Indians in America: Caught in the Middle of Controversy

"As I think back on the Indian-Americans I met that night, I can’t help but contrast the kinds of things they said—and the unemotional way they said them—to many of the angry and even ugly comments we got on our High-Tech Sweatshops story "

parasites usually are not unhappy about a parasitic relationship

As a non-Indian American programmer, I have never been a fan of comments posters who demonize the Indian H-1B workers. But also as a non-Indian American programmer, I see nothing wrong with protesting this long-abused visa program that hurts my career opportunities by correcting the numerous writers (many of whom are absolute shills) who regularly post easily-disproved gonzo-libertarian-globalist or ethnocentric-agenda propaganda on this issue, in BusinessWeek or elsewhere. From my perspective, I can't say that I've done anything wrong. All I know is that I was in my own country, minding my own business and working happily enough in IT, when all of the sudden in the late 90's came a Normandy-like invasion of Indians in just about every office I went to. About three or four years after that, I noticed that half the search agents (head hunters) that I sent a resume to were now suddenly Indians, and if I called them on the phone there were immediate problems because from my perspective their accent was so thick that most of the time I couldn't even understand them on the phone. And about this same time I noticed it getting harder and harder to find assignments even though my skills were sharp and current (mostly J2EE and JavaScript back then) and even included many recent industry certifications. So, it's like: if a person is sitting on a public beach minding his own business, and then a bunch of people in boats float in and say "We want that place now" and kick sand in his face and push him off the spot he had... I think it's quite all right for that person to say "Hey, that's not right." It's just that the people kicking the sand in the face are mostly not the H-1Bs themselves, but people higher on the food chain.

"prefers to hire Indians on visas"

WTF?

This doesn't bug you, Steve? You are more upset about a flame war in your comments section than such open nepotism and bigotry? FYI, this bias is rampant in I.T., and now many Indians are in hiring positions and spreading their caste-oriented culture throughout the industry. They want compliant young Indians to boss around, and you yourself know that India has a hierarchical culture that does not tolerate open minds and frankness in the workplace. Thanks for helping to turn ALL OF I.T. into one massive sweatshop filled with bullying Indians like Satish Bhalerao.

Why do Indians prefer to hire those on Visa than locals? That's nepotism hiring your own kind instead of hiring who is qualified for the job. This is America if they want to practice their caste and nepotism they should all go back to India. Discrimination against Americans is illegal in America.

Steve you should not promote open racists views. This line says it all about Indians "he prefers to hire Indians on visas".

They are different from the early immigrants they don't want to assimilate and will push their caste system on us.

You will be replaced by a guest worker. Do yourself a favor; go visit endh1b.com and check out the database; 1500 editors and writers were imported on H-1B in 2008.

Obama wants to creat millions of jobs. Simple ban all new H1B visa and limit those visas to one year non extendable. NO more transfer visas without 5 years years with the firm. Finally if a USA firm get TARP money or federal contracts, they are banned from overseas outsourcing.

People in the USA believe it is their Divine Right to work in exclusive high-paying jobs. IT work requires specialised training and great discipline and it can be very stressful. The once-high wages for IT workers in the USA reflect those factors. IT workers in other countries are also being paid at a higher rate in their respective locations for the same reasons. The problem, then, is that the cost of living in places like India is so low that even the relatively high wages for Indian IT workers amount to only a fraction of what American IT workers have come to expect.

Here is the deal; a lot of Indian professionals (pros) were sold a bill of goods when they signed up to come over to the US to work.

They were told that they were the best a brightest and for most that definitely wasn’t the case.

The fact is they were and still are (for the most part) being paid considerably less than an American doing the same job.

Most mid to high level corporate executives really don’t care that they are getting an inferior product because they just look at the short term and not the long term.

They don’t see the garbage these so called pros produce and when the stuff hits the fan they usually just run and hide.

Satish Bhalerao takes advantage of programmers who do not have American citizenship. That's the problem with today's visa process - it overly empowers the business when it should be the state (solely) that determines who should become a citizen.

Let's see what Satish would think of American programmers if he had to pay the true market rate instead of the rigged 'prevailing wage'.

Ummm... excuse me Steve, but "Asian Indian Chamber of Commerce" is racist. What if I started something called the "White Chamber of Commerce"? How long do you think it would be before the media was all over me calling me a neo-Nazi. Asian Indian Chamber of Commerce? Come on, this is flat-out racism. Indians get their own CoC based on race? This is ludicrous.

Cheaper products? What good are cheaper products if they don't work (like Vista)? Ask Microsoft how good cheap labor has been for it.

Bringing in new ideas and energy? Sounds good on paper but where are the results? We've got a stagnant economy. The new ideas and booming economy were happening 10 years ago - BEFORE offhsoring and bringing people in.

Sorry Steve, but the reality just doesn't match up to the India, Inc. agenda.

How about Americans 'caught in the middle' of the fraud that is H-1B? It's supposed to be a 3 year visa, renewable once. Yet how many Indians (and others) have, in the end, remained in the US as permanent competition to American workers? In fact, most regard it is a ticket to a green card -- this is one reason they are so sought after. Not to mention the ethnic nepotism in their hiring practices.

You are a journalist but a writing arsonist. This article is probably one of the few where your journalistic credentials come thru

"He said he pays guest workers in the United States the same as he does native American workers, but he prefers to hire Indians on visas."

This says it all. It's time to stop this nonsense.

Prefers to hire Indians? If I preferred to hire whites, and said so out loud, I'd be facing the wrong end of a lawyer pretty quick. This guy needs to have his attitude adjusted to fit in with American law and culture.

Steve,
Why don't you try doing an article from an American IT worker's point of view for a change? You know, the ones that don't have multi-million dollar propaganda machines at their disposal. No one is buying the lie that the H-1B is good for the American economy anymore. The public just has to look in the classifieds of their local newspaper to see what that ridiculous visa has done. Americans need to vote anyone out of office that supports the H-1B visa. Oh yeah, and don't use Network Solutions anymore.

Whatever Rev. Martin Luther King fought for; these Indian consulting companies just wiped out. Where is the diversity in some IT departments now? As soon as one Indian becomes a manager he just hires Indians.

Oh where oh where has my America the land of equality gone?

So, Indians on visas are "motivated to work hard because they want to live here and to find a way to stay here". In other words, they're beholden to the employer for their privilege of staying in this country; in other words, there's something approaching de facto slavery going on between employer and employee. No wonder the employer prefers them!

We need to stop giving employers the power to exploit their visa workers. When we find it expedient to bring in guest workers, we need to bring in the world's best minds -- and set them free from exploitation by their employers!

Let's put a stop to this protectionism of the employers! What's the matter, Mr. Bhalerao, are you afraid of competition from other employers for your employees? Free market, baby -- but it cuts both ways! "Compete America", indeed: start by competing for your employees' services in the free market, without a visa-status gun held to their heads to make them "work hard".

Set the visa captives free! Let the the smartest and best people in the world come here (in manageable numbers, depending on the economy) and let them become Americans: let them take root, blossom in freedom and bear fruit. That's what made this country great -- not the kind of compliant, dependent, indentured labor that Mr. Bhalerao and his ilk prefer.

Satish Bhalerao says "he prefers to hire Indians on visas".

HCL Technologies CEO Vineet Nayar proclaimed recently in New York that most American college grads are “unemployable.”

Yet Indians begin screaming "racism" the moment Joe/Jane American calls them out on their blatant bigotry!

Absolutely outrageous!

While India Inc whines and screams "racism" at proposals in the US (S.887) to reign in H1B/L1 visa abuse, India itself has just made getting an Indian work visa tougher;

India's new work visa norms; *) No visas for jobs for which a large number of qualified Indians are available, *) No visas will be issued if a work is of a routine, ordinary or secretarial natrure

http://www.financialexpress.com/news/getting-an-indian-work-visa-will-be-tougher-now/526347/

India Inc demands more work visas for Indians in the US, screaming "protectionism" whenever they meet resistance, yet India
tells Chinese investors; No more visas, hire Indians!

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/India-to-Chinese-investors-No-more-visas-hire-Indians/articleshow/5019220.cms

Outsourcing/H1B/L1 of IT is just the tip of the iceberg as these pernicious practices are spreading to law, accounting, pharmacy, medicine, and even journalism!

http://www.kpoindia.co.in/

What next? "Body Shops" offering "nursing services", with whose business models dependent on exploiting loopholes in H1B/L1 visas laws, undercutting local US wages?

Tata Consultancy Services Vice President Vice President Phiroz Vandrevala "Our wage per employee is 20-25 per cent less than US wages for a similar employee...Typically, for a TCS employee with five years experience, the annual cost to the company is $60,000-70,000, while a local American employee might cost $80,000-100,000. This (labour arbitrage) is a fact of doing work onsite. It's a fact that Indian IT companies have an advantage here and there's nothing wrong in that. The issue is that of getting workers in the US on wages far lower than the local wage rate."

http://www.hindustantimes.com/News/nm16/H-1B-visa-holders-paid-less-in-US/Article1-147259.aspx

We can expect Indians to go apoplectic and begin spewing vitriol and screaming "racism" if/when body shops offering "nursing services", "pharmacy services", "legal services", "journalism services" begin meeting resistance from Americans losing their livelihoods?

Are US work visas an ENTITLEMENT foreigners have a RIGHT to? They are NOT!

H1B is not even an immigration visa. The drivers licenses of H1B holders are even stamped with the word TEMPORARY in bold red letters across the top in many states - and will be in all 50 states as a 2005 law is phased in is my understanding.

Intrinsically, H1B and immigration are neither good or bad (even in a depression) - and can be either IMHO.

The US Congress must enact S. 887 Durbin-Grassley H1B/L1 visa reform to ensure that H1B/L1 visas are actually beneficial to America. Legitimate "skills shortages" would not be affected by S.887 and persons of "extraordinary ability" could still come to America via O-1 visas which have no quota. H1B holders already in America should be treated fairly, with some grandfather clause, in accordance with American values - and in recognition that many have American (US born) children. But future TEMPORARY NON IMMIGRANT visa holders should not be allowed to bring over "immediate family" as dependents as this contradicts the TEMPORARY nature of the visa - temporary should mean temporary.

Immigration can be culturally enriching - which benefits Americans - but not if 70% of the legal immigrants come from just 5 countries. Immigration from a handful of countries creates ethnic lobbies whose interests are often at odds with those of Joe/Jane America. The whole notion of "Indian-American" in lieu of simply AMERICAN is testimony to that.

http://durbin.senate.gov/record.cfm?id=271783

Satish Bhalerao is either a racist in that he looks down on Americans or even worse a pimp who exploits his own countrymen for a few Rs. What is particularly galling about Bhalerao and his ilk is their sense of karmic entitlement to come to the US and take over out IT industry outright. H-1B and L1 visas should be annulled and lowlifes such as Bhalerao sent packing ASAP.

I am a brown immigrant worker in the software industry.
I actually think H1-b'S are bad for the economy because I see the nepotism first hand - resumes are inflated just to get workers the visa. Once they find out I do not need an H1-B or a visa, the back off and do not want to hire me. This happened recently with Cognizant. In the long run, how are new people supposed to get trained when everything is outsourced?

I am a brown immigrant worker in the software industry.
I actually think H1-b'S are bad for the economy because I see the nepotism first hand - resumes are inflated just to get workers the visa. Once they find out I do not need an H1-B or a visa, the back off and do not want to hire me. This happened recently with Cognizant. In the long run, how are new people supposed to get trained when everything is outsourced?

Steve,

The US Constitution protects life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (read: jobs). Is it racist to make sure that qualified American talent gets a chance to compete for jobs in our own country? India's new visa laws mandate that NO visas will be granted to foreign workers if there is a surplus of local talent. What's wrong with this?

I am exceptionally disappointed in BW's biased journalism. BW, once a credible source of business news, has been reduced to a front for Nasscom and Compete America, Why haven't you written a story about how the corrupt corporate visa system is ruining the American middle class. Thanks to egregious guest worker laws, it is legal for employers to recruit exclusively offshore for US jobs. Qualified American talent, replaced by these guest workers lose our jobs, homes, healthcare and life savings. Instead of covering the American tragedy right in front of you, you choose to discuss minor inconveniences experienced by guest workers and their Indian body shop employers. They have jobs, our jobs. Is BW owned by either Microsoft or Nasscom? Maybe you've never experienced the facts firsthand. I challenge you to spend a day walking in my shoes.

For these Indians Outsourcing companies: American programmer = "Dalit(untouchable) programmer".

So then everyone is completely ok that say, private medical information is outsourced (via medical transcription services) to India? That Indians not completely literate in English are transcribing medical dictation which could affect a US patients health and life so the hospital can save money?

Sure out-sourcing will all be good and well for the poor consumer but when the ~right~ politician has a close relative die due to a cheap outsourced transcription labor ONLY THEN will this be a problem.

As for this blog article quote:

"Bhasin started his job at Intelenet late last year. He was surprised to realize that it was the company to which he had lost his job six years ago."
I bet he is making the same wage as a General Manager in India as he made as an entry level person here in the US. For his benefit, Bhasin gets to live in India where it costs less to live but all US citizens get reduced wages but never reduced costs of living...

So ask all these idiot US companies who will be left in the United States who can afford paying 2009 era prices on goods when only getting paid 2000 era salaries?

So, the short version is that the Asian Indian Chamber of Commerce members are all body shoppers!? They haven't created real software/hardware product firms with full-time permanent employees creating, and then improving hardware/software products?

Cal Bear, we already have body shops for abusing nurses and teachers.

John, add HotMail, to those not working products.

Steve Hamm, get back with us when you're ready to require guest-workers to be genuinely "best" or "brightest", and not to promote body shopping and facilitate off-shoring. If you can find someone who is truly brilliant, someone with an IQ over 160, and here to do a legitimate job or form a legitimate firm, and he's passed a proper background investigation to make sure he's not inclined to initiate force or fraud, and I'll welcome him gladly, regardless of his/her nation of birth or most recent residence.

Steve,

Please listen. This is a war on U.S. educated Americans and articles like yours that would highlight the gains of imported Indian workers who steal our jobs suggest that you, sir, are compensated dearly to PROMOTE the whole-sale sell out of our jobs.

My husband (MS Computer Science from U of Illinois) was recently replaced by an imported worker from India at a local SF Bay Area software start-up company for a fraction of the pay my husband was billing. This Indian worker has a BS degree from a third rate college and a fraction of the experience as my husband's 30 years in the industry. He had to meet on his final day with his replacement and the VP Engineering where my husband pointed out the error's and proof of the Indian's clueless coding. The VP shrugged it off. (Why? The rampant attitude amongst local tech executives is to get rid of anyone who might challenge their abilities or somehow "outshine" them and the scab worker Indian model provides these tech execs a convenient way to pocket the money they would pay a top-notch pro like my husband so THEY can pay their own mortgage and costs at the expense of their neighbors.)

This Indian was hired for $50K for a complex job that my husband had been paid more to do - an amount commensurate with his high levels of experience and academic training.

You presumably should understand, Steve, that the most important point here is that SF Bay Area mortgages are NOT sustainable for a family where one or even two working parents are paid $50K a year. This may be a whopping sum to live on in India or the backwash, but NOT here. But completely unnecessary imported Indians (whether on H-1B or green card) are piling into houses with 6-10+ working adults to pool their pay checks to live here as this concerted American professional ethnic cleansing program thrives.

Tell us, Steve, exactly how much you are compen$ated to hate your neighbors?

I'm generally in favor of H1Bs because I'd rather have the job here where I can compete for it than overseas where I can't. But I think Americans have a legitimate grievance about the conditions of H1Bs that keep an immigrant worker bound in a way a native worker is not. And if laws can do nothing about the nepotism and racism that occurs, we (and you) should make it clear that it ought to be considered unacceptable in a civilized world.

It's always amazed me that our country, which has slogans such as "diversity is our strength" is importing one of the most openly discriminatory people of all time. Even Indians occasionally acknowledge this. Check out this entry in the Indian press:

http://www.techgoss.com/Story/1796S14-Outsourcing-victim-speaks.aspx

@ Brownie

I admire your honesty. It takes one with utmost integrity to admit these things. I have had approx 10 yrs experience with Indian outsourcers (programmers) & have said over & over again they were NOT impressive. Mediocre at best. There was alot of 'smoke & mirrors' on projects. Something my team would NEVER do. Just do the best that you can do & continue the sincerity.

Can US corporations reduce costs, increase profits and pass on their benefits to the consumers and other stakeholders without outsourcing? The answer will be, NO, THEY JUST CANNOT.

We have already seen this in the manufacturing sector and it's but logical that the services sector also followed suit.Look at the hundreds of billion dollars worth goods that are being made by the Chinese. Can we stop imports of these goods from China? So, why single out Indians? Stop imports from China and outsourcing to India and start manufacturing in the US and see if it makes economic sense for the government as well as for the 33 million Americans. Most of the goods and services will be beyond the reach of an average American. Pass a law that Walmart cannot sell goods made in China and see the dire consequences.

Outsourcing - whether of manufacturing or of services - creates a win-win situation for everyone. So, let's stop cribbing about it and enjoy the benefits of low costs.

Because cogressman and women who voted for h1b will voted out by voters.

I think we need to separate the 3 classes of H1-Bs. The first group of H1-Bs are distinguished foreign students on F1 visas graduated from top US universities and hired by IT companies like Microsoft, Google, etc. These are people of all nationalities and are often hired at or above market rate.

The second group of H1-Bs are low skilled, fudged resume con artists brought in from India by Indian outsourcing firms to replace US IT workers wholesale. Then there's the 3rd category which are outright frauds, mostly run by Indians.

The first group, which often are holders of Master's degrees in engineering, would fit into the "best and brightest" category. I have no problem with these people. They are low in number(no more than 20,000 a year?) and benefit the companies they work for. I've worked with many of these engineers at Microsoft, they hailed from Russia, France, China, Singapore, even India...most are hard working and excellent engineers. These are people who will be hired even when there's no skills shortage, simply because they are good.

The second group are the ones I have a problem with. These people are brought in by the tens of thousands, supposedly to fill a "skills shortage", but really for their low wage. Most are con-artists taught to fudge their resumes. Indian outsourcing firms like TCS, Wipro, Infosys, bid low for large IT projects in the US, sometimes replacing entire IT departments, offshore whatever jobs they can offshore, then bring in low skilled, low wage workers to take up the jobs that can't be offshored. This is what is killing the IT profession in the US. Lately these companies have figured out how to get around the H1-B stigma by using L1 visas, which they are not supposed to. Indians make up the largest number of L1 visa holders in the US, exceeding second place UK by almost 10x.

The 3rd category are outright frauds. Criminals(many are Indians) who pose as "Employers" in the US, bring in workers from Chennai or wherever with fake resumes for a stiff upfront fee, then put them to work in gas stations, fast food places etc.

I think Category 1 of US educated H1-Bs should continue to be allowed, but Category 2 and 3 of H1-Bs should be completely outlawed. Imagine the outrage if Toyota or BMW bring in thousands of auto workers from Japan or Germany to work in their plants in the US instead of hiring Americans. Why is this even allowed? Not to mention the 100% Indian hiring which completely violates our diversity law. They also make the first category of H1-Bs look bad.

Kevin really highlighted some good point regarding Indian caste system it may be true in some set of people from Gujarat,but this wouldn't apply to all Indians.

Kevin really highlighted some good point regarding Indian caste system it may be true in some set of people from Gujarat etc,but this is not apply to all Indians.

How ironic! From these Indian/Indian Americans standpoint, we are "Native Americans", as Mr. Kumar Balani pointed out. The Indians do not just want outsourcing jobs, they do not just want H1B visas. What they want is to flood our country and send us to follow the fate of the original "Native Americans", i.e. the "American Indians".

In a mere two decades, the Indian immigrant community has balloon from almost nil to #2 among all countries, behind only Mexico. How did these people flood U.S.A. AND move millions of American jobs to India at the same time? Americans MUST WAKE UP.

Yesterday it was the japanese,then the chinese who took away jobs in the manufacturing sector, now it is the indians in the services sector. The USA has to acknowledge the fact that in a few years from now it will no longer be the white supremest nation due the demographic changes taking place. Better to have more of chinese,mexicans,indians,fillipinoes then people from the middle east and pakistan who want to turn the USA into an Islamic republic like that in Iran.

This is all a crock. H-1B have destroyed American jobs, exploit Indian workers, and will turn US into a third world with no middle class- only super rich and poor people. I like many had my business destroyed by these human traffickers aided by the greedy "senior mgmt" in American corporations.

H-1B does not represent the best it is the cheapest. Same as Chinese slave workers in a factory. The only solution to this is outsource the damn senior mgmt, congress, and levy a tax proportional to corporate US profit minus the payroll.

It is only fair as corporations have no nationality particularly when they strip mine a nation for profit.

The person quoted in the article, Satish Bhalerao, owns Network Solution Inc. which is apparently located in New York, NY (easily found through google). You might want to clarify that, Steve, so as to avoid confusion with Network Solutions (well known domain name provider). Interesting to note that he is paying $42,000 for a "programmer analyst" in New York city http://www.h1b-visa-data.com/state/NY-page594.html . Does that seem like the "prevailing wage" in the most expensive city in the U.S.? It's obvious why this guy loves the H1B program.

Someone should tell Kumar Balani that it's pretty hard to buy things when you're unemployed due to your former employer using offshore labor!

1. Are all the jobs lost in last 10-15 years in US due to H1B visa only ?

2. Many US companies using H1B labor export all over the world. Has this ever occured to anyone that in many cases these companies are literally saved by outsourcing, enabling the 90% American employees of these companies to enjoy the benefits of their continued existence.

3. As an Indian I know from personal experiance that professionaly the worst enemy of an Indian in US could only be an Indian. I am surprised by charges of favoratism in some comments.

4. Its not that US outsources to India only and american jobs are lost due to H1B only. If you consider american jobs lost because of manufacturing work outsourced to China, Indian numbers will pale in comparison.

5. I am confident that American government and public is wise enough to see the advantages and disadvantages of outsourcing. If there were no advantages to US, the outsourcing would have been stopped long ago.

"5. I am confident that American government and public is wise enough to see the advantages and disadvantages of outsourcing. If there were no advantages to US, the outsourcing would have been stopped long ago."

World Citizen, thanks for your trust in our government. The outragous middle class outsourcing will be stopped soon.

If Indians are the best and brightest why has innovation plunged since they took over the IT industry? Why is India always placed last in international programming competitions? Why can't they win the ACM? Why do they demand free trade then operate under protectionist policies?

If Indians are the best and brightest why has innovation plunged since they took over the IT industry? Why is India always placed last in international programming competitions? Why can't they win the ACM? Why do they demand free trade then operate under protectionist policies?

A comment to another immigration article I saw on economist.com

------------------------------------I work in NYC and I get a sandwich for work every day. Sometimes I get it at Au Bon Pain, a large food chain. They often make my sandwich poorly, with ingredients i didn't ask for, falls apart right away and the kid who makes it rolls his eyes five times in the process. They hire mostly young American high school graduates and presumably pay them $7hr minimum wage. Across the street there is a deli where I occasionally treat me to a roast-beef hero made by a tiny undocumented Mexican who greets me "whats up boss, same thing today? sure thing!" and he makes the best sandwich he can make, every time, he's focused, you can see the effort. I tip him, he makes $4, $5/hr? and sends half of that back to mexico, and he looks 20 times happier than the kid with all the benefits!!
America needs immigrants, of all levels, so that young generations of Americans see by themselves the strive and motivation their grandparent immigrants had, as opposed to the sense of entitlement and celebrity obsession their lives are reduced to now. We have an entire generation of 20-somethings that grew up taking so many things for granted and are just standing in line, fulfilling minimum requirements with their hand stretched out for their college degree and their six figure job. That strive and motivation is what has brought America forward to being the worlds most prosperous nation. This article is spot on.

It is fine details note.Thanks. Be happy give happy. Yours Deep

Why is it that foreign nationals, corporations and boneheads think that bringing down the standard of living in this country to bring it up in the third world, is perfectly acceptable? Because they are selfish ethnocentric bigots. They are blinded by their desire to get out of the hell they call a homeland. They use reverse racist epitaphs to condone their behavior and give credence to their attitude.
The United States was built by immigrants in such a fashion as not ot fall into the pit of hell that other countries continue to be mired in. It is laughable as well as ludicrous how the issue of immigration gets tied to outsourcing. I don't care what country you come from when immigrating to the USA, but I do care if you sell out to foreign interests. That is treason and those that commit it should be held accountable to the most extreme exent of the law or the society you affect.

what?

What is Steve Hamm trying to prove??? Is he trying to demonize Americans of Indian origin? For every, Satish Bhalerao, there is a Ron Hira with an opposing view on H1B and outsourcing. Actually, it is all a moot point, if US congress pass a bill to ban H1B visas. It was US corporations that want these visas badly and lobby our politicians. Don't tell me Indian outsourcers control US internal and immigration policy!

Look this is all about lowering costs, and not about sustainability or a decent standard of living for Americans. Just as WalMart is demonstrating, the two do not go together. American consumers are not really going to benefit in the long run because the Corporate Capitalists and their management minions are going to ruin their standard of living using outsourcing and H1Bs/L1s etc.

H1Bs are indentured servants, and the oversupply of labor in the US is making it harder to move around, thus making us all servants of upper management. This has never before been the case and will eventually lead to unions in hi-tech as we realize we aren't moving jobs when we are unfairly treated. We need collective bargaining as a powerful counterbalance to how powerful this oversupply of labor has made management.

I really don't have a problem with outsourcing, its going to happen. I really have a problem of importing people to the US to compete in the market directly. Ultimately its not good for those they are importing because truly they will have a hard time finding a job as well. It certainly is not beneficial to those who are already citizens. We are family, and its time we took care of each other and stopped these abusive immigration policies which hurt our brothers and sisters.

Just abolish the H1B visa. H1B visa takes jobs away from the Americans. Why should Americans help the Indians programmers while our programmers are out of jobs?

--"Stop imports from China and outsourcing to India and start manufacturing in the US and see if it makes economic sense for the government as well as for the 33 million Americans. Most of the goods and services will be beyond the reach of an average American."-- The United States did fine without outsourcing for decades. Without outsourcing and outsourcing visas the United States grew to the worlds strongest country. Your argument has no base in reality.

I read through the entire set of posts written by justifiedly angry Americans however I would like to throw light that some of the practices like "promise of providing a Green card to Indian IT professionals" are promoted by white Americans in large corporations. I have witnessed some of these practices while my short assignment in the US. There were many fellow IT colleagues who would work more than 12 hours a day just because their white American boss promised them a Green card. Some of these Indians actually sneered at me because I was not willing to work like a "slave" and wanted to get back to India. They treated me as though I was not up to the mark to live in the United States, whereas my idea was that I never wanted to stay in the US permanently. These Indians routinely stayed back late, did everything their white bosses barked at them. So in a way I believe that the gross mis use of the H1B visas actually started with this mindset promoted by white Americans. This is wrong and unjustified to skilled native American labour is something I agree with being an Indian and having worked in the offshoring industry. However, on a more constructive note, given that the world is coming close and issues in one country has such a rapid and quick impact on all other countries as recently noted in the Sub Prime Mortgage crisis, there is a need to work in a co operative manner. There is a need to understand and respect each others' strengths and weaknesses and work like "nuts and bolts" rather work in seclusion. Not sure if the native American readers would appreciate my thoughts but I think that that is the way forward. Cheers!!

Skilled Worker Immigration and Fairness Act of 2007

Sponsors: Joe Lieberman (ID-CT) and Chuck Hagel (R-NE)
Co-Sponsors: Senators Maria Cantwell (D-WA) and George Voinovich (R-OH).

The Skilled Worker Immigration and Fairness Act of 2007 to ensure that America's innovative industries can hire the workers they need to fuel US economic growth, and to better protect American workers.

These Senators are front-end proxy for unbridled corporate greed. Direct quotes from Microsoft and Compete America claiming unfounded worker shortage.

Jack Krumholtz, Managing Director of Federal Government Companies like Microsoft rely on the H-1B visa and employment-based green card programs to deliver an adequate supply of highly qualified employees to help maintain our competitive position. That can only be achieved through immediate reform of these programs to ensure they are meeting the needs of our economy. We commend Senators Lieberman, Hagel, Cantwell and Voinovich for their leadership in addressing this critical problem, and urge the Senate to adopt these measures and pass expeditiously comprehensive immigration reform legislation."

"The Skilled Worker Immigration and Fairness Act would provide crucial reforms to the H-1B visa and EB green card processes that U.S. companies urgently need," stated Robert Hoffman, Vice President for Government and Public Affairs at Oracle and Co-Chair of Compete America. "Senators Lieberman and Hagel should be commended for taking a leading role on an issue that is so important to America's continued innovation leadership and economic strength."
http://lieberman.senate.gov/newsroom/release.cfm?

Indians that used to manage me didn't seem to care about laws and skills. They only promoted and help their friends. One manager I worked for even asked all the team members what religion they are (the manager was an Indian Christian). A couple were hired with totally wrong sets of technical skills (eg. Java programmers for C++ jobs) and we were asked to train them.

Most of the indians that are here screwing Americans out of jobs don't even like America! They are here to hoard money and send it back to india.

Send them home to india ASAP and get Americans back to work and back to American prosperity!

Its time to stop the visa programs, period. It's destroying the country. Why dont you write a story about that? Enough is enough.

to Kumard Kaspsi,

Can you proud Indian leave Chinese out of this one.

Just listen to you Indian boasting how you people are smarter
than others, how you dominating the Fortune 500 company,
how smartest indian are smarter than the smartest Chinese.

We Chinese has a saying, tallest tree catch the wind, better
lay low and keep quite. Rather than Indian keep boasting how they're running America businesses, how many billionaire are Indian. How they will beat others and be a superpower in 20 yrs.

I wonder why people dislike Indian from India.

to Kumard Kaspsi,

Can you proud Indian leave Chinese out of this one.

Just listen to you Indian boasting how you people are smarter
than others, how you dominating the Fortune 500 company,
how smartest indian are smarter than the smartest Chinese.

We Chinese has a saying, tallest tree catch the wind, better
lay low and keep quite. Rather than Indian keep boasting how they're running America businesses, how many billionaire are Indian. How they will beat others and be a superpower in 20 yrs.

I wonder why people dislike Indian from India.

to Kumard Kaspsi,

Can you proud Indian leave Chinese out of this one.

Just listen to you Indian boasting how you people are smarter
than others, how you dominating the Fortune 500 company,
how smartest indian are smarter than the smartest Chinese.

We Chinese has a saying, tallest tree catch the wind, better
lay low and keep quite. Rather than Indian keep boasting how they're running America businesses, how many billionaire are Indian. How they will beat others and be a superpower in 20 yrs.

I wonder why people dislike Indian from India.

I think the majority of scrutiny needs to go towards the businesses that hire outsourcing firms, not the much maligned Indian guest workers. Put pressure on the corporations and politicans; hopefully there will be more journalists like Steve Hamm whom are not afraid to report on this topic.

My 2cents worth on this one.
1. Race is the second most important thing after sex that grabs attention.
2. Once you are looking through a 'Race' prism, it's certain that your intentions are biased.You are really NOT looking at the disease, but just a symptom.
3. Almost all comments are through that 'prism', either Pro or Anti H1-B. I'm not for/against any of these comments.
4. Now, coming to the actual core issues in the article:
a. Employer exploitation of H1B: H1B is today's slave trading. H1B pays taxes, TIED to the employer, spouse cannot work, Kids go to school & is ONE bad-moment away from packing bags to home-country 24X7. This is what makes a H1B slog for his LIFE, in reality H1B's life and kids life depend on the employer's MERCY.
This Worst-Fear is making the H1Bs work crazy hours and this is exactly the reason Employers prefer them over the rest.
Right thing to do is to STOP exploitation. Free the H1B/Slave to choose their employer and provide a Green Card path to the eligible, again that's NOT one tied to the Employer.

Trust me these Satiesh Baliraos' will vanish in NO time.There will NOT be a reason for employers to choose H1B over the rest. If you put the HUMAN FACE to the program, One day H1B program might disappear on its own.

When you are bent on creating modern day slavery, Why are you blaming the Slaves for the problem that you create?
Why attach a new "race" to the age old slavery?

Peace

Folks, the horses have already bolted. There is nothing you can do now to reverse the effects of outsourcing.

If American firms need to be price competitive either within the US or outside, they will necessarily have to outsource work from areas where the work can be done cheaper. Alternatively, they have the option of producing the goods at a low cost within the US.

The option of getting the work done overseas at a lower cost is actually more damaging to the US economy than getting the done cheaper within the continental US using imported workers, if necessary. Alternatively, American workers will have to settle for much lower salaries.

Incidentally, this is true for other western nations around the world. Most western nations purchase their products from places like China, Taiwan, Korea, India, Vietnam, Philipines, Srilanka, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Malaysia etc.

But this won't go on for ever - the Chinese and the Indian salaries have increased a lot over the past decade to the point where it is now increasingly viable to produce the same goods within the continental US by outsourcing to areas such as the Mid-west where the salaries are still low. This trend of "insourcing" is catching on quickly.

Correct me if I'm wrong: if americans end the H-1B situation that would mean more divisions of IT work being offshored to India or whatever place It gets the cost/benefit contractors want ?

Indian IT professionals themselves are also quite guilty of unfair practices. They take over IT departments and ensure that they only hire among themselves. Sad to day, this kind of IT groups are too prevalent in the industry today.

Fellow Americans,
What can we do together to get our voice heard, insist CONGRESS say NO to H-1B and VOTE H-1B politicians off the island. Did you know Hillary (in Arkansas) was on the board of Walmart decades ago, little wonder she's for Outsourcing. As Senator, Hillary headed up the India Caucus band of thieves and pivotal to passing pro H1/L1 legislation? Who cares about this abuse (probably no one, Obama's pack busy patting themselves on the back with the non-recovery. Are there legal, political, organizing resources to END this fraud. Pro-H1B politicians receive generous payoffs to turn their back on the people that elected them.
http://tinyurl.com/ykxpan9

Steve,

By working with xenophobics like TunnelRat(infamous itgrint.com), you lost all the credibility. I heard you report is at the behest of these xenophobes and racists, is that true????

This is what was in his blog:

---------------------
Finally, after months of the Insurgency harrassing the Tandoori Trifecta at Business Week, Steve Hamm and Moira Herbst came through with some real reporting. Steve Hamm emailed me a few months ago and said he was on his way to New Jersey to shoot a "documentary." After not seeing anything from him, I emailed him and called him a pussy. Evidently, he got the hint
-------------------------------

SO, you have been exchanging emails with him quite for sometime. Looks like, the investigation of his site should extend to you as well.

In response to the comment headlined Zero Credibility:

Among the dozens and dozens of people that I interviewed for the High-Tech Sweatshops story, a number of them were xenophobes and racists. (And, yes, I do communicate with e-mail in addition to telephone.) That doesn't mean I did my reporting at their behest. I talk to whiners, losers, and sociopaths on all sides of issues.

Steve Hamm wrote:
-------------------------------------
"That doesn't mean I did my reporting at [the] behest [of] . . . . whiners, losers, and sociopaths."
-------------------------------------

I am an American-born IT professional who has not worked in nearly 17 months notwithstanding that I have an encyclopedic knowledge of open source software. If I understand you correctly, you, Steve Hamm, are telling me that I am experiencing protracted unemployment because I am a "whiner, loser, and sociopath."

Is that correct? Well, if so, then you, Steve Hamm, are an immigration Nazi. Please leave my country and take your cheap, immigrant labor with you.

Paul Bain, Esq.
paulbain@pobox.com

The simple fact of the matter is india is a 3rd world country and america the richest; and its just survival of the fittest in the end no matter what lines humans draw in the name of nationality, ethnicity etc. Just a small %age of americans would have visited a developing country like india and it is not a good picture.. there is lot of hardship, struggle for a better life and buying a small house, a vehicle for transportation and eductaion for children is a huge challenge for millions of indians. Its a country that has been ravaged by the britishers for the past few centuries.. and it is when you are at the bottom that you need to put the maximum effort to scrap back to the top and thats what the indians are doing as a whole.. today its h1b program that has falling under the scanner.. tommorrow it will be some other thing. The potential of the human mind is infinite.. just dig in a bit more.

Re: "Discrimination against Americans is illegal in America."

Oh, the absolute worst of the worst is Cognizant Technology Solutions.

This company is 95% Indian Nationals (even in the US). They tout themselves as an American company but its just a front for funneling offshore resources into H1-B management roles.

Someone has got to investigate this company for fraud!

Please use this tool to send online faxes to your Senators telling them to stop H1-B Visa Fraud - takes 2 minutes! And please pass on!

http://www.numbersusa.com/actionbuffet

INDIA AND AMERICA ARE ONE NATION!!!!!!!!

IN CASE YOU DIDN'T KNOW. AMERICA OWNS INDIA NOT CHINA. THEREFORE AMERICA MUST PROTECT AND GUARD INDIA (NOT SO MUCH OF ITS PEOPLE BUT THE TERRITORY (WHICH AMERICA OWNS). AMERICA'S INTEREST IS PROTECTING INDIA HENCE INDIA WILL PROTECT AMERICA. IT'S AN EQUAL LOOKOUT FOR THE TWO.

AMERICANS NEED TO GO AFTER BIG EXEC CUT THEIR SALARY THIS IN TERM WILL EQUAL OUT OUR PAY AND MAINTAIN THE PEOPLE THAT ACTUALLY GETS THE JOB DONE (PEOPLE AT THE BOTTOM).

I don't know why indians complain. They come over here on a temporary H1B visa to work on IT but must of them I know are very arrogant and put down Americans very often. I know I work in IT

In India they just put down their own people using a caste system. The ones who are here are from a higher upper caste in India. The ones called The Untouchables in India "Picking up Shit every day for a lack of sewage system don't have a chance to get an H1B Visa in India. So H1B Visa complainers if you feel that you are being discriminated here Think about your poor people in India who have to collect shit every day to survive.

Indians claim that their country and everyone of them is the best in the worl is not true. When you compare the educated with the 1 Billion three hundred millions Indians you can see that the number of educated in relation to their population is very small. So don't be arrogant and remember where you are coming from.