Joe The Plumber---No Mas

Posted by: David Kiley on October 16, 2008

Joe The Plumber, star of the third and last the debate between John McCain and Barack Obama, is now the star of a new ad from the McCain camp.

This ad is a mess. Not only does it look like an Obama ad in the beginning, save the mug-shot of McCain that kicks it off, but it is more confused on the screen than a screen grab from Bloomberg TV.

Citing newspaper headlines, the ad used the Pittsburgh Tribune Review (McCain is still contesting Pa.), a Republican leaning newspaper, and Rubert Murdoch-owned New York Post.

The graphics that say Obama raises taxes on seniors, working families, etc. is not playing with anybody except hardcore Republicans.

Joe the plumber has been beaten to death on the airwaves since last night. This just adds to the pile….and i mean pile.

Reader Comments

Brent Johnson

October 17, 2008 1:31 PM

Exactly what is untruthful about that. I AM A JOE PLUMBER. I do employee over 100 people and my taxes will go up, despite paying over 35% already!!!

Why? I'll pay my share but why do hardworking people pay more than those who won't work!!!

Obama wants me to trickle down my success to those who lack work ethic. I trickle down my success to my employees, my church, and to those that I believe God has led me to support.

I DON'T NEED THE GOVERNMENT TO TELL ME WHO TO SHARE MY SUCCESS WITH!!!!!!!!!

Larry Linn

October 17, 2008 1:51 PM

Joe the Plumber gave more interviews yesterday, than Palin hasgiven since she was nominated.

mike

October 17, 2008 1:55 PM

Maybe if Joe gets paid for this he can pay his back taxes and get his plumbers license.

Greg

October 17, 2008 2:19 PM

Brent- That's what makes you a republican. AND I might add, you are in NO WAY an average Joe when you own a company that size.

However, the story with Joe is completely broken for simple reasons:
McCain uses him to suggest that he is an "average" guy whose taxes would go up under Obama.
Problem is, he is nowhere near average AND it turns out his taxes would actually go down under Obama.

oops!

Donnelle

October 17, 2008 2:24 PM

We are also a small business owner. We
employ less than 100 people & make over
250,000 a year. We cannot afford insurance for our employees and we definitely can't afford to have Obama as
our president. I agree with Mr. Johnson!
Why should we share what we work hard for
with whose who won't!!

Martin O'Regan Pevchikh

October 17, 2008 2:29 PM

Selfish, arrogant people like Brent, the earlier poster, exist eveywhere don't they....everyone for themselves. I hate to break it to you Brent but God does not talk to you nor does he guide you, selfish people like you are on your own there. What is it about Americans and religion!!!

Larry Linn

October 17, 2008 2:32 PM

Joe the Plumber gave more interviews yesterday, than Palin has given sinc she was nominated.

Jack Parr

October 17, 2008 2:34 PM

Well put Brent. When are people going to wake up and actually analyze what Obama is really saying. It all leads in the same direction. "I know what is better for you than you do."
Spreading the wealth does not equate to happy fun times for everyone. It means hardworking folks like us are stuck with the bill while less-enthusiastic members of society sit and collect. These same people don't mind being treated like subjects as long as they feel good about themselves and have a idol to worship. A bunch of sheep praising the wolf that would take their freedoms. Makes me sick but what do you expect from a people who have become familiar with 30 sec media and favor reading football stats rather than political stats.

JP

laugh@brent

October 17, 2008 2:51 PM

Everyone who makes less than $250,00 lacks work ethic now? Wow. How do you feel about those wall street goons making millions and millions paying EVEN LESS taxes than you? The people who employ small businesses will be more willing to enlist your services if they have more money to spend. Plus, you would be paying ~3% more only on the amount over $250,000 (income, not revenue) plus there is a 50% credit in there. The real Joe the Plumber would actually be getting a tax cut anyway in reality. If you're in the top 5% of all business in the US, then good for you.

Average American

October 17, 2008 2:59 PM

I think these Obama dornes will be sadly awaken on election day! The fact of the matter is that you can't trust "polls" to give a true picture of the situation.

There exists significant reason for people to provide misleading information to these polls. As the link below demonstrates, the Obama Impire demands harsh repercutions on anyone who expreses a dissenting view! Think Hitler or Stalin squashing any dissent! It is sad to see people get excited about supporting oppression in the form of this “post turtle” Obama.

http://www.lufkindailynews.com/search/content/news/stories/2008/10/07/secret_service.html

Say NO to Tyranny before it is too late!

Socialism/Communisim will never work in this freedom loving country!

NoBama, NoBama NoBama!

Average American

October 17, 2008 3:02 PM

Beware of telling the truth to an Obama poll taker!

Think Hitler or Stalin crushing dissent!

http://www.lufkindailynews.com/search/content/news/stories/2008/10/07/secret_service.html

Bonnie

October 17, 2008 3:04 PM

THIS IS A PRIME EXAMPLE OF THE TOTAL DISHONESTY, LIES, MANIPULATIONS, AND LIES BY OMISSION (NOT TELLING THE WHOLE TRUTH) THAT THE SOCIOPATHIC McCAIN CAMPAIGN HAS CONTINUED TO USE. THESE ARE BUSH'S OLD GROUP THAT PUSHED BUSH TO WIN IN 2000 AND 2004 AND YOU SEE WHAT THAT GOT US!

THESE ARE PAID BY THE WEALTHY MURDOCK, WHO WAS ABLE TO CHANGE THE AND HAS VIOLATED ANTI-TRUST LAWS BY HAVING, NOT ONLY CONTROL OF MOST MAJOR MEDIA OUTLETS (TELEVISION, CABLE, INTERNET, RADIO) BUT MURDOCK MAKES BILLIONS FROM DISCORD...CAUSING ANY CONTROVERSY THAT HE CAN. HE ALSO MAKES BILLIONS AND KEEPS BILLIONS WITH THE PRESENT TAX LOOPHOLES!

HE WANTS ANOTHER IN THE WHITE HOUSE THAT CAN EASILY BE MANIPULATED TO DO WHAT WALL STREET AND BIG CORPORATIONS WANT. McCAIN'S DIRE NEED TO BE PRESIDENT (HIS LAST CALL) PUSHES HIM TO ALLOW THIS SAME ACTIVITY THAT HE HATED BUSH (MURDOCK) DOING TO HIM IN 2000!

IN OTHER WORDS, McCAIN HAS SOLD HIS SOUL TO THE DEVIL FOR THIS PRESIDENCY!

I THINK OF THOSE SOCIOPATHIC MINDS CLICKING AWAY IN SOME QUIET ROOM THINKING OF THE NEXT ATTACK! IF SOMETHING HAPPENS TO BARACK OBAMA...SOMETHING HORRIBLE, THERE WILL BE NO ONE TO BLAME BUT McCAIN, PALIN, AND MURDOCK!!!

I HOPE THAT MOST AMERICANS ARE SMARTER THAN THIS. I WAS CURIOUS WHEN McCAIN BROUGHT UP JOE, THE PLUMBER AT THE DEBATE. I THINK HE WAS A PLANT AT AN APPEARANCE OF BARACK OBAMA AND SET UP TO PRETEND THAT HE WAS THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT HE REALLY WAS.

ADDITIONALLY, ANY WAY THAT YOU PUT IT, THE JOE, THE PLUMBER WOULD MAKE MONEY WITH OBAMA'S PLAN, INSTEAD OF McCAIN'S! IF HE ONLY MADE A TOTAL OF $250,000. IN INCOME, HE WOULD NOT BE TAXED, HE WOULD HAVE BUSINESS DEDUCTIONS AND PERSONAL TAX DEDUCTIONS THAT WOULD, OF COURSE LOWER HIS TAXES AND GIVE HIM $500. MORE ON OBAMA'S PLAN.

IF HE MADE A MILLION DOLLARS, AFTER DEDUCTIONS, HE WOULD ONLY HAVE $250,000, OR LESS, WHICH WOULD STILL HAVE HIM UNDER ANY TAXING GUIDELINES AND BRING HIM NOT ONLY THE TAX BREAKS HE HAS NOW, UNDER THE PRESENT TAX RULES, BUT $500. MORE UNDER OBAMA'S PLAN!

JOE, THE PLUMBER, WAS A BIG LIE, USED BY THE McCAIN CAMPAIGN AND REPUBLICANS TO SET OBAMA UP FOR FAILURE! THE REPUBLICANS ACTUALLY HAVE MORE TO LOSE THAN McCAIN IN THIS POLITICAL YEAR. AT 76, IF HE WON AND FINISHED FOUR YEARS, HE WOULD NOT BE ABLE, IN MY MIND FOR MORE. PALIN IS CLOSE AT HIS HEELS AND HAS ALREADY STATED THAT SHE WILL RUN IN 2012, IN FOUR YEARS!!!

I STILL REMIND AMERICANS THAT "UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL! WE HAVE TO UNIFY IN ORDER TO STAY SOLVENT AND FOCUSED! FOR ALL OF THE RELIGION THAT THE McCAIN/PALIN TICKET AND THE REPUBLICAN'S CLAIM...THERE IS NOT ONE THING THAT JESUS WOULD DO THE SAME!

THIS IS THE CHRISTIAN WAY TO COMMIT MURDER...MURDER SOMEONE'S CHARACTER, AND THE LOW-DOWN, NASTY, CORRUPT, AND LYING NATURE OF McCAIN'S CAMPAIGN IS THE ABSOLUTE WORST THING THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN AND THE REST OF THE WORLD FEELS THE SAME! BELIEVE ME, IF SOMEONE SAID SOMETHING NASTY ABOUT McCAIN WITH THE PRESS THERE, IT WOULD BE OUT IN A MINUTE OR LESS!

HOWEVER, THE SECRET SERVICE, (STILL UNDER REPUBLICAN GOVERNANCE) WILL NOT NOW ALLOW PRESS INTO A PALIN RALLY!!! WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU!

THAT IS NOT LEGAL, NOR DEMOCRATIC FOR A COUNTRY THAT ESPOUSES DEMOCRACY AROUND THE WORLD AND EVERYONE KNOWS IT!

Bonnie

October 17, 2008 3:17 PM

I HAD A DIFFERENT OPINION, BUT THIS SITE WILL NOT PROCESS MY COMMENT!

HOW SAD..DEMOCRACY IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS GONE!!!

GOD BLESS AMERICA, BECAUSE THE PRESS WON'T DO RIGHT BY ANYONE...ANYMORE!!!

MathMan

October 17, 2008 3:33 PM

Has anyone bothered to do the math to determine if there is a substantive shred of credibility in Joe Wurzelbacher's claim that Barack Obama's tax policies are going to prevent him from buying the business that is his American dream?

Let’s try this on for size:

If Joe buys the plumbing business and nets $300,000, Obama has made no bones about the fact that Joe will be paying a higher rate of tax on the amount he makes above $250,000. His marginal tax rate on the $50,000 of income above $250,000 will go up from 36% (the current rate) to 39%.

So for fear that his taxes on $300,000 will go up a whooping $1,500 ($50,000 * .03), we're supposed to believe that Barack Obama’s tax plan is dissuading Joe from buying a business that will otherwise move him up to the upper echelons of the American economic elite?

Come on America, don't buy into this trust-baby perpetrated hog-wash!

If Joe Wurzelbacher's not going to buy this business, it’s not because of a paltry $1,500 tax increase on $300,000 of income. More likely it's the fear of buying a business that could easily fail in the teeth of a recession brought on by eight years of disastrous trickle-down economic policies that John McCain still shamelessly promotes as the solution to this country's economic problems.

Richard

October 17, 2008 3:43 PM

Giving middle class consumers (90% of the country)a tax break and asking those who have benefitted from unfair tax policy for the last 8 years to pay their fair share makes sense to me. I am a business owner and my personal income is well over $250k. You know why it makes sense to me? There arent enough people like me to keep the American economy going, the consumer has always been the gas in the engine of our economy and helping them out makes sense. Stop thinking about yourself all the time and think about the COUNTRY. Greed is never a good thing and will always lead to the calamity we are now experiencing. Help the consumer, they are the ones that keep us afloat. Are you really saying that the middle class pay no taxes? people that make 40-250k a year pay no taxes? Do yourself a favor and think for yourself and not just repeat either parties talking points.

exasperated4

October 17, 2008 5:26 PM

HAHAHAA, they misspelled the word "everybody." After you see the Joe clip, the word flashes up:

EVERBODY?

That is hiAAAArious.

Dieselralph

October 17, 2008 5:28 PM

You need a new accountant. Nobody actually pays the 35% tax rate. Corporations only pay 25% since the Bush tax cuts. Anyway someone making only $40K a year pays a higher percentage of their salary in taxes if you count all taxes not just Federal Income tax. Throw in sales tax, property tax, etc and at $40K you pay more than 50% just to exist and have shelter. If you make over $250K a year don't cry because you are just over broke. You will still take home more than $160K. That is plenty to live a good life. Sorry you may have to buy the new car every 4 years instead of every 3 years. Or get the 5 series vs the 7er. I make $90K and my wife does as well. We have saved and she quits in Dec when we have our baby. We are giving up $90K to have a baby and raise our child with a mom at home. My car is 12 yrs old and hers is 4. We will live within in our means and enjoy he tax breaks we get for making less than $250K. I wish I could make $250K and would be pleased to pay the taxes at that rate.

exasperated4

October 17, 2008 5:42 PM

Oh, and to Brent's comment, it is completely ridiculous and ignorant to assume that those who make under $250,000 a year "lack work ethic" or are "those who don't work." I find that statement to be incredibly offensive, in fact. I work hard, have been in the workforce for 16 years straight (half my life now), but no matter how hard I work, I have never made over $60k a year in my life. So you say I "lack work ethic?"

And since when does more pay = harder work? Seems to me it's usually the other way around. Just ask a ditch-digger.

Brent, if you actually do "employee" (sic) over 100 people, then I imagine you have a big enough business so that you are doing pretty darn well money-wise, and any raise in tax you might see will not have as catastrophic of an effect on you as it would have on those of us down here in the lower brackets (I'm still paying 30% of my gross income in taxes, mind you, so I'm not much better off than you, percentage-wise).

So yeah, maybe you won't be able to afford that new SUV you've been looking at this year if you get a bit of a tax hike. Or your two-week vacation in the Bahamas. Maybe you'll have to settle for somewhere local like Vegas instead. But if your employees don't get a tax break, it could mean if their five-year-old car breaks down, it doesn't get repaired for three weeks and they have to take the bus to work (if there is even a functional public transportation system where you live--not likely), or maybe they can't buy food for their kids, or perhaps they miss a house payment or two. And, if I had to guess, you probably don't even provide your employees with health insurance, because that's more profit out of your pocket, so if they (o their spouse or child) get sick and they have to miss work, they will REALLY be up a creek.

I'm sure glad *I* don't have to work for your company.

Leigh Ann

October 17, 2008 5:46 PM

Boo hoo! Brent Johnson makes over $250,000 a year and he'll have to pay higher taxes. WAAAAAHHHH!

Aaron

October 17, 2008 5:59 PM

Personally, I have no issues with someone who makes over 250 Grand a year, paying more taxes. As long as those taxes are used to fund healthcare, education, and scientific research...not an endless and meaningless war.

Drew Dale

October 17, 2008 6:12 PM

The fact remains that the specific Joe the Plumber who McCain is using for ads lied about many things DIRECTLY related to this issue, as has been widely reported now. It appears he was simply used by McCain to make a false argument. And you are simply repeating McCain's talking points, which has me distrust you.

Your post is full of strange comparisons which don't hold water. You 'employee' over 100 people, but people less fortunate than you just "won't work" or inherently "lack work ethic"? Do you know how many people have lost their savings and pensions through the manipulation of the stock market by corporations and high-money investors? Do you know how many companies are laying off employees because they were banking on false numbers to prop up their business / stocks? How dare you blame the people laid off for the sins of greedy investors and poor business practices while we hand them BILLIONS, so much that core social services can't be funded? If McCain had had his way and Social Security was privatized, the panic in the US would be out of control because Tens of MILLIONS would not have retirement through SS anymore.

You sure think you know everything about every worker who is not you, but you don't seem very well informed. And your greed astounds me.

And where is your compassion, which I would hope your church teaches? Also, though your belief is your god is good for you, there is supposed to be a separation of church and state in this country - it is the very foundation of the establishment of this country. The idea is supposed to be that each and every American is free to pursue their happiness with rights protections FOR ALL, not mob rule by majority vote to strip away any rights or benefits you might not currently need or want specifically for yourself.

Trickle-down economics, as pressed by GOP economists like McCain's economic advisors
(Phil Graham), has shafted most Americans for decades. Do you really want more of the same?

Lastly, I applaud your saying you are helping people and employing so many people, but it's hard for me to cry too much for you as a business owner with over 100 employees. Tens of Millions of Americans are suffering in this crisis, the bailout of which is draining our coffers, paid for by our very own taxes.

well, brent

October 17, 2008 7:28 PM

Well, Brent, what about the 35% you are already paying. That must have you pretty steamed, no? And what is the math you did, exactly, to determine that 35% your share but 39% is not?

Its funny, wall street is begging, literally, the feds to stimulate the economy by recapitalizing the consumer (e.g. mortgage forgiveness, tax breaks). Where does that money come from? That would be you. Somehow, that's ok, but then if Obama proposes the same thing, he is a red devil? Be consistent. Either you are a libertarian or you arent (hint: there is not a libertarian to be found on wall street these days).

krystof lopaur

October 17, 2008 7:29 PM

Well, Brent, what about the 35% you are already paying. That must have you pretty steamed, no? And what is the math you did, exactly, to determine that 35% your share but 39% is not?

Its funny, wall street is begging, literally, the feds to stimulate the economy by recapitalizing the consumer (e.g. mortgage forgiveness, tax breaks). Where does that money come from? That would be you. Somehow, that's ok, but then if Obama proposes the same thing, he is a red devil? Be consistent. Either you are a libertarian or you arent (hint: there is not a libertarian to be found on wall street these days).

therealstevef

October 17, 2008 7:51 PM

Brent, I don't know Joe, but you are not Joe. Joe's business doen't have 100 employees. Also, BO doesn't want to trikle down. That's the failed Republican policy we have tried twice and its failed both times. Because wealthy people use the extra money to save.

You will do much better under an Obama adminstration, just like you did under the Clinton adminstration when you likely started your business. While you likely got a heafty tax break from Bush, your workers likely got stiffed with a huge increase in health care costs and the cost of gas.

Also, I believe God wants you to help everyone that is willing to help themselves, not just Republicans...

greg laden

October 17, 2008 10:37 PM

You are a joe the plumber? Joe the plumber employs no one, and is in fact not even a licensed plumber. He, John McCain, and Sarah Palin are a pack of liars and cheats (oh yes, speaking of taxes, Joe the Plumber appears to be a tax evader).

D

October 17, 2008 10:45 PM

Brent Johnson writes:

"…Why? I'll pay my share but why do hardworking people pay more than those who won't work!!!…"

…The war in Iraq.

Oh, and now the bailouts.

Also, Brent, people work. In case you didn't know—people work. Including those people who work for you. And taxes are not about whether you work hard; it's about the income you generate and what is needed for taxes.

Again, that's taxes to pay for the Iraq War.… And, the bailouts.… And the continuation of supporting state and federal budgets, et al., that we do even when we are not experiencing hard times with the economy and a war.

JJ

October 18, 2008 5:47 AM

Mr. Johnson:

Do you have a problem with Obama's tax credit for every new employee you hire?

Is the opportunity field level if the playing field is not? Have you never noticed that each additional $50,000 in income generally requires less effort to attain than the previous $50,000 did, and certainly less than the first $50,000 did?

Do you realize how bigoted it is to assume the reason you are successful is because others lack your work ethic?

Has nobody alerted you that our current economic malaise represents the final meltdown of Reagan's "trickle down" hypothesis?

Did you not realize that the US government is not a "them", but from its inception "We, the People"?

Sick of Lies

October 18, 2008 10:43 AM

Joe the plumber my a**! Please, just admit that your candidate is a mess and move on, stop with the hate and lies already! Joe the plant also has back taxes owed to the government... the McCain campaign should have done more check on the guy before making him their mascot.

Lisa Delamater

October 18, 2008 11:01 AM

Exactly why Bush/McCain trickle-down philosophy has ruined our economy. You wealthy people sell goods and services to the middle class but you are so greedy you don't even understand that if we don't have money to spend, your business suffers. And don't you dare tell me I don't have a work ethic. I own a small business that can barely make ends meet and my husband and I both work at 2 other jobs. How much more money does exxon mobile need? You all should be ashamed.

Mark Grote

October 18, 2008 11:02 AM

Having worked as a television commercial producer, will grant you that the production value of this spot is annoying and distracting, but the rest of your comments are off the topic and equaling distrated. For instance, what difference does it make what newspaper McCain quotes. You were expecting the Daily Kos perhaps?

The sad commentary on all of this is how an average citizen is treated by the man who wants to be his President. How low do you have to sink to attack average Americans simply because he asked a question. Is THAT now somehow out of bounds from now on?

What is overtly apparent to me is that you want to talk about everything except the very thing that has caused this uproar in the first place: Obama's comment! Why do you care more about what newspaper McCain quotes than Obama's quote itself? You notice all these little details, but ignore the elephant in the room.

The point I think McCain is trying to make about taxes is that if you redistribute any wealth at all, whether you think it or not, we are ALL going to pay for that. It's going to come from OUR Gov't, the same Gov't we ALL pay taxes for. Why don't you examine the issue instead of reactions to it.

Live on Joe the Plumber! You have put a face on Obama's tax cuts and now America can see who they truly effect.

Brent "fraud" Johnson

October 18, 2008 11:03 AM

What will you do when you no longer have any customers? It's about rebuilding the middle class not poor people you ninnie. YOUR A FRAUD. You do not own a business with over 100 people. You are as authentic as the campaign you support. Nice try.... OBAMA BIDEN 2008

RC

October 18, 2008 11:37 AM

Yeah, but you do need the government to fix the roads, fend off crime and natural disasters, educate your workers, and generally keep your community orderly.

The vast majority of people who receive 'welfare" are usually a) physically disabled, b) mentally ill, or c) getting supplemental income while working two jobs because they're single parents who can't feed their kids.

Or they lost their jobs the last time you resisted letting anyone tell you what to do with their money--because you spent it on a bunch of consumer crap from China and helped drain the manufacturing jobs out of the country.

Actual cases of abuse are much rarer than they were in the '70s and '80s--I work with the mentally ill and sometimes *they* get their benefits taken away by mistake. So people actually trying to game the system have a much harder time.

ctr5000

October 18, 2008 11:50 AM

Mr Johnson,
1) If you have over $250k taxable income, yes, your taxes will go up by 3% only for the portion of that taxable income that is over $250.
2) If you have over $250k in taxable income, I'm not feeling that sorry for you.
3) How long will you be in business if the economy keeps nose diving and you lose your customers?
4)Senator Obama's tax plan is designed to improve the economy and to create customers for your business.
5) Contrary to the popular Republican mantra, businesses DO NOT create jobs. Customers create jobs.

Don PAxson

October 18, 2008 1:28 PM

The govt just transferred 700 billion officially, 2 trillion unofficially to YOU. (that is if you arent full of it like Joe the plumber---a liar)---so if you want to complain about redistribution of wealth, then sell your assets because without this socialist bailout for the rich they would be worthless...

davidf

October 18, 2008 2:01 PM

Yeah right...you're a republican Bot...and nobody believes YOU...all you trickle down to anyone is what's left on your dingle before you leave the restroom of the RNC
Telemarketing and Bot Attack Strategy Room....

How dare you believe that lower income people are only
due a Trickle Down of the Wealth from the Sprinklers on your
Golf Course

Ken Crump

October 18, 2008 2:35 PM

I think what the people of this country need to remember is that the answer to the question ( Joe The Plumber )asked is far more important than the person who asked it.

Hank

October 18, 2008 3:44 PM

Interesting how "Joe the plumber" is not even really a plumber. Even more interesting is the fact that "joe the plumber" owes taxes. This is someone who doesn't pay his taxes. No wonder the republican want to use him in their campaign. Their motto should be "We don't want a tax increase, in fact, just like Joe the plumber, we don't even want to pay our taxes."
As for Mr. Johnson who is a plumber and employs 100 people. Great for you. You have achieved the american dream. You are successful, you are the boss of 100 people. You pay 35% in taxes. Guess how many people would love to be able to say that? I can understand that it is not pleasant to learn that your taxes might go up, but I am sure that you will still be among the top 1% earners in our country. And do you know why hardworking people pay more than those who won't work? Because those who won't work have no money to pay taxes. But let's try your system for a while. Let's have hardworking people not pay taxes (just like those who don't work) and see how many teachers, firefighters, policemenm etc... we'll be able to afford. Maybe if we weren't paying $10 billion/month on a stupid war we might have some relief. And if all those greedy businesses on Wall street had not been so greedy (just like those who don't want to pay taxes) we wouldn't be where we are now.

Jamie Chant

October 18, 2008 7:08 PM

To Brent Johnson:

I only employ four people, so I don't know what it's like to run a business as complex as yours.

People who don't work -- most of whom are either retirees, full-time students, disabled people including veterans, single parents who can't get daycare, and, increasingly, people who lost their jobs but are looking for work -- generally don't pay income taxes because they don't have enough income.

People who WON'T work, meaning people who have no excuse for working other than unwillingness, are as likely to be indolent trust-fund jet-setters whose income comes from other people working hard to get high returns on their investments as they are to be doing anything else. Abuse of the welfare system is mostly a myth nowadays, as most of the ways people used to cheat the system have been eliminated... if you doubt this call up your local social services office to see the kind of documentation people in real need have to show to get even non-cash assistance, and also look at how little the assistance available actually is -- barely enough for rent and food, when there's cash assistance at all.

"Hardworking" people are people like my employees, and, presumably, yours too. They'd get tax breaks under Obama's plan, which they need since their cost of living has gone up dramatically in the last few years and there are limits to how much we, their employers, can increase their wages in this economy.

It's unfortunate that the largest corporations pay little or no taxes due to their abuse of tax breaks and loopholes despite that theoretical 35% tax rate. If you're really paying the full 35% as a small-business owner, maybe you should look for another accountant, because I do know there are breaks available specifically for small businesses in general and you might also be eligible for other breaks based on the industry you're in, your location, etc.

People aren't slipping down out of the middle class because they lack work ethic. Many of them are working two or more jobs to give their kids a home in a safe neighborhood with good schools so they'll have a chance to go to college, but are still losing net income because of issues like the higher cost of food and gasoline, higher health-care costs, and higher mortgage costs whether due to variable-rates more than doubling their monthly payments or their lending institutions artificially inflating the value of their homes above real market value. These people need tax relief. The corporate fat cats who weakened our economy by creating a massive pyramid scheme built on pretending that bundling many high-risk investments together magically turned them into assets worth more than the GDP of the entire world? THEY need to pay more taxes, not less.

It may be that a few people near the cutoff between small and large businesses, and between middle-class and wealthy Americans, will get caught in a bracket that shouldn't apply to them. (It can't be many, because our own small business associations agree that less than 2% of small business operators have enough income to potentially be affected by Obama's plan to eliminate the tax cut Bush gave people in the IRS's two highest brackets.)

Given his record, and his stated plans to help small businesses, by offering us incentives to create jobs and exempting us from fines for not offering health insurance, for example, I am pretty confident that Barack Obama would refine the details of his tax proposals in order to keep from putting any small business owners at an unfair disadvantage compared to either our corporate competitors or our own employees.

Most of all, though, I'm looking forward to Obama's plans finally making it possible for my employees (and me!) to get decent healthcare insurance coverage. It has upset me not to be able to offer insurance to my employees, but with such a small number it was like trying to buy individual coverage, and even at very high prices the coverage available would've had unreasonably high premiums, co-pays and exclusions.

Look carefully at Obama's plan, and whatever McCain is saying his plan is this week, and I think you'll come to the same conclusion I did: Barack Obama knows what America and its hard-working citizens need, and he knows how to provide it to us while eliminating waste like the failed partial privatization of Medicare.

Carl Stempel

October 19, 2008 2:42 AM

Brent, it appears that you are doing a lot better than Joe, who is no more a plumber than you are. When you say 35%, do you mean for your federal income taxes? There is no way that you are paying more than 35% of you income on federal income taxes. I bet it is really MUCH less than 35%.

The tax rates that will go up under Obama are for income (after deductions)over $250,000. Obama is simply returning to the tax structure of the pre-Bush days when the economy and the society improved (lower crime, less poverty, less people stuck on welfare) under Clinton. Trickle down is a discredited theory and along with market fundamentalism it is what has gotten us into this huge mess where we have to bail out the unregulated "smartest guys in the room" while hamstrung by the huge debt rung up by Bush's tax breaks for those smart guys and war. This much is clear: as far as this stuff goes McCain is Bush.

If patriotic Americans support Obama, he will be able to close corporate tax loopholes, cut a lot of waste in the defense system (McCain is right about this) and build an early childhood education system that will actualize Bush's well intentioned but poorly conceived and pathetically implemented "no child left behind" program. We're going to rebuild this country from the middle and the bottom up and do it by combining the entrepreneurial and innovative spirit of capitalism with the love of freedom and genuine equal opportunity for all - Jefferson, Lincoln and MLK. We'll all be safer, healthier, have stronger families, and we'll be more influential in the world.

sammyBo

October 20, 2008 9:28 AM

This is the most silly ad I've ever seen. Does Mccain and his camp think Americans are not literate?

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News, opinions, inflammatory meanderings and occasional ravings about the world of advertising, marketing and media. By marketing editor Burt Helm, Innovation Editor Helen Walters, and senior correspondent Michael Arndt.

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