Rebels with a Marketing Cause

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What about, say, Apple's (AAPL) "I'm a Mac" ads. Those certainly have a cheeky attitude.

Simmons: All of Apple's ads tend to work, simply because its products are so good. So their ads fall into place. We're not talking about a difficult brief for the ad executives.

Laermer: I have some criticism of Apple, though. I think they're not looking at the big picture, beyond the ads. I use Apple products, and now I get so much spam from Apple. I wouldn't think Apple would send out a lot of annoying spam. By sending out the spam like everyone else, Apple's not as cool as it seems in the ads. It almost seems like a separate company doing that.

You discuss how companies successfully use blogs as marketing tools. Give us an example.

Laermer: Netflix (NFLX) has a good blog, by [Chief Executive] Reed Hastings. I like reading about upstart companies taking over. You feel like you're part of an inclusive society. But I'm shocked that Jeff Zucker [chief executive of NBC Universal] hasn't blogged more. He's articulate and angry. That's a great voice for blogging.

Simmons: It suggests that he doesn't understand the online world.

Speaking of the Internet, what fresh sites do you recommend paying attention to?

Simmons: Joost, by the guys who first did KaZaa and Skype (EBAY). I'm amazed by what they're starting to do: putting TV, with shows and ads, on the Internet. Others are trying to do it, sure. But Joost is all about simplicity and content. It allows marketers to target individuals really specifically by location and offer them tailored marketing messages. And it has way less ads than traditional TV channels, just a couple of minutes an hour.

That means a more compelling viewer experience. That it's subtle and highly targeted is a marketer's dream.

Laermer: I'm watching an online network called xy.tv. It's a promotional tool for brands like American Express (AXP) to show off their products and services with instructional videos that show people using them. These shows are sponsored by companies. But xy.tv creates the content.

Consumer-generated ads are gaining a lot of attention. Do you think they're just a fad?

Simmons: Totally. We won't see them during the Super Bowl next year. What's long lasting about consumer-generated ads is the broad idea that companies and agencies now need to involve consumers more. If they don't invite consumers in, the consumers can now create and distribute parodies and their own ads anyway.

Laermer: It's important for companies to embrace criticism and play along when they see consumers making fun of their products.

Simmons: Even if consumer feedback is negative, it can be great. It allows a company to learn about its own product. If you can say, "We heard and we listen. So give us another chance," consumers might even trust the brand more.

What are the punk-est ads you've ever seen?

Laermer: There was an ad for Carleton cigarettes that was brash and straightforward. The campaign said something like "Try our cigarettes. You'll really like them."

Simmons: My favorite punk ads were an outdoor campaign in Australia, advertising beef. The ads said, "Buy more beef, you bastards." Funny. To the point. And unexpected.

Laermer: I also liked a recent Chevrolet TV ad that ran during this year's Grammy Awards, featuring different pop songs about Chevy cars. I liked how it made you think of the brand's cultural legacy.

That ad actually sounds pretty mainstream. In your book, you predict that all ads will one day be "punk." If that happens, won't your conception of "punk" lose its meaning?

Laermer: All good marketing and ad campaigns keep people guessing. So in that sense, all good campaigns are punk, as we define it.

Simmons: What we mean is that the current establishment will change in the next few years and adopt today's punk strategies. But there's always a need for fresh attitude to challenge those ideas. And that's punk.

Jana is a writer with BusinessWeek.com in New York.