is very good. They even gave up the source code to get it accepted. And for a while, the better encoding, whether HD DVD or Blu-ray was generally on VC-1.

That has begun to shift though - I was speaking with someone at Sony DADC - (the replication house of millions of DVD/ Blu-ray discs)and he said that over 70% of the titles that will be released in the Q1-Q2 period are now H264. This won't have any material effect on revenue for MS, but, the trend is not good, as their standard gets replaced by open source, multi party development...again.

Next, many of the features implemented by Microsoft in HD DVD are quite nice - I think most unbiased people would say it's easier to use than BD.

Again though, as someone earlier pointed out, being first out of the gate doesn't mean you will end up with the best product. It takes a lot of time and effort to get so many companies to agree on a path forward - hence the slow updates and standards changes in BD.

To be fair, it is also about trying to keep the out-the-door price within range of HD DVD, so some of the advanced features didn't make it in earlier revisions.

If BD "wins" this format war, we will all end up with a data disc that can support 50GB of storage in it's current form, and probably 100GB in the fairly short future. That's great news for companies that need to store lots of data, video houses that also have lots of data, and the average consumer who wants to be entertained.

We'll have a format supported by many manufacturers of consumer and computer products that will cause a general replacement of equipment as current DVD players wear out.

Oh, and Toshiba? Sure, this hurts when you've invested so much in a good idea and worked hard, but they will survive. And probably build some of the better BD players when they get on with it.....

dekan

January 16, 2008 4:47 PM

After a few hundred failed attempts, sony might have a standard.

R.I.P.
Sony Beta
Sony Mini-Disc
Sony Dynamic Digital Sound
Sony Multi-Media Compact Disc
Sony Music Clip
Sony HiFD
Sony Super Audio CD
Sony PSP
Sony MicroMV

whew! my fingers are getting tired...

Bill

January 16, 2008 5:07 PM

I haven't read this entire thread, but I have yet to see anyone argue that the true competition benefit should go to Blu Ray. Aren't there many more hardware manufacturers to compete on that format? With HDDVD isn't it basically just Toshiba? Granted, HD has the better prices for now, but won't Blu Ray competitors act to improve their product while bringing down prices when the dust clears?
BTW I do not own either HD format and have basically refused to buy any movie DVD's for more than a year because I don't want to add to my library with either an inferior product or one that will be obsolete or unavailable. I once owned a Betamax.

bill

January 16, 2008 5:25 PM

Sony has been behind most losing format wars. They always seem to have the need to come up with a proprietary format.

Beta-Max
Mini Disk
Digital Super 8 Camcorders
Memory Stick

All losing unsupported formats. The consumer and software makers are the big losers, if there was one unified format from the start you would see much greater penetration by now.

international rip off

January 16, 2008 5:34 PM

only one thing matters to me about these players: how do i make them region-free? as it is now i have to buy 2 dvd-players for each tv. region 1 and region 2.

suffice to say it will be years before i bother getting either hd-dvd or blu-ray.

oh, and i heard a rumor about the porn industry going with hd-dvd. it's what helped vhs to out gun betamax...

Mo Reese

January 16, 2008 5:36 PM

I don't know if im incorrect in this sentiment or not, but from what I know, arent both blu-ray and hd-dvd the same thing? they both use a blue laser to read movies. The only difference is the battling companies over who get to make the most $ off the technology and be top dog. Whoever loses will have to remake their catalogue under the other formats name. There is no diff. and no one cares who wins, they jus want their movies!!!

jts

January 16, 2008 5:38 PM

hey deken, im pretty sure sony multi-media compact disc lost to toshibas dvd disc.

and will, unless you have a tv that can refresh better then 60-70hertz, you will NOT see a differance between 1080i and 1080p, fact not opinion.

Gene Trumbo

January 16, 2008 5:40 PM

HD DVD isn't going away. Toshiba has a ten year investment in it. It is building factories to make millions of them. The machines are lower cost. The disks are made with the same manufacturing equipment as standard DVDs --with a $37,000 upgrade. Blu-ray disks need a new $1.2 million machine to manufacture them. It is forecast that dual format machines will be two thirds of player sales in 2 years. HD DVD disks will be cheaper to buy, so consumers will prefer them to Blu-ray disks to play on their dual format machines. The Blu-ray camp knows these things, so they are trying for a preemptive kill of HD DVD. It isn't going to work. It is way too early to judge the future market by present sales.

ted

January 16, 2008 5:41 PM

We are not going to get any satisfaction here. Of all the companies in the world, the top two (many of us), we would like to "stick" most often is Microsoft and Sony.
Either way we loose!

Ajay

January 16, 2008 6:17 PM

Why not buy the LG Player which plays both formats of Blue-ray and HD-dvd,you cannot lose here.People always go with the norm,research a little learn alot.

Sam

January 16, 2008 6:24 PM

My Beta machine is still in fine working order and still plays the same tapes from 25 years ago with very little degredation of image and sound. I've probably been through 15 vhs machines. I own a 46" Sony lcd hidef. T.V. and run a dvd player that emulates HD when playing a regular disc and the image is great. How much more sharp do they have to make these images. I mean really, it's still only 2 dimensional images.

for now.

sinhealer

January 16, 2008 6:32 PM

I believe Peter is dead on target. I am 45 years old and I remember the battle of VHS vs Betamax. Enuf said...

Ben

January 16, 2008 6:48 PM

Now if consumers just cared about this straw man "format war", this whole thing would actually be relevant...

Eric

January 16, 2008 6:50 PM

I don't have either HD player, but do own a Panny 50" plasma.

I'm looking forward to buying a cheap Toshiba HD-DVD. It has excellent upscaling to 1080i, and hopefully the HP series in HD will be on firesale ;). That will keep me more than satisfied until downloadable HD becomes practical. By the way, apple is already set up to offer HD through iTunes for $5 a movie rental -- I just don't know yet how well it will work with my 500KB internet connection.

One common error in many posts deserves correction: 1080i/24 and 1080p/24 look the same. 1080p/60 is years away.

rp

January 16, 2008 6:52 PM

You lazy ass Americans. Stop watching so much freakin TV (DVD, HD DVD, BLU Ray, or what ever) and get off your ass and loose some weight you pathetic society! Nothing better to do you looser couch potatoes! I'm soooo f'in pound you all use your TV's to compensate for your lack of other things we all know what.... hahahahaha!

Todd

January 16, 2008 6:55 PM

Lazy fat ass American's, get a life, get off your couch potato ass and loose some weight! Who cares about your TV's and the formats you watch it in!

Terrence

January 16, 2008 6:55 PM

Pity the poor workers who are still working on the dedicated HD-DVD players that these companies will insist on bringing to market. How do they get up in the morning?

SlimFast

January 16, 2008 7:01 PM

I think for most, the issue isn't HD DVD vs Bluray. The issue is Sony. Sony is what is creating such strong feeling over this debate. If the sides were reversed and Sony had been a supporter of HD DVD. Most would have cheered and made jabs at other early adopters then moved on. I don't have either a bluray or hddvd player but would still have relished in the fact that sony brought forth another failed format. I even like some of sony products and own a couple but I distrust sony as a company since the rootkit fiasco. So even without a material reason to care who wins. I have an emotional reason because of Sony. Sony=Bad then HDDVD=Good

Den

January 16, 2008 7:06 PM

Folks, it's about truth in advertising.. people are more often swayed by clever marketing and the investing companies seeing a larger bottom line. If on the other hand a company can educate the consumer without having to embellish the truth, that is the one that folks should go for. Too bad that lying is normal...?

joesmoe

January 16, 2008 7:10 PM

i agree microsoft or sony what one is the lesser of 2 evils!!im opt out and say sony is lesser jsut cuz the ps2 rocked and vista blowz f u billion gates o and streaming content is the future disc are going like the dinosaur!

Jrule

January 16, 2008 7:19 PM

The featutures of the future Blu-ray disc motivated the move and Blu ray is a better technology (smaller wave length with laser). All these HD owners especially the adults are angry because their other friends did there research and opted for Blu-ray and guaranteed them it will win out. PS3 over Xbox,etc. So all these posts on different websites are merely sour grapes. HD is dead. They only have 2 studios which are about to jump ship soon. Why do you think Paramount put that clause that if "Warner Brother's jumps to Blu-ray the y can opt out of their HD-DVD commitment. HD DVD may have had very slim chance if XBOX came equipt with an HD optical drive but no you have to pay an xtra $200. So stop hating Sony and go by your PS3 or other Blu-Ray player. Toshiba is in denial because of there 10 year investment and so are many of you. Heads will roll because of this. Toshiba should have joined heads with Sony 2 years ago when the camps were thinking about a joint HD venture but didn't. Slashing price of player for a soon unsupported format is awaste of time.

What are you people thinking??

January 16, 2008 7:32 PM

Cmon people really! HD DVD is way better!!!! HD DVD works best with all the new tv coming out and what does blue-ray really offer anyway??

HD DVD - 1

Blue-Ray - 0


Blue Ray HD DVD is just HD DVD with the name blu ray in front of it!

jose

January 16, 2008 7:46 PM

why the hell is it taken so long for the blueray players to come downfrom 400 to 150 if sony is wining there just a bunch of greedy basterds and the goverment needs to adress this and put aset price on sony or fine there ass.on players and movies. peolpe shouldnot be there slaves dam you sony.

Osprey

January 16, 2008 8:18 PM

I just read this entire page, and I say Rp and Todd make a good point.

mason

January 16, 2008 8:38 PM

Which format is "superior" is a stupid argument. Blu-ray holds more, and other things being equal, that makes it superior. Just because you can make an HD-DVD cheaper than a Blu-ray (for now) is sort of pointless when the people in that market have already proved they're not exactly penny-pinching bargain hunters. Otherwise, they wouldn't have HDTVs, would they?

Personally, I don't care either way. I don't own an HDTV, and don't plan to anytime soon. I suppose it's nice to see this stupid fight come to an end at last, but so what?

What I'd really like is a way to watch HD movies on my computer monitor, which has the resolution to make it worthwhile. DRM being what it is though, I don't think that will ever happen with a physical Blu-Ray disc. Heck, I can't even watch most regular DVD's on my computer anymore, which sucks.

Scott S.

January 16, 2008 8:40 PM

Let's look at the VHS/Betamax struggle.

Unlike most of you all here, I was around and in the buying mood back in the mid-80s.

I went with VHS because it could tape 2 hours instead of 1 with the Betamax.

The price difference then wasn't a real factor to me. I wanted to tape Growing Pains and Love Boat for convenient viewing.

rickindenver

January 16, 2008 8:41 PM

I really don't think either one has to win or lose. Both can be played in the same machine unlike the VHS and Betamax, it just isn't a good comparison.

Ski

January 16, 2008 8:46 PM

HD DVD does not have hadcoded regional enforcement. Blue Ray does. What this means to you consumer. If you like those Japanese Animes, and get them from Japan cheaper than you can buy them locally, guess what. You will not be able to play them in good US of A. Or European movies, or whatever else. Now this is stupid since you have spent money on originals. Does that not suck? 'Superior format' has its price.

Will

January 16, 2008 8:59 PM

The 1080i/p debate is even more misinformed than the hd disk war...

JTS and Erik...
(Eric said:)
One common error in many posts deserves correction: 1080i/24 and 1080p/24 look the same. 1080p/60 is years away.
(JTS said)
and will, unless you have a tv that can refresh better then 60-70hertz, you will NOT see a differance between 1080i and 1080p, fact not opinion.

Sigh. /24 means that 24 frames can be shown per second. Which all current and past film and television shoot at. Meaning, having a television that is 1080p/60 would be pointless until studios start shooting at more than 24fps. If a reel of film has 24 pictures for every second of motion, your tv isn't going magically get the other 36 frames inbetween. That applies to every movie, ever made to date. Not to mention the human eye only sees around 30fps.

Here's how the framerate effects resolution... 1080i is interlaced, meaning the full image is cut into two parts; first frame is 540 pixels, and the next frame is the other 540 pixels, to make up one 1080 pixel image. Your eyes see it as one image in the way the interlacing takes place. That means TWO frames put out one image. Effectively 1080i/24 is more like 1080p/12, because 1080p does not split the image into 2 frames, you get the full 1080 image each frame. Technically, 1080p is twice as detailed as 1080i. Does your eye see it as twice as good? Not really, but there is a noticible difference that justifies 1080p. It's just ignorant to say there isnt a difference.

Run a movie at 1080i, and then at 1080p on a 1080p tv, and then tell me there isnt a difference. In fact, after going through all the resolutions on my tv, I would say 720p is better than 1080i. Anyone with a 1080p set can see for themselves by adjusting the resolution settings.

Now, the real argument... if you have a television smaller than 50", youre not going to notice much difference between 1080p/i. That's what throws people off. Now, will most people someday have a 50+ inch tv to justify full 1080 images? That's a tough call.

Brad

January 16, 2008 9:03 PM


TWO WORDS: UP-CONVERT. (is that two or one?) Anyway, honestly, if I had to do it again, I wouldn't buy either. As someone mentioned, it's only true HD resolution if the content was filmed in HD. Most movies out there now were not, and resampled to HD. What's that mean? It means you are paying $10-$15 more a movie for the company to UP-CONVERT the movie for you, slap it on a fancy disc, label it with HD-DVD or BluRay and sell it to you while they're laughing to the bank. BUY AN UP-CONVERT. I have the Harry Potter series on HD-DVD, and when played on my Toshiba HD-DVD player, I honestly can't tell the difference between it and a DVD version of downloaded from the internet. I'll say it again - buy an UP-CONVERT (not progressive - eck!) DVD Player and enjoy all your letterbox movie in the almost same HD quality.. seriously.

Sean

January 16, 2008 9:06 PM

Personally, I prefer HD. I would not pay the blue ray asking price. As most of us know blue ray is better on paper but in real life how much better is that? How could I justified pay such a high price for something that only good on paper but would not bring the next level of enjoyment.
I think I would have to keep using the old format of dvd for awhile.

BhamJoel

January 16, 2008 9:16 PM

If you guys REALLY want to know where this is going, it's DOWN THE DRAIN. Go watch Jobs' keynote speech at Apple's website regarding the new Apple TV unit. Only fools would buy a HD -or- BluRay player. All our content will be coming through the net, and the new Apple TV that lets you rent HD movies without a computer is the wave of the future - only the future starts now and will be firmly in place within a year. SO, the lesson here is don't waste your money or your breath on HD or BluRay players. IT's all going net, and it's all going RENTAL.

kevdvd

January 16, 2008 9:25 PM

the issue is no longer which is the better format. the issue is which format do the movie houses who produce dvd's trust.
so far 5 movie distributors have joined blu-ray, with only two going with hdvd.
from the consumer standpoint the media reports about which format will win out only delays sales by those who don't want to be stuck with a format that can't play for their movies.
or so it would seem. what consumers are really looking for are dvds that burn hdvd's.
the game continues.

How ironic,,,

January 16, 2008 10:09 PM

Sony originally provided the best quality video available to consumers (Beta) and was beaten by the marketing campaign of an inferior product (VHS). Now that they are a super conglomerate they are pushing the weaker format down our throats and consumers get the shaft once again.

Akio Morita must be turning in his grave.

silly

January 16, 2008 10:10 PM

Nobody cares abt the format folks. It's all about the price.

Bob

January 16, 2008 10:11 PM

"No one really cares about blue-ray and HD DVD. The only thing I like watching in HD is football. Regular DVD's look fine on my HD TV."

your tv is upscaling the dvd which helps a little. if you have a very large screen 50+ or even better a projector you will see a huge difference in the HD DVD vs the regular DVD. I run a 100" 1080p projector and the difference in image quality is immediately apparent.

FanBoyBeGone

January 16, 2008 10:17 PM

FanBoyBeGone..apply directly to the forehead!

FanBoyBeGone..apply directly to the forehead!

FanBoyBeGone..apply directly to the forehead!

FanBoyBeGone..apply directly to the forehead!

Why MUST we have only one format? Same games are available on Xbox 360, PS3, Wii, and PC..why not same for movies?

I own a PS3 and a HD-A3 and use both as there is content from Paramount, etc that still not available for blue ray and won't be for some time. As far as simply playing movies in hi def, there is no real difference between blu ray or hd-dvd. All the extra junk is pretty much just junk and while different features are neat at first you just go back to playing the movie and skipping the extras after a while.

Quality Matters

January 16, 2008 10:32 PM

I dare anyone to do a side by side comparison with the same title and on the same monitor (in my case on a Sony XBR KDL-52XBR4) and tell me that Blu-Ray is better. Let's face it Sony wants to have complete control over the digital content they give you (remember DRM!) and quality be damned. Yes, Blu-Ray can hold more but who gives a rats a**! I want the best possible image on my screen not a whole bunch of "added content", as Disney puts it, trying to sell me more crap. HD DVD gives you a superior image.

To the illiterate simpletons who keep saying "who cares?" the answer is simple: those who can notice quality!!! Obviously if you're watching video on a small and crappy monitor you can't tell the difference so shut the hell up already!

silversun

January 16, 2008 10:46 PM

Ok, i think it is clear that bluray has won this, im not sure how you can argue otherwise. The people that are pissed because they bought hd-dvd just got unlucky, and the early adopters of blu-ray...ya'll got unlucky too. Seeing as how every blu-ray player other than the ps3 will not be able to play the full features of upcoming b-r discs... you both lose. that sucks.

Loo-hoo-hoo-ser!

January 16, 2008 11:06 PM

First of all...EW..If you want street cred, don't ever quote wikipedia again.

When I looked at Bluray and HD DVD at the store, HD looked better. More real. Blueray looked like it was digitally enhanced. Thus looked bad. Just

nico

January 16, 2008 11:23 PM

HD DVD is dead. I only buy and will keep buying Blu-Ray, even if they're more expensive.

MrSatyre

January 16, 2008 11:23 PM

Wow. Amazing how many of you have drunk the HD DVD Kool-Aid. All the facts are out there. None of them were hidden or ducked.

BD = larger storage capacity. 40% of BDs have lossless audio. Less than 3% of HD DVDs have lossless audio because they don't have enough space. "Transformers" is a good example. Don't believe me, believe the engineers who worked on it. What difference does it make if an HD DVD player can play a lossless codec if it can't fit on most of the discs in the first place? Not to mention all the extras you can include in 1080p. Again, ask the engineers who worked on "Transformers".

BD+ = secure encryption. Contrary to popular myth, BD+ for Blu-ray has never been cracked. Studios know this and are more eager to have their content protected from piracy than with CSS which is exclusive to the HD DVD format and was cracked within one month of HD DVD hitting the street.

Physical structure = 100GB potential. HD DVD claimed that 50GB BDs were impossible, and later claimed they would not be backwards compatible with 1st generation BD players. In fact, nearly all BD titles sold are 50GB dual-layer discs and play just fine on all 1st generation BD players. On the other hand, HD DVD's own proposed triple-layer 51GB disc is not backwards compatible with any of the existing generations of HD DVD players, according to Toshiba's own engineers at last year's CEATEC.

Universal is the only studio with an actual financial investment in either of the two formats, so it stands to lose the most, and is therefore the least willing to part company with it.

No matter how you slice it, sales figures don't lie. BD is outselling HD DVD 2:1 in the US, 3:1 in Europe, and 5:1 in Japan. There are more BD players in consumers homes than HD DVD by a factor of 2.5:1

HD DVDs claims that PS3 owners don't count because no one is using them to play BD movies in. Even if only half of them did, and the other half did not, that figure alone is greater than all of the HD DVD stand alone players and Xbox 360 add-ons sold to date. Still, even if they were right and NONE of the PS3s were being used to play BD movies, and there were fewer BD stand alone players than HD DVD stand alone players, then how could it be possible that movies on BD continue to outsell HD DVD by a factor of more than 2:1? Are all those BD stand alone player owner's buying two or three copies of each film? Who really believes that? The math simply doesn't work in HD DVDs favor and never has. The only other possible explanation is that many of the PS3 owners ARE using them to play BD movies.

BD = more movies. It's that simple. Even with the Paramount/Dreamworks move to HD DVD exclusivity, there are still far more titles in the catalogs of the BD-supporting studios. And the list of hits is much larger. And when you factor in that many of the titles on HD DVD are also available on BD, even before Warner went BD-exclusive, then the motivation to buy HD DVD grows even less.

BD = manufacturer support. There are more than 170 hardware and media manufacturers supporting BD. At last count for HD DVD, there were...five? And counting brands like Onkyo don't count because their player is simply a rebadged Toshiba.

BD = profit margin. Resellers don't like selling something for next to nothing and making even less on the side. That's very bad business. None of the HD DVD players offer any significant margin. None. How can they, when they're being sold anywhere from $200 to $300 below what it costs to make them?

The list goes on, and on, and on...

G

January 16, 2008 11:28 PM

Neither I will buy a blue ray player nor blue ray dvd since it is way over price. I will choose over HD dvd and price does make a different. Sony's product and Sony's standard is not my favorite either.

PRINCE

January 16, 2008 11:41 PM

I PURCHASED HDA30 FULL 1080P TOSHIBA
TODAY,FOR $199.00 PICTURE QUALITY
IMAZING EVEN I PLAY REGULAR DVDS
.AT SAME TIME I RETURNED SONY BLUERAY
PIECE OF JUNK,LOTS OF FLICKERING
PROBLEMS WHEN REGULAR DVDS PLAYED
FOR ME BLUE DISC OR HDDVD DISCS
ARE PRICY, FOR BEST DEAL AND WINNER
IS HDA30 TOSHIBA IMAZING $199.00
VERY CLOSE PRICE TO GOOD UPCONVERT

Todd

January 16, 2008 11:52 PM

...or you could just reconnect your VHS and buy 150 new movies from Amazon. Much less expensive...

Matt

January 17, 2008 12:00 AM

For all intents the two "formats" are identical. Both can use AVC (or H.264) which is just the latest MPEG4. Both Toshiba and Microsoft were both BD Consortium members and fell out because it was clear Java was going to win the software battle and there wasn't any appreciable need for VC-1 or Windows Media. The only edge MS/Toshiba hold is ease of authoring and BD is fast shrinking that gap.

BD does 7.1 sound and the extra storage capacity will primarly be used for alternate sound just as it is on DL DVDs now.

Jeff

January 17, 2008 12:04 AM

Blu-ray has more storage capacity. So what! Do you really think the studios will take advantage of that feature, to minimize the cost to the consumer? No.

The "user friendliness" of Blu-ray puts it at a disadvantage to HD-DVD. Sony needs to correct this, and lower the price point of its players. THEN we'll have a format.

xman1

January 17, 2008 12:10 AM

Let me see, HD DVD is better than blue ray in many respects, so I doubt it will die off. I only wish Blu-Ray would die off.

Lets see:

HD DVD had all the features and user interactivity, but Blu-Ray has mostly caught up here.

Blu-Ray initially had higher capacity, but with the new HD DVD discs, Blu-Ray is actually 1 GB behind HD DVD's newer 3 layer HD DVD, giving capacity now to HD DVD.

HD DVD can still play your old DVD's - try that on a Blu-Ray player.

HD DVD's movie content can be easily reproduced with minor modifications of existing DVD fab factories resulting in cheaper HD DVD movies, whereas Blu-Ray requires all new equipment so the consumer needs to cough up the cost difference for no better video quality.

HD DVD players are cheaper to manufacture and require no special laser equipiment resulting in cheap to market players as compared to Blu-Ray

HD DVD does not have the anti consumerism of Blu-Ray in that Blu-Ray requires all content to be protected by AACS or BD+, where in HD DVD AACS is optional and BD+ doesn't even exist. What this makes me question is when I buy a brand new HD DVD camera, how am I supposed to playback on a Blu-Ray player? Seems I can't. Seems I can on an HD DVD player.

Why is the consumer in America so ignorant of what is going on here? Pathetic.

-X

AboutTime

January 17, 2008 12:12 AM

The argument that HD-DVD was better for consumers because it is currently cheaper to manufacture is ridiculous. That would be like saying cassettes were better than CDs when CDs first came out. In order to make true strides in technology, you've got to break out of the mold. HD-DVD was simply trying to push the limits of the same old laser technology.

Congratulations Sony on your win, you've successfully won the market with forward thinking and skillful marketing. Now they can focus on reducing manufacturing costs and pushing this newer technology to its limits.

brian

January 17, 2008 12:29 AM

you know, this stuff has gone on so long it gave other manufacturers time to obsolete them both. If anybody cared to look at AppleTV recent announcements that you can rent HD movies online, or purchase them in digital form via download, who needs either HD DVD or Blueray? For $229 I have a little box that can stream music from any PC in the house, can stream movies from any PC in the house, can view all my photos, or friends photos on .mac or flickr, can browse and shop from from my TV, and can rent anything I like from all 6 major studios. All that and I don't have my house cluttered up with Disks. At 2.99 or 3.99 a rental, I don't think I've watch one of the 100 DVD's I have enough to ever pay for them considering the rental price. Won't be too long that computers will have this drive built internal and then you simply rip it and stream/sync to your set-top. Physical media is dead. Apple has this figured out...and it won't take Amazon Walmart and Microsoft too long to come close. Only thing they lack is an appliance.

Allen May

January 17, 2008 1:06 AM

Just another example of corporate America
ripping off the little guy I have both and HD DVD is every bit as good as blu ray even better because it;s cheaper!The movie corporations arer doing what the do in washington lobbying for blu ray and who suffers we do.I could give a shit about 1080p there's not enough 1080i content let alone 1080p in fact there won't be any 1080p for years! JUst another corporate rip off!And you mooks go for it.Enjoy your blu shit ray dummys

Sergio L.

January 17, 2008 2:13 AM

If Toshiba can last till the contract is over with WB & Fox, they might be able to take over, maybe!!!! I'm sure the contract WB & Fox have with Sony wont be long, because the pay was the same as Toshiba offered Paramount.

Sonam

January 17, 2008 2:41 AM

@Peter
John was right. you're a sore loser

yerdad

January 17, 2008 5:02 AM

ok you people have to much cash they left for cash alone hd dvd was fine but me ill keep geting dvd players under 50 usd most i buy are 25 to 30 usd silly wabbits only ever. and ill keep my 99cent rentals too if i had piles of cash id go hddvd but again greed has takeing my free choice away so much for freedom lol blurays lame along with ps3 and to all you ms haters get a life dont use that windows stay on nix or your lame ass ladys box i belive they are called macs rofl or is mac the new nix pew pew pew kekeke pz peeps

Rick

January 17, 2008 5:16 AM

You guys are so obsolete. I bypass all this by getting the movies and music from the internet. Go to Apple Web site and see Steve Jobs presentation. We do not need those disks we have the internet and large PC or network disks.

Marcello C

January 17, 2008 6:37 AM

HD-DVD technically is superior than the Blu-ray format. Cost wise HD-DVD is also lower than blu-ray cost in production cost, player cost and disc cost. Therefore HD-DVD is definitely the better format choice for the consumer and for content providers.

So even though the advantages of HD-DVD are clear for all parties (except for Sony of course) why do we allow these greedy movie companies shoving blu-ray down our throats.
CONSUMERS UNITE! WE SHOULD NOT AND MUST NOT ACCEPT THE MOVIE INDUSTRY DICTATING WHAT IS GOOD FOR US. WE THE CONSUMER ARE INTELLIGENT AND KNOWS WHAT WE WANT... AND WE WANT HD-DVD!

Jay

January 17, 2008 7:18 AM

Betamax is dead. VHS is dead. HD DVD is dead. Blockbuster and Netflix will die. Blu-ray will see a modest sales journey. The trend is DVR and computer-to-TV streaming and I don't see anything on sale today stopping that.

scott

January 17, 2008 7:47 AM

To 'AboutTime' -

Don't post if you don't know what you are talking about. they both use blue lasers. bluray is pushing the 'bleeding edge' not the 'leading edge'

Jason

January 17, 2008 8:34 AM

This seems a moot point.

1. As stated by others, digital content distributed via the internet is the future.

2. Doesn't anyone realize there are combo players that play both medias? Why would anyone choose, when they can have both?

bojangles

January 17, 2008 8:52 AM

We've had solid state discs for years. They're called DVDs.

JB Fremont

January 17, 2008 9:39 AM

I just scaned most the comments. I did not get a chance to look it up. But what format did the Porn industry pick. They will probably be the final as they picked the VHS over Beta winner. Food for thought.

Justin

January 17, 2008 9:46 AM

I would understand if Blu-ray had the same options that hd-dvd has, but in reality they do not. And guess what the blu-ray players firmware can't be upgraded except for the PS3, so in order to get full functionality new players will have to be bought.HD-DVD already has network support, picture in picture, etc. The only thing Blu-ray can do is play the movie. I really wish studios would rethink their options.

Chris K

January 17, 2008 9:53 AM

The AppleTV is better now than before, but I think it's still lacking one feature that keeps at least myself from buying one. DVR functionality. If only the AppleTV had this one feature added, I would buy it, even if it was an option that added cost. Otherwise, I fell the 2.99 to 3.99 cost for rentals is WAY expensive. I don't know how much it is in other parts of the country, but here is SW Mo, 3 bucks gets you a brand new movie for 3 to 7 days depending on the store (not 24 hours). I like the AppleTV, but until they add DVR, I'll keep using my old Quicksilver (connected to my TV) to stream movies from my Mac Pro to my TV.

Louis

January 17, 2008 10:16 AM

Brian is right. HD-DVD is going away, so can we PLEASE stop arguing about why it WAS better than BD? PLEASE ALREADY! You guys need to let go...it's gone...IT IS GONE... Let's talk about BD vs. digital. That's going to be a huge hurdle for BD in the next 5 years. Netflix/Amazon/Apple and all the big boys recognize the digtal move that MP3's made away from CD's and nobody has perfected it with video content yet. But it's coming soon, all the big boys recognize it and want to own the market. Forget BD and please stop talking about HDDVD. I bought a PS3 for the games and the BD is awesome, but I'm only renting BD movies, I will never buy one. Same goes for HDDVD, I would never start building a stock of movies with the new services that are going to start. They won't be perfect for a few more years, but somebody will get it right.

Ray

January 17, 2008 10:17 AM

To those who say Blu-ray is "owned" by Sony

Who developed Blu-ray?

The Blu-ray Disc format was developed by the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA), a group of leading consumer electronics, personal computer and media manufacturers, with more than 180 member companies from all over the world. The Board of Directors currently consists of:

Apple Computer, Inc.
Dell Inc.
Hewlett Packard Company
Hitachi, Ltd.
LG Electronics Inc.
Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd.
Mitsubishi Electric Corporation
Pioneer Corporation
Royal Philips Electronics
Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.
Sharp Corporation
Sony Corporation
Sun Microsystems, Inc.
TDK Corporation
Thomson Multimedia
Twentieth Century Fox
Walt Disney Pictures
Warner Bros. Entertainment

My 5 cents

January 17, 2008 10:29 AM

Two suggestions:
For HD DVD developers (like Toshiba) - get recordable HD DVD to the market and you will be on the top.
For anyone making predictions without facts - would you put you life behind your words?

me

January 17, 2008 10:34 AM

WOW. As always, the Sony Fans are out trying to convince everyone, including themselves, that there is a really good reason they buy PROPRIETARY tech they could get for half as much, without the SONY brand name on it. (Very similar to the Apple guys and gals if I do say so myself).

I, as many of you out there, am a fan of ANY company that gets us great tech at a good value. Sony has done this with their audio products since their inception, but has been going in the opposite direction with their components after PC’s took off. They only see dollar signs these days. There is no more innovation; just new twists on ways to get you stuck buying what they want you to, at their inflated price. Microsoft and all the other big tech companies are guilty of this as well, but just not as blatant as Sony or the Apple folks.

I don’t own either format player.

I use a Philips $40 HDMI 1080i up-converting player because it is worth the $40 to improve my standard DVDs. I play on a 360 because LIVE is a much better online platform than PS3Network. I watch a Samsung 1080i DLP because it was only $900 and there is NO 1080p TV CONTENT (yet)!!! Don’t be stupid people- get what you need, don’t waste your $ feeding the big machines. At least Toshiba is willing to let you keep some $ in your pocket. If you just can’t go without those WB titles in HD, by all means go and blow your load on a PS3, cause it’s the cheapest BluRay player there is, and that is Sony’s main goal anyway- To sell more PS3’s.

None of what is happening with these 2 formats will matter in a few years. SSD flash and streaming set-tops are what we will be using. At least Bill Gates has come out and been truthful about that. You will never hear a Sony rep make that statement with this going on. I’m telling you, they are only trying to sell more PS3’s…they screwed up its launch big time.

Justin

January 17, 2008 10:43 AM

@Xman1

What's laughable is how uninformed you are. Let's take your points 1 by 1.

- Interactivity. You acknowledge they've caught up, so this is a wash.

- Many HD DVD players (including the Walmart specials) do not play these and newer BDs coming out are going to 100 GB in capacity. Ouch to HD DVD.

- Blu ray players upscale old DVDs same as your HD DVD player. Again, a wash. I cant believe how dumb you are to think they don'.

- Pricing. Why are the discs the same price then? Sounds like either Sony is giving us a deal or Toshiba is screwing us. You decide.

- BD players are constantly dropping. Current HD pricing is only because they're trying to get the stock out the door.

- Protection is likely the very reasons the studios have chosen Blu-ray. They want their content protected. Preach all you want about consumerism, but if the studios choose Blu-ray, and consumers can only get their movies on Blu-ray...guess who wins and gets sales.

You suck, you lose. Sell your player before you can't.

Mark

January 17, 2008 10:49 AM

Tried both HD DVD and BlueRay and HD DVD is the better choice. The manu is better, it the discs have more features and the price is lower. I hope HD DVD makes it as the format of choise and BlueRay dies.

ME

January 17, 2008 11:10 AM

HD DVD or BLU RAY!!!...Who cares???...im just waitin for some east asian company to make cheap players that play both the formats...Sometimes my sony DVD doesnt play some of my personally created dvds but a cheap 30 buck player plays it all...so y argue over stupid stuff...???

dan

January 17, 2008 11:33 AM

I agree with me, truth is , most people don't care, and most are not buying either format,the phillips hdmi upconveting players are great and cheap and will play all standard dvd's.... the masses will wait until the idiot electronic giants lose their shirts.

Harvey

January 17, 2008 11:41 AM

Two words... ROOT KIT. Sony made the mistake of placing spyware onto their music CDs. That kind of corporate thinking I would not buy into despite, what I personally consider, better content. If the consumer votes HD DVD due to price, and I think so because there is no practical technical advantage to BluRay, then IMHO content will follow the winner.

Joe

January 17, 2008 11:47 AM

Hope people arent stupid enough to buy an HD-DVD player now with the fire sale out and Toshiba trying to unload inventory on the customers.

Steve Hobbles

January 17, 2008 11:58 AM

i love the arguement that apple wins again.. i lovbe that

you apple RETARDS.

microsoft has ALWAYS WON.
apple is a niche product for losers who cant hack REAL PCs.

bitch please.

ljbanner

January 17, 2008 12:02 PM

check the history on bluray its riddled with bugs
1 harry potter collection on blu had hd dvd on the last film so could not be played and people had to send it back
2 pirates of the carabian had problems with the tops of heads chopped off in most scenes had to be sent back
3 blade runner box set the last disc was copy of the first disc had to be sent back
4 terminator encoded in standard def instead of hd had to be recalled.
with all the new specs on films like 2.0 1.1 1.2 will not all be compatable with early adopters and even some newer blu players exept ps3 they will all shout out (yes thats sony looking out for its self)
i got a hd e1 from toshiba popped in the mummy and it stuttered for 5 seconds on the universal logo yet watched the whole film and all the extras without 1 glitch
following day plugged the ethernet cable into the back and it auto found and installed the latest firmware,popped in the mummy and bang no problems what so ever!and thet is why i am a hd dvd fan because it does what it says on the tin.

Rob

January 17, 2008 12:10 PM

Realistically, the format war could be far from over. It's not like there's a significant number of players on either side sold - like what percentage of households has EITHER player? I'd guess well under 10%...

While it looks like Blu Ray has the early advantage with the WB defection, if Toshiba drops its players to the point where the *mainstream*, NOT just early adopters, can justify the purchase, they could conceivably come from behind in this fight.

And we can all agree that when there's a significant enough installed base of EITHER format player, the non-supporting studios will not be able to ignore the sales potential and will have to start supporting the format.

Scott B

January 17, 2008 12:24 PM

It really seems like a group of people are ignoring facts. I could not care less which one wins because they are not that different. But there is no reason arguing because it is obvious some people have taken this personally I am sorry if you bought a hddvd player because it was cheaper that does not make it better.

A large group of people have tried to show facts and another group has ignored them. Any fact or positive point brought up for hddvd has not been enough to point out why it is better other than price and some better options (which with 1.1-2.0 don’t matter). Plus the way you use the internet (Youtube and other congested crap) is the reason why digital downloads wont work I think some one tried to make that point already downloading 25-50 gigs is not worth it and until we all have terabyte drives you could only fit a few on the average computer unless you opt to back them up with your bluray drive since getting a triple layer hddvd burner will prob be more money than any bluray burner.

Once again who cares if both stick around or die out but all you peeps saying hddvd is better and Sony is all that is evil and whatever else please read some of the facts and calm down.
The real evil is government and wagon wheels.

joelee

January 17, 2008 12:32 PM

Sony won because PS3's tipped the scales. I know many bot PS3 just because it was a cheaper Bluray player.

Toshiba didn't anticipated this extra inclusion in PS3. Since XBox360 was out a year before PS3 it was hard for Toshiba to predict Sony including Bluray.

By the time Toshiba notice and started offering HD-DVD as an external for XBOX, it was not having a high enough attachment rate. Plus a tit for tat war on fighting for studio exclusives, Sony just had the edge in numbers(with added PS3 numbers). It was too MUCH too late for Toshiba.

Sony took a really good gamble this time!

Aaron

January 17, 2008 12:48 PM

Roger above got it backwards - he championed HD DVD due to having lower compression than BlueRay. ROGER, it is HD DVD that has the higher compression scheme.

Dan

January 17, 2008 12:54 PM

Tangible is obsolete. When will everyone realize that this is the digital era...there is no need to produce DVDs and CDs anymore because we can download everything. and when you download an HD version of a movie, you don't have to worry a thing about some silly Media Format and some expensive player.

Get the fastest internet connection you can. its all about bandwidth now.

Aaron

January 17, 2008 12:59 PM

Blu-ray beats HD-DVD in Read/Write speed and makes the logical winner even when you don't consider Blu-ray's higher capacity.

According to the Blu-ray Disc specification, 1x speed is defined as 36Mbps. There are already 4x BRDs out (144Mbps). Blu-ray also has the potential for much higher speeds, as a result of the larger numerical aperture (NA) adopted by Blu-ray Disc. The large NA value effectively means that Blu-ray will require less recording power and lower disc rotation speed than DVD and HD-DVD to achieve the same data transfer rate. While the media itself limited the recording speed in the past, the only limiting factor for Blu-ray is the capacity of the hardware. If we assume a maximum disc rotation speed of 10,000 RPM, then 12x at the outer diameter should be possible (about 400Mbps). This is why the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) already has plans to raise the speed to 8x (288Mbps) or more in the future.

stew

January 17, 2008 1:22 PM

Blue ray this and HD that. all I care about is can I down load a blue ray or HD movie, delete the copyright protection and burn it so I can watch it on my DVD player....

Ty

January 17, 2008 1:45 PM

I didn't see anybody post another one of the main reasons why the movie industry is leaning towards Blu-Ray. They're losing money by supporting two formats. By adapting one format, the prices for the movies and players will drop. I'm another one in the "who cares" camp. I don't see standard DVD's going away anytime soon.

Sony has also lost all relevance as a company. They screwed up the PS3 by pushing their blu-ray agenda. They've wasted a lot, lemme rephrase a HUGE SUM of money on a format that will probably never be as popular as standard DVD's I believe. By the time Blu-Ray gains traction, many people will have access to higher download rates than today's speeds, cable companies will have a better rental program, and then you got itunes, hulu, and netflix.

I think cable companies are sitting on a goldmine. Imagine if you could buy an hd movie for $15 stored on their network, accessible from any cable box in your house and also over the Internet or put it on your iPod. This is the way digital media is going whether consumers or the industry likes it or not.

Care a lot

January 17, 2008 2:09 PM

Who cares really? Do you have a 120hz display that can even play the 24 frame format correctly? Look into a 120hz display before getting into a Blueray or HDDVD. Movies will look excellent on these sets no matter if its on an HD channel or SD channel. F the stupid discs all together. Just down load the sheesh.

Ray

January 17, 2008 2:14 PM

"me
January 17, 2008 10:34 AM

WOW. As always, the Sony Fans are out trying to convince everyone, including themselves, that there is a really good reason they buy PROPRIETARY tech they could get for half as much, without the SONY brand name on it."

Both formats HD-DVD And Blu-ray are PROPRIETARY.


"They only see dollar signs these days. There is no more innovation; just new twists on ways to get you stuck buying what they want you to, at their inflated price. Microsoft and all the other big tech companies are guilty of this as well, but just not as blatant as Sony or the Apple folks."

Microsoft Has been Crushing innovation almost from day 1, Remember Lotus 123, Dr-dos, Netscape, To name a few?
HD-DVD isn't innovation, its an improvement over DVD.

Blu-ray Is also just an improvement over DVD.
The FACT that it is not supported by Microsoft is why I prefer it to HD-dvd.

I don't expect any support from Microsoft to get HD-DVD working on my Linux T42 Thinkpad, but with IBM on the Blu-ray disc association I hope to see blu-ray support in K3b, as well as a movie player.
For the record I am still using an old dvd/vcr combo to watch movies on our 42" 1080p Sylvania HDTV

Sonyless

January 17, 2008 2:23 PM

Sony is a evil company, They release products with flaws just to get a buck.
Sony? Not even for free!!!!

Casper007

January 17, 2008 2:26 PM

Blu-ray may in fact win the fight, but what does it matter if it can't win the war against DVD. Remember laserdisc a decade ago, a better format with higher picture and sound quality over VHS. It seemed destined to replace VHS but never gained enough consumer momentum, even without a format war. This is partially because of lack of recordability, but mainly because VHS was so strong. The cost of VHS was lower both on hardware and media, so in the end only a small portion of the market adapted it, far less than the critical mass needed to replace VHS. I see history repeating itself again.

Long live DVD, stay away from Blu-ray.

And yes I bought into laserdisc, won't be making the same mistake twice, no matter which format wins ultimatly they will both lose.

Steve Dickenson

January 17, 2008 2:35 PM

After looking at what both format has to offer and does offer I decided HD DVD was he best. And still think so. It would have been fantastic if there were any dual format player were on the market at the time for $300 bucks or less. I would have probably bought to take advantages of what both formats offer. HD DVD the most with it's completed specs. And update to Profile 1.1 or whatever later for BD.

In this case I would be able to buy and watch any movie from any studio and let the studios decide which format to release their movies on based on how much it cost to manufacture and their profit margins. But for now until or unless Blu-ray specs are up to par with HD DVD and is below $149.99 I'm just going to sit and wait, and buy and enjoy my HD DVD movies until a sub $199.99 Dual Player hits the market.

Byrdlander

January 17, 2008 2:42 PM

Wow, most of you are focusing on things that don't matter.

As some savvy posters have pointed out, it is CONTENT that will determine the success or failure in this war.

I have both formats. On my 70 inch set, BD usually looks better than the HD-DVD. Upconverted DVDs DO NOT look "almost as good" as either HD format on a screen of this size.

I buy discs in both formats, but I will be very careful about how many more HD-DVD discs I buy (unless they blow them out) until I see that they have some kind of chance to change the current situation.

Downloadable HD content will need to be highly compressed to be feasible anytime soon, and most people are just not going to do well with the equipment necessary to deliver it.

The MP3 analogy only goes so far. When I compare the audio quality of a good MP3 against the CD, it is no contest. Physical media is necessary to get the full experience.

With regard to menus and the like, I don't get it. I buy the disc to watch a movie in the best possible resolution and high quality sound.

And for those of you saying the discs are more expensive, where are you buying your discs? I was getting new releases of BD from Amazon last year for a couple bucks more than the DVD version at Costco. The HD-DVD version of Star Trek Season one has a list price of $192 for 10 discs. Not cheap.

I am not a fanboy for either format, but BD has turned up the winner in our home, even my wife who hates technology would agree. She gets it that only one studio remains exclusive to HD-DVD after May. She likes Disney movies, and she knows she needs BD for that.

It's really simple.

Meanwhile, for those of you who are waiting, I have to laugh a little. I have been enjoying both formats for well over a year, and it really hasn't been that expensive. How many of you have a worthless laserdisc collection in your closet? You wanted to see Planet of the Apes in widescreen with digital sound back then? It would set you back $59.95 (fox sucks) for one movie. Adjusted for inflation, these new formats are cheap.

Content, Content, Content.

Fanboy of the Best Technology

January 17, 2008 2:48 PM

I've been waiting for a winner...

and praying it would be Blu-ray.

It's far superior and does not have the terrible Microsoft compression (what's the point of HD then???).

AND, HOW SHORT OUR MEMORIES ARE:
Let's NOT forget that TOSHIBA is the company that SECRETLY SOLD OUR U.S. Top Secret Submarine "Quiet Propeller" technology to the Russians...

NEVER buy ANYTHING Toshiba EVER...

stew

January 17, 2008 2:49 PM

While I was reading some of the other comments in here this ocured to me.
We first had Edison's cylinder
78s
331/3s
45s
reel to reel
8 tracks
cassettes
lazer discs
CD
DVD
HD vs Blue ray

what do they all have in common?...motors
Lets leave that technology behind go to solid state. With memory getting in the 16Gb/32Gb (more than enough for a HD movie)Manufacturers could go to any studio and get permission to produce movies on solid state devices. Of course that would spark the Compact flash, memory stick, SD debate, but that's another topic.All you'd have to do is pop it into a reader, shoot it off to your TV and voila.

J. M. Schneider

January 17, 2008 3:03 PM

Re: Mike Apruzzese's comments about BetaMax vs VHS (in comparison to BluRay vs HD-DVD):

The 'war' between BetaMax and VHS was driven largely by the porn industry, who found VHS cheaper to produce. There is no such impetus in today's production market, especially with so many media houses doing the burning for you, for comparable pricing. In fact, at the recent Adult Entertainment Show (following CES), many industry pundits stated clearly that the pornography industry is not driving this debate, and has no interest in driving it, given the production unit price points.

This format war is strictly between SONY and Toshiba, and is being driven largely by the profit margins at the unit price of players.

Someone comes out with an *affordable* multi-format disc player and this game is over. But that won't happen because SONY likely keeps the encoding licensing at prohibitive prices.

Yes, BluRay has higher media density, and this means more content. But production houses have to want to generate that content, and production costs money, with no guarantee that they'll recoup it at the media sale. So, less is more, and we're just taking it on the chin at the cash register.

stew

January 17, 2008 3:28 PM

fanboy

Not this has anything to do with the debate.....But What was a Japanese company doing with US "TOP SECRET" technolgy that they could sell to the Russians???
Not very secret after all....

whitey

January 17, 2008 3:34 PM

I don't care which one 'wins'. The x264 format has won in my home. I can download a full 720p/1080p film in about two hours and burn it to a dual layer disc (or put on my media center) and it looks pretty damn fine on the 106" front projection screen. I'm a geek who is pretty passionate about the technology, and I have yet to see a real, quantifiable difference between the bootleg x264 (compressed) films and real HD-DVD or BluRay. Just imagine how little the average consumer can tell the difference...

Phil

January 17, 2008 3:50 PM

The market will be the ultimate judge of who wins this format battle, not the manufacturers or the content industry.

The bottom-line is that both formats will have a very short shelf-life.

Mike

January 17, 2008 4:23 PM

I own over 1000 DVDs. Think I want to buy more physical media?? Hell no! If I can fit those 1000 movies (and possibly the special features) into a single multi terrabyte hard drive, why the hell would I continue to fill my wall of DVDs? HD downloads have arrived and for the price of a TB capacity hard drive coupled with the price of buying/renting a movie over the internet as opposed to price or physical media and physical storage (not to mention the entire collection available via the remote control), it just makes sense to ditch physical media altogether. BluRay and HD-DVD are already obsolete in my mind.

Technicaltaurus

January 17, 2008 4:27 PM

The Beta vs VHS format was decided on the cost of the media per unit time. You could get more video on a VHS tape for less money than beta. Tape was expensive in the beginning (the late 1970's) where some retailers were getting $20.00 for a VHS tape and about the same for a Beta. The VHS gave up to 6 hrs per tape vs 4.5 hrs per tape for Beta...

BTW someone forgot to mention the 4 track format carts that came and vanished in a flash (but they did exist...)

AM

January 17, 2008 4:31 PM

When it comes to computers, speed is everything (well, second to storage space).

DATA TRANSFER RATES:
Blu-Ray media available now: 4x (144 Mbps)
HD-DVD media abailable now: 1x (36 Mbps)

Blu-Ray speed potential 12x (432 Mbps)
HD-DVD speed potential 8x (288 Mbps)

Note: base speed rating 1x is 36 Mbps for the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray media compared to 1x rating of 11 Mbps for DVD media.

AUDIO/VIDEO TRANSFER RATES:
Blu-Ray: 54.0 Mbps
HD-DVD: 36.55 Mbps

STORAGE CAPACITY:
Blu-Ray Single Layer: 25 GB
HD-DVD Single Layer: 15 GB

Blu-Ray Dual Layer: 50 GB
HD-DVD Dual Layer: 30 GB

Blu-Ray Triple Layer: 75 GB?
HD-DVD Triple Layer: 51 GB?

stew

January 17, 2008 4:51 PM

Technicaltaurus
I didn't mention 4track format carts because I've had years of therapy trying to wipe it from my mind...but thanks for reminding me.....

Will

January 17, 2008 5:05 PM

Give it a rest on digital HD downloads, please. Apple TV generation 1, failed. Now they're releasing the same crap with "HD" rentals for $240.

Except it isn't really HD.

Here’s a quote from a recent Apple TV review…
“What usually isn't mentioned about Apple's iTunes HD movies is that they're only encoded in 720p, half the resolution of Blu-ray, which encodes all film content at 1080p (Full HD). The result is a picture which is only half as sharp, half as colorful. Furthermore, only some of the iTunes HD movies have surround sound, and those that do only make use of the archaic Dolby Digital technology. “

I'll admit the concept of a NetFlix box that plays EVERY movie in their catalogue would be very cool. (not going to happen for a while) But I would still have that in addition to a physical disk player. I'm not sure how an online rental service monthly fee, in addition to high speed internet monthly fee is somehow more feasible than a 1 time disk player fee...in the near future a blu-ray player is going to cost as much or less than a month of internet service/rental fees. Pretty sure both technologies are going to coexist through the lifespan of blu-ray...

jts

January 17, 2008 5:52 PM

@Will

it sounds like you read a brochure from best buy LOL. i work (14 years now) in a very high end electronic store (martin logans are some of the cheapest speakers we carry).


we have a custom screening room where we show customers the difference between 1080i/p on a 70"plasma and 99% could not see any difference and im sure most of the people who got it right were guessing.

over the last year we were comparing hd dvd to blu ray, people could not see a difference but could occasionally hear a difference with blu rays uncompressed pcm audio, but they were also listening to it on $110,000 of audio equipment, not to many people have that kind of equipment at home and probably wouldnt notice a difference with theres at home.

Mike

January 17, 2008 7:31 PM

Will, I agree with Jts. The average consumer (audiophiles and videophiles included) really can't tell the difference in a blind test the difference between 720p, 1080p or 1080i; and audio, the difference between Dolby Digital, DTS, high quality AAC, MP3, etc, or hell Vinyl. It's all subjective. There are those with Golden Ears and Eyes, but they are few. Go ahead... take a double blind test.

Richard

January 17, 2008 7:35 PM

This isn't about who made the better product; it's who can persuade the movie companies to join forces with them. And, seeing as Blu-Ray is overall a more expensive process (manufacturing of player, DVD's, etc.), it shouldn't be surprising that the movie industry picked Sony. They want to make a pretty penny on the HD market, and Blu-Ray will allow them to do so. It's a shame, considering that HD-DVD is a cheaper product with the same quality, and with major corporate power behind them. Sony may have finally won one of their stupid format fights, after all. Shame.

Elgon

January 17, 2008 8:58 PM

Actually VHS was developed and licensed (for free) by JVC to compete with Sony's Betamax - which had a superior picture quality but initially could not handle a 2 hour movie on one cassette. Toshiba supported both formats, by the way. Just a point of clarification in the muddiness of this debate. S despite Sony's superior picture quality on Betamax there were other reasons why VHS won out. Sony definitely did not market their wares well but the marketing was not the complete blame for the death of Betamax. The standard in a professional format was used for years in TV stations, though. Some of the msaller market stations probably still have some betamax equipment. Sony did not lose money on the technology.

E

GadgetMan

January 17, 2008 9:21 PM

Boo Hoo Hoo Robert Choo, HD DVD was the one lining people's pockets so get your sob story correct. Along with "rib" people off. I guess you need to go back to school cause it would be rip people off..

Sore Loser!!!

All these HD-DVD sore losers!!!
Hurry take back those Christmas presents and exchange them for Blu-Ray.

The war is WON and the future is BLU!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GadgetMan

January 17, 2008 9:24 PM

And yes Sony and Blu have won!!
Don't cry as Toshiba is telling everyone, their product is also a great upscaling DVD player.

GadgetMan

January 17, 2008 9:31 PM

Speaking of Downloading movies, this isn't going to work, because of the fact Time Warner Cable is now going to start charging their customers for how much they download versus a standard monthly rate, soon the rest of the isp companies will probably follow suit since they are greety and there goes downloading movies!!

WOW

January 17, 2008 9:39 PM

Wow... if you have read this far, congratulations.... this has been a hell of a debate.

CH

January 17, 2008 9:58 PM

Buy a player that can play both format

Reggie

January 17, 2008 11:48 PM

AM makes a good point. There is also the computer industry.

Blu-ray has much bigger potential with a quad layer disk already tested at 100gb storage. HD DVD looks to have maxed out with a 51gb triple layer disk test.

The speed also favors Blu-ray. You can buy 4x 144 Mbps writeable Blu-ray disks today (search the internet). HD DVD only offers 1x 36 Mbps writeable disks.

Due to design (data storage depth and laser focus) Blu-ray will be able to show even greater data transfer rates than HD DVD in the future.

Oscar

January 18, 2008 12:10 AM

It seems criminal that Sony has movie studios in their pockets. Why hasn't the FCC stepped in? It seems Sony is being monopolistic. A consumer should have the right to watch Disney videos on HD-DVD and not Blueray.

PUBLIC ENEMY #1

January 18, 2008 12:17 AM

What a bunch of GOOF-BALLS.
This 'War' isn't between SONY and TOSHIBA. Nor is it about who's persuading who.
The 'War' is (and alway will be) to get as much money out of YOUR pocket and into THERE hands.

At the end of the day. WE DECIDED WHAT SUCCEEDS, NOT THEM.

No conning me

January 18, 2008 1:45 AM

First we had VHS VS BETA, then DVD-Audio, DVD-RAM, DVD-ROM,DVD-RW+ DVD-RW, now Blue ray and HD-DVD, more conning more making money out of us. Well no thanks I will stick to my normal DVD's. At lease VHS, would play a whole 4 hour movies without getting up to flip it over to watch the other side, plus they could bloody record up to 8 hour of footage.

Kevin England

January 18, 2008 9:04 AM

To Anonymous:

A hybrid PC player DOES exist (for $299). I think these will eventually be sub-$99. I see no reason why both formats can't coexist. Because if they don't, then a lot of embittered people will never buy the other format, and up-scaled and downloaded movies will get the advantage, and piracy will "explode." This is a case of the movie industry getting FAR too greedy--AGAIN!

Pradeep

January 18, 2008 11:25 AM

If By bundling PS3 sony shifts the weight and woo the studio execs, then maybe Toshiba too should try to do something similar, Signup with Nintendo to offer HD-DVD on Wii.....this is the only player that is giving sony a run for their money..... :)

Emilio Santiago

January 18, 2008 11:43 AM

There is no format war - Blu-ray has won. Can we please move on now to a standardized format so we can ALL enjoy our high def DVDs in peace and without all this god**mn fanboi bickering?

Screw the Corps

January 18, 2008 11:48 AM

Screw both these formats. Get a hacked xbox with linux on it, or a simple laptop with an hdmi out. Download hd divx or .mkv hd rips off bit torrent. And if you want to feel like you're not stealing, buy a copy on dvd and stick it on a shelf.

LITTLE VETOE

January 18, 2008 11:59 AM

Digital delivery is the only answer. Once we can download quickly anything we want, all of the argument dies. Video/audio software formats are dead. And if not dead, it is on life support provided by manufacturers of junk and people who buy it. I will purchase NOTHING until I can download what I want, when I want it, in a few short minutes. I predict that will be about 2011. I can wait. Most material available to the masses is crap anyway...

PORN DECIDES

January 18, 2008 12:01 PM

What a bunch of short memories you people have.

What won the videotape wars was CONTENT.

When one company or another gets off it's high moral horse and decides to license their standard to PORN, that will end this war.

Ken

January 18, 2008 12:09 PM

Don't forget that Microsoft never really interested on backing HD DVD to win. 360's never get its build-in HD DVD to compete against PS3 & MS later declared neutral to both format yet help bought out Paramount switch. What's MS true agenda? Weaken both sides to promote its digital content download later. Watch out for MS moves, given its history of monopoly tactics.

Blueray vs Bluescreen

January 18, 2008 12:24 PM

Is microsoft brainwahing the americans ?
Haven't you realize yet that Windows often bugs ?! I'm just not sure Hd-dvd is winning the software point..

Jim Carr

January 18, 2008 12:38 PM

I love my PS3 and I am very happy with the price I paid for it. Games are incredible and movies are clearer then when you are at a theatre. Everyone who have whitnessed the awesome picture quality of HD agrees, it's all about price and content. Sony is winning because of rough business practices, a great marketing campaign, and reasonable pricing for a great game station/Bluray player. Had XBox included it's HDDVD player initially, the story may be very different right now. I am surprised nobody is talking about the $1billion in warrenty work for the XBox and the Bill Gates/Microsoft connection to HDDVD. A lot of money being pumped in and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a long life for HDDVD as a result. Lots of money in game sales and on-line subscriptions. If I were Toshiba, a lot would be going into promotion of HD gaming.

HDFanboy

January 18, 2008 12:39 PM

HD-DVD/Blu-Ray... you guys forgot one more format.. HD-Divx!! I don't care who wins the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray format war.. there will ALWAYS be HD-Divx!! It has already won!

Darksider

January 18, 2008 12:44 PM

The death of hd-dvd is a loss to us all. Sony has never seen a format where they didn't try to push a proprietary and more expensive solution. I'm sure ps/2 players remember their memory sticks well. Sony wishes to crush hd-dvd and lock everyone into their proprietary blu-ray technology for the next decade. One that happens you won't see a drop in price for blu-ray movies or players til some other force comes along to compete with them. With Sony it's all about control and the right to gouge your wallet. This is why monopolies are bad. Never, ever support anyone's attempt to become a monopoly and restrict your choice. You're only hurting yourself in the pocketbook by doing so.

Anthony

January 18, 2008 12:49 PM

What about DIVX ? I am still sitting on the fence as far as blu ray and HD. DIVX compression and the fact you don't have to buy a 12.00 disc to burn makes it more cost effective and the quality is superb.

Amadeus321

January 18, 2008 12:58 PM

To throw in a different perspective, I think the competition is good. For the consumer anyway. The manufacturers and most companies involved would like one standard because there's less development, capital, and manufacturing costs. Why? Profit margins, especially Sony's. Monopoly tends to be good for profit and control.

How are the consumers benefitting from this format war? Well, I doubt the player prices would drop that quickly without it, but that is just an opinion. However, can you question the value you are getting with all these free disc offers. Whichever format you choose, you are getting 5-7 movies for free. That's a pretty good value.

I have a xbox360+hd-dvd right now and I'll probably get a PS3 pretty soon when better games are out for it. I don't remember getting a value this good when I bought a PS2 or Xbox. Did anyone get 7 movies free with their early stand-alone DVD player?

Manufacturing costs that some posts indicate are a bit exaggerated too or very old info, machines we make can do both formats, and we are not alone. Plus they dragged the standards out so long and delayed the players, the discs themselves were being made 1+ years before the players came out so manufacturing had quite a head start.

Drew

January 18, 2008 1:10 PM

The war is not over just yet. The porn industry is yet to make their decision official. Tentetively they have agreed to support Toshiba. 20 years ago they made the same decision which was ultimately the final coffin nail for Sony's Beta. HD also has microsoft heavily in their camp. Windows supports the HD format.

If MS continues to deny native blu-ray support and the porn industry keeps its commitment, nothing will be able to save Blu-Ray, no matter how positive the outlook is now. Computers and Sex run our country and world.

dobyblue

January 18, 2008 1:16 PM

Oscar, how is SOny being Monopolistic?
There are 17 major companies holding patents in Blu-ray Disc technology including JVC, Warner Bros, TDK, Panasonic, Sony, Dell and others.

There are several companies already with their own R&D'd players on the market or announcedl; Sharp, Denon, Pioneer, Philips, Panasonic, Sony, Samsung, Loewe and Funai.

The only HD DVD players are from Toshiba, Venturer and Onkyo. The Venturer and Onkyo are both Toshiba players rebadged. The Venturer is an HD-A3 and the Onkyo is an HD-XA2.

Now define a monopoly. Make sense?

Sony don't control bugger all when it comes to Blu-ray - the board of directors does:

Board of Directors
Apple, Inc.
Dell
HP
Hitachi
LG
Mitsubishi Electric
Panasonic
Pioneer
Philips
Samsung
Sharp
Sony
Sun Microsystems
TDK
Thomson
Twentieth Century Fox
Walt Disney
Warner Bros.

Ari

January 18, 2008 1:20 PM

I find these comments but HD DVD fanboys to be laughable. The consumer had chosen the blu-ray format all year long last year with an average 2:1 sales lead for discs over HD DVD and now it has been revealed that this margin grew even wider with the pre-announced numbers for last week which give a 5:1 lead at 85:15 in favor of Blu-ray in the US.

The reason Warner switched is because titles like 300 on blu-ray outsold the HD DVD version by 3:1.

DP

January 18, 2008 1:25 PM

To Robert Choo, the cheaper HD-DVD models (A1,A2,A3) are not 1080p, only 1080i. And 30GB is not enough. Some examples: the Transformers HD-DVD has no lossless soundtrack, Harry Potter: Order of The Phoenix has the extras in standard-def while the Blu-Ray's are in HD, Gods & Generals is on 1 disc on Blu while the HD-DVD is on two with the same content, etc.

John C. in Florida

January 18, 2008 1:29 PM

The HD format on DVD is doomed to the fate of 12" Video Laser Disk if one change is not made. You have to have both HD content and regular content on the same disk. HD-DVD had this one feature right. I own both a Blue Ray and a HD Player and play them with delight on my HD 1080p Plasma. There is one drawback to this however. When I buy the Disney title for $35 dollars and cant play it on the the dvd player in the van for the kids nor my 5 other DVD players I have thru the house I ask myself; is it really worth it? Then I buy my parents a blueray player for christmas and they ask me the same thing; why can't I play these movies in my room and the deathnails are being made. If Blueray wants to be truely king, in order to smooth the transition they will have to produce disks with both versions. If not, you will be looking through the bargain bins for Blueray titles in 5 years. DVD upconverts dont look that bad unless you are a videofile like me. I hate to say it but it is the truth!

Chris

January 18, 2008 1:37 PM

Blu-Ray sucks. Why would consumers WANT to support something that costs more with no additional benefit (except a TAD more storage space... irrelevant)?

All we need now is for people to not be dumb and go out buying Blu-Rau discs. A regular DVD on an up-converting DVD player looks excellent.

The power is yours!

Anonymous

January 18, 2008 1:37 PM

Just a couple of rebuttals to some of the absurd comments:

(1) Blu-ray has superior specifications in terms of picture quality. While 1080p may be equal, but Blu-ray has a much higher bit-rate.

The fact that studios will begin to utilize this, will result in better looking picture with less artifacting, etc.

(2) Cut your losses and return your HD DVD products for store credit. The end is near and Paramount and Universal will be told by the largest retailers to shape up. In 6 months, there will no longer be any HD DVD content available.

(3) After a year of dealing with a format war, and the continuous spread of misinformation, it's about time that articles begin to discuss the real battle, which is downloaded content versus traditional media. Apparently Steve Jobs thinks that highly compressed video and pre-historic audio is the way of the future.

Ron M.

January 18, 2008 1:50 PM

Yep, if Toshiba would make a simple, easy to use HD DVD recorder/player, they would kick BD out of the county.

Remember the old VHS tape days when you'd buy a 4-pack of blank tapes at the supermarket? Then you'd stick one in the player and when something good came on TV you'd just hit "record" and tape it while you watched it, or "set the timer" and tape it while you were away. "Hey, that's a good football game coming on, I'm gonna tape it."

Or we'd tape movie after movie off of Cinemax or HBO. I still have several hundred movies (2 or 3 per tape at ELP speed) I recorded in that manner. Of course, they're not razor sharp HD images, but they're fine to watch on a Saturday afternoon with some popcorn.

Now, for most people, that's no longer possible. Let Toshiba create this with HD-DVD, and they will devour the market like a tsunami.


Many of us very quickly built up huge tape libraries in exactly that manner.

mock

January 18, 2008 2:14 PM

To the Hd-Dvd fan boys how exactly is Hd-Dvd superior?
Price. No, price is irrelevant all technology prices fall with age saying a lesser tech is better because of price is lame,
I can buy floppies for pennies does this make them better than CDs?
Software/features. No, it has nothing to do with the physical aspects of the disks what you can do one you can do on the other.
Capacity. Yes. Both present and projected capacities are higher for Blueray.
Resolution. As I understand this is the same for both.
So how is Hd-0Dvd better? As I see it the only aspects of Hd-Dvd that make it better are superficial.

AM

January 18, 2008 2:46 PM

Blu-ray is also leaving HD-DVD in the dust when it comes to computer platforms.

LG just announced a dual format player - it plays both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray but only records to Blu-Ray (at 6x speed). They chose to record to Blu-ray due to the higher speed and capacity.

HD-DVD only offers 1x disks on the market. Blu-ray offers 4x disks and is introducing 6x disks soon.

HD-DVD is developing a new 51 gig triple layer disk while Blu-ray is developing a 200 gig disk (they have already created and tested 100 gig disks - Panasonic and TDK).

The thinner distance to the data layer on Blu-ray is allowing leaps of storage capacity and speed.

daveyd

January 18, 2008 2:51 PM

ive never read so much uninformed drivel in all my life. HDDVD fanbois - go and research all of the following:
Codecs used
Hardware supporters
PC drives
sony formats...look up industry standard recording devices, betamax and mindisc, they may not have made it as a commercial product, but BOTH were industry standard products for PROFESSIONALS
Studio support
Read the rumours and facts coming out of the hollywood gossips..hddvd is heading for the door
people dont want cheap players, ebay anyone?

i could go on, but frankly, if you hddvd supporters havent done your research and honestly think that hddvd has a future, then your not worth wasting my time on

snaggatoof

January 18, 2008 3:05 PM

blu-ray discs are expensive because the big retailers are overcharging. i buy ALL of my blu-rays from a small independent shop for under $16.99 new. i'm sure people wouldn't complain if they found a shop that sells em like that.

Al

January 18, 2008 3:14 PM

Tons of misconceptions and falsehhods listedin the comments. Toshiba had nothing to do with the development of VHS - it was JVC. Older movies, when properly "done" can look far superior on a High-Def (either format)than standard DVD - such as THD WILD BUNCH - a 40 year old title that, at least on BLU looks like it was filmed yesterday.

Don

January 18, 2008 4:32 PM

I am so happy that the DVD camp has defined what is superior. Now I can get a trailer instead of a house because it cost less. Size is not important. Next I will trade in my BMW and get me a kia rio because it is a superior product.

Oh an to the people with highly compressed downloaded movies that can't tell the differance. I am going to put my highly compressed video on my crappy 103 inch projection because that is also a cheaper superior product. I will have to take back my Blu-ray and XBR4 and watch my cheap compressed video because it looks no different then HD on disc.

Lets try this again. Size does matter, specs do matter. Price is not a factor in a superior format, if it were VHS would still be around. Compressed video on the internet does not have the quality in picture or sound to compete against blu-ray or hd-dvd on a quality HDTV. Upconvert does not have the quality or sound to compete. Just like Records taken care of sound better then CD's and Cd's sound better then MP3's compressed. Watch a movie on cable and compare it to Hi-def dvd's. Not even close. On a phillips, visio, westinghouse or front projection it might look some what close. Buy a Pioneer, Sony, Panasonic, or Samsung, maybe LG. Stop crying over spilled milk Toshiba jumped into bed with the microsoft evil empire whos goal was to keep this war going just to sell movies to teenage boys through the Xbox in the hopes to fool them into believing that there Visio TV hd downloads were as good a HD-DVD. If microsoft wanted to they could lay down a cool billion and kill Blu-Ray today.

daveb

January 18, 2008 4:51 PM

I still own a beta max, i remmber when the VHS won out. But, now the beta max is a priceless icon of the 80s. At least HD-DVD player owners have that to look forward to.

Me

January 18, 2008 6:17 PM

In this whole Blu-ray vs HD-DVD war both sides have forked out loads of money to get their format to win, some more than others. I personally went for Blu-ray becasue it had more capactity and I heard Blockbuster decided to go with Blu-Ray. Toshiba's lost becasue they looked more at the movie studios not at the consumers in the sense of availability. I can guantee you more ppl rent movies than buy, so Blu-ray was able to touch a lot of consumers because of that.Seriously if blockbuster had backed HD-DVD Blu-ray would of been dead in the water. There is still a glimmer of hope though for HD-DVD if the porn indutry backs HD-DVD its all over for Blu-ray. I doubt this will happen though since more and more studio's are switching to blu-ray now. Please note though once the porn industry picks Blu-ray its over, we can put the final nail in HD-DVD's coffin.

P.S. To all those saying Blu-ray is an inferior format because of price over time like any technology the price will drop. Otherwise the formats are pretty similar no real gain over the over in picutre quality.

Sync

January 18, 2008 6:27 PM

))Price is not a factor in a superior format, if it were VHS would still be around.((

Come again? Think about it-- mechanical cartridge, tape that takes far longer to duplicate than optical discs, low reproduction quality-- VHS is notably more expensive to produce than ANY of the disk formats, and could hardly be called a "superior format."

No, Blu-Ray aceing out HD-DVD will breath extra life into the SD-DVD market, as the advantages are really not worth the cost. And those who buy Blu-Ray players will still be buying lots of SD-DVDs for content that isn't available on HD, as the selection of such content is impressively large.

Frankly, I suspect that HD-DVD is just the first to fall, Blu-Ray could be next. Personally I'm going to wait until a completely nonmechanical distribution media is available-- flash memory based would be fine-- and I'm with one of the other posters here-- I don't want to download my movies, I need something tangible before I cough up any $$$...

KWS

January 18, 2008 7:49 PM

Blu-ray is more useful because of the larger capacity per layer and is clearly winning with consumers, major studios and independent producers. The only thing HD-DVD ever had going for it was cheap players, and in this case you got what you paid for. Thank goodness this war is almost over without too much struggle, so we can get on with enjoying HD content.

supernaught360

January 19, 2008 8:21 PM

Hmm... Wasn't Sony the company that cried foul when the HD Television manufacturers like Samsung and Sharp were celebrating huge price drops on their flat panel displays in '07, worrying that prices were dropping "too fast?" LISTEN: Sony's business model is one of consumer control, not consumer choice. It ceases to be a "fair" market when corporations spend millions to artificially create demand for a product by monopolizing content. To say Microsoft is playing the same game is ludicrous, when Sony has 5 in the deck of seven major HDDVD producers. I'ts educational to point out that in the "game console" arena (360 vs PS3), Third party publishers largely CHOSE to abandon PS3 exclusivity to benefit from the 360's larger installed base (due to 360's year head-start), and weren't "bought out" by Microsoft. If the "Big M" were to play that game in the HD wars, which they certainly have the capital to do so, it would be the reverse. So you monkeytards that compare Msoft's model to Sony's are plain selling something. And given the choice, consumers will ALWAYS choose the more affordable over the more expensive, especially when the quality is the same. Is that wrong, in some of your misguided, Sony-humping Brand loyalty? Sony wanted the DVD revolution to start over, with prices comparable to the first DVD players. HD DVD partners offered a cheaper, more reasonable solution that offers the SAME DAMN QUALITY, and allows manufacturers to build ALL NEW HDDVD PLAYERS at low infrastrucral change, and at lower cost. You Sony-tards want to pay more for a format that has NO PLACE in Hi def entertainment, since 50 GIGS is WAY overkill for movies and games, and way more expensive to produce. Hey, I wanna save $. What can I say?

Y-Men (no relation to X-men)

January 21, 2008 5:44 PM

Its simple... I'm not going to toss out my dvd library of 700 titles. I'm gonna buy a HD-DVD. Its dirt cheap with excellent quality (upscaling 1080p) for my dvd's.

Blu-Ray see you in the next century when you're cheaper and have the consumer at heart and not in your pocket.

AM

January 21, 2008 7:10 PM

Supenug360, The HD-DVD vs. Blu-ray war was on three fronts: Video players, Game consoles, and Computer media drives. HD-DVD only tried to fight in the Video player front.

Blu-ray standard in the PS3 won the game console front.

Blu-ray storing more and having higher read/write speeds won the computing front.

Higher studio adoption of Blu-ray won the video player front.

This was a different game than beta vs. VHS which was fought on only one front.

supernaught360

January 22, 2008 3:04 AM

Attention fellow "early adopters" and all-around tech-geeks: Blu-ray and HD-DVD have largely been battling out on ONE FRONT ONLY: The entertainment media distribution front. Which was lost by blu-ray on the game console front due to lackluster PS3 sales and game developer critisism of the unwieldy PS3 codec. "AM" mentions "higher studio adoption" of blu-ray. That's laughable, since they "adopted" precisely nothing, and were bought out by Sony as incentive to distribute Blu-ray only. Did the consumers have a say in that? No one ever offered critisism of Blu-ray discs as a viable storage medium for user files and back-up data, or for storing entertainment media, but ask yourselves this question: When both formats (Hd-dvd and Blu-ray) offer THE SAME EXACT VISUAL AND AUDIO fidelity on newly purchased HD TV's for experiencing Hi-def movie content, do any of you think that the average consumer cares about the specs, when they don't know the difference between HDMI and component inputs? Of course not. They DO however carefully consider what they are willing to spend for such content, and the Blu-ray medium is decidedly out of reach of most consumers for the foreseeable future, and price drops don't happen 'til: a.) a product reaches market saturation, thereby requiring the manufacturer to develop new technology to keep making profit, or B.) A competitive product forces price drops on BOTH sides in a healthy struggle to increase market share. Sony seeks to eliminate the latter, in what USED to be considered unfair business practice, before corporate lobbying entities subjugated those anti-trust provisions with huge $$$'s. EA was able to secure sole rights to the NFL liscense in a similar manner on the gaming front. Does this make anyone happy? Compression rates and bit rates have ZERO to do with anything. As long as the hardware decompresses and displays the same quality image - the average joe, the MAJORITY of consumers don't care. Nor should they. A bargain is a bargain, and Blu-ray players are no bargain when their HD-DVD counterpart functions in THE EXACT SAME MANNER. Anyone who says anything else has sold their soul to some deranged technological ideology where bit-rates(elves) and data compression (unicorns) make some sort of discernible difference in the display fidelity, they emphatically DO NOT. Nor will the bigger disc-space (pixies) be a factor, unless you really expect gigs of bonus content to not be utilized to drive Blu-ray prices WAY up. If you believe THAT, I know where there's a leprechaun with a pot-o-free cash. He's got a beach-house in the Himalayas.

Tex

February 16, 2008 1:26 AM

Well, as a 30+ year technician, and an oner of both an HD DVD player, as well as a Blu-Ray, I can state, without any doubt, that the images, on HD are far smoother, and less noisy, than Blu-Ray. Listen up, Sony-aholics!, Sony has foisted some of the poorest designed and built products of the last several years. Just check into the earky generation LCD projection, and LCOS projection T.V.s. It's all there, people.Over-priced,Over engineered, and poor quality all around.

Tru

March 1, 2008 1:11 PM

The consumer always wins by voting with the dollar. Once the movie industry sees Blu-ray discs staying on shelves and retail stores reducing orders for bluray players and disks. Like anything driven by the consumer, prices will drop to meet demand. The consumer doesn't give a crap about specs. Just look at all the Olevia and Vizio FP-TV's flying off store shelves.

As a consumer I just want the best quality in the lowest prices. HD-DVD gave me that at under $150, my price point for a high quality DVD player.

The Toshiba decision just made me now to have wait a couple more years for Blu-ray to come down in price. Since we're about to go into a recession, that just may be by next Christmas. In the mean time I have an excellent upscaling HD-DVD player.

For you Sony-aholics, I hope your happy with your $400 units. You helped hurry the conclusion of the format war. I should have my second or third generation higher quality Blu-ray for less than $150 by next year.

Thank you, Sony-aholics, for bringing the latest format war to a conclusion.

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Bloomberg Businessweek writers Peter Burrows, Cliff Edwards, Olga Kharif, Aaron Ricadela, and Douglas MacMillan, dig behind the headlines to analyze what’s really happening throughout the world of technology. Tech Beat covers everything from tech bellwethers like Apple, Google, and Intel and emerging new leaders such as Facebook to new technologies, trends, and controversies.

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