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October 18, 2006
Chinese companies not welcome in India?
It’s one thing for India to roll out the welcome map for Western multinationals looking to take advantage of Indian talent. But what happens when the companies that want to set up Indian R&D operations are from India's longtime rival, China? Huawei Technologies, China’s No. 1 telecom equipment company, has had a small R&D center in Bangalore for a few years but has had trouble winning business from Indian operators – and clearly one reason has been Indian worries about being too nice to a company founded by a former member of China’s People’s Liberation Army, the same People’s Liberation Army that back in the days of Mao and Nehru clashed with India over disputed territory along the mountainous border between the two countries. Now China’s other world-class telecom equipment maker, ZTE, is trying to break into India – and having similar problems. Last week, Indian telecom operator BSNL disqualified the Chinese company from bidding for contract worth $4 billion for GSM equipment. You might say, that’s just business – and since Motorola also got the axe from BSNL, there’s clearly no anti-Chinese bias.
But, as Indrajit Basu points out in this story from the Asia Times, Motorola’s exclusion actually might prove that in this bidding, the rule was No Chinese Allowed. ZTE, Basu writes, was excluded for the obvious reason that it’s a Chinese company. As for Motorola, the American company was only one degree away from a Chinese company:
Motorola declared in its tender offer earlier that it was sourcing a significant part of its equipment from Huawei, another Chinese vendor. According to India's intelligence agencies, like the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) and the Intelligence Bureau, Huawei has been "responsible for sweeping operations in the country". Consequently, the final bids have now narrowed down to just three European vendors, Ericsson, Nokia and Siemens.
The timing of the move against the two Chinese companies is odd. Chinese President Hu Jintao is scheduled to visit India next month. Trade between the two countries is on the rise and with the North Korean nuclear test once again putting the spotlight on the nukes deal that India made with the U.S., Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh wants Beijing’s support, according to this wire story in the Hindustan Times: "From India's point of view, Hu's visit is crucial as it gives New Delhi another opportunity to win Beijing's backing - an influential member of the 45-nation Nuclear Suppliers Group - for the India-US civil nuclear deal and international nuclear cooperation. China can play a spoiler in NSG even after the nuclear deal clears the US Congressional process."
Meanwhile, Indian companies like Infosys, TCS and Satyam have been pushing aggressively into China, with no opposition from the Chinese. (Of course, China is determined to build a software industry of its own, so there’s certainly self-interest at play here. But still.) The moves against ZTE and Huawei show that a lot of Indians still aren’t ready to make nice with China.
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Blocking Chinese companies in telecom industry is not a news. The news is that sectors like household appliances are also Indian security concerns.
"New Delhi has long been wary of allowing Chinese to invest in sensitive sectors, such as ports and telecommunications, but the new edict will extend security reviews to all sectors, including such innocuous sectors as household appliances. For the first time China will be officially labeled a "security risk". "
Posted by: outofin at October 18, 2006 06:54 PM
India has the superiority problem that it is being shown by the people who post comment on this thread.
They claim that their industries are strong due to quality of the management. However, Indian industry survive of protectionism and without it there would be no Indian industy to speak of.
Most of the Indian industry are not competitive with the exception such as Wipro and Infosys. They can not produce quality product that they can export to other part of the world. They need to be protected from the Chinese industry by the Indian government in order to survive.
India a country whose people living in the same condition as the poor people in the sub-saharan region of Africa. I feel sorry for them.
Posted by: jcage at October 18, 2006 08:50 PM
Just finish reading the following articles, of course all from Indian news outlet. It should give you an idea of an average Indian psyche about themselves.
In most Indian minds back in India, India is the most powerful country in the world second only to US.
Why I mention this here under the topic about India and China? Because Indian media have been tirelessly tarnish China's image whenever and whereevr they can. But, they have spare no effort in self-promoting, albeit, under the slogan of "India shining", "India everywhere", "India---biggest democracy in the world".
It is not a surprise, in fact, almost certain, whenver China is mentioned, Indians will pop up their "democracy" "dictatorship", "free market" to defend India and ridicule China.
I have been to China and India many times. To my opinion based on what I know and see, there is no comparison between China and India. China is just far far ahead of India in everything you can think of.
For Indians, China wouldn't mind at all for being ridiculed of being such and such, it only serives for Indians to feel better at best.
Posted by: Buck at October 18, 2006 08:59 PM
How can you trust them? They betrayed us in 1962 after singing "Indi- chini- bhai- bhai" by attacking us without provocation. We have to be careful.
Posted by: proud indian at October 19, 2006 12:04 AM
"Most of the Indian industry are not competitive with the exception such as Wipro and Infosys. They can not produce quality product that they can export to other part of the world. They need to be protected from the Chinese industry by the Indian government in order to survive.
India a country whose people living in the same condition as the poor people in the sub-saharan region of Africa. I feel sorry for them."
Go get a life. Finish your research first and then open up your mouth.
Posted by: Cyber at October 19, 2006 12:22 AM
The last time I checked, India has trade surplus with China for these many past years. Maybe its time for China to make a blacklist. An eye for an eye. Infosys, be ready.
Posted by: Andy at October 19, 2006 02:22 AM
These days, not a single say passes by without coming across some heated online debates on “India vs. China” somewhere. However, it is odd to me the online comments are more one-sided bashing from Indians than debates from both sides. I had a few chats with my Chinese friends on this. Their reaction may be surprising to you. In their mindsets, the comparison of India to China is as absurd and funny as comparison of Cuba to US and they do not even consider it worthwhile at all arguing with low-IQ Indians. It seems against common wisdom that authoritarian communist China outshine India economically, given Indian’s market economy, capitalist system and all those IITs modeled after American MIT and Harvard etc. Why? Their answer is a two-letter word “IQ”. It is not the IQs of the elite few Indians who migrate to US, but the national average IQ of population who make up the assembly workers, office clerks, carpenters and plumbers etc. These parts of population contribute most of a nation’s GDP. They argue that India’s average IQ of 81 is at incomparable disadvantages with China’s national average IQ of 100 (for ref, UK’s IQ is at 100 and US at 98). That is why few Chinese bother to debate “India vs. China”. These comments may not be politically correct. But it does explains why capitalist money flows to communist China, not free India.
Posted by: tom sm at October 19, 2006 02:36 AM
Regarding comments by tom sm. Everybody knows about the absurdity of these IQ calculations. There are brilliant people in all countries so as morons. The little lead that China has over india in social indices is not because of any superiority in IQ. It is because of the cruel Chinese ruling system which suppresses freedom and make people work like slaves. Chinese autocratic leaders want to show-case China as an advanced country by making super highways and skyscrapers by bulldozing houses of poor people. There is no other country in the world which has rolled military tanks over student demonstrators. If you do not care for human rights, it is very easy to achieve progress. You can kill all the people who oppose a project and make others work like slaves to achieve your target. I do not consider China's progress anything worth admiring since it has been achieved over blood and tears of millions of poor people. In any case, this so called progress is not going to last much longer. A very bloody revolution is waiting to happen.
Talking about comparisons in social indices, India is going to overtake China in 30-40 years. India has already achieved 9 per cent GDP growth compared to China's 10.5 percent by spending one fourth of what China spends and also through democratic means, i.e without bulldozing poor people's homes.The Chinese lead will gradually decrease and soon Indian growth rate will overtake China's.
And about the main question raised in the article by Bruce - why Chinese investment is unwelcome in India? It is natural. India can not forget the betrayal by China in 1962. It has to be vigilant against an expansionist and vile China.
Posted by: proud indian at October 19, 2006 10:02 AM
Since 1962 war has been mentioned as a factor in several above blogs, let's look at who was really the aggressor, as opposed to the common believes in Indian minds.
The fact was, as it is today, India's Nehru government secretly concocted a plan and started the implementing it---which was annexing Tibet as part of India. The plan codenamed, "March Forward". Unfortunately, as even today, Indian government has never had the gall to release the report to the general public.
By the way, Tibet was formally conquered by China (Mongols to be exact) in 1420s. The British signed on an agreement that Tibet was part of China in 1910, when China proposed the agreement after they were suspicious of the British desire over Tibet.
Posted by: Chuck at October 19, 2006 11:02 AM
I think I forgot to attach the article, which was on an very Indian website newslet.
Posted by: Chuck at October 19, 2006 11:05 AM
Proud Indian didn't do his history homework. China betrayed India in 1962? It was India that provoked China into war by sending its troops into Chinese territory. Indian troops even went into Chinese territory further than the one they claimed. That's why the investigation document is still off limits to the public in India. Because it will show you that India provoked the war and lost.
Posted by: Coby at October 19, 2006 11:13 AM
It was not just Huawei that India had "security concerns". In a port construction project, Hutchinson Holdings, a Hong Kong based company, was also barred from bidding. Hutchinson Holdings owes most Panama Canal rights and is doing day-to-day management, and planning for next phase revamp projects.
It is not hard to see that "security concern" is merely a cover.
As for 1962 war, India lost and felt bitter. But, do Indians ever know and even are willing to know, it is the Chinese who, not only offerred, but in action stopped the war when they were in a position to take the whole India. Chinese retreated, not only the land they took, also 20-km further back from the line that India claimed (McMahon line). Even today, the disputed land (India made it a state in 1987, called Arunachal Pradesh) is in Indian possession. For any fair-minded people, it is not easy to learn that the disputed land is really Chinese. Tawang, the biggest town in that land, has always been Tibetan.
Posted by: Buck at October 19, 2006 11:34 AM
It is hard for the Chinese to understand the Indian minds.
By barring Chinese companies and investment, the result is, it hurts India more than it hurts China that India intends to. For the Chinese, it is a matter of a few business opportinities, which they can live without. For the Indians, the downside effects, with its balooning government and current account deficits, are not hard to see:
1. Multiple cost of business
2. Add up to its already high inflation rate
Why? Hardware provided by Huawei is at 1/4 the cost of hardware from the West. Good economy, Indians.
Posted by: Davos at October 19, 2006 01:42 PM
Wow! As a Chinese, I am very surprised that most Indians still harbor so much resentment against China for the 1962 war. There is a very good paper written by Nveille Maxwell about the war and its background.
Basically, Tibet was a part of China since the 1700's. The British signed an agreement in 1906 in which they recognized China's sovereignty over Tibet. The McMahon Line was unitarerally drawn by the British as the border between India and China without any agreement from Beijing. South of that line, currently occupied by India, was a region traditionally part of Tibet. In fact, it was the birth place of a Tibetan Dalai Lama. China's unitalleral withdraw behind the McMahon Line (which she does not recognized)after a decisive military victory showed that she has no intention to be India's enemy.
I think (but I'm not sure) that Indians feel betrayed by China because it was the first nation to recognize the Communist government when very few in the world did, and relinguished its control of two Tibetan trading posts established by the British. The Chinese should be grateful for India's support. However, the Nehru administration simply took it for granted the whatever the British claimed was rightfully India's territories. He sent troops to occupy the region and even beyond the McMahon Line. For a decade before 1962, India's refusal to talk while conducting military advances was already a clear act of war. When Chinese troops tried to stop Indian advances by force which resulted in some clashes, Nehru declared war on China. China had no choice but to fight back. China has tacitly given up the lands south of the McMahon Line when she handed them back to India after the war. I failed to see where is the betrayal that Indians feel so strongly about.
Posted by: Humble Chinese at October 19, 2006 03:37 PM
Chuck wants everyone to read the "truth" about the Chinese agression on India in 1962 in an article at http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/dec/26chin.htm .
It is interesting to learn that this "truth" is written by One Mr.Wang Hongwei whose profile is as under (as per foot-note given below the article itself):
"Wang Hongwei is professor of South Asia regional studies at the Institute of Asia-Pacific Studies, Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, and adviser to the Chinese Association for South Asian Studies."
Can anyone expect a different "truth" from a person having such a profile ?
India can never trust China which shamelessly attacked India soon after signing an agreement in Delhi of 'Five Principles'involving respect of each other's territorial integrity etc.
Posted by: Proud Indian at October 19, 2006 05:44 PM
Dear Proud Indian,
If you don't believe that a Chinese person is capable of telling the truth, please read this Wikipedia article on the Sino-Indian War.
There are numerous reference materials on this article as well. The question for you is:
If the 'Five Principles of Peaceful Coexistence'involving respect of each other's territorial integrity was observed by India, then why would India move troops into disputed territories and even beyond its own definition of the Northern borders into undisputed Chinese territories, while refusing to negotiate after China's repeated requests. Except for the brief period during the war, the Chinese troops never crossed the Indian claimed border into disputed territories, which were historically part of Tibetan lands until Nehru seized them by kicking out Tibetan adminstrators in 1948. Until today, India has refused to declassify its own findings about the war, the Henderson-Brooks-Bhagat Report. Who do you think is telling the truth here?
Posted by: Humble Chinese at October 19, 2006 11:10 PM
India attacked China first by sending soldiers to Chinese territory. Those soldiers even crossed the line that the Indians claimed which is the McMahon line. China simply retaliated for this traitorous act. Indians had confidence that they could beat China because they had just beaten Portuguese in Goa. I'm glad the Chinese taught those people a lesson.
Posted by: Andy at October 20, 2006 12:04 AM
Dear Humble Chinese,
Neville Maxwell is a known India basher. If you have any doubts, please read his other writings about India. To see the real colors of China, please read the following article:
Posted by: Proud Indian at October 20, 2006 12:54 AM
The Wikipedia was NOT written by Maxwell and it pretty had the same description of the war.
And how about this article written by CALVIN, James Barnard, Lieutenant Commander, U. S. Navy. It narrated the same set of facts and came to the same conclusion as Maxwell.
I think we should all be open-minded, especially when it comes to history. Be very doubtful of what your government tells you. I trust third-party independent sources of information a lot more than what my government tells me. So instead of labelling everyone who present undisputed but unfavorable facts as "India basher", maybe you should reexamine your unconditional faith in your government.
Nehru was a great leader as he did a lot of good things for his country. But his serious misjudgement leading up to the war was caused by the primo emotion of nationalistic ambitions, which I see many Indians are displaying on this forum. Remember, the absolute sense of moral superiority (We're right and you're wrong) was exactly what drove the American neo-conservatives to invade Iraq.
I don't want to debate with you on whether India is better than China. It's an absurd topic because you are trying predict what will happend 10, 20 or even 50 years into the future. But I will read your article.
Posted by: Humble Chinese at October 20, 2006 04:03 AM
This article you showed me is full of rhetorics. As I said, I only want to see facts and make my own conclusions. Tibet has been a part of China since the 1700's. Even Britain recognized that fact in 1906 in a signed agreement. India has no more business to interfere with Tibet anymore than China has with Sikkim, which was never recognized by the international community as part of India before the annexation. China has been a supporter of Pakistan just like the US has. At least China is not hosting exiled leaders of separatist movements like India is doing to China for decades. Anyway, the game will never end as long as nations exist and mistrust continues. I wish Indians will be more informed and friendly to China for the sake of mutual benefits. But if most Indians think like you, I can only feel tremendous regrets, as India should've been a great friend of China. I can tell you that most Chinese view India with a positive view.
Posted by: Humble Chinese at October 20, 2006 04:25 AM
Lets have a solution here..Why are the Chinese so scared of The Dalai Lama..Keep areferendum in Tibet and you will know Tibet's intentions...In China you have to write an essay aginst the Dalai Lama ridiculing him to apply for any civil service posts..thi sis preposterous and hypocratic...
Hey the people of China will flee the nation if they get an opportunity too...See according to the UN Human Rights report of 2005 Chinese constitute the worlds largest number of asylum seekers..Why?..this is political repression...How can a Chinese ever freely express his or her views in blog slike these..these murderers in Beijing will slaughter them...tanks will be rolled on them...
How can any self respecting country trust this nation, allies to treachorous nations like North Korea...
Posted by: Vikram at October 22, 2006 01:28 AM
I don't see India holding a referendum in Sikkim when she seized the territory. Why don't all countries in the world hold referendum to determine what lands belong to whom? It would be interesting.
Rich Western countries like to think that they are morally superior just like you are now. Asylum policies are a way they express this sentiment. The thing is, only rich countries can do this because people only want to stay in those countries. India is not be a good destination for those asymlum seekers. Indians, being from a democratic country, would not be eligible for asylum and therefore very few tried. India has been close to the Soviet Union since its independence, getting weapons and aid. I boggles my mind to think that as much as a country of freedom, India would align itself with Stalin for so many years, but she did.
So please let's be real. It's not about democracy or free press. The issues that Indians have with China is about land, pride, and self-interests.
Posted by: Humble Chinese at October 23, 2006 11:20 AM
If there is a referendum in Kashmir and Sikkim, India will certainly lose the regions. That's why India send troops instead of ballots.
India has trade surplus with China, maybe it is time for China to review the business relationship with India.
Posted by: Andy at October 23, 2006 02:29 PM
Humble Chinese, you are correct about the true motive of the Indian from this forum and the Indian government. They still want to relieve the time when India was the lackey of the British. India supply troop to help the British to conquer other countries during colonial time and India was the major producer of opium that the world has ever known!
After India got their Independence from the British, they decide to follow the foot step of the British colonialism such as trying to get Tibet out of China territory and then swallow it up as India did with Sikkim using manipulated election! While Nehru was talking about brotherhood with China, he was secretly supporting the CIA and the Tibet upper caste to cause problem in China. Nehru allowed the Tibet upper caste and the CIA to use India as based of operation so they could carry attack in Chinese territory. Later on, China managed to crush the CIA funded and trained Tibetan, that Nehru decided to use direct military force to annex Tibet. His excuse was to use colonial time document to enforce his right. This is the equivalent of Queen of England demanding the president of a foreign countries based in colonial time document.
Nehru really only cared for himself and his own power. He was ready to sacrify India for his own gain and it was under his watch that he allow the partition of India into East Pakistan and West Pakistan.
Posted by: jcage at October 24, 2006 12:33 AM
India is not as democratic as they want the world to think.
If there is a referendum in Kashmir, the majority of people will either vote for Independence or merge with Pakistan.
India holds its grip on Kasmir with military force and torture of independant minded kasmiris.
So much hype for Indian democracy and human rights.
Posted by: David Lee at October 24, 2006 06:00 AM
@ALL SO CALLED CHINESE bloggers....
Stop ganging up and give it a rest. Indians have problems with Chinese Communism and not the Chinese people and hence INDIA/CHINA relationship will always be controversial. India never attacked any country and hence stop preaching us about any social injustice. List of countries that attacked India include CHINA, PAKISTAN, UK, FRANCE, PORTUGAL, JAPAN.
Learn from history why they did.
I guess the rest of the world cannot understand the language of NON-VIOLENCE same as THESE VIOLENT CHINESE bloggers. I bet some of you are disguised, disgruntle White AMERICAN BLOGGERS.
Please give a rest to SIKKIM or TIBET Issue. Here is a crash course for @ANDY AND @JCAGE @Disguised AMERICANS (Jeez !!! by now you guys should be graduates in Economics after all these crash courses).
Small countries do not matter in Global economics with the exclusion of Japan who was one of the first comers. All that matters is access to big markets. If one persist for a separate land they would regret that in long term. Look at Bangladesh who parted away from India. Look at Pakistan who on the basis of religion parted away and now is the home of Global terrorist.
@ANDY AND @JCAGE
The INDIAN ARMY IS MADE UP OF MORE THAN 20% OF SIKHS AND THAT IS A FACT. YOUN KEEP ATTACKING INDIAN BLOGGERS WHAT’s YOUR TAKE ON TIBET. By the way are you guys on Chinese government payroll. ‘Cos looks like you guys don’t have anything to defend about all the questions that have been asked and you keep asking question for a question?
@NOT SO HUMBLE CHINESE
Please try to answer how Communism is better than Democracy in lay man terms with factual examples. If you DON'T UNDERSTAND COLD WAR THEN please register with me for some crash courses. Looks like you don't even understand COLD WAR BASICS. When INDIA LIBERATED Bangladesh it was U.S. who opposed it. Since that time until now US was against INDIA and hence naturally INDIA was pro Russia. Another reason was U.S. was pro-Pakistan so naturally India was pro-Russia. For the 20 years INDIA was talking about Pakistan habouring terrorits but the US was using this an issue to control INIDA. Guess what these same terrorist acheived 9/11. The same is going to happen to the Chinese. In the long term these Pakistani fanatics are going to infiltrate China and try spread JIHAD. All that is needed is an excuse.
ARE YOU CHINESE GOING TO BE PRO-INDIA if INDIA SUPPORTS TIBET breaking away from CHINA. Do you get it now?
Posted by: SmartOpinion at October 24, 2006 09:24 AM
As I stated many times, I never wanted debate whose government or economy is better and who will win in 30 years. I wish all the "pro-China" people would've stop baiting the Indians already. Indians can claim how China will crash and India will soar all they want. I have no interests in joining that debate. So NO, I won't answer your question about how Communism is better than Democracy and turn it into another juvenile shouting match.
I won't discuss why India sided with the Soviet Union in the Cold War either since you agree with me that India did become Stalin's good friend. My point was, it does show that India was willing to be friends with one Communist nation when she wants weapons and aids, but be enemy with another because she wants more lands. So I made a wild guess that India's anti-China attitude is about self-interests and not that China is a Communist nation.
I am here only to give unbiased factual references about the Sino-Indian War of 1962 to everyone. These are all written by Westeners(even US miliary officers), hardly pro-China or anti-India. Please refer to my previous postings if you want to read those articles. Historical facts show that India marched her army into disputed territories first, then went beyond its own claim into Indian recognized Chinese territories, and it was India who refused any negotiations after repeated Chinese requests. You are welcome to dispute these facts with credible sources.
Andy and Jcage,
please quit fanning the flame already. Let the Indians on this forum trash talk all day.
Posted by: Humbe Chinese at October 25, 2006 11:58 AM
Smartopinion, please calm down. Most of my best friend happen to be Hindus and I even got several Hidus girlfriends. I like curry and I like you as well.
Please don't take it personal. True hurt and it is the true. China is not perfect and it has a long way to go and many Chinese agree to that. However, Hindus seems to think that they are Elvis and they are perfect.
Now, don't take it personal.
Posted by: jcage at October 25, 2006 01:27 PM
It seems that we touch the nerve of smarty. So India justified its invasion of Sikkim and Kashmir because they're small? Wow, what an amazing reason. You said that we're paid by CCP, then you must be paid by the incompetent Indian government to defend their incapability and corrupted nature. India never attacked any country? You must have short term memory because you just admitted that India invaded Sikkim. Democracy is better than communism, but then again the enemy of communism is not democracy, but capitalism. And India is not a good example of democracy, but the opposite of it. Calling India an example of democracy is like saying cheese burger is a gourmet.
Oh, and finally stop acting like India is a peaceful country. India is no better than China. It developed nuclear weapon and spend billions of dollar to purchase arms every year. But of course you have the right like the Chinese have to defend their national interest.
Posted by: Andy at October 26, 2006 01:19 AM
Smartopinion, please don't get angry and try to get a grip of yourself. I understand that it is very hard to accept unpleasant true. India is not the paragon of democracy that you are being taught since kindergarden.
India did invade a lot of countries such as Sikkim, Kashmir, Khalistan and other countries. Please don't try to pretend to be Sikh since we all know that Sikh is an opressed minory in India. That why so many Sikh go into the army since all the best and least dangerous job go to the Hindus.
One or two Sikh that make it big does not mean that a great majority of the Sikh are not oppressed.
Posted by: jcage at October 26, 2006 01:42 AM
USSR looked a perfect country and superpower until the late eighties..in came two words "Glastnost and Presteroika" and the Gas went out of this unshakable power...China is following suit..How many times does History have to repeat itself..India is not only about hindus,it sabout muslims christians sikh and even jews..u know we even have Buddhists...wow in China the comms cant bear religion..look what they did to Falung Gong sect...murdered them,persecuted them...India will emerge no doubt about it.as of China..we dont know if there will be one in ten years..haha Cheers Guys and dont get so emotional..America still rules and will do so for most of our lifetimes atleast so why worry..the world is in safe hands!!
Posted by: Stephen at October 28, 2006 03:48 AM
This whole China vs India topic(s) are sadly becoming a forum for mud-slinging. While journalistic privilege allows these type of comparisons (though boring – as if there is only China and India to compare), allowing passions to cloud our thoughts and indulge in this type of debate is worthless. China and India are great nations in their own right, but do understand each country has a long way in reaching the levels of prosperity and advancement enjoyed by some other countries. We should see a win-win situation if each country progresses rather than hark back to the adversarial scenarios and some half truths, being bandied about here.
I doubt whether there is any real antagonism between populace of India and China in general – though lot of suspicions remain regarding the communist government in China. (I for one would prefer an imperfect democratic government to a communist one)
Posted by: Bnair at October 28, 2006 07:19 PM
I am an Indian and you should not expect me to have perfect English (not my mother language).
I am not here to take any sides. China is good in Hardware field, while India is good in Software field. If you guys want to learn more about China then click https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ch.html If you want to learn more about India then click https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/in.html Let me just say one thing. I am an Indian but I don't brag about IIT or Bangalore. My Chinese friends don't brag about how China is better and all. All of us (me and my Indian and Chinese friends) know about our countries and the rules/regulation they have. India has so many poor people; should India blame British government? Another debate could take a part but right now it doesn’t matter. If you don’t know anything about what British did in India then don’t even bother to post anything related to this topic. Anyways, India is trying hard in this century to make the Indian economy better. China has some rules which are considered cruel. They are planning to change them as time pass by to improve their economy. Things like these don’t change in 24 hours. In this century, both countries realized their weaknesses and power and planning to change them in next decade or so. Once India do something about poor people and China do something about their few rules, then we can compare both countries. Right now, I don’t see any point. We (me and my Indian/Chinese friends) don’t go out and ask some other people who never lived in India/China about their opinion.
One more thing, why are people talking about the war?
Again, I am not taking anyone’s side. Some of you might not agree with my opinion and that’s cool with me but. I don’t know why Chinese and Indian’s are arguing about War so much? Did the author mention the Indo/China war at least once in his article?
Posted by: Indian at October 29, 2006 01:15 PM
China and US had wars. So what? We are biggest business partners. Moto, Boeing, Lucent, any US companies are treated equally with companies from other countries.
China and Vietnam had wars even in 1980s, but it has no negative impacts on the business.
China is not singled out by India government for sanctions, but Indian companies is fairly treated in China. From WIPRO, INFOSYS, to M&M, Mittal, all are welcomed to invest and do their business in China.
Posted by: Steve at October 30, 2006 11:48 AM
This is good news. India must take care of its own interests first.
Posted by: Dilip at November 9, 2006 05:28 PM
I have found that too many indians are too sensitive when it comes to the comparison between India and China, while engaging tireless in this sort of comparison. The fact is, India is far far BEHIND China in almost all aspects of social and economical development. It also come to my attention that Indians like to point finger to China even though a topic is started by a person or institution other than China's. Why is it so?
Posted by: Fred at November 11, 2006 03:21 PM
Really boring with above arguing about the war. Make no sense. We all should be open-minded and face nowaday problems frankly. Time will tell truth soon. Both countries have their own situation. But people of both countries wanna see a harmonious Asia, peaceful world. China and India should learn to each other to get win-win promotion. Hope president Hu Jintao's visit to India be fruitful. We have a long way to go for mutual prosperity. Chinese is friendly and creditable. Hope some Indian friends get rid of those prejudice. No need to share your tunnel vision. Again, welcome all indian friends to China, travel,investment,communion,teaching etc.,any time. I wanna travel, instead of investment, to India someday, do you welcome me?
Posted by: mys21 at November 13, 2006 01:10 PM
I am a Chinese guy and I respect indians because they are so hard working. They are hard working because they want to be, but Chinese are hard working because the goverment @$#&! Chinese if we are not hard working.
I know India is good but the Chinese goverment gives wrong information. There is no information about 1989 incident in China but in the world Google gives full information.
I am ashamed of our goverment.
Posted by: ly sen at November 14, 2006 10:48 PM
Stop masquerading as a Chinese guy.
Posted by: css at November 15, 2006 12:49 AM
Hello everyone...I've been following this argument for a while now without making any comments.
But this is getting quite dumb. I am a South African settled in Australia.
Let me point out a few things about India that many 'educated' and 'developed' Indians seem to conveniently forget:
1. Your country's original name from time immemorial was 'Bhaaratha' and it was home to civlizations that made the Mughal empire and British empire seem like child's play. If you're a free country, why not retain your own name?!
2. Your national anthem was written by Tagore in the 20s in praise of king George (I forget the number) of England. You were licking brit ass back then, and you do it now to the americans.
3. If you hadn't let MK Gandhi screw you around, you'd still be a rich country. In 1945, you were the richest country in the world. Nehru, Gandhi and a few other select thieves robbed you under your nose while you paid homage to them. All this is recorded in history (NOT the indian version)
4. Your 'national' language hindi is descended from Farsi, Urdu and some other languages and did not even have a written form till recently. Why is it that you abandoned ancient and highly developed languages like Samskrith and Tamil for bastardized languages that don't even originate in your land?
5. Why do you presume that your country is all that greater than China? You have more mosquitoes there than the Chinese have humans.
6. Did any of you know that Nehru and his family converted to islam for many reasons, one of them being power?
7. Why is it even today that you allow uneducated morons to be part of your civil, banking, medical and juridical services? Why doesn't your government give 'backward' classes free education instead of 'reserving' seats and positions for them?
If you're really a democracy, do something about this and prove it. Don't just criticize how you've been cheated by other cultures. Stop your government and institutions cheating yourselves.
The Chinese are a far better culture than you are. It may sound wrong that tanks were rolled over students, but what if the students were wrong? The Chinese government has lead the country to success. Yours has not.
While Japan and the US follow some pretty dictatorial policies, though the US touts itself as the land of the free...you are the only country that claims to be secular and yet allow the government to discriminate amongst you. True, the americans are misinformed about the Iraq war, and their corporates have raped Iraq, but you seem to be misinformed about the last few thousand years of your history - especially the last three hundred years.
True that 800 years ago, when Marco Polo traveled across your nation he claimed he had seen the most advanced civilization in the world.
But that was then. Now, the very best you can do is call an artificial language your national language, and use a british misspelling as the name of your country - and yet you appallingly refer to yourself as a 'free' nation. bah.
Stop criticizing developed economies like China and grow up.
It is thanks to people like you that the Holy Land of Bhaaratha has become the pathetic, overpopulated, third world economy of India.
Posted by: Pillai at November 15, 2006 09:44 PM
funny that educated such as you are comming with crap these days.as for my opinions not quoting any max or any report is the this region would be better of if we (thats india and china)started thinking a bit positive.
as for some people(esp the west) it is an issue bcoz they simply cant see another
country/countries developing.thats why they feed some much misinformation for fools like u to argue over.as to who started the war......such a stupid question to ask as this point of time.the war is over and we indians lost it..and its gone now its over......and we learnt from it. thats it.we have to look forward to develop our country rather than comparing it to any other.and as for mr andy maybe you live in the dark ages if you are comparing indians to sub-saharan africans.maybe you shud go to india and stop watching whats shown on tv.
Posted by: arjun at November 16, 2006 05:22 AM
Pegging Currency to Dollar is not protectionism?
I think Chinese are the last souls talking about free trade or fair trade. Humble chinese, get back to work, finish that 200 pairs of fake nike order from Germany.
Posted by: Arrogant BStard at November 16, 2006 04:54 PM
I am US Citizen of Indian descent. I grew up in in Keshav Puram, New Delhi, India.
I will throw my 2c on this debate on India vs China. In opinion this is an apples to oranges type of comparison.
All said and done, in terms of economic progress, military and general human development index, China is lightyears ahead of India.
Indians need to stop wasting their time and arguing with their Chinese friends, about who is better and start working to prove that they are worthy of the consideration.
I read somewhere that China managed to bring about 400 Million people above the poverty line after they started their economic liberalization in late seventies.
India has had much smaller but similar results, primarily because of the nature of the Indian political system.
I'm very proud of India's achievements
inspite of huge bureaucratic hurdles laid out by the government till about 1990s. The Indian entrepreneur has had to surmount huge challenges to get their businesses off the ground and make some money.
In that respect the Indian business-persons have learnt how to be very efficient with capital and be very innovative in how they further their business. The ugly side of that equation is they have managed water seed of corruption to see it grow into a giant tree with deep roots. And, in process also mastered the art of exploiting the poor.
In both cases, I believe that once the countries come to a level of prosperity similar to the western world, people will demand gaurantees for life, liberty and persuit of happiness.
Posted by: Krish at November 17, 2006 06:32 PM
All this war talk is just rubbish. I can get you 10 sites supporting india's views and another 10 supporting the chineese the only thing that matter is it happend 44 years ago and both countries are not the same.
I am very well aware that at this point in history China is far ahead of india in almost every field. But many of the pro chineese posters here forget how they went about achieving it. Chineese farmers are forcefully removed from their villagers and their villagers are destroyed to create industry. They build dams and entire cities go under water. In a totalitarian state its easy to suppress struggles and revolts against the government and because of censorship we dont know about it. What china is presenting to you is its polished face in its cities with all the sky scrapers and glittery glassy cities. It dosent mean there aint no shit happening there, the government of that country wont allow you to see it.
Now in the case of India. By the time the Brits left our country was a mess. The agriculture and industrial sectors were inefficient and there was a greater level of backwardness. We chose a democracy over a totalitarian state, a democracy that still lives on despite huge problems and wars and political and civil unrest. Pakistan chose the same path and look what has come of them. We perhaps did the best we could being a democracy to be where we are now. Our cultural and scientific revolutions didn't kill 30 million people. The media has full access to India and India is what you see it is. Its an Emerging economic power but you can see our problems with ur very own eyes. We dont restrict you to our villages our riot hit places our cities with buzzing slow traffic and slums. We don't hide our true colours and appear all polishy and shiny infront of the world.
Now i am no soothsayer I am not saying China will self destruct or India will overtake them. I don't actually give a damn if they become the worlds new superpower and largest economy with bells and whistles as long as my country is doing well. I just want people to judge us fairly what you are judging us on what they see on tv.
Some poster here said about communist China being prefered by capitalists over democratic India. Communism lives only in name there. Evacuating farmers and vlllagers from their homes to develop industry is not communism its capitalism and exploitation of the poor. Capitalists love totalitarian states they are better places to invest becuase they can do whatever they pleases as long as they have the government support no Mass Strikes no worker rallies no Court Orders :)).
Now My Average American Friend would you rather be an indian middle class person who can watch all the tv channels in the world and can be assured that the govtis not checking his personal mail or do u want to be a chineese middle class person who may be better off but is restricted in every move he make ?
A cage is a cage even if its made of Gold
Posted by: Vishnu Sreevalsan at November 20, 2006 06:53 PM
There are Indians of no substance and who having no substance to rebut the facts and figures attesting to China's superior development resort to arguing about the superiority of their 'democracy' and 'freedom'. I think Indians are so proud of their democracy because they have been deluded and flattered by Western media.
Everyone knows that real freedom starts when you have money. A higher proportion of Chinese are better-off than Indians and therefore more Chinese actually have freedom of choice compared to Indians. The only 'freedoms' I see the majority poor in India have is freedom to starvation, freedom to wear tattered clothes and freedom to sleep on the five-foot ways.
The past few years Western magazines have written feature articles extolling the Indian success story. Actually it is the same story. Other than the usual mention regarding the IT services industry, call centres and pharmaceuticals, they actually have very little to write about India. Witness the slide show titled Modern Wonders of India in BusinessWeek's Architecture section. I really wanted to laugh because almost all the architecture wonders it is talking about are in the proposed or 'in the future to come' stage.
I think Indians are just too easily flattered by the articles written by international publications. Every little article of praise turn them ecstatic.
It is also because Indians have so little achievements to boast about that they like to bask in reflected glory for every little achievement of their 'countrymen'. (e.g. Mittal's takeover of Arcelor).
I really don't have anything against Indians. They are a country not without an intellectual tradition and a veneer of them will excel in the professional services industries. What I don't like is their inclination to brag and boast and to talk bad about their neighbor. This will yet be their undoing.
Posted by: wilfred at November 21, 2006 12:28 AM
Like I said you are benchmarking India on its poor and its people which you see with tattered clothes and all. And You are benchmarking china on their wonderful glossy cities. You all forget how they achieved it. If we were a totalitarian state we would have done the same if not better. I believe the western people who have not faced such huge problems faced by India and China when they are formed do not have the right to judge either of the countries. America would have done far worse if they had the problems we faced.
What you are not seeing is china is taking the shortest path to economic success by leaving its people no choice in decison making. While we are making slow and steady progress which will eventually leave us in a better position. Economic transformation is easier than political transformation.
As for our democracy we chose the system no body chose it for us. During the cold war we allied ourselves with the USSR but that alliance never led us to a coup or a change in govt to communism. We always valued our democracy. The west began praising it only after we opend our markets and became more inclined towards the west.
What freedom of choice does the chineese have do you belive having more money to buy stuff is freedom :)). Can he take it to the streets if his government has done something bad. Can he choose who governs him. Can he sue the state ... he can but he will end up in jail for other charges... He cant even have more than one child. If you call that freedom No Sir No Thanks You can have it. I would rather see my country going slower and steadier.
The previous poster haven't obviously read my last post...Or i guess all he thinks of is about skyscrapers. How about Human Rights for a change Mr Wilfred
Posted by: Vishnu Sreevalsan at November 21, 2006 01:58 PM
Heres an Article thats published in Harvard Business School's Website
Posted by: Vishnu Sreevalsan at November 21, 2006 02:01 PM
I totally agree with Wilfred. When Indians starts to talk about their democracy and freedom, it is actually a front for inadequacy.
Vishnu should be well versed with Maslow's Hierachy of Needs before he talks about the things he cares about.
Posted by: css at November 21, 2006 11:10 PM
Wilfred's comments probably written from somewhere outside China,doesn't really deserve a reply.Let me just point out that,I can post a note here or in any site,sitting in my own country without worrying that somoene would come knocking in the night.Nuff said.
btw,it was funny of css to say that Vishnu should read 'Maslow's' Hierachy of Needs before deciding what 'Vishnu' cares about.
But I digress.My intention of posting here is to have a talk with humle_chinese.
If you go through Tibet's history,you can see that as early as in the 7h century,Indian languages were accepted as their langage and literary works were written in it.The Tibetans were different from the Han Chinese.It is not to claim that Tibet belongs to India,I just say that they have a seperate identity and China's claim on it is not really objective.The 1913 declaration of DalaiLama points out that Tibetans never accepted that i