India – 163 years behind China?

Posted by: Bruce Einhorn on February 12, 2007

Some Asiatech readers complain that I’m anti-India, that I spend too much time comparing India to China, and that in these comparisons all too often India comes out looking bad. But of course lots of top Indian officials do the same thing. For instance: Gangan Prathap, the top scientist at the Centre for Mathematical Modelling and Computer Simulation in Banaglore. The C-MMACS, which got its start in the late 1980s by India’s Council of Scientific and Industrial Research, has its offices on the campus of the National Aerospace Laboratories, so it’s safe to say that it’s not peopled by a bunch of India-haters. Yet Prathap, the scientist-in-charge of the center, the other day made headlines with his unfavorable comparison of India to China. According to a report in Indian newspaper The Telegraph, Prathap says that India is more than a century and a half behind China when it comes to sci-tech human resources. According to the Telegraph’s report, “India will take at least 163 years to match China’s research workforce of 850,000 even if Beijing were to freeze the number today.” More: Prathap “has now used simple school algebra to show that even if India’s 4,500 annual science doctorates were to join the 115,000-strong science and technology workforce, the country won’t be able to touch the figure of 850,000 until 2170 AD.”

And Prathap is not the only Indian scientist pointing out that people shouldn’t fool themselves into thinking that success in IT outsourcing and generic drugmaking mean India’s rise as a high-tech power is a sure thing. For instance, the Telegraph quotes Rajesh Kochchar, former director of the National Institute of Science Technology and Development Studies, saying “We’ve lulled ourselves into thinking we’re doing great things.” The Telegraph also quotes C.N.R. Rao, head of the Scientific Advisory Committee to the Prime Minister, bemoaning the situation: “India’s share of global research publications in science has dropped to unbelievably low levels.” Fortunately, Indian officials like these realize that it’s useful to compare their country’s progress (or lack thereof) with that of the other would-be Asian superpower.

Reader Comments

Mike

February 13, 2007 11:50 AM

In my opinion, this is a very fair judgement that India is behind China 163 years! But not only in science realm, but also National strength, Economic power, standard of infrastructure and many more! I think, the comparison between China and India from Bruce is to give most Indian people an idea that how much China is way leading ahead of India, why India is so lagged behind! Because there are too many Indians in India who believe their country now is already on the top of world!!

A Chinese

February 14, 2007 12:57 AM

Mike,
No need say bad things about India. As a Chinese I know many of our science researchers are really bad in creativity and work motivation because research institutions in China only looks for projects that can make quick money.

China and India is growing up fast. Each countries has its own science development system. It's stupid to compare one over another.

Mr.Bruce Einhorn, I think your topics are quiet controversal. You privous articles' comments coused a lot of argument between Chinese and Indian reader. I hope you realize that.

Thanks,

Sunil De

February 14, 2007 3:41 AM

I'm from India and think Bruce has the right idea. It's a good thing to get such constructive criticism. There are places where China would need to develop and there are places where India needs to develop. There are quite a few parallels in ideals and general "life" concepts between the two countries, so the comparison is quite a good place to start off. Rather than start a flame war between Chinese and Indian readers, I think it's good input to tell us where we need to improve and would provide motivation to get us off our behinds to do something to progress.

S Deo

February 14, 2007 1:23 PM


I am an Indian staying in the US for last few years. Everytime there is a discussion about the growth in the Asian countries, India and China steal the limelight. Hence it really becomes necessary to figure out, how well both countries have come up in terms of progress.
Having spent most of my life in India, I can say for sure there has been a gradual development in all aspects. But as Mr. Kochchar points out progress in IT is not something to be considered as an overall progress by India. I truly feel it's just an icing on the cake, with the reality might be different. India seriously lacks a lot in infrastructure compared to China, and there are many topics on this website which goes on to show the development of China in terms of infrastructure. I am no mathematical wizard, but definitely I can say we (India) do lag behind China when you take progress in whole perspective..just not one sector.
India is making big strides and will continue to do so...but it needs to built a stable base on which further progress can be built !!!!!

ming

February 14, 2007 8:46 PM

It's obvious that China is way way ahead of India in Education, economy, science & tech etc etc. But I think 163 years is not correct because as I know that only half of the PhD from China is good quality

raman

February 15, 2007 12:23 AM

I wonder what is the basis of the calculations, has Prathap or Bruce defined the comparison sets what who are all included and who is not...Another point is just basing the complete analysis on number of people and that too when the data sources thenselves not very reliable...the views expressed here themselves are not based on any scientific or mathematical...foundation ...also for the sake of knowledge of Bruce let me tell you...Telegraph is not a national newspaper it is a regional publication based out of Calcutta and views expressed there-in are highly Communist baised.

I have no problem if the comparisons have a scientific basis and India lags behind but this kind of baseless unscientific comparisons and reaching the magic number 163 years just goes on to confirm what your readers complain about....

kartheek

February 15, 2007 2:43 AM

Thanks to Mr. Bruce Einhorn for giving us Indians a wakeup-call to reality; and bringing to light some important facts not reported in the popular media. Acknowledging the gaps/faults to be fixed is an important (first) step in making progress - and it is time we look at these articles as a valuable input in this regard.

HC

February 15, 2007 3:05 PM

I think numbers do lie sometimes. The government of China put more emphasis on quantity than quality. It has to do with the fact that it is a system of centralized government where Beijing sends down policies and goals in numbers for local administrations to meet. Numerous scandles have come out of China's academia in recent years, such as the plagierized CPU design by a well-known researcher. Even though as a Chinese I would like to see China's progress, I have a lot of doubts about whether China's quantity-over-quality approach is really working.

It seems to me that India has a more market oriented approach in its promotion of science and technology. With more government support, India can probably make great progress in closing the number gap. But how meaningful are those numbers is something India has to carefully consider.

Chuck

February 15, 2007 10:42 PM

It is obvious Mr. Einhorn did not mean 163 years in literal terms. Everyone can see that. I think he is doing a big favor for the Indians by injecting a dose of reality into the Indian minds.

I am being told again and again by many people (non-Indians) that many (if not most) Indians believe (literally) their country is the most powerful and influential in the world second only to US. The hearsay is confirmed by a recent survery by Chicago Council. I would quote a paragraph as follows:

"Although Indians see themselves as already an important player in the world, second only to the United States, other countries give it a less exalted global role. Chinese, American and South Korean respondents all ranked India as the least influential among nine powerful countries: the United States, China, Japan, the European Union, France, Great Britain and Germany. Chinese and Americans expect India’s influence to rise, but not by much. The Chinese see India as rising from an average of 6.1 to 6.5 but remaining in last place. Americans see it as rising from 4.8 to 5.4, surpassing France."

Here is another interesting related article

http://biz.yahoo.com/hftn/070209/020807_pluggedin_murphy_india_fortune.html?.v=1

Chuck

February 15, 2007 11:15 PM

Mike

February 16, 2007 11:05 AM

this is my second post to bruce article! my standpoint is that Indian people need to fully understand your country true overall national strength! you canot live in a daydream that India is only second to US in this world!! Indian people do need to admit a fact that China is at very least 30 years ahead of India in terms of modernisation! just like how Chinese people admit a fact that Japan is 30 years ahead of China! majority Chinese people NEVER ever dream that China can catch up Japan one day although China's economy growth is 10% each year, maybe not even getting close! This is the gap between Japan and China, so the same gap between China and India! does it make sense?

Steven Kempton

February 18, 2007 2:36 AM

You're a stirrer Bruce. But looks like you are getting lots of bites. Well done.

David Scott Lewis

February 20, 2007 10:41 AM

Whether it's 163 years or just 16.3 years, it's the fact that China is indeed ahead of India -- when it comes to RDO (R&D Outsourcing/Offshoring) and ESO (Engineering Services Outsourcing/Offshoring).

And, guess what: This is pretty much the between-the-lines conclusion from NASSCOM.

Our site has a section titled, "Why China?" which gives a lot of details pertinent to this discussion.

Afsal

February 20, 2007 7:44 PM

Did Prathap consider the numbers of the patents acquired by the Indian scientists working overseas? Of course, these patents will not help India. But these scientists are Indians. Ennalum ellam verum thaayolikala. India will definitely gain from the increasing reverse brain-drain resulting from the economic growth of india.

Steven

February 21, 2007 4:50 PM

http://newschecker.blogspot.com/2007/02/china-runs-fast-in-innovation.html

China's patent filling in 2005 increased by 56.8% to 3910.

India's filling decreased from 679 in 2005 to 627 in 2006

That's a big difference in the numbers and the trend in the two countries

steve

February 24, 2007 3:45 AM

Bruce
I have seen many of your blog covering many fields where India lags behind China such science, economical development and social welfare etc. However, there are two most important fields you have not yet covered that yet have most implications on world economy in this centuries. One is the widely documented average IQ difference between Indians and Chinese. If you GOOGLE “IQ and wealth of nation”, you will find many publications and articles on the 1 ½ SD in IQ difference between Indian and Chinese. Historic stats also show a strong correlation between the fortune of a nation and its national IQ. That can well explain the more impressive advance China achieved even though India has a more market oriented economy. The other is the physical and mental toughness and endurance to succeed. This trait could not be better demonstrated by India’s near zero show-up in summer Olympic Games. For last four Summer Olympic Games, India has achieved ZERO gold medals for a population of more than a billion! Unless India can prove it can catch up in these two areas, I will not bet my money on India.

Rich G

February 26, 2007 2:34 PM

The truth's always bitter! A lot of Indians who think India is tops are those that have never been out of India - and have no way of comparing for themselves how things are in other countries.

They are constantly fed this self-appreciating crap from the local media - with very little sprinkling of objective coverage.

Wake-up fellow Indians!

kedar

February 26, 2007 7:32 PM

II recently was on a trip to India after a gap of 2 years. And in that duration I had spent a lot of time covering the media regarding the growth and the leap of the “tiger”. Well my expectations during the visit were sadly shattered. I agree with Bruce as well as the number of other writers who have commented on the comparison between India and China. However, one factor not yet spoken of is that of self discipline, which is clearly lacking in almost 90% of the Indian population. A carefree attitude called "chalta hain" (translation: let it be why bother?) has been deeply rooted in the mindset of our population. Even though there are large investments in infrastructure the plight of the work is deplorable as not much is done after the job is completed to maintain and improve. Corruption hand in hand with politics creeps in. The state of roads, traffic, pollution and population with no strict guidelines to control and enforce just adds to the vows. It is great to see the figures of 8-9% GDP on paper but this growth has to channeled and for that every citizen is responsible.

Mukundan

February 26, 2007 8:56 PM

to all the steves,chucks...and other western names who post here? are you guys chinese are westerners?? i guess if few writers write about india shining...then the whole of india thinks they are number 2 is it? actually you guys have not been to India. no one in India (except few writers like this pot stirrer Bruce) has time on their hands to compare where is china where is japan or america. people are busy making both ends meet. all i can say as an indian i am happy India is making progress, and people are finally sensing opportunity to do their things and unleash their creativity and enterpreneurship...finally as the economy opens up. a journey of thousand miles starts with a small step...may be we are 163 yrs or 163000 yrs behind china...that is ok with us...as long as we can make food available to every indian that is the most important thing...to us.

Kumar

March 11, 2007 9:56 PM

I am an Indian pursuing PhD in designing new algorithm for optimization in Australia; and it took me over two year to create a perfect working algorithm as I have to spend some time to work part-time to partly earn my tuition fees. I didn’t leave India in search of big money but for making my future in field which is not considered by Indian Industries; believe me I could have designed the same algorithm in any Indian University within a year . I do not know, who was the first to act in the war between China and India, but I did learn that China have occupied most of our territories. Also, I did learn that most of the regional king/ prince agreed to join India state after its Independence; and I am quite doubtful about Chinese claims on Arunachal pradesh. I haven’t read about claims made by western/European authors about war, Arunachal Pradesh; but after having lived in Australia for more then two years I can only say, “most of their work are done to have a fame and name in media”. And may be there is no historical fact about how the people from (mind you its not white skin as most of not-fair skinned people with run away from you as you would look like characters in horror movies) Europe were involved in mass killing of local population in American, Australian continent; get yours act clean then talk of other people rights; on the top you talk of equality but under yours skin you think of back stabbing other people; once we mastered the art of computing you felt shaken and ran away, we challenge you to be creative and make yours own place; you come to learn about our science and culture and when we ask about yours, you make excuse; come on come out clean and don’t to back stabbing, which I had experienced in this lab. We (Indians) may be backward in many fields, sport, R&D, etc; I would say if all of Indian population are able to pursue his goal, Live healthy decent life, have no problems dealing with district officials, travel different in India and part of the world easily; I do not care what the world says about India as they are not the one to come to our rescue when we are in danger; they have the attitude to watch and wait. And they come to help with better media coverage to show how helpful they are. The other day an Australian was saying, he is a diamond merchant and had a horrible experience in Mumbai, India. I said him you should stop doing business in India and this will give a big jolt to sleeping lazy Indian officials; indirectly I said him, you went to India for yours own gain, India didn’t call you. We have to clean our own act to be the best in every sphere; believe me after my experience in this lab I have realised WE HAVE TO HELP OURSELF.

Mehul Nanda Kumar

March 20, 2007 4:51 PM

So Mr.Kumar,

What made you got to Australia?Why did you leave India and when do you plan on coming back to our motherland India.
YOu talk so much about India,but you are are the first leave and run to Australia.If you are so happy in India then why leave.
I am an Indian and I hate people who talk so much yet leave India.

prasant

April 3, 2007 7:13 PM

There is no comparison between India and china. China is not decades but centuries ahead of India. The biggest problem with India is democracy where the biggest voting block is illiterate, not to insult the voting block but that is the reality. Now sticking with education, the politicians for the sake of getting votes have introduced 50% reservation in everything educational institutions,scentific positions, government etc. You might have scored 95 percentile but if you are in the so called forward caste you will not be able to make it but if you are from the so called backward caste even if you score 40 percentile you will still be able to make it. Now this is not an isolated instance but this is the norm, 50% of everything is reserved, with such weird social experiments how will India create scientific talent. China day by day is improving while the "great democracy" India is day by day crumbling. India is only going to become worse not better.

Maria

April 12, 2007 12:46 PM

I am neither Chinese or Indian, but all I can tell is that Indian people have the biggest heart in the world. While the Chinese try to prove and are selfish (along with USA and most European countries), Indian people focus on what life is really about....What you think really matters before you die? To show that you built large buildings or to say that you helped people...you decide...

Bala

April 14, 2007 5:19 AM

Sensible constructive criticism.

Ram

April 21, 2007 2:43 PM

Comparision between china and india has become a obsession for sick people in the west and india. China and India are two different countries, with different cultures. They have nothing in common except they both are in asia and have billion plus population. COMPARISION is stupid and idiotic. What makes more sense is suggestions on what both countries can do to improve their situation. I don't like this guy BRUCE he seems very shallow ,silly and stupid nothing important to write he is resorting this kind of stupid journalism. SICK GUY JUST SHUT UP AND DO SOMETHING IMPORTANT

Avijit

April 27, 2007 12:50 PM

(1) Numbers can decieve you if you are one of those who have the compulsive habit of extrapolating all trends "linearly" and drawing grand conclusions from it. Just 40-50 years ago someone could have worked out a similar calculation for Asia v.s. the west and conclude -"Asia will take 100+ years to catch up with West, if at all". But now Asia is catching up not in centuries, but within tens of decades; why? Because growth trends of Asia now are >> than that of 50 yrs ago. Linear extrapolation don't work everywhere.

(2) I read one of the commentator bring in IQ and olympics. This reminds me Einstein's quote- "Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity". Posting such half-assed pseudo science/concepts, steve not only proves the latter but also belittles the standard in this site and of its content. IQ differences are because of socio-economics (there are also thousands of documentation on that by authentic scientists, not a hand ful of pseudoscientists) and is globally reducing on average and faster than any time in the past. And olympic failures is because of lack of investments in sports. Some governments don't care a crap to invest in sporting facilities for their people. Both can change and will change not only for India but ultimately the world, as they connect more and more to global economy.

(3) The fundamental trend: Underlying every trend of world economy (and usually very slow to be percieved in a single human lifetime), the fundamental trend is that - world economic center of mass (COM) and world population COM are coming closer, and closer, and closer. War, mis-governance, global warming, food-water crisis, health/education problems, etc, etc are slowing the process, but in the long run that is the fundamental trend/change thats happening in the world. Ultimately every human walking on earth will like to plug and play in this ever widening global economy, whenever circumstances become conducive for them to tap into oppurtunities that the world offers.

(4) Because of the above, China will overtake US. Not just because of the greatness of its government, not just because of its confucious values, but most fundamentally because it has a larger population. It is for same reason Japan could'nt overtake US as some linear-trend extrapolators thought it would a decade or two ago. In todays globally connected world, given enough time (atmost a few centuries), demography will trump all trends (esp. those that play over decades, like those related to quality of governance). Therefore I think, India will catch up with China, not in 2020, not in 2050, but surely before 2150. This is for no extraordinary skills of Indians , but for the mundane fact that UN predicts India will have the largest population some time this century. It will take "163" or more years if India does not increase its annual rate of doctorates, but it is stupid to assume that India will not enhance its education as its economy improves. Most of the Asian growth in science has happened in no earlier than last few decades. Every nation that has developed it economy has increased its science/tech output and so will India. In longer run, even Africa will consolidate its share in world economy.

Dinesh

May 3, 2007 9:27 PM

I feel India is actually ahead of China. The growth we witness in China is from foreign investment and not from strengths inherent in the Chinese economy. As Martin Wolf says in his book "Why Globalization Works", poor countries are poor for many reasons, but rich countries are rich for the same reasons and these reasons are 1. rule of law, 2. property rights 3. democracy and other things like a judicial system, financial institutions, etc. Though India is not doing well on some of these factors and that is why it is poor, China has a miserable record on all of the reasons that make a country rich.
Therefore, though India may not be economically ahead of China since it started the liberalization process a decade later, the fundamental institutions that can lead to prosperity are in place and thus I would consider it ahead of China. History has repeatedly proved this and it will prove it again.

jcage

May 3, 2007 9:57 PM

Our fellow Hindus always like to bring the following to state that India is ahead of China:
1-Democracy
2-Property Law
3-Rule of Law

Democracy or demoCRAZY is more likely. Caste system, massive child labor, massive poverty and more.

Rule of law in one of the most corrupted country of the world. China admit that there is big corruption and it fighting but whether it succeed or not at least acknowledge the problem first and then take the require step to fight it.

Property law is nothing more than a slogan in which many people in India lose land due to the SEZ project in which people get paid a misery for their house.
Keep dreaming since it is cheap and easy

ammadio

May 4, 2007 1:22 PM

Ahead or not doesn't really matter. What matters is :
1) 24hrs water and electricity
2) 100% literacy
3) affordable public transport
3) eliminate corruption (this will make 1,2 and 3 happen easily)
4) respect for public property
5) respect for others time

deepa

May 7, 2007 3:50 AM

jcage-by writing my fellow "hindus" you have disclosed your nationality pretty well.We all know about our friendly neighbours.
Reason india started this campaign for "India shining" was due to massive oppressive poverty,child labour,etc.etc..country is saying that-with so many problems of third world,it could do so much..just imagine what it can achieve if these problems are removed.Indian people don't compare themselves with Chinese-They compare with their own condition 10-15 yrs ago.

himanshu patel

May 7, 2007 2:24 PM

guys use your brain and compare two countries.,
let first excercise a democratic election in china,then start compairing those,your eqation might be work raverse.

Rahul Pratap

May 13, 2007 11:18 PM

Namaskaar,

I readeach and every comment, but I have not read anything which matches my opinion.
I have seen most part of the world, be it France, Italy, Spain, Norway , Malaysia or USA. I have met with people with grey hair and all say India sparkels not just shines. They were confident of India.
True wealth of India is democracy, energetic Youth and imaginaton of these yougsters. India is pragmatic in approach. We don't do PHD rather we prefer to do MBA to achieve what is necessary for the time being.
We beleive in ourselves and confident that we will surpass every nation before 2020.
India's growth comes from people at work and not pushed by the government. India is using money, energy and time very efficiently. I am sure that we will SUPERPOWER before anyone realises the same,

JAIHIND

pragmatic

May 14, 2007 10:49 AM

You claimed:

"India is pragmatic in approach"

"We believe in ourselves and confident that we will surpass every nation before 2020."

Let's see how pragmatic you are. To surpass every nation before 2020, India needs to have ~25% annual GDP increase to surpass USA's current GDP. Go back to work your tail off to achieve this, buddy.

I am sorry, the only possibility that India will surpass every nation will be its population.

Manoj Jain

May 15, 2007 10:15 AM

Let China become a Democracy first and then talk anything about comparisons. All the numbers on China are manipulated by the Communist Party and to base any comparisons on those is plain stupidity.

progmatic

May 16, 2007 11:11 PM

Most indians like to brag about their democracy, but in the mean time, they hate their corrupt government and their corrupt officials, and tend to blame everything bad on them. I am a little puzzled.

According to Wikipedia, "Democracy is a form of government. ...... Democracies are typically created as hybrids of many different principles, but the common element of voting is seen as a main characteristic of most forms of democracy." Voting is a main characteristic of democracy, and the elected government and officials are then the main results of democracy.

If you think that the elected govenment and most elected officials in India are corrupt, does this imply that indian democray isn't really a working democracy, not something you really want to brag about? You shall be proud of the results of your democracy, namely, your elected govenment and your elected officials. Then, you are at least not hypocritical.

Is there anything wrong here?

armila

May 18, 2007 3:11 AM

I have visited Bombay. I'm from America and
I was surprise to see people living in the streets
among rich people there is no separation
and the gov doesn't do anything for their own people so much poverty i was sad to see the metropolitan city in such condition, yes i believe
they are behind in time for a country that is rich in culture and education...

averageguy

May 18, 2007 11:34 PM

I found this page after doing a Google search regarding corruption in China versus India. Not surprising, both have corruption problems. I think in an increasingly interconnected world (hello Indian friends, and hello Chinese friends) the nation state becomes less important. Innovation and prosperity will be driven by talented people regardless of country. The successful with be those who can see beyond "us versus them".

Safal

May 23, 2007 4:39 PM

Well well well... Here we go again. Let us for a while forget 163 years. Let just focus on the facts.

China... A communist nation known to provide un-reliable figures. Most developed nation don’t trusts the figures provided by China. Often, not even UN. But we should. Right?

India... Telegraph Newspaper from West Bengal, the biggest communist state in India. A local news paper providing XYZ figures, without any basis. Even the locals reading the newspaper would take the facts with a pinch of salt. But we should blindly trust. Right?

Alright, now let’s talk of 163 years. HA!

Agreed, there maybe more QUANTITY of scientists in China. But what about QUALITY. Not to say every Chinese scientist is average and Indian scientist in India is brilliant. But one needs to take both factors in account before providing any kind of comparison. Maybe China does have 10 times more brilliant scientists than India. Who knows? But we can’t trust the figures unless they come from extremely reliable source. Can we?

Also, Mr. Bruce and Mr. Kochchar, Sir, it is only common sense to understand India will not continue to produce X amount of scientists for next 163 years, nor will China stick to a fixed figure. You should have taken it into account before displaying half cooked facts. I don’t think anyone in the world can predict about next 10 years, let alone 163 years.

Finally, please remember, incomplete and/or incorrect information is worse than a lie. So next time, before anyone compares these two great nations, please come up with complete and correct facts.

Should you do so, I would love to enlighten myself, and my Indian & Chinese friends with your narratives. Till then… 163… HA :)

Indianview

May 28, 2007 2:10 AM

Yes, The Telegraph is communist supporting newspaper of West Bengal. These are those Indian communists who did not oppose Chinese Invasion & resulting war in 1962. So, two sources , one from communist country and other communist backed newspaper ; both are unreliable source of comparing such a point.

I agree that India's politicians & corruption is not allowing any significant road infrastructure developments. Ruling politicians don't look beyond 5 years of their term. Majority don't have great vision or planning. So many burocratic hurdles. I know that corruption exists in western developed world also but it is not at the expense of people. Infrastructure & planning are not given a toss in western world. There India lags behind. China being communist country , can mould the vision much faster than India, as India is always stranded in political hurdles. We , Indians can also develop world class infrastructure if there is strong political will to it ( e.g. Delhi Metro which was implemented with western speed & not Indian speed ).

jonathan

May 31, 2007 10:38 PM

I saw very few Chinese responding here. Acutually I am a Taiwanese working in Beijing since last year. I have ever travelled to India and within China quite often. In terms of 'hardware" - infrastructures, China is surely leading ahead of India by far. But people here in China are so money-crazed that they become more selfish and heartless. I live in a rather nice community but people seem to be very cold and indifferent to the plights of social problems...My observation is partial but I do admire the speedy build up of nice shopping malls and roads..here espeically for the olympic games.

oohkuchi

June 15, 2007 3:25 AM

I'm a Briton who has lived in China and just briefly visited India (three days in Delhi). Knowing little about India, and knowing well from two years in the PRC how difficult it is to generalize about vast and complex societies, I'll stick to first impressions regarding the big comparison.
I was shocked at Delhi. Despite all I have read about the Indian tiger, it looked to me as though nothing new had been built there since 1947, apart from the 3-line metro. No supermarkets, no retail chains, no convenience stores, not enough air conditioning, power cuts, tepid hot water, battered buses, rubble roads, a dead dog on crumbling Connaught circle (a prestige address) the eternal cows everywhere .. and half the population seemed to be living by taxi/rickshaw driving or street hawking.
Two years ago I was in Shanghai, which still has many of the problems of Delhi (slums, beggary and filth to name three) but has one foot firmly in the first world now. Hangzhou, further inland, is a completely modern city, comparable in infrastructure and housing terms with much of Europe, though wages remain low.
In Delhi I saw real China-style development in one place, the suburb Gurgaon, which looked like 1990s Shenzhen.
Based on this superficial curious tourist's view, I would say that India is at least 10 years behind China in infrastructure, which I think is the key--more than FDI and exports--to China's success. Anyway, I wish the Indians well. I'd love to read what others who know both countries well have to say.

suraj

June 16, 2007 10:36 PM

Excuse me here...are the 2 countries having a competition? Both have their advantages and disadvantages and needless to say...both are rocking!!

Celestial Emperor

June 17, 2007 1:37 PM

Indians always claim that Chinese figures are unreliable. Just how reliable are Indian figures? or is this just a case of sour grapes for the Indians? Chinese never make any negative comments about India first. It is always the Indians who start the mud slinging.

Indians have an obsession with comparing themselves and their country with China. Indians try to copycat and just wanna be everything that Chinese do first. Just to state a few examples:

1. When China became a country with 1 billion population, India also has to become one (though I have to admit this is one area India can easily outperform China HA HA :) )

2. When China became nuclear power in mid 1960s, India suddenly feels the need to conduct it's own nuclear test a decade later.

3. When China's economic reforms that began in the late 1970s started to produce fruitful results by the early 1990s, suddenly India also wants to start economic reforms and then claims India will overtake China :) .

4. When international thinktanks hypothesize China as the next superpower, suddenly India is also widly claiming to be a contender for that slot.

5. When martial arts became well known and accepted throughout the world thanx to Chinese like Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan etc. Indians dig up story claiming that Kung Fu came to China from India using the legend of the Indian Buddhist monk Ta-Mo's tenure at the Shaolin temple in China to argue their story. Then why isn't India a leading country for martial arts today? India doesn't even figure anywhere in the world's martial arts scene.

6. When a Chinese movie wins world wide acclaim and wins several awards at the Oscars, suddenly Indians are pushing one Bollywood flick after another to try to win at the Oscars but so far no luck for Bollywoood BOO HOO :( .

7. When China successfully launched it's own manned space program a few years ago, suddenly Indians also wanna be space faring nation and predict India is gonna beat China to the moon. *ROLL EYES*

These are just a few examples of India's "advantages" over China apart from the all too familiar Indian mantra of democracy vs communist dicatorship, "freedom" vs no freedom, knowledge of English vs no knowledge of English, India produces more and better engineers and doctors than China blah blah etc etc.

Then ofcourse theres:

1. Indians are the richest ethnic group in America. So what happened to the Jews? Don't tell me they are all working for Indians now. LMAO :)

2. 60% of doctors and engineers in N.America are of Indian origin. No wonder the health care system in N.America sucks big time.

3. 60% of NASA scientists,specialists and managers are also of Indian origin. Is that why NASA is embroiled in controversy stemming from corruption and incompetence nowadays? Yeah maybe thats why the Americans are becoming increasingly depedant on the Russians for many space flights. :)

Even if all the above stats about Indian success in N.America can be proven true (which I doubt), it still points to the fact that Indians cannot do well in India which is their indigenous environment.

Apart from China, countries with a Chinese majority population like Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore have reached developed and prosperous levels while any country with a large Indian population like Guyana, Trinidad and Tobago, Surinam, Fiji and Mauritius are underdeveloped third world states prone to political instability. Even countries in the Carribean that have black majority populations like Bermuda, Bahamas, Barbados and the Cayman islands have managed to create societies with high per capita incomes. As a matter of fact one of these countries is the proud owner of the world's highest per capita income, higher than even the western countries or the oil rich states of the middle east. If any of these countries had a significant population of Indians, the story would have been quite different. That explains why India is what it is despite all the Shining India claim.

I am not trying to say that China has become 100% developed like America, Japan or Europe but DAMMIT !! Despite all it's problems China is light years ahead of India. I can understand (though not appreciate) the westerner's arrogance when they try to put China down but who the hell are these lowly Indians to have the brazen audacity to bad mouth China all the time when their own country is like a gutter in comparision. It's like the dish calling the kettle black.

jun

June 17, 2007 10:30 PM

I don't get it. why are people getting so worked up about this? 163 years? Its like the big bang theory, y2k and the length of time your notebook battery can stand. They are just figures, based on what someone feels is right. a mere prediction. and most of the time it has been inflated, deflated, sqished and squashed. the figure-163- is then used as a title so as to catch our attention. its nothing really, just a weak journalism tactic (we shouldnt even call it journalism, sorry einhorn). even statistic lecturers admit that statistics are just numbers that indicate something, and is not to be used as a kind of holy grail as a piece of eveidence.

and china and india both have their strengths and weaknesses. sure, china is expanding, so is india. china has some good infrastructure, in some selected areas. not throughout the country. the other parts are still undeveloped. india, i believe, is developed in a more uniformed manner, though the development is still far behind the more developed parts of china. what i am trying to say is that infrastructure and a few other factors cannot be the determinants of who is ahead. it has to be a combination of many factors.

also i think that the people who give arguments like who have the bigger hearts, or the number of olympic golds as indicators are kind of off the track. unless we want to compare both countries in terms of who is ahead of who in sports... or courteousness of the people. these two factors, and some others mentioned by some people who have commented, are irrelevant.

and try not to be emotional when you are commenting. that's such a juvenile thing to do. otherwise, we seem like a bunch of kids arguing over 'my mommy is better coz...'.

rob

June 18, 2007 3:10 PM

Bruce, you are anti-India, you do spend all your time puffing up China, and what's more this magazine Businessweek does the same thing in their articles! Do you want to know why I know this? Simple: in this post, you say 'China has 850,000 researchers'..and pray tell, how do you know this? China is NOT a democracy, they ROUTINELY lie and fabricate stats about their rate of growth, etc, to attract investment...and yet naive Westrerners like you believe them. India is a free democracy, and so Indian officials criticize and worry publically about their nation, which Chinese, with their insular and fearful culture and dictatorship, cannot do.

In one way, China is 1000 years ahead of India. China is way better than India at lying, manipulating stats, and fooling naive Westerners like the bloggers and owners of Businessweek.

prasad

June 20, 2007 5:34 AM

The number 163 means that India is now going thru China of year 1844. Get your facts right. Agreed China is definitely ahead of India in terms of infrastructure, economy. Each country is unique. China and India both have distinctive advantages and disadvantages. Comparision is useless. I wish Indians and Chineese all the best.

yaseen malik

June 23, 2007 2:15 PM

Actually India is nothing but a paper tiger which barks like a dog when trying to bully smaller neighbours like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. India claims to be a military power but the Indian army is the most impotent. They got beaten by a small rag tag rebel force like LTTE in Sri Lanka. To furthur that the Tamils send a suicide bomber to India to blow the Indian PM to bits so as to send a message to the Indians to keep out of Sri Lanka and it worked, India is now so scared of the Tamil Tigers that the news that the LTTE had acquired a few small aircrafts was enough to send shivers up the spines of India's spineless civil and military leaders who feared kamikaze style attacks on India. India is pathetic.

It would be better for the Americans to drop their crazy policy of trying to contain China. China's rise is assured no matter what the Americans or their lapdog India may attempt to do to stop it. It would be better for the Americans to just do business with China and stop needless promotion of good for nothing India.

India is a hegemonistic bully pretending to be the world's largest democracy. India harbours designs to swallow it's smaller neighbours and annex Tibet but India cannot do anything as long as China is around, thats why Indians are so spiteful of China. I feel much comfortable with China as a superpower than the imperialistic USA and people would want India as a superpower only if people wanted the world to get screwed up at breakneck speed.

yaseen malik

June 23, 2007 3:46 PM

INDIA'S 'OPEN' 'FREE' AND 'DEMOCRATIC' SOCIETY

Three-year-old charged with rioting

PATNA: Police in India have charged a three-year-old boy for allegedly leading a group of rioters and firing at security personnel, the toddler's uncle said on Thursday. The incident dates back to a clash in the eastern state of Bihar between villagers and police in January, when officers were pelted with stones and shot at, Dhruv Kumar Jha said.

Shortly afterwards, the young Raj Kumar was “charged with throwing stones at the police and firing at them,” he said.

The family ignored three summons, prompting uniformed police to turn up at their house and tell the dumbfounded parents to produce the child before the authorities.

But hope is not lost, with the family insisting the boy has a rock-solid alibi. “He was at his grandmother's house on the day of the clash. So the question of him being there does not arise,” Jha asserted. Instances of Bihar police charging children for crimes are not uncommon. Last August, a court in the state dropped charges against a six-year-old boy accused of molesting and assaulting a woman in her thirties.— AFP

SD

June 30, 2007 10:46 AM

Yaseen Malik, open up your eyes before you open your mouth. Not only are you hugely uninformed but it appears, going by your name, that you are somewhere from Pakistan or maybe just a muslim showing your indifference towards a nation for obvious reasons. Heh...you are as much a dreamer as anyone else who has no global perspective on anything, let alone your own country. US will be the only superpower by 2030, all that China hype is a crock of. Wanna know why? Read this - http://futurist.typepad.com/my_weblog/2007/06/an-inconvenient.html

http://futurist.typepad.com/my_weblog/2007/03/is_it_easy_to_m.html

http://futurist.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006/05/why_the_us_will.html

SamNav

July 3, 2007 1:28 AM

Hi All,

The post and comments, what to say.
Let all Indians read this post and stop boasting and show what really we can do.
It is the world out there want us to day dream because they knew our potential but we don't realize it.
Let this post be an eye opener for the Indians.
Do not worry about China they have their own problems.
Let us unite and prove to this world that we are not a joke.
Our IT is good, make it best.
Now Concentrate on Manufacturing and Agriculture.
High Quality + Required Quantity production will be the strength of India.

square

July 4, 2007 10:10 AM

I'm just curious about how indians see the war broke out in 1960' with China. (coz sb mentioned it above)

I'm in no position to comment on the war, coz each side has its own story. But I can assure all of you guys that the war was definitely not an "invasion". The reason is simple, during 1960' China was suffering from severe natural disasters and internal political riots (the Cultural Revolution Movement). There was no reason on earth for the Chinese to start an "invasion" against its strong neightbor just for a very small strip of poor land during a time of crisis!

I don't know why Indian government tells their schoolchildren that China started an "invasion" agains India. As far as I know, Chinese government at least never try to influence its own schoolchildren to build up a natioanal hatred against India.( of course, Japan is another story)

In fact, Chinese people are quite friendly to Indians.

yaseen malik

July 4, 2007 8:47 PM

SD - Stupid Indian

It is you and your fellow countrymen who live in fantasyland that need to wake up. Yeah, I am from Pakistan (thats besides the point) and you'r probably another Bharat mata hyping Indian immigrant (whether legal or illegal) in the west who has no plans what so ever to return to 'shining' India. Theres no bigger crock of s--- than all this India this and India that hype which is 90% being promoted by Indians themselves to an audience which is overwhelmingly Indian.

All those links you provided are more anti-China trirades which are written by Indians or westerners pissed off by China's success. I am not surprised.

America is already the sole superpower in the world today. The question is whether America will remain a superpower by 2030 and if India will be a paper tiger or a crumpled piece of waste paper without Uncle Sam's support.

rupesh

July 7, 2007 6:31 AM

Is it just about Economy & infrastructure???

atleast we indians have right to sure free Internet, talk free, talk against any body, atleast we have our basic rights.

Steven

July 8, 2007 7:23 AM

http://newschecker.blogspot.com/2007/06/incomplete-list-of-political-violences.html

Look at this link before you talk about India's democrazy. That's litterally the largest battlefield on this planet.

Mohan

July 8, 2007 7:25 PM

India as a super power is a story that's more often raised by the Western media & India's local media, copy cats as they truly are, picks it up with equal gusto.But the fact of the matter is most Indians don't care what the media says. Smart ones know where their country stands & illiterate ones are simply oblivious of it all, blissful as they are in their ignorance & poverty.But the silver lining amongst this messy state of affairs is that the country is progressing inspite of it's Govt.We all should pray for the sake of humanity, remember country is 1 billion people strong, that all people have access to the same basic amenities that is taken for granted in the developed world.What India needs is closer connection with the developed world than competetion.

Tracy@Miami

July 12, 2007 9:00 AM

I agree with Bruce..
I was outsourcing from India, China, Russia.
The work ethic in China is much better than India.

Thanks

asoka

July 14, 2007 10:59 AM

prasant - ugly brahamana

It is brahamana and dirty looking banias like you who are responsible for the current state of India. What is the point if just 10% brahamana population gets everything. Why all the priest jobs are reserved for brahamans.

Affirmative action is required to make other groups progress.

Brahamanas are the sole reason for india,s current state. These people forbade indians to study, travel abroad and also raped the rural folk in temples where they only became priests. It is obvious that with such a huge parasitic and criminal brahaman and bania class India would go nowhere.

sethu

July 20, 2007 6:36 AM

My question is why are you making it as a big issue if India or China don't bother about this?

seetobelieve

July 23, 2007 7:41 PM

More india students have chosen China as their higher education destination. Even very remote Ningxia Medical College can attract a large number of these students:

http://www.nxnet.net/newspaper/2006-11/14/content_997990.htm

According to various sources, the total number of india students in Chinese universities is at least close to 10,000. Most of these india students, according to publications in Chinese newspapers and websites, all go through initial shock of China's modernization because of India media's overall negativity when they report China.


Please check out following paper on this subject:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/oct/18spec1.htm)

Direct quote from the paper: After the United States, Britain and Australia, Indian students are now heading towards China for higher education....Like in foreign investment, China has outpaced India in capturing the international education market. Education experts who visited China say the Communist nation has become the most sought after study-abroad destination. "India is just missing the international education bus. China has invested so much in higher education over the years that that the country is producing many more quality students than India. No wonder then that Indians too want to study in China," says S Gopinath, an education expert who regularly guides Indian students on getting admission to various Chinese colleges. Asian Education Consultancy, a top consulting company in southern India, says medical education in China is of a higher quality and lower cost compared to India.

One can expect that these india students, now in great numbers, will one day go back to India and help build bridges between India and China.

Aaron

July 23, 2007 8:36 PM

I have been following the stories about the rise of China and India for a long time.
Yes it true that economically and "visually", China is far ahead of India. However I wouldn't scarifice my freedom of expression, religion for money.
India is behind because it is democratic and it will take 2 years for an entire state to vote to built a new bridge. However in China, it takes two days and two people to decide to plough a 15 lane highway right through people's houses without their consent.
China is growing to fast and most of the time finds itself covering the bad things like corruption, high crime rate, child labour and tainted foods.

Celestial Emperor

August 4, 2007 12:30 PM

Aaron says

"China is growing to fast and most of the time finds itself covering the bad things like corruption, high crime rate, child labour and tainted foods."

These same factors exist in "democratic" India as well and are just as bad if not worse than in China but Indians argue that China is growing much faster because it covers up all the bad things while India is like an open book that allows all to see it's badness. I would like to ask these Indians this question that why isn't "free and fair democratic" India doing anything to solve these problems? Atleast China is producing double digit growth in return for all it's "badness" while India can't do anything other that praise itself for being more transparent (as according to Indians themselves ofcourse).

kaif

August 11, 2007 12:06 PM

It is not a rhetorical rant but a serious question that needs reflection and introspection that Why wouldn't Indian Muslims leave India to live in Pakistan/Bangladesh?. Read more on
http://diggindianews.com/IndiaNewsPolitics/Why_wouldnt_Indian_Muslims_leave_India_to_live_in_PakistanBangladesh__DRISHTIKONE/

haneef

August 11, 2007 12:12 PM

Indian Muslims are the second largest community on religious basis (over 20% of India's population is Muslim).� Now, of course, to an outsider a Muslim is a Muslim is a Muslim.� But is it true?� No!, says Mohib.� Here is why:
http://diggindianews.com/IndiaNewsPolitics/Poverty_amongst_Indian_Muslims_and_the_Reasons__DRISHTIKONE/

Richard

August 13, 2007 3:30 AM

Maybe be ten years before, China is 200
years behind U.S. But if we do it by a right way. We reach there on 30 or 40 years.

So, it's no use to say India behind China how many years!

jcage

August 13, 2007 5:08 PM

China is 200 years behind USA so China should be around 1807 USA technology, is this correct?
India would 400 years behind USA by your logic!

Chittar Kumar

August 16, 2007 10:56 AM

Celestial Emperor:

While enjoying your breast-beating China songs and thrashing us lowly-indians, I hope that you execute more people for the thrashy Mattel toys, poisoned toothpastes, poisoned pet foods, thrashy Chery cars (didn't it fold like a matchbox in the Russian car crash test?). I can go on....Before you disparage Indians, take a peek at how you obtained wealth. No unions, Tiannamen, gagged press (You can find out all the dark side of India, but can we find out anything from your press?). Executing an official while the system is messed up? What a solution!!!Did that come from your PHDs?

INDIAN

August 19, 2007 1:50 PM

Hi All

I want to ask some simple things to chinese.

Why you went paranoid when India and USA signed nuclear deal ? If India is really behind you, why cant you neglect what is coming in the media ? I am sure you have a hidden fear in your mind about India, on the freedom and intellectual front. You pretend to be very smart, with extreme ruthlessness and dictator type laws you build beautiful cities and cheat the world. By manipulating the currency, you sell goods at very cheap rates killing competition. You pay media worldwide to write good about China and bash Indiaer. You deny freedom to your people and the press in China is like a monkey in a circus tent. I feel chinese are the most ruthless and insane , hearless people in the world. You are more materialistic and hard than anyone.lieing, cheating is your facevalue, is there any single enlightened person in China ? India may be slow, have filthy streets, so why you become paranoid when we do something? why? Because in your inner mind, you are afraid of us, our Intellectual power, the rotting and dirty scenes behind chines politics will never comeout because you will eliminate anyone who write the truth, here in India we never do that, so also west and USA. In truse sense china can never be great, it will eventually meet the same fate of USSR. wait and watch. The presence of god and spiritual powers in India you can never see, because you are blind with materialism and deceit.

Celestial Emperor

August 19, 2007 3:45 PM

C Kumar:

When it comes to hyperbolic driven hollow triumphalism, nobody beats you Indians. Just take a look at the majority of all Indian posts here (yours included) and you will know what I mean. The majority of Chinese posters have argued with reason with some being mildly cynical. I perhaps being the sole exception with being blunt. The point being that you Indians dish out criticism by the ton but can't even handle a little criticism in exchange. Indians are insecure and fragile, theres no mistake about that :-)

You say:

"I hope that you execute more people for the thrashy Mattel toys"

Regarding the Mattel scandal, nobody has been excuted for that yet. Toys are mean't for children to play with, not put it in their mouths and start chewing and eating it. If the child in question is endangered then whos fault is it, the manufacturer's or the parents who fail to supervise their kids properly? In similar light if a 1st grade student is in the habit of chewing the lead tip of a pencil and falls ill because of that, then is the manufacturer liable? I am not saying that there aren't some unscrupulous businessmen/manufacturers/vendors in the mainland, plenty of those in India as well I'm sure but the way the fuss has been created by the westerners over the toys from China when seen through what I have pointed out is just ridiculous. It isn't difficult to tell that the real reason for all this latest anti-China fuss is political in nature. First toothpastes then pet foods then car tyres and now toys. I am expecting more such attacks to continue.

"poisoned toothpastes"

Poisoned??? I'll admit made in China toothpastes aren't upto the mark but nobody has died by using those toothpastes as yet :-)

"poisoned pet foods"

Guess what?? A lot of poisoned pet foods were discovered to have been made locally in America with some imported from Canada. China wasn't the
sole culprit in this case.


"thrashy Chery cars (didn't it fold like a matchbox in the Russian car crash test?)."

So what do you expect? It's a car not a tank. Didn't princess Diana's armoured Mercedes turn into a mangled wreck upon crashing into a concrete barrier? How do you expect the Chery to fare batter? Talk about trashy cars, don't tell me that the Indian made Ambassador car (which looks like something from the days when India was under the British Raj) can deflect a shot from an anti-tank missile :-)

If India is as great as Indians and some anti-China westerners love to tout then I suggest dissatisfied westerns shift their manufacturing facilities to India. Let's see India fare better. Plenty of scandals are coming from India's call center industry involving credit card fraud and identity theft. Even India's overhyped software sector has produced numerous cases of shoddy work with irate foreign clients threatining legal action against the Indian software developers.


"I can go on....Before you disparage Indians, take a peek at how you obtained wealth. No unions, Tiannamen, gagged press (You can find out all the dark side of India, but can we find out anything from your press?)."

Yeah right!! Does your press give the full picture of the exploitation and oppression that the lower castes are subjected to on a daily basis? You Indians are over hyping your success. What you got to say about that?

"Executing an official while the system is messed up? What a solution!!!"

The dish calling the kettle black, LOL!! Look whos talking as if India's dysfunctional regime is a success story for all to emulate. Atleast corrupt officials are brought to task in China. Unfortunately there are many of them so it's gonna take a long time to straighten things up in this area but compare that with India, not only are the corrupt officials not punished but are re-elected into office again and again. Your own ex-minister for defence George Fernandes took a page out of China's book when he recently stated that if Indian PM Manmohan Singh were in China, he would have been executed for witholding the facts concerning the US-India nuclear deal but unfortunately in India he can get away with it. From George Fernandes's own mouth. Any more lessons in accountibility?

"Did that come from your PHDs?"

I am still working towards that PHD :-)

Rei

August 20, 2007 3:43 PM

I came across this page. Out of curiousity, a question for Indians: Why are you so obssessed with democracy? Was there no India before democracy? Have you failed to see the Barbaric behaviors of western countries that are all democratic? And why are you so obsessed with the USA? After learning USA culture and its history, I have come to despise that country. You need to live in it for years before you finally understand how low its culture actually is (with repect to its people. People are the same in the world. OK people with a bad, very bad culture runing through them)
I am not concerning the silly China-India comparison , I am just puzzled by the mentality of Indian bloggers.

China is awakening and making first step to fufill her destiny (Middle Kingdom again or at least a major civilization). Why are Indians (only the youths?) wasting time in even thinking about China but fufilling your own destiny too?

Thanks for responding...

Good Bye, all

August 20, 2007 6:10 PM

163 years? Why not 162 or 164? Pretentious!

First and last post

August 20, 2007 6:23 PM

163 years? Why not 162 or 164? Pretentious! A non-sense article by a useless westerner in a vulgar american mag. What is wrong with you people? Is this a street newspaper handed out by the little dirty hands of children in a gehtto?

Why am I even posting here!!
Good Bye, all.

Argha De

August 28, 2007 7:33 AM

all i can say is only the god can help this corrupt, country.
regarding development . india can never develop.
It can only follow others path in technology. No critivety or invention the indians can do.

Sovani

August 30, 2007 8:55 AM

EVERYONE SEEMS TO HAVE MISSED THE MAIN POINT

India is definitely way behind china in almost all aspects by which development is generally measured. However, India has an ACE. And that is India's ancient Spiritual Heritage. This is probably the one and ONLY thing where India is way ahead of everyone else. Only time will tell what wins - Spiritual heritage or Material heritage.

guqin

August 31, 2007 1:59 AM

Argha De, Sovani,
Spiritual heritage will win. I am a Chinese deeply worried by the future of my country. What future a people have when they tear down all traditional houses, allowed Starbuck put in the Forbbidden city, put astronomical sum of money in that stupid Olympics and fancy that is a national pride?... Last night my friend and I talked about this issue, both of us despised that kind of "development". Japan has done well because they don't have their own culture (borrowed from China). But they won't have a seperate future aside from western prosperity. India and China are original civilizations that is why we have so many "problems". I have lived in US for many years and have seen the meaninglessness of that sort of "superpower", one has to experience it himself in order to see the EXETREME self-centeredness of the citizens of this superpower and the lonliness and meaninglessness of American life. China is 163 years "ahead" of India, so India has 163 more years to save herself from that disaster. My Indian friends, do not dispair over the corruption of your country. During the periods between two dynasties in China's histroy, it was perhaps a lot worse. History has proven the immortality of Indian tradition. Your country will win. Though I have been saddened by many irrational insults at my country from Indian bloggers on the Internet, I still have the deepest respect for your culture.

Pamela

August 31, 2007 12:50 PM

Both India and China Made products still lack in Quality control as compared to market markets like Japan, Korean and America or Europe. But in terms on advancement speed. My personal feel as I work in IT line handling both countries, India speed is slow down by its too democratic society and political situation. China has 1 government type and their marching orders dictate the IT growth and investment directions with execution seen. India talks a lot and progress slow

May The Force guide China

September 3, 2007 1:23 PM

guqin

Atleast China doesn't have that abhorrent caste system that Indians live and die in. True that it is imperative that Chinese should rediscover and reinforce their original culture and values while trying forge into the modern world without the trappings of that decadent western culture and India is hardly a role model to emulate. Indian society is more superstitous than spiritual. Besides the mean and menial mentality being displayed by a whole lot of Indians towards China demonstrates the true value of India's "spiritualness".

guqin

September 5, 2007 12:14 AM

I don't know what to say.

Hug you, My dearest Indian friend!! History will decide the worth of our cultures, let's be patient at this moment!

kesav

September 5, 2007 5:38 AM

Dear guqin,

I appreciate your comments, I truly agree ur opinion and I apoloize you if u hurt by any Indian head weight people's comments on China. I have travelled 3 times China, have been living in Western Europe for last 6 years. I knew very well about the conditions in developed and developing countries. Bruce and Mike, you both have some Psychological problems and seems very weak in mathematics, my sincere advice is you both need psychiatric treatment and go to school learn basic mathematics. Better stop this kind of stupid posts again.
good luck

sa_ind

September 8, 2007 8:19 AM

As my id suggests, Im Indian. However, let me try an objective (but still a subjective) analysis of the topic.Ive had the privilege to work in the IT industry in India and US, that has given me some understanding of how Indians and Chinese work etc. Here's a brief of what my take is on the topic -163 !!!.

- I think number of years behind or ahead is a wrong way to compare progress of any phenomenon, place or person. Simply because growth is not linear and can go up or down and in any magnitude.

Another factor is that in India atleast the common dividing factor now seems to be education rather than gender, caste or religion. (Not that these factors do not play up a little).

- It would seem factually correct to say that China produces more Scientists than India does. Simply because Chinese have bigger population and economy. Currently, China is about 2 times of India in terms of size of economy. I dont have hard numbers regarding # of PHD's etc; however I understand that China has a good Primary and secondary school eductaion system (much superior to India's). However, that India does manage to rival China at premier Institute levels. As India has invested much more in Higher education compared to Primary & secondary; this is reversed in China. This tends to make India have this educated elite who have good (relatively) education and who would tend to produce resources that will be happy to do highly skilled jobs.(doesnt mean that the quality of output would be great,though).

So we have China where most people have basic school and college education and of a reasonable standard and therefore the ones who pursue higher education are typically of a standard without much standard variation. With more depth and width in China in terms of the Univ's and institutions of higher study...the number of folks who are pursuing higher education is pretty good.

On the other hand, we have India where there are good premier institutes but a poor lower level education system. This means the folks who managed to get to study at private english medium education will now fight to get into these few institutes of higher studies. This surely means the number of students going to Science studies is much lesser and there is not much depth of talent pool. However, there is a good width as India has invested in having all kinds of scientific institutions.

Recently, the number of primary education schools and higher studies institutes have increased intake and also started new one's. But, the increase is maybe 20%. Whats required is 200%.

So India will lag behind China on this count for a while. As it takes a while to play catch up, even if India wakes up today.

So lets put India as having 200000 against the 850,000 china produces. This is worse than the GDP ratio of 1:2(approx) that India has to China. Surely, India needs to double the numbers and to keep quality at a good level needs to invest heavily into Primary & secondary education.

- In the long term I do sense, India will challenge China very strongly. It will be much better than people from China, Pakistan or west expect. Reasons are given below.

China's development is based on FDI, much like the rest of east asia. While they are prosperous but they matter little on the International scene as there is no true transformation. Even Japan (being the best of the Mongoloid lot) is insular and xenophobic. One cannot be a world superpower while one is culturally xenophobic. Anglo-saxons who rule the world recognise that being 'Objective' is being truly modern. This apart, lack of democracy is as prevalent in East Asia as in West Asia except that the populations are westernised working in western companies and 'behave' in a western way. They tend to think by doing so they separate themselves from the 'inferior' west and south asians. Apart from a few exceptions most countries have monarchies, lot of them have military rulership or even worse have US troops on their soil.In return they have got FDI and all the infrasturcture. Despite the last 40 years of lead, they havent truly produced an 'East Asian' century...decades yes !!!

Does it have to do with IQ?

Some IQ researchers have found East Asians having higher IQ than others but the lead is built upon due to the extra 'Visual' IQ..or whatever the term they use....Are they too focused on matching the West in the way things look. Rather than build the foundations that the west built. The soft institutions...intellectuals.

I have many friends from East asia and have no biases. This is my analysis till now...maybe evidence can be provided to prove my contention wrong, I know not.


Well, my take is East asians are great folks...in many ways developed. Much ahead of India, ofcourse. But lack leadership !!!
They probably have more purchasing power than europe but still are followers. Why?


Contrast that to India of today. Its just been 16 years, since our lower IQ'ed leaders opened up the economy. But still we have more billionaires.(Not sure, if thats something to be proud of). In China, the govt leads..In India..private sector.

No wonder, amount of investment required in China is higher than in India.

In India, the private sector is truly innovative and does things at lower costs than possible eslewhere. Just to give you an example. The retail sector is booming in India now...sure China is ahead but most of the stores I know of from there are just me-too copies of whats there in Europe and US. In India, within first 5 years of inception grocers have invented a new conept. Direct-to-home.(ie home delivery). While it might be there elsewhere. But the local busineses innovated themselves...


The homogenous race stock of china means that there are hardly any language barriers, In India at last count atleast 20+ major languages co-exist....China should have been 4 times bigger than India not just 2 times as of right now. (that too as they started with liberalising in 1979, India in 1991)


So, I will post more thoughts..and I have much more...as I receive flak or praise..I close by saying..Im shocked at India being so close to China as it is currently..as with the advantages(as below) China had they should have been further ahead.

- Higher IQ (China has to be ahead of India...given the higher education levels and that does impact IQ a bit. Plus, East Asians have inheretly got a higher IQ)
- They opened economy in 1979. India in 1991.
- They are a much more homogenous country. India is mutlti-racial etc etc...
- FDI in China is huge compared to India. Funds are required to build an economy and your scientific base.

I wont even mention democracy etc....maybe later...

secret33.com

September 11, 2007 7:44 PM

India and China are fast growing economies. They should avoid making the same mistakes that European countries, England, America and Japan have made. The future belongs to them. In 20 yrs they would dominate the whole world in everything.

Bruce

November 22, 2007 8:43 PM

163 years old, China was the only superpower in the world. As such, India is already a superpower now. Congra to all indians.

yasin malik

November 23, 2007 5:04 PM

India is already a superpower???? SAYS WHO?????

Does India have the power to influence affairs outside of Indian borders???

Does India have the economic and military clout of a superpower???

How hi-tech is India apart from outsourced coding for microsoft?

Even tiny Bangladesh and Sri Lanka can show India the finger when they feel like they should.


This Bruce is just another Indian self-promoter hiding behind a phoney western alias who doesn't have the capability to support his outlandish claims with hard facts.

Having 1 billion + mostly poor and starving wretches is India's idea of being a superpower.

Rashid

November 24, 2007 5:26 PM

Newest BW Headlines:

Bruce Einhorn – 163 years behind the human race?

jcage

November 26, 2007 12:42 AM

I hope that Bruce Einhorn stop provoking more the Indian and the Chinese people for his own amusement. I mean most of his blog is part opinion with some fact sprinkled into it!

saugata roy

December 15, 2007 3:04 AM

I am from India. I definitely agree about this matter .Its very important to point out this type of constructive criticism. Which will ultimatly help our country to develop. But according to me India is not backward on science field but also in economics, finance, infrascture too. If we look at the past records of both the country on various field it will make us clear, that why india lagging behind China. And for this reason our socio-political enviorment are also liable for that.

MK_Delhi

December 23, 2007 11:37 AM

It's OK to compare and compete. However, it's not GDP but gross national satisfaction (happiness) that matters. As an Indian, I am afraid our Chinese friends are ahead of us even there. At least the quality of interacts one sees around indicates as much.
To my Indian brothers and sisters: we don't have to sound adversarial while competing. Heck, we are not even competing with each other. We have to overcome our own demons.

shinson

January 11, 2008 3:20 PM

I don't think so. There are definitely few areas where China is way ahead of India but the above statement given by an Indian shows the lack of facts and statistics of the concerned person.

Historically China and India has chosen different paths for development. China has given more importance to foreign direct investment (FDI) and India to its homegrown entrepreneurs.

Today in Indian market we see many “made in china” product. But how many of those manufactures are indigenous Chinese companies. China is becoming a production house for all the global companies because of its cheap labor and easy government laws. But those companies won’t hesitate to come to India if they are given the same facilities here. Compare this to India which has produced real MNCs like TCS, Infosys, DRL, Ranbaxy which are competing with the best in world in their respective domains.

In all Forbes Lists number of Indian Incs are always more than China. In the current scenario all the figures are in China side but in long run India is going to be the country who ‘ll be in a better position.

The two most important aspects for the growth of any society are Freedom of press and Politics. And no one can deny the fact that right now India is in a much better position than China in these two areas.

yasin malik

January 14, 2008 8:16 PM

Another India boaster. *ROLL EYES*

chakde! india...@yashin

January 23, 2008 2:40 AM

Here we are discussing the development of India & China, but it is very surprising to see that a Pakistani is having problem with this, and at least we can compare ourselve with superpowers but you Pakistanis can't compare youself with us.

It's very harshening to see that because of few people whole community gets the bad impression. Yasin Bhai, first of all try to improve your home then if you get time then come to us. We will give you a very friendly response.

When it comes to India and China , China is definitely ahead of India but not as mentioned...like 163 yrs. But both are in booming period and both .........rock!!!

Alice

February 12, 2008 4:55 AM

I never go to India. I am living in Germany now. Here people think India is the same as China. Both are very poor. For those arrogant German people there is no difference between the two countries. What should I say to them?

Anonymous

February 13, 2008 11:26 PM

Alice,

You only need to smile. Ignorance is a bliss, for them.

paul

May 20, 2008 11:52 AM

both china and india did have much in common. buddism a religion made in india. however there are hardly any buddists living there. china has a large buddist community therefore political and cultural differances are easily resolved. india has 100's of cultures and many religions so taking care of every1 needs is a political nightmare. chinas monetary sucess is all a result from american investment, however with all the ideas the indians have, it is sure to become a world power in the future that will contest with america!

TripleFire

July 20, 2008 12:07 PM

I like both places. However, the amount of development and the ongoing pace of development in just one large city in China appears to be bigger than anything in the whole of India.

But let's add some perspective to that. I remember going on a highway in Shanghai, looking down and seeing a few more levels of highway below, looking up and seeing a few more, looking out as mile after mile of new buildings passed ... going to the new airports, looking at all the new cars, going to the hotels with new appliances, easy access to the internet, the poorest people carrying around the latest cell-phones ...

What I'm saying is, I live in San Francisco and have traveled frequently to places like LA and NYC and I think we are getting to the point that we can probably say that China's infrastructure in the main cities has surpassed that of the US.

When I go to China I also realize everyone else is wearing newer more fashionable clothing than me, their phones have more functions than mine does, and they all seem to go to large bookstores and coffee shops just like I do.

India is very similar to what I saw in SE Asia; streets without lanes painted on them, full of trash and waste with no real sidewalks and few lights, dust floating up from everywhere and people just floating about the streets randomly.

Ask for an espresso in Bangalore and nobody has any idea what you are talking about, nor do they want to. In China, if they don't know the word they are just ask likely to ask you to write it down, smile and tell you to wait a minute, then go and confer with someon who might know what it is.

In what I consider a uniquely Chinese approach to life, I have had this result in people simply finding a place with espresso, going there and buying it, and bringing it back with the price of the effort built into the coffee. They don't ask why I want espresso or tell me it can't be done. They simply look me in the eye and realize I've bothered to leave my room and am standing there in front of them asking for something and that this too can be turned into a transaction.

This is not a good topic to breach, but this kind of attitude extends right into nightlife.

First an aside on work to set this up. I love working with people in India and on the job it's a fantastic place where everyone sincerely likes to be part of a team and they get excited about it and it makes you want to go to work. Chinese co-workers have in my experience been very civil and very good to work with, but they are fundamentally competitive and they do not share their strategies for success unless you are a close friend.

But come the weekend and India has nothing at all to offer a foreign city-goer like me. I love ancient culture and have spent a lot more time reading classical books than most Chinese or Indians. But in both countries I don't care about old buildings constructed by dead people and the long bus or car rides and crummy tourist stuff that go with it.

I just want a drink in a nice place, not far from the hotel, maybe a girl to chat to. Or a hot-tub and some reflection on the week that has just passed. In India, you just don't talk to people passing on the street and the nightlife is pretty much Indians dressing up for each other and playing it very safe. In China, you have to tell people what your limit is. I have chatted with Chinese girls with little or no education and English, and they had almost no fear of talking to a stranger and if anything I was the one who felt naive and purposeless in my conversation. I just wanted to talk. They wanted to know everything I know, to absorb every echo of a thought I ever had about any opportunity the world might provide.

On into dinner conversations. Indians talk about local things and local places and the comforts of life and social events within their tight circles. They seem to hesitate to ask me what my opinion is of the country or the culture. Chinese put all that aside and ply your for what you like and take you where you want to go, and they ask for your opinions and (though I'm pretty careful about what I say) do not try to lead you away from making negative observations.

The impression I end up with is, Indians are like Americans in that they have a sort of religiously inspired ideas that you can just grab the good stuff in life and look past the bad. And in such a tough place, I can understand that. Which is what makes China so odd. In the face of completely competitive and strenuous modern life or the horrors of the streets, Chinese will talk about the bad with the good without blinking once.

So, in the end, I think in industriousness, frankness, and orderliness, the Chinese and Americans have more in common. In creating a sociable work environment but setting lots of limits in personal life on romance and lifestyle due to religious traditions, India and America have more in common.

If you are a kind of Germanic or Anglican newswatcher and book-hound who likes materialistic order and wants to find satisfaction in a pragmatic way in a real daily lifestyle, I think you would want to spend more time in China.

If you are more of a Euro type influenced by the Romance countries and like the idea that there is a moral order to things and that thinks like monogamy are an imperative part of life and you believe that striving for a sort of idealistic "happiness" found in movies and musicals and pragmatic things look ugly to you, maybe you would have more in common with Indians.

All just my opinion of course. I'm still traveling to both countries, working with people and getting to know them.

In the end, I'd like to have a clear view of things, as the US doesn't really have a clear standard or "culture" and I'd like to find a reasonable social model to learn more from. I don't want to find what I'm looking for, unless it is in whatever is really there. I feel if I can just learn more of the reality, then I have a better chance of enjoying what is there. And I intend to continue to visit and enjoy both countries.

triplefire

July 20, 2008 12:10 PM

PS: China has very little Buddhism actually, as far as I can tell. This is what Westerners like to say, but it has little role in daily life. China's culture is mostly a-religious.

India is an extremely religious place, which makes it have more in common with the US. In India and the US people put lots of sexy things on TV and sneak around and have relationships but generally frown on having fun sexually in public outside of marriage.

arun kumar muthiah

July 20, 2008 12:45 PM

i feel india and china are both developing at a faster rate.they have the potential to overhaul USA.
but lets compare china and india.
china values quantity over quality.but india psyche values quality.(which should help her in long term)
* one important dirty truth about india is it is run by corrupt politicians who act like hooligans and decide the fate of india without any technical or sceintifical analysis.who just run the state to enrich themselves.

all we(india) need is able and bold leader who will rise above the less mortal fearful person of regional politics(as you know there R 18 regional languages and ethinic societies in india each with regional parties and its own culture)
to an leader of international stature like abraham lincoln.to awaken sprits of india

reason why there not so many reaserch findings in india

*only twenty percent of people get good educations(remainings students get their education in schools where there are only two teachers for two hundred to three students)
35%percent are completely illitrate who can't even write their own name.
this is one reason.
*only 2 percent of people do post graduation
*even these guys would select lucurative jobs in private companies and settle themselves as managers which is entirely urelated to core subject what they studied.
*this happens because they can get 10 times more salary and social status while settling themselves in these private mnc's rather to break their brains in government research lab
*the corrupt politicians don't think of this in india they are busy amassing wealth for themeselves
*ratio of allocation of funds in research 1:100 india:china

*with all these fault we (India)still developed indegeneous nuclear weapons and hitech missiles .i still belive one day with able leadership india a spritual super power will rise into a super power and challenge us.

butfor now china is 20 years ahead of india.

back note-
indian peole as a whole "except politicians" are gentle ,spritual ,listen to their heart over mind ,here values weighs,strongest family bond only some far east asian can match us.

but i feel some kind of dictatorship is there with chinese .for eg tibet issue and there are lakhs of tibetans and their leader live exile in india as refugees sorrowly away from their home land which china captured.

i like to tell some thing to yashin malik(pakistani) at least with india peple beleives there is a potentiel and a bright future but all they see of pakistan is a gloomy picture of destruction waiting to happen or democracy being overturned by militants.

micheal

July 29, 2008 11:51 PM

bruce...you are a b*stard, yes u are. But i like you. hhehehe. Keep up the good work.

You make ppl face their own internal demons.

Dinesh

August 1, 2008 12:29 PM

@ Celestial Emperor,
Mauritius is not a third world underdeveloped country,like you said. Mauritius has a higher income per capita and better standard of living than China.Despite being such a tiny island with no natural resources.The percentage of poor people in much higher in China than in Mauritius. There are Chinese people working in construction and textile industries, just like Indians. And these people would welcome the opportunity to stay in Muaritius for ever if that would be possible. Mauritius is knowm as the paradise of the Indian ocean and this is mostly because 70% of its population is of Indian ancestry.All the successive governments have been led by Hindu majority members,since gaining independence in 1968.Mauritius is a real democracy,mostly because Hindus are freedom loving people.The majority of Mauritians are bilingual,speaking both English and French fluently.
You can not compare Mauritius with countries like Hong Kong,Taiwan and Singapore because these countries have been developed by the British to a great extent before they left. Especially Hong Kong.The Chinese will be investing in a multi billion dollar project in Mauritius known as the Tianli project in the coming years.

Celestial Emperor

August 4, 2008 12:55 PM

@ Dinesh

Why do you compare Mauritius with China, Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore?
Why not compare Mauritius with India or any other Indian majority populated place like Guyana or some of those Carribean island nations and you will know what I mean.

You claim that Mauritius has better standard of living than China. That may be the case for now until the near future especially since you are comparing a tiny spec on the Indian ocean with a colossal country like China and all the inherent problems that come with such a large nation. It is obvious that Mauritius has a comparitively higher per capita income than China when you average the GDP of Mauritius against its tiny population of a few hundred thousand. But China has a much better standard of living than India, now thats a more reasonable comparision. Nowadays you will find far more Indians living in China than Chinese living in India despite you Indian's relentless claims of India being a democracy, freer country etc. etc. Don't be such self-patronizing hippocrates.

There are tens of thousands of Indians living in Hong Kong and Singapore, both have Chinese majority populations. Why do so many Indians prefer to live here rather than go back to India if it is as great a democracy as you Indians claim or migrate to Mauritius?

For your information the British may have ruled Hong Kong but they sure as hell can't take credit for building up Hong Kong. That credit goes to the hard work and industriousness of the local Chinese people who built up the business and financial system of Hong Kong that made it into a world class financial hub today, something that neither your Mauritius nor India is. Same case with Singapore as with Hong Kong. Thats why so many Indians live in both these places. There are far more Indians living in Hong Kong and Singapore than Chinese living in Mauritius. Check your facts first before posting.

Taiwan was never ruled by the British. Your inclusion of Taiwan as part of the British sphere of influence shows how well informed about facts you Indians really are. Anyhow Taiwan didn't need to be part of the British Empire to develop into the high-tech place that it is today. Taiwan's progress is proof of that and once again it was the indigenous Chinese population of Taiwan that made it possible. No blessings from white masters was necessary as seems to be the case with you Indians.

No more India Vs China

August 7, 2008 3:46 PM

If India wants to catch up with China adn the rest of the world, this is what they must do.

- Get rid of caste system.
- Get rid of that colonial mentality. So speaking English will make you successful? Look at the Japanese, S. Korean, Taiwanese. They didn't need English to succeed. And look at Nigeria and Kenya, the Africans there speak English too. Did they succeed?
- Like Russell Peters said, "Indians hate each other." Start loving each other, stop the hating.

Bhaskar

August 9, 2008 12:29 PM

I think in another 10 years time we may say the other way round we may say that India is way way ahead of china I think this articles claim to have made India nothing but I BELIVE IN INDIA AND I BELIVE IN THE PEOPLE OF INDIA. LET US SAY WE CAN BEAT CHINA SAY AGAIN WE CAN BEAT CHINA BUT LETS WORK TOWARDS IT.

Thanking You
Bhaskar

Bhaskar

August 9, 2008 12:31 PM

I think in another 10 years we may say the other way around that china is behind us and we are way way ahead of china i think this aricle is just bluffing on unscintific lines but I belive in India I belive we can beat china within the span of 10 years. EVERYONE LET US SAY WE CAN BEAT CHINA SAY WE CAN BEAT CHINA IF WE WORK TOWARDS IT

Thank you

The Dragon fries the Indian Cow

August 12, 2008 8:54 PM

BARK AS MUCH AS YOU WANT INDIANS BECAUSE YOU'LL STILL BE BARKING "INDIA WILL BEAT CHINA" 10 YEARS DOWN THE ROAD WITH NO END IN SIGHT

Lynda

September 20, 2008 8:00 AM

Take the constructive points and discard the bad ones.No point fighting here.Are we doing any good though?Both countries can work together towards fulfilling their goals and tearing down barriers on the path of development. Let them work on their weaknesses not forgetting their strengths.

AC Johan

September 29, 2008 4:12 AM

I am based in SE Asia and have to travel within the Asia Pacific region in the course of carring out my work.
I always look forward to my travels to China.But each time I am scheduled to go to India, I dread the thought and wished it will be over asap.
It's fun and and rewarding working with the Chinese even they drive a hard bargain,once a deal is made, everything falls in place and the business is usually smooth sailing.
I can't say the same for Indians. It is usually more talk than action and in 2 instances, I was actually cheated.
Chinese talk big but they match their purchase orders with the same size.
Indians also talk big but when their orders aren't.
Apart frpm business, Chinese cities are such beautiful places to be in terms of really good food, all sorts of entertainment,efficient transportation,cleanliness etc.
Indian cities on the other hand are backward,sloopy transportation,filthy and smelly and generally chaotic.
Btw, communication is not really a problem in China....who says the Chinese don't speak English? Many do these days.
In my opinion, India is not in the same league as China, and China is still pulling away.
Just heard China sucessfully conducted their 1st spacewalk and that, just after the magnificient staging of the 2008 Olympics.
Shanghai will soon be playing host to the World Expo.
Comparing China to India is like trying to match a lion and a monkey.

Wu

November 19, 2008 4:41 AM

First of all, China is superior to India in every way.There is no comparison. Even in sports the indians can barely win a medal, as compared to China and their own leaders admit it and do nothing about it. Very puzzling since even the poorest countries in africa can win more medals. The indians can't even do basic stuff like building descent roads. In fact, Indians are migrating to China and stay because of the superiority of China. We can compare this relationship between America and Mexico. I would not even go to India on holiday- even a small country like Thailand has far far better infrastructure and there is a descent hotel in even the most remote places.

So, I just feel sorry for indians. They will have good economy, but it as the indian national symbol- the elephant. It will take them centuries to catch up, if they ever get there.

Bai Le

November 22, 2008 12:39 AM

India begged for freedom and independence,but China fought for them.

......

December 7, 2008 9:49 AM

hey Bai Le
you are absolutely right that u fought for your freedom........good for you.
did u give a thought as to why the Indians didn't.....Because unlike ur thoughts The indians forced the British to leave humiliated and made aware that there time has come.....U get the point now.

AC Johan

December 9, 2008 11:37 AM

After the world war 2, Britain lost it's appetite for colonies and gave independence peacefully to most of it's colonies.Not just india.
China was never "colonised" by Britain or any western countries but was occupied and forced to "give concessions" of certain parcels of real estates and to surender it's foreign trade to western countries such as Germany, Britain, France,Holland,US, Russia etc. Infrastructual remains of such occupation can still be seen at the famous "Bund" in Shanghai. Not long after WW2, when the Chinese Communist party took power from the Nationalist party ( who since withdrew and remain in Taiwan until today), the foreigners were all kicked out of mainland China without needing to do any major battle.

tom

January 15, 2009 11:43 AM

Most Indian have low self-esteem and inferior complex. I read it from an article from a Indian professor.

Puzzled

March 28, 2009 5:02 PM

Had China and India been in a hypotheticaly reversed situation, a situation where India were ahead of China in the ways China has been ahead of India as the world witnesses, a typical Chinese would ask the following questions in a sincere fashion instead of denying and barking as some fellows in this forum demonstrated above:
1. Why India's GDP is almost 4 times as big as China's given the similar population size?
2. Why India can top the olympics games while China stays near the bottom of the medal tally?
3. Why India has had successful manned space trip and space walk, China has had none?
4. Why India started to have ICBM capability since 1980s, China still could not manage to do it?
5. Why India always tops Olympia Math competion, China still struggles at the rank of 40th, far behind Viet Nam?
6. Why India can build its own fighter jet, and China can only buy from other countries?
7. Why India builds its own world-class heavy tanks, and China failed its effort and could only buy from other countries?
8. Why India can not only build its own nuclear power plants, but also help Pakistan to build some, while China can only pin hope on the help from US to build one or two?
9. India has already demonstrated its capability to shoot down a satellite, when China will be able to do it?
10. Why China is so much behind India even though China gets all the help she wants from US, Russia, Japan, Europe while India could hardly get the same?
11. What can China do to catch up?

Indian Friends, I know that Chinese were asking these kinds of questions in late 1970s and 1980s when they were thinking of how to catch up with Japan and US. Judging from the ways some Indian readers blatantly and verbally attacks China while reading an article by Bruce, a third party, India has indeed long way to go not only in terms of its economic development, but its people's mentalities as well. Let's wish India will grow and prosper, but the only hope for that to happen is on its own people. They need to first acknowledge that they are behind, then quit empty talk, roll up sleeves, and work hard. It's that simple!

dan

July 8, 2009 2:07 AM

No word of a lie! I read in one article about a lack of infrastructure development in India that in Mumbai, there are 800 people to every toilet! It's a good thing they have freedom, cause you've got to give the people freedom to do their business outside with such a shortage of toilets. Someone from a previous comment just created a new word I never read before but it completely describes India "demo-CRAZY"!!! Stop obsessing about China's development and your democrazy and freedom to do whatever you want( and I mean that literally) and focus on giving your people the bare(ass) essentials.

Ram

September 19, 2009 6:40 AM

Mir.Dan you have been red this article 15 years before. May not be recently. i red all comments but i think foreign names express here are without no doubt chinese.Every single person can understand these are not foreigner.They have their own time. they don't have time to spend for such matters. I think china is top in looting science and technology from western country. Your country brought top scientist from former soviet union countries like Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Azerbaijan. They are very poor now. so It is easy to catch them. That was only why you do at some least something..ok
But your scientist(Chinese natrionals)can n't do what you have achived now.

Angelica David

September 24, 2009 3:34 AM

I have been in india and china. Devolop
ment in both countries are defferent kind. In china development is in cetralised one but in india it is whole development reaching to every corner of the country. Chana try to hide every bad thing it has ,only a few cities are urbanised.But in india they cann't hide because publised and democracy.

aznpride

January 28, 2010 12:10 AM

to all my chinese and indian brothers and sisters. DO NOT FIGHT AMONGST EACH OTHER. For the first time in centuries, power and prosperity is shifting to the east. White people will try everything they can to make sure this doesn't happen - even if that means taking sides. Let us not forget the British colonization or the Opium wars. DIVIDE AND CONQUER is how westerners dominate. We asians are developing and the west will try very hard to prevent unity amongst non-white people. China and India are very different but both countries have the chance to become better. Let us not let western tactics ruin our growth!

K2

February 5, 2010 3:52 PM

Well Said Aznpride,
'Kill with a borrowed knife' this is what west is progressing ...

mancan

April 22, 2010 1:48 PM

A lot of these comments cracked me up. The truth is that both India and China have been around as nation entities for 6,000 years or more. MOST IMPORTANTLY, they have co-existed peacefully during this time.

Western powers have ravaged the globe in less than 200 years, decimated native cultures, and continue to do so. India and China will find their place in the sun, and neither needs to measure their success as seen through western eyes.

And while we're at it, let's go easy on the hate spewing around on this blog as well.

C. H. Ng

April 26, 2010 11:30 PM

Whether one's country is infront (more developed) or behind another country does not really matter & there is nothing much we can do about it. Cos it's kind of God's making; like if you are born rich or poor, intelligent or more stupid.

Only way to improve one's lots or your country's problems is to work more harder, more intelligently like changing altitude & perception to adapt ourselves to changing environment & development, and etc etc. There is no point to waste time swapping insults or making excuses here in the blog.

Even if your country, China, is way ahead of India (and any other country), so what? You are still behind Japan & other many developed western nations. Likewise for many Indians here, there is no denying fact that you are behind the Chinese, but then again so what?
Just try & see where & how to improve & make your country better instead of making lame excuses here. Worse still is being made used of by the western medias to drive a wedge & split the good relationship of both China & India.

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Bloomberg Businessweek’s team of Asia reporters brings you the latest insights on business, politics, technology and culture from some of the world’s biggest and fastest-growing economies.

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