China can build things. Why can't India?

Posted by: Bruce Einhorn on September 12, 2006

India’s top science and technology official is in China, making excuses about why his country’s infrastructure is so shoddy. Shanghai has brilliant new skyscrapers and museums and parks and trains – and Bombay can’t manage to have a decent airport. According to Minister for Science and Technology Kapil Sibal, it’s all because of democracy. “There is a different model of growth in our country,” Sibal told reporters in Beijing, according to this report from wire service PTI carried on Indian portal Rediff.com. “We can’t, for example, build a Pudong overnight.”

Well, neither did the Chinese. Pudong today is the result of more than a decade’s worth of work and planning and investment. The place is hardly paradise; Pudong can feel overwhelming, especially along the district’s broad boulevard. I’m not saying that Indian officials should be trying to replicate Pudong in Bombay. But falling back on the old “We’re a democracy, don’t expect too much of us” argument doesn’t cut it. Yes, the Chinese don’t have elections. But the Japanese do. So do the Koreans and the Taiwanese. They manage to build things anyway.

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Reader Comments

hm

September 12, 2006 01:09 PM

Sure, India could go the Chinese way with shiny new cities and great infrastructure - and with all the environmental damage and millions of workers at the bottom of the pyramid working in sweat-shop conditions. India, with its huge population, diverse and rich culture, should find a better way of utilizing the enterprise and creativity of its people, without massive disruption of life for the poor.

Marty

September 12, 2006 03:05 PM

India also has problems with its culture - a dysfunctional and rigid class system that is resistent to change.

India also can't just raze all the small shops and build some megamalls. Doing a Chinese style makeover would throw the country into chaos. China is experiencing the biggest mass migration in history, but trying that in India would result in big problems and civil unrest. China can politically afford to ignore the "rabble"; India doesn't have that luxury.

India will have to take longer to transform itself than China.

Sourav

September 13, 2006 12:23 AM

Kibal is not off the mark when he said that(if he said that - cannot believe journalists nowadays). Although it is no excuse.

Let's take a hypothetical case: The Government announces construction of a new highway in Mumbai. So what will happen?

The environmentalists will say that the highways will be bad for cows, pigs and crows and will also flood the city. The frequent flier socialists will say that these are all fancy things for the rich. The people who may have to lose land/homes (mostly illegal) will hold demonstrations and move courts. The incompetent police will do a lathi charge in front of TV camera crews looking for some action footage. The foreign funded NGOs will say this is human rights violation. Some important sounding organizations will bestow awards on the brave "activists" taking on the "might" of the government. Communists will say this is WorldBank -IMF conspiracy. Journalists will have a field day misquoting everyone to make news spicier and convulated. After ten years no one will remember what it was all about. The Government will now announce a new highway. And the cycle will repeat. That's how democracy functions in India.

Now tell me that happens in other democracies like Japan, Korea or Taiwan.

The only good thing is that despite the ignorance about India by many a journalist, things are getting built in India much to the amazement of common folks like us. It's not break neck speed, but it is quite a trot.

Venkat

September 13, 2006 01:16 AM

Yeah, Bruce, it's very easy for you to pass a comment such as this when you don't know what it's like to be a part of a 3rd world country like India. We have a cultural divide within us wherein if you travel a couple of hours the language changes. With each state representing its own kind of people, everyone has a different work ethic. You compare two cities like Chennai and Mumbai and you'll see a drastic comparison in just lifestyles, from a fast moving city to a laid back one. India is just too diverse in comparison to Chinese communisim. Taiwan and Japan also still manage to make it there because they function as a whole.

Robert Shapiro

September 13, 2006 01:40 AM

I have been to both countries, and there are just no comparisons. In India, beggars are everywhere and things are built haphazardly; there seems to be no city planning everywhere. In China, you could feel the prosperity, clean and orderly.
In Shanghai, home to over 5,000 spectacular skyscrapers, everyone seems to have a decent place to live. In Mumbai, half of the 18 million people are living in the nastiest slums, without running water and sewage system. Frankly, India has a long way to go before catching up to China.

cm

September 13, 2006 01:40 AM

I agree that the Indians are using excuses for the poor infrastructure. Democracy does not and should not stop any country from doing long term infrastructre planning and execution. The bottomline is that Indian bureacracy is an inefficient system that has no idea of infrastructre.

An example is cleanliness of cities. Until recently, the city of Chennai was very filthy. However, the city contracted with Singapore company to keep the city clean. The positive change is very noticeable now. What this points out is all that the Indians have to do is give out contracts to foreign companies to make, execute and operate major infrastructural projects.

RM

September 13, 2006 02:20 AM

Why make these comparisons at all? The 2 countries are just too different - different cultures, different history, different political systems, different economic models and so on. China started reforming its system nearly 20 years before India did. And Chinese reforms were well thought out plans unlike India which initiated reforms in response to a crisis in 1991.

There is no point in comparing the present day India with present day China. India is now where China was maybe 15-20 years back. If that time lag is considered, India's achievements are impressive. Much of India's growth has come from services so far. Indian manufacturing sector is just beginning to expand. Also remember that India's growth has come without much foreign investments.

India is far more efficient than China in resource utilisation, be it capital, natural or human. India has much more developed financial markets and independent regulatory systems. Indian companies are generally far more competitive and have much deeper managerial resources than the Chinese companies. They are much more innovative, unlike the Chinese who excel in copying western products and designs.

It is unfair to expect Indian cities to have the same facilities as in China, just after 15 years of opening up. And in these 15 years, infrastructure has been a focus area only for the last 5 years maybe.

If India can achive 8% growth with all these constraintts, it can defenitely do better in the longer term. India is not in any race with China. She needs to focus only on her on growth - a more equitable and balanced growth than the Chinese model - while ensuring the basic human dignity, liberty and freedom to all her people.

Sunitha

September 13, 2006 03:16 AM

Democracy is not the problem in India, it is lack of political will. Politicans like Kapil Sibal find democracy an easy excuse for their lack of will to develop the infrastructure. Let's not copy what the Chinese have done, China has done what best suits itself. We need development that takes care of all sections of the society. We need to build modern highways and buildings to suit the needs of our people. Obviously, a poor man whose house is bulldozed to build a highway is going to be bitter about the process, and he needs a forum which will protect his interest. If development means rendering millions homeless, so that a few hundreds have high flying life, we don't need it. What India needs is a political will to change with a human touch so that all sections of our society benefit from it.

indian

September 13, 2006 03:51 AM

i think it is the mindset rather than anything. Believe me, I'm an Indian so I know it! Indians are highly corrupt people. If you give 10 dollars to build anything in India expect only 10 cents to be actually used in construction! Such is the level of corruption. It's not democracy at all that's responsible. It's Indian people. And believe me if you go from one state to another you would feel you have come to a different country.

All in all I don't see in my lifetime progress in this country. For anything to happen the people of the country should be good.

Unfortunately for the country of India its people are not !.

Amlan

September 13, 2006 03:52 AM

India can't build things as fast as China because it doesn't need to. It's a miracle country which is progressing not because of but in spite of the government. The government doesn't provide power; industry comes up with its own generating stations. The government doesn't provide roads; industry builds software development or other industrial parks where they can manage roads and other infrastructure.

Don't ask for more. Can you imagine what would happen if India became as productive or as (infrastructure-wise) strong as China? Whatever few jobs you have left in the West would also vanish.

Now we don't want that do we? It would be like as it always was in the last few thousand years, barring a couple hundred recent ones: Europe with a begging bowl and plague and all the beautiful third world stuff:)

cr

September 13, 2006 04:01 AM

Change is about good leadership, commitment and involvement! The Chinese have shown it as have many others. Indians should have the courage to tell themselves and face up to the fact that things ought to be much better than they are.


BeijingMan

September 13, 2006 04:03 AM

Let's not overly praise China for its airports and buildings. Every foreigner who lives in China knows, that most Chinese business managers and f.ex. house managements for apartments are still living in past times. Buildings are easy to raise, but Chinese people are slow to change from past times patterns.

http://beijingman.blogspot.com

PC

September 13, 2006 06:11 AM

Let's accept the fact that China has developed faster than India. Now let the world accept another fact too: India has been growing by 8% solely on its own and this growth is for India as a whole, unlike China where there is lots of poverty and dirtiness. The Chinese media is not allowed to show anything negative whereas India is a democracy.
India's motto is the upliftment of people and not to do things just to be showcase to the world.
India has started on its growth path and results will be seen after same time which China, Korea and Japan took.

V Narayan

September 13, 2006 06:15 AM

Indian politicians give democracy a bad name. That's why Indian growth will be mostly market driven. Apart from Manmohan Singh, Congress is full of economically iliterate people obsessed with absurd left wing ideas. The BJP has more economic sense, witness Narendra Modi in Gujarat, but needs to be more inclusive.

outsourced hosting support

September 13, 2006 08:07 AM

I quite don't understand why Kapil Sibal is trying to make an argument on democracy and how it can be an obstacle for developemnt and growth. India has great infrastructure and resources that can even lead India to go more miles ahead of the Chinese way.

SHYAMAL BHATTACHARYA

September 13, 2006 08:15 AM

The truth is that successive Indian governments have run out of excuses. India cannot build things because of a massive, corrupt, and often criminal bureacracy called the Indian Administrative Service. Come up with any idea, plan or project, and the Indian bureaucrat (irrespective of whether she is an elegantly clad Joint Secretary with Oxbridge airs or he is an oafish clerk ) will have the same obstructive answer: It cannot be done because of Section 9999999999999999999 of some obscure piece of colonial legislation.

We all know it can be done if the right sleaze exchanges hands, usually through an inovative and talented army of middlemen who operate in the parking lots just outside the government offices.

It does not matter whether the government of the day is run by hysterical Hindu right wingers, fire breathing Communists, or brackish socialists. The nihilistic answer is always the
same. All political ideologies in India are in total agreement with the concept of inaction and some action only if the sleaze is right.

Things were no better under the British Raj. Action was only taken when the Viceroy's Executive Council overruled provincial bureaucrats, both British and Indian. Inept British civil servants were ostracisized at British Clubs; the Indians were simply flogged.

Members of India's Administrative Service, a direct descendant of Lord Curzon's Indian Civil Service, forget that in-built obstruction by a British run bureaucracy was the order of the day because Indians had to be kept subjugated and impoverished, particulary in economic matters. Lord Curzon's brown progeny, who today sit in their rabbit warren cubicles in Delhi's North & South Blocks genuinely believe that they have inherited the imperial mantle
of the Guardians( as a dyed in the wool imperial civil servant, Philip Mason, once described the army of directors, clerks, liveried office boys and other trappings of the Raj).

The solution is not that simple. Mao Zedong executed 5 million Chinese (landlords and other capitalist roaders!) before he was taken seriously. China's estimated 60 million inhabitants of its vast Gulag archipelago made Pudong what it is today, with their bare hands, and a bowl of rice with some soya sauce. A noisy and chaotic democracy cannot afford the luxury of mass executions or even a Gulag.(Even Pakistan would object!).

There is something, however, that the Indian government can do. It can privatize wherever possible. It can avoid retrenchments of civil servants by expanding its long neglected rural services base. A redundant civil servant put in charge of building a school in Mizoram or Kargil just has to build it. Life expectancy in these places is notoriously short for the inept.

Shyamal Bhattacharya
Singapore

Nawaz Zahed

September 13, 2006 09:00 AM

Bruce,

I think your comments are naive and also ignorant. First, countries which have seen rapid economic progress have primarily been homogeneous in nature. What this means is that China has fairly a homogeneous population as well as a totalitarian goverment. Rule of Law is swift and incisive. If the goverment wants pink roads, it can have it overnight, no matter what the citizens think of this bad color choice.

Now let's move to India. Imagine if Europe were one big country. Imagine if France and Italy were not neighbouring countries but neighbouring states within a country! Can you imagine the cultural problems they would have to just share a common power grid?
India is just that, it is almost a collection of smaller countries, each with its own distinct language and culture. We are a miracle since we all could have just gone into a civil war after the British left. In the USA you have maybe two languages which are widely spoken. In India we have 25 official languages and English is one of them! My point being that it's a miracle that we have reached this point and can launch our own geostationary satellites.

You have to probably live in India for a few months to understand the kind of challenges we have overcome to reach this point. Please refrain from making such ignorant statements before delving a little further.

Thank You,
Nawaz Zahed

om

September 13, 2006 09:30 AM

I am an Indian and I think the democracy excuse is a load of bull.
Forget China, 19 years after being bombed out with atomic weapons the Japanese built the bullet train and hosted an Olympics in 1964 (and they are a democracy).
We will be hosting a Commonwealth Games after 63 years of Independence.
Within India itself, the Delhi Metro Rail by R Sreedharan and others is a world class project done in about 75% of the time.
So either you want to do it or not. Democracy is just an alibi.

Maksymilian

September 13, 2006 09:50 AM

China's services economy is about 1.5X of India total GDP in absolute. Wait until India services beat that number first. Then you can brag.

sunny

September 13, 2006 10:09 AM

So much time wasted in useless unending discussions. Let's get back to work folks. Whether Chennai or Shanghai or Dubai, what matters is output not intellectual discussions.

Nanana

September 13, 2006 11:39 AM

Is India the only democracy that can't get roads built? Why bother comparing huge India with smaller Asian governments? Compare India to the USA or Canada and how much those countries got done in fifty years. Sure, they needed CHINESE to help build the railroads but they still get it done. Indian government and Indian civilians should stop playing the West against the East to use as a smokescreen for themselves. Too much yakking.

FinalSay

September 13, 2006 12:16 PM

I think it's more like culture tradition that decides everything, including Indians choosing democracy.

Indta is still a caste society with a rigid hierarchy structure, while China has eliminated that by force in the name of communist revolution. While China has abandoned the revolution idea but only kept the name, India still has the leftists running around to wage a non-violent class struggle, representing the hate of those low-caste toward those high.

Without the social change China went through, it's impossible for India to achieve the Chinese speed. You trade the peaceful transition with effiency, which is painful slow.

Andy

September 13, 2006 12:56 PM

India is a corrupted democracy. Not to mention the red tape and all regulations to protect a few rich Indians from foreign competition. It is a shame to use India as an example of democracy. That's why it can't even build a decent airport. Moreover, the caste system has prevented billion of desperately poor peasants from climbing the ladder. India cares more about its holy cow than its low caste peasants. Sweatshops in China are a hundred times better than the poverty in India. At least in China, the workers don't have to kill themselves to avoid debts.

RGN

September 13, 2006 01:20 PM

A peculiar combination of a lack of civil sense, an argumentative streak, a competitive attitude and other traits hold us Indians back.

Then there's our circumstances. As Nawaz says, imagine all of Europe as one country. Nowhere else do you see such diversity in language, religion and other cultural factors within a single nation, not to mention the degree of stratification along economic lines.

The very number of posts made to this blog should give you some idea of the Indian mindset.

The question of why India has not achieved on China's scale might well be valid, but it displays typical American naivete about the world, a lack of knowledge and understanding that sometimes can be quite dangerous (Iraq).

Venky Lalapet

September 13, 2006 01:25 PM

Dear All,

I see many shades of national pride painting an emotional response to a practical question. Bruce's question was merely a reflection - A reflection of the two countries in a specific the economic timeline.

A country's development or lack of it cannot be judged at a point with its neighbours or for that matter any other.

Having said that (and been to) India and China are two different entities with independent economic evolution. Period. What every one should be paying attention now is that these two juggernauts will increasing play a dominant role in pretty much every thing in the future years.

How they transform and shape up is more crucial than mere roads and bridges being built. I find it irrelevant as the roads and bridges will anyways be built in India. It is a democracy and ultimately the people will have their say. If the British were driven out with non violence for Independence, that was thanks to the will of its people. In a similar way, it is also the will of the people who will ensure their infrastructure will be built. They have no choice in the global market where countries are like pretty much products. You have to be good to even survive.

So all I can add is...lets see, wait and watch how things happen. It is simply when not if.

Venky Lalapet

blu bullet

September 13, 2006 02:42 PM

Mumbai is a disgrace, goverment-encouraged slums surround the airport. What they need is a big stick to keep everyone in line. They need to control the birthrate with a hardline one-couple, one-child system.

TaiwaneseAmerican

September 13, 2006 03:01 PM

Bruce,

By now you should have convinced yourself that any article comparing India and China is a hot topic. I am one of the readers who likes to read such kind articles of comparison, even when it extends to cover all BRIC countries. So many comments have been published and I have read most of them. Unfortunately, none of them pointed out the way current situation is--that China is strong in manufacturing while India is stronger in outsourcing and China is well ahead of India overall.

The major reason that China is well ahead in manufacturing/export industries has been rooted since Sony used American semiconductor patent to manufacture portable radioes. Since that time, Japan had been the sole electronics/manufacturing/export country until in the seventies when they started big investment in Taiwan and South Korea. Taiwan and South Korea benefited most from Japanese technology transfer in the seventies and eighties and fortunately both were able to absorb these technologies. Better things happened for them in late eighties when a lot of Taiwanese Americans/Korean Americans went back to Taiwan/Korea looking for opportunities when Silicon Valley in California didn't do well. All these create what Taiwan and Korea are now.

China opened its door just before India detected anything big could happen at that time. When China opened its door, it was excellent timing because Taiwan/Korea were looking for some places to dump their older machines and manufacturing tools such as textile, shoe and other light civil industries. China was the perfect place to do so. Had India been more open to investment from other countries, some of these machines would have gone to India and the outcome could have been much different than now.

The important concept is that, Japan, Taiwan and South Korea have been almost the sole group of places which can provide immediate technologies of medium level for transferring to countries with the minds of manufacturing/export. The manufacturing systems in Europe and United States are either too advanced for such countries to absorb or don't fit into such countries at all. China, being fortunate in the sense of not having had enough power to occupy Taiwan and Hong Kong, happened to have left these two prosperous places and they in turn give it biggest help ever in the road of recovery. Without the capital and manufacuring hardware from these two places, today's China would probably still be well behind India in everything. This also explains why China outpaces the other two BRIC countries--Russia and Brazil--in building the export industry, although in average Russia citizens have much higher education.

Both India and China have a long, long, long way to go. India, for example, has been proud of its outsourcing industry recently. But, think carefully, total revenue in outsourcing has not even reached US$20 billion, while a lot of single companies in Japan, Korea (even Hon Hai in Taiwan) have more revenue than this. I can't figure out how a big country with a billion plus people can be satisfied with such a small achievement?

Judging from the patents awarded by USPTO, both China and India are still in pre-kindergarten status. The newest data shows that, Taiwan, with merely 23 million people, was awarded more than 7,000 patents (South Korea is not much behind) in year 2004, while China and India both were awarded less than 700, not even reaching one tenth that awarded to Taiwanese. I don't know how RM from India can claim that India is more innovative and China is just a copycat?

Electronics/semiconductor technologies, originated in the U.S. and spread much faster in Far East countries than in other places. As investment firms from U.S., wouldn't it be good just to move to their backyard countries such as Mexico and other Central and South American countries, so that they don't need go around the globe? I think they did try, without success. The reason behind being that these backyard countries didn't take advantage of being closer to the U.S. and send more graduate students into the U.S. U.S. engineering/science graduate schools were and still are occupied by students from Asia. The result is that these backyard countries cannot absorb the technologies and upgrade their industrial ability while American firms are investing. That also resulted in high tech American firms having deeper ties to Asian companies.

The crucial point for China is that, before losing advantage of foreign investment, can they update themselves to a position Taiwan or South Korea had 20 years ago? For the time being, it looks like it can, although the biggest concern about China is its political future.

The sole reason China is ahead of India is that Inida doesn't have its own Taiwan/Hong Kong and is not close to Japan either.

Hemanth

September 13, 2006 03:08 PM

Please stop comparing India with China. Basically these two countries are different. India is having its own way of doing things, i.e. by taking the suggestions of all the people, unlike in China, where it's the order of the governament.

We don't want to replicate the mistakes of China, which is more becoming the country for urban rich. In India we have 70% of the population which lives in rural area. We just can't invest everything in the cities building new buildings or flyovers. Instead it is better being used for building new irrigation projects which bring smiles to the millions of poors who are in rural area.

Satya

September 13, 2006 04:24 PM

Well Mr. Sibal is correct when he blames DEMOCRACY for India's lack of progress. What he forgets to mention is that it is a DYSFUNCTIONAL DEMOCRACY. Most elections are rigged and 33% of MPs in the parliament have criminal records.

For India to replicate Japan, India needs to sort the democracy first.

Manali

September 13, 2006 10:40 PM

Bruce,

Why are all of your articles about the two countries so heavily China-biased that sometimes you miss what is so obvious to anyone who has a little background on the two countries?

India has other priorities than decorating its cities with glittering skyscrapers. India is behind China in issues of literacy, poverty, population control... It has to first give a better standard of living for the rural population than create luxuries for the urban and Westerners to awe. The growing economy has been widening the gap between the rich and the poor and if that is not balanced out it will result in utter chaos.

China brought economic reforms in 1979. Around that time they too had poor infrastructure and focused on economic growth. Their infrastructure projects started in the 90s. That too was a little early and Chinese researchers reveal that a staggering percentage of rural children cannot finish secondary education. Indian priorities seem right as it is making steady progress with increasing educational provisions for the rural areas.

Harish

September 13, 2006 11:48 PM

The minister is right. Democracy brings in a government which is the reflection of the people. However in the case of India, the bulk of the people are often very poor and badly educated. The policies are hence appropriately badly chosen and do not show consensus.

Thus it is indeed a problem of democracy. However, if the people of the country are educated, then the democratic system is much better. In the longer run a democracy is hence much more sustainable.

Jason

September 14, 2006 12:13 AM

Interesting that these comments are coming at a time when India is pursuing infrastructure projects at a breakneck pace--suggesting that the "ten years" you mention that Pudong was in construction is just beginning in India. Also, claims that India's "democracy" is holding it back don't seem to hold much water given the same context. India has now ushered in a free-for-all of capitalism for the allotment of special economic zones, governed by a process that seems less "democratic" than China's, with zones being doled out to robber barons in a non-transparent process.

Something certainly put India 10 years or so behind China, but it's far more likely that it was China's communist revolution than India's democracy that did the job. Whatever its faults, the benefits of land reform, housing for all, universal education, eradication of classism, equal rights for women, etc paid dividends when they finally decided to return to a market system.

Kullu

September 14, 2006 01:01 AM

Why India Lags China.

It's a combination of lack of leadership and ills of democracy type(universal adult franchisee) that India practices and its culture.

Any enterprise, let alone a nation, needs a "leader" who is not only able to draw support from all sections of the society but also has a vision and ability to lead/execute this vision. Today, India does not have a single leader who could be called a National Leader. Our Prime Minister, chief executive of the country, is not a popular leader elected by the people of the country. The popular support resides today in regional/caste leader such as Laloo, Karunanidhi, Mulayam, Mayawati. None of whom has any support outside there home state and therefore, their priorities are not linked to National interests alone. Even Sonia Gandhi, supposdly the only national leader, was unable to garner votes for her party in some of country's largest States - Uttar Pradesh and Bihar. In any case, she has chosen (like other popular and powerful leaders such as Bal Thakarey, Sharad Power) to sit back and not take the responsibility of running the country in her hands.

How did China manage this - China certainly had leaders who had vision and they did not have to worry about popular support.

Second problem - Democracy type. India follows a Parliamentary form of democracy where People elects their representatives and representatives in turn elect the Prime Minister (chief executive) of the Nation. As against this, United States follows a Presidential form of democracy where people elect the chief executive of the country directly. This would make a big difference for India, given its highly diverse characteristics and federal structure.

How did China manage this - China has a unified command that leads decision making to the chief executive of the country and does not have a federal structure a la India or US.

The third issue is Indian culture which preaches "one has to do one's duty without worrying about the fruits of one's efforts," the exact opposite of what the western world preaches (result orientation and end justifies the means). Each has its own advantages and disadvantages and today many western thinkers are promoting Indian way. I am no one to judge which one is better but it certainly makes a difference when it comes only to economic growth.

Look at my blog for more

http://www.askullu.blogspot.com/

Andy

September 14, 2006 01:44 AM

Funny, some people have said that China's development only benefits the elite while India's development concerns more for the poor.
Do they even live in this era? India development has come mainly from outsourcing. Only the educated/middle class in India work in this field. They are the only ones who enjoy the wealth. In China, the manufacturing sectors that use a lot of labor dominate the development. The main reason part of Chinese economy isn't as efficient as India is because the government is concerned more about the unemployment rate.
In India, the economy is so efficient that the only way for the peasants who lost their harvest due to bad weather is to kill themselves. They can't find other jobs because India won't open factory unless it is profitable to the rich. In twenty years, China has lifted hundreds of millions of poor people from poverty. There is still a long way to go, but at least China is way ahead India in eradicating poverty. If you compare Bangalore with the rest of India, you will find that the gap of prosperity is so huge. Bangalore itself is not even close to a first world metropolis city.
Like I said before, in the future, China might need to import cheap labor from India - unless robotic technology improves so much. At that time, India may have problem to feed its billion uneducated workers. Hopefully it is not going to happen soon.

ash

September 14, 2006 11:52 AM

Come on People!! Give credit to India for what they have achieved in 55 years, while carrying the burden of 1.5 billion people on her shoulders. Yes, China is way far head of India and the Indians are well aware of that fact. It does not need a white American male to remind them of where India stands against China.

Some people here talk about the caste system . FYI Indian abolished the caste system in 1947, almost 20 years before America abolished racial discrimination. Now tell me India is not progressing?

outofin

September 14, 2006 11:33 PM

Interesting so many people have mentioned that India started off a decade later than China, implying we'd see today's China 10 years later in India. We could, but that future is not guranteed. Actually I'm in much doubt. Through my memory and from what my parents told me about the past, China has never had the chaotic scenes of Indian cities. It's not a matter of rich or poor. It's simply a matter of order.

ting-shuo.com

Manali

September 16, 2006 12:24 PM

This post is specially in response to ANDY

ANDY, it seems like you are the one who doesn't live in this era if you think India's economy is growing merely due to outsourcing.

India has world class companies not only in software but auto, steel, pharmaceuticals and biotech which can compete with the best in the West today. If you have only heard of Infosys read about Tata Motors, Bajaj Auto, Mahindra, Tata Steel, Ranbaxy Pharma, Cipla, Dr. Reddy's Labs....to name a few. On the other hand, most of the manufacturing facilities in China are results of foriegn investments, not of indigenous Chinese companies.

And regarding comments about how China is concerned about equality, making efforts to drag up the poor, and India favouring only the rich,

Here's a reality check:

First, contents from last year's research done on rural China :

"Inequality in China is much more acute than in India. A recent study by the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences (CAAS) says it is actually the worst on the planet, barring the odd sub-Saharan African country. China's 'peasant question' is an economic, social and political crisis of gargantuan proportions. Scholars at CAAS estimate that since the start of Deng's reforms, 270 million Chinese have escaped poverty. That's not enough in a nation of 1.3 billion people. The crucial question is how "one system, two countries", where 400 million people advance while 900 million are left behind, can possibly co-exist. One billion peasants - 80% of the total population - can never be fully assimilated, no matter the rhythm of the economic miracle."

In an interview last year to Radio Free Asia, Chen emphasized that as Chinese peasants are 40% of all the peasants in the world, this is not only a Chinese but a world problem.

"We observed unimaginable poverty and unthinkable evil, we saw unimaginable suffering and unthinkable helplessness, unimagined resistance with incomprehensible silence, and have been moved beyond imagination by unbelievable tragedy ...

"Farmers worked all year long to earn an average annual income of 700 yuan. Many farmers lived in mud-clay houses that were dark, damp, small and shabby. Some even had tree bark roofs because they couldn't afford tiles. Because of poverty, once someone fell ill, he either endured it if it was minor disease, or else just waited to die. There were 620 households in the whole village, of whom 514, or 82.9%, were below the poverty line. Even though the village was very poor, the leaders were prone to boasting and exaggeration about their performance, and as a result the government struck it off the list of impoverished villages. So the villagers were burdened with exorbitant taxes and levies."
"

NEXT, read the latest article on CNN dated MAY 06
'Asia's peasant problem', here is an excerpt from that:
"The conflict can be tough to spot in China. On my latest trip I walked quickly through Shanghai's sweeping new airport and got into the hotel Audi, which carried me along an eight-lane highway to the district of gleaming skyscrapers and new four-star restaurants. What you don't see, unless you go looking for it, is rural China - 800 million people, many of whom struggle to feed themselves.

"Battling for subsistence is something they can deal with. What they can't stand is when China's economic expansion makes them worse off. The increasingly common pattern is that entrepreneurs pay the government to use large tracts of farmland for factories, shopping malls, and such.

"Most of the money is supposed to go to the farmers who work the land (but cannot own it under Chinese law). Instead, local officials often pocket the cash, leaving the farmers with no money and no land.

"Farmers' fury began boiling over last year and has continued into this spring, with thousands of protests nationwide, some of which resulted in protesters being killed by police. Chinese authorities have tried to quash news reports of the uprisings but clearly take them seriously.

"Prime Minister Wen Jiabao said in the government media, 'We absolutely can't commit a historic error over land problems.' The term 'historic error' is significant in Chinese politics, referring to the most serious mistakes.
"

India is a democracy. All problems are clearly visible. One can't just suppress any issues. The Chinese government can do that and paint a pretty picture when things may not be the same.

So the only difference is China has been successful in cleaning up its urban area so you don't catch a glimpse of poverty unless you actually travel to the rural countryside (which investors and business people will hardly do). India's situation is not the same where you see the rich and poor side by side. But the fact remains that both countries face an equally great challenge related to the economic divide.
-Manali

Vikas CHangla

September 17, 2006 03:38 AM

I'm an Indian and I know exactly how it is in different cities. With a minority of people (around 0.001%) who share the wealth and all the outsourcing projects, it is rare for India to gain the same prosperity as China. There needs to be a total infrastructure re-evaluation

Iqbal

September 17, 2006 02:57 PM

Bruce,

The answer is quite straightforward!

Simply stated, India, the world's largest democracy, exposes the weakness of democracy (which is not regretted at all keep reading). And China displays the strength of dictatorship.

India's democracy cannot possibly match the cold efficiency of China's one-party system in the short term. India's leaders (like any other democracy's )are constantly in debate over very important issues (taxation, privatization, foreign relations) where Chinese leaders
simply tell the country what to do and when to do it.

China can relocate people when it wants and where it wants; it owns land and its common knowledge that it forces people to relocate when it needs the land to build hitech projects. Relocation is often to a far remote area with inadequate compensation. And when people protest they are beat up and even jailed.

Read April 06 SkyNews special investigation report with footage of people being kicked out of
their lands.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13518694,00.html

Read the March 06 article on Christian Monitor:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0309/p01s03-woap.html

Here's another: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/14/AR2005061401542.html

This is human tragedy and am glad India cannot follow this path. Read about the Narmada dam project in India that has been in the air for 20 years now due to protests and court cases filed by environmentalists and socialists.

On other note, India also has other pressing issues such as terrorism to handle. It spends millions of dollars for maintaining troops along Pakistan border and at high altitudes. (Remember Kargil war six years back when Pak troops infiltrated Kashmir) Beijing has no such trouble atleast not of this magnitude.

Nevertheless India does realise the importance of infrastructure for foreign investments and has stepped up its actions although they wont and shouldnt be the most important thing on the country's agenda.

Bottom line is India is progressing at a good speed and eventually will catchup and move past
China. BUT it will do this the right way, thanks to democracy, even if it takes longer.

As far as China is concerned, it has its own big challenges to handle. After all a politically unstable China is something no one wants; its bad for India, the US, the world.

Andy

September 18, 2006 01:23 PM

I'm glad that the Chinese government acknowledged and sent the Academy of Social Sciences to study the inequality gap. That is a big step. Now compare that to the Indians who live in a dream. The only reason inequality is not yet a big issue in India is because the wealthy and middle class are few only. Heck, most of them are either living in London or New York with their money. So basically only the poor live in India, thus no inequality.

The only reason Indian companies can be famous and dominant in their own backyard is because of protectionism. The only exception is the service sectors which is booming. But then again, only a small portion of the population enjoys it.

Democracy is a good thing, yet a corrupted democracy is worse than an authoratian state. What is the point of freedom of speech if nobody listens? Is that why the peasants in India choose to kill themselves? Make no mistake, social unrest is not only happenning in China; India and other third-world democracies have their shares too. It is also common in the U.S., with a big portion of poor blacks. It is something that we need to live with as long as we live in society.

Abhijit Vaidya

September 19, 2006 05:48 AM

I don't think Kapil Sibal is wrong in the excuse that he puts forth. What he implicitly tries to say is that for years and years now, Indian politicians, under the guise of democratic liberty, have tripped any of their willing opponents in their quest for development. So none of these thick-skinned, immoral, greedy "representatives of the people" see any benefit in national development. They are busy distributing free television sets to the commoners, when these same people do not have enough to eat.
But then such is the democracy of my dear motherland India.

anohka

September 21, 2006 02:12 PM

1) The Indian growth rate is 8.3% and inflation is 5%. So the real growth rate is actully 3.3%. China's real growth rate has averaged more than 6% for 15 years.

2) The twenty year advantage.

China in the early nineties was just taking off. Compare India in 2020 with China today.

3)Overseas Chinese.

The Chinese of HK & Taiwan were overwelmingly the biggest investors in Red China for 20 years. No language problems or cultural collisions. And mainland Chinese buisnessmen could go look & see how it was done. India doesn't have a modern India to copy.

4)Cultural isolation

Still, after all this time, Indians want to feel 'different' from the rest of the world. 'We're the only Hindu nation' etc...

5)Overpopulation. China has 3-4 times the surface area.

To sum up. It WILL happen though not at the Chinese rate. I'd say that India will be like China now by 2030.

asr

September 24, 2006 10:02 AM

The greatest thing about India is that it is the only country where poor people are heard and have a voice. When a government is going to grab a land for an ambitious project and is going to grab a small piece of land of a poor person, that is illegal. That poor person can stand against the might of the government and corporations. This would not be possible in China since poor people's voices are surpressed by the Communist rulers and they can't go to the media since the state controls the media.

India will grow slowly but steadily. When growth happens everyone in India (including the rural poor) will benefit.

India's cultural difference is not a disadvantage but an advantage. Western countries and China are not used to cultural differences however in India just about everyone is used to cultural differences and have learned to respect other cultures. However people in China are not used to it and it is important when you want to build a MNC.

Politicians will keep talking about it however the country will grow. It's no longer anybody's choice but the people of the country want to have a good life style for them and for their children. They will continue to push every other government and governments will have no other choice to listen to them.

Vineet

September 26, 2006 02:17 AM

See fellows you don't understand the dynamics involved in managing a democracy that is of the scale and size of India...not to forget the diversity we have to contend with... In the last ten years there has been a conspicuous change in India's functioning. Why? Because our democracy is finally coming of age. There is a need for a strong middle class if you have a democratic system. India is now reaching a stage where we have the numbers on our side. We are already on the verge of pipping the likes of UK and France in GDP terms, something inconceivable ten years back. The next few decades is going to be even more dramatic. So India's growth is best explained by the marathon analogy: slow to start, gather pace slowly and finally sprint to the finishing line. Look at the number of western leaders queing up in Delhi for a slice of the action. Guys, things have changed enormously since the 90s. Reliance India (with other strategic investors) has already started executing plans to create two of the world's swankiest cities ever in India pending completion by 2015. Many more corporates and succcesful Indian individuals are doing the same. The latest to jump on the bandwagon is Hotmail.com creator Sameer Bhatia who is heading a plan to create an Asian Silicon Valley in Harayana, North India. The party has just begun!!

Vineet

September 27, 2006 01:53 AM

India has more second tier cities than China, though our Mumbai is behind the likes of Shanghai. We have a far more equitable distribution of cities in India. China's development is limited only to the coastal regions - go there and see it to believe it. Nothing comes out on the media and thus is not available for the world to see. When the veils are lifted from the shrouded secrecies this bubble will burst. I just hope and pray it isn't as dramatic as the erstwile USSR because it will have a negative effect on the Global Economy.

Anurag Gupta

September 28, 2006 02:27 AM

Hello all,

I have yet not seen China but after visiting Europe, I understand why people migrate from India. After second world war, Europe was completely destroyed and yet they could rebuild like they have done. We blame that the problem is in our culture, our religion, our mentality. The real problem is that we never had a leader/party after independence who took the lead. A leader can change the way his people think and act. India's core problem is its population. There is just no reduction in the number of people living in poverty even after whatever claims we make about our economy. If we cannot control our population growth, nothing is going to happen. Let the population burst be accepted as the National Crisis (war like situation) which will eat up our resources, funds and whatever development we are doing. Let there be a policy, that you are allowed to have only 2 children and who are not able to follow will have to send the 3rd one and thereafter to Defence. Government takes full responsiblity to provide free primary education, food and healthcare to all the children of India till the age of 14. Mumbai can be made a Sanghai, only if we are able to find a solution to the lacs of people living in slums and the rise in cities population. Let us adopt horizontal growth for the Mumbai and not only vertical growth. Let us develop new cities where we can disburse the population burst going in Mumbai. Let us give employment and shelter alternatives to people living in the slums so that they will also want to move out. I dont think there is any problem in India which cannot be solved. The problem is that there is no willpower. I just wish a day will come when one person will come out from a population of 1 billion who will have a vision to make this county what it deserves.

Good Bye

Andy

September 28, 2006 07:52 PM

Dear Vineet,

India has Mumbai and the rest are second tier cities. And you call that equality. Do you see the irony here? The focus of the development in India is in Mumbai. In China, even a far remote city in the west such as Chengdu is very advanced. Needless to say, China still has many underdeveloped cities, but China is on the way to address this problem. What about India? They are still figuring out how to solve the trafic jams in Mumbai because they don't know how to persuade the baba to move their cows from the roads. Well, that is democracy for you. I'm glad that the regime in Beijing can focus on more important things than the holy cows.

anotherAsiandude

September 30, 2006 02:13 PM

I love this topic. Just read this comment again from one of the bloggers in an Indian accent: "Believe me, I'm an Indian so I know it! Indians are highly corrupt people."

Vineet

October 1, 2006 05:29 AM

See I think Mr.Gupta has got his facts completely misplaced. There is no reduction in the poverty levels of India? I beg your pardon. The number of people that have come above the poverty line in the course of the last decade is in excess of 300 million, comparable to the populations of Europe and America. We will be poverty ridden in 20 years time at the rate we are going. Every year millions of Indians join and become part of the burgeoning middle class. That's why MNCs are flocking because they see a rapidly growing market for their goods. Why are the number of Chinese asylum seekers the highest in the world? When it comes to Indians most of the migration is legal. They are not persecuted in the country. Today India is experiencing a hitherto unknown phenomenon, the "reverse brain drain." Why? Because the opportunities for growth India offers is amazingly high. The next step in Globalization is free access to labour markets. I can think of no other country other than India which can exploit this lucrative opportunity because our people are going to run the show in most of the aging developed economies. All is not well with India but the metamorphosis India had undergone in the last ten years - in spite of incompetent leadership - is truly remarkable.

Jared

October 2, 2006 11:13 AM

Why talk about China and India? India is far behind China in all areas. This is a stupid topic. Chinese only look at the U.S. because the U.S. is the only target to catch.

Manish

October 3, 2006 06:28 PM

Very insightful responses, Manali. And yes, she is right. Another verification of what she was saying is the Inequality Index, where China scores a lot more poorly than India (i.e. income distribution in China is much more than in India). Other factors being (having been to China), doesn't it strike all of you who praise China's gleaming Shanghai/Beijing/Guangzhou that China's per capita income is still only double that of India, that China is still a 3rd world country AND HENCE China too should have an ample share of poor people (it's the most populous country in the world, after all)? So where are all these poor people? The beggars? They should be somewhere, right? A point to ponder over.

Then again, China's Shanghai airport's 23 out of the 25 terminals are unutilized. And this is not just a one-off incident, there are scores of them. Where does all this money come from?

I agree, what China has done is breath-taking (literally!), but what matters is, is it sustainable??? I am mighty afraid, both for China's and the world economy's sake that another East Asia or, more to the point, another Japan, does not happen.

And all these doubts about the Chinese economic miracle come from just one point: Never in the history of the world has any country which has relied on govt dictating the path of growth succeeded. Govt's by their very nature don't look at profits. Can we be sure that they are making the right decisions, even tho' it might look fabulous?

Vineet

October 4, 2006 02:34 AM

Putting it in a nutshell, China is all about a few Shanghais. How long can they hide their unfed millions? One day people will rebel. There are 900 million waiting in the wings whose anger will burst and manifest in some way or the other. Repression can't last too long. In India, we don't hide our problems. Democracy has united us.

rockstar

October 4, 2006 02:49 AM

The majority of Indians don't share a world vision or a global outlook. They are narrow-minded and self-centred & don't think above petty self benefits and their own family welfare. The result is a underdeveloped, unplanned, chaotic place which has become a topic of ridicule for westerners who can't find a difference between a progressive Indian and backward and frail one.

I think unless millions of young, energetic Indians with a global outlook take over reigns of administration, politics and power in India, nothing can be done and we will keep on getting excuses about poverty and poor infrastructure in India despite attaining 10% GDP growth and an economic boom!!

Buck

October 4, 2006 11:41 PM

Why China can and India can't? It is like asking why is the U.S. the U.S. and Mexico is Mexico! The answer is as simple as this: It is the people who make the difference.

I have no doubt that Indians will never catch China, not even close. No Way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Vikram

October 5, 2006 01:56 AM

Hey first of all guys we arn't exactly sure if there will be a China once communism collapses in the mainland. Do you know what? I am pretty sure there are a lot of Chinese Internet policemen who are so active in international blogs like these to give a positive spin to everything that happens in China. I know where many of these China sympathisers are coming from. Thank God we in India don't need people like these because we are empowered and can freely discuss our problems. China can never be better than India unless it gives its people the basic of all basic rights, which is to choose the number of children one can have. What's the point of living like slaves in one's own country? If you want to control population do it by peaceful persuasion and not by preposterous inhumane repression. Who would want to stay in a country like this?

Andrew

October 5, 2006 08:23 AM

Both China and India are continent-size countries. It is very difficult to generalize. Nevertheless, the numbers speak for themselves. They overwhelmingly favor China. If you distrust the numbers because some are from a communist country, let's try our feelings. Coastal China looks like Southern Europe (only more shiny) while inland China lags behind by 10-20 years. But even there you can feel the buzz. The inequality thus may serve China well in the sense that the growth story will last longer. India lags behind not only in physical infrastructure but also mentality. That is self-denial. Twenty years ago, China had the same problem. The Chinese just could not accept that they are falling behind their East Asian neighbors. Fortunately for China, today's Chinese are fully aware of their strength as well as weakness. My Indian friends please open your eyes as well as your mind. You will see that the world is not just dictatorship vs. democracy. There are many failed democracies just as there are many enlightened authoritarian societies. But given a choice of India and China, I would rather live in today's authoritarian China than a democratic India. If people could vote by their feet, I am sure that most of them would do the same.

Andy

October 5, 2006 01:41 PM

China's authoritarian regime is not perfect, but at least it is working. India's open democracy has so far failed to lift its billion peasants from poverty. India doesn't ban its peasants to migrate to city. But in the city, they end up as beggars and prostitutes. What's the point? There is something called planning. I don't think the Indians understand that. They're living in the illusion of democracy. China netizens are not be able to voice all their thoughts on the Internet, but the same thing goes for the billion beggars in India who don't even have access to basic nessecities. Using the poor people to gain votes and leaving them in poverty is a very undemocratic things to do.

Gourav

October 6, 2006 12:38 PM

Geez - what a lot of emotion.... :)

Anyone can grow at a break-neck speed...if you're willing to break your neck.

Vikram

October 7, 2006 05:04 AM

Look Andy China is a flash in the pan. They will fall just as quickly they rose. Why? Because everything happening there is a farce. They claim communism and do everything that doesn't stand for communism. The forced mass migration (the biggest in the history of mankind) they have caused will not come cheaply. You think the people won't revolt? They will. Their tears have to be accounted for. There aren't Chinese citizens of Indian origin and there never will be, but there are Indian citizens of Chinese origin. We embrace diversity. There have suppressed religions like hell. Do you think this nonsense can go on for too long? One day all anger will manifest collectively in one form or the other.

The fundamentals of China are, I repeat, a big farce of dragonical proportions. We are a true democracy not claiming to be one and acting totally differently.

Vikram

October 7, 2006 05:09 AM

Our democracy has ensured success to millions of peasants unlike that of China's where only the city dwellers are accounted for. Do you think the Chinese are not corrupt? God forbid. Nothing comes out on the media so you have them believing so. Open your eyes. Don't buy the crap which Chinese state agencies are proclaiming at face value. They only lie and publish only things they deem is right.

mys21

October 7, 2006 03:25 PM

Majority commenters against China above will change your view after tomorrow, Oct.08 with the commencing of a landmark conference. PLS pay attention to title and break news on newspaper and CNN, BBC in coming week.

rockstar

October 8, 2006 05:24 AM

So much arrogance for the country where 75% people are poor and struggling to make there ends meet. From starvation and begging to $2 a day sweatshop wage and slave worker status.
What you call these Chinese people who are mutiliating the truth in their favour, by branding India as the worst country on the planet and a country of underachivers, beggars etc. Keep it up-you don't want to see poverty and corruption in your own backyard. What you are boasting about are a few skyscrapers and highways in Shanghai and Beijing. No one in the world will ever get inspiration from either Chinese dictatorship/brutality, corruption or cheap labour economy.

India's plus points score much above the Chinese model, since personal freedom does matter and working conditions are very important - few people wants to work in sweatshops with poor wages.

Developing its own market, innovation and knowledge-based economy is equally important as selling cheap consumer goods to US. It's due to Indians shear hardwork and endurance that they are the top outsourcing destination in the world for IT & BPO with 44% market share and self sufficient in agriculture, manufacturing and booming service sector.

In China the simple rule is you can't get away with poverty but you can get away with the poor - so dump all poor people where nobody will notice them in countryside, so you can present a rosy picture to foreign journalists.

Now it is obvious, even to the communists, that the parts of the Indian economy that are humming, such as drugs, auto parts and IT, are the ones that are most open and that this is no coincidence.

In 2003, a survey by the Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry found that 40 percent of companies were "positive" on India as an investment destination; last year, that figure rose to 73 percent.

China's hardware - in the form of bridges, roads, ports and the like - is incomparably better than India's.

But in important ways, India's economic software is superior. India's banks report about 10 percent non-performing loans; China admits to 20 percent and the true figure could be double that.

India's capital markets work the way they should; China's are a rigged casino. India has more engineers and scientists; its domestic entrepreneurs have made a bigger mark.

And while no one in his right mind wants to go near the creaky, backlogged Indian civil courts, India is a country that does try to govern by the rule of law. China, ultimately, is a country that will break the rule of law whenever the party feels like it or deems its power to be threatened even if that "threat" is a few thousand poor peasants and their lawyer.

It is also worth noting that China's one-child policy means that it will face the costs of a rapidly aging population much sooner than India.

Since 1992, when Deng Xiaoping decided to gun for growth, China's economy has been running flat out. Over the same period, India's has accelerated from a crawl to a brisk jog; in a good year, it can deliver 8 percent growth. But with the example of positive change behind it, plus a reasonable monsoon, it is not hard to imagine India growing at China-like speed.

It is at that point that its institutional strengths (a much richer civil society and a government that can be held accountable) give it a decided advantage.

At some point, a market economy requires a reasonably open and flexible political order. In China, that implies the end of the Communist Party's monopoly of power, or at least the chance to challenge it without being imprisoned. China's rulers are nowhere near countenancing that.

For all the advances in personal freedom in China over the past 15 years - and these have been enormous - the Communist Party's clenched grip on power has not relaxed. It's a whole lot less traumatic for a democratic country to open its economy, as India is doing, than for a dictatorship to open its politics, as China is not doing.

Today on the 8th of Oct 2006 Prime Minister Singh has announced investment of US$320 billion to build country infrastructure in next 5 years. All we need is efficient, sincere and honest efforts from the govt and common man to make India Shine.

Santhanakrishnan

October 9, 2006 05:26 AM

Dear Bruce,
India has a major plus point in being a more acceptable country than China.Remember Tiananmen Square?
That will not happen in India.
It is the largest democracy in the world. It has a large population which is free and can scream if any injustice is done albeit through a friendly and helpful media.
Coming to achievements, India is not shy to bring in foreign capital and know-how thanks to a dymamic thinking and brilliant Central Ministerial Team which controls the investment environment and can work wonders in a short time. The next 5 years will see a tremendous growth in infrastructure linking big cities by road, rail and air. Logistics Management has taken off very fast and FedEx and FedEx-like efficient companies move materials and finished goods fast. Manufacturing - at present 40% new and 60% old technology based-is fast becoming users of most modern technology and machine tools. We have visionaries like Tatas, Hindujas, Kalyanis, Munjals, TVS group, group who are busy transforming India into a global auto manufacturing Hub. The IITs and IIMs are already delivering brilliant technology, enginering and management and agricultural graduates to oversee our progress. China has been (probably still is) buying its large crankshafts from India for a decade now. I need not talk about IT. The whole world knows about it.
We have the THE BIGGEST ASSET WHICH IS OUR FREEDOM TO THINK and ACT. With a better Government in some of the States we can be a GREAT FORCE to reckon with in Industry and Commerce before another 5-7 years.
China will continue to produce using cheap labour
but as they are not after sales-service conscious (as India was a couple of decades ago) their market
will be limited to a few under developed countries in Africa and Middle Eastern and Far Eastern countries where political stability (and hence growth) is a question.
Santhanakrishnan

johnwood

October 10, 2006 03:45 AM

Common man, another topic on “India vs China”! As a Chinese, let me tell you how I feel. I feel annoyed and think it is very annoying and arrogant for Americans to constantly compare India to China, like Americans stand way above every other country. Wait a minute. US GDP is $13 trillion and China’s GDP is only $2.4 trillion. In other words, China’s GDP is less than 20% of U.S. That may be the root of their mentality to comment on anyone.

However, it is even more irritating for Indians to jump out from everywhere to claim their superiority over China in innovation, creativity or technologies. This is totally undeserved arrogance. Where does India’s GDP stand? India’s GDP is less than $0.8 trillion or 1/3 of China’s GDP. What does this mean? Let’s do some simple math. Let’s assume the U.S.’s GDP stays stagnant with development and China can maintain a net growth rate of 7% (BTW inflation adjusted growth rate is very good), using an accruing formula (1+0.07)^n, it will take China another 25 years to reach US today’s level. It will take much longer for China to reach US’s per capita GDP. How about India using the same criteria? It will take 15 years for India to reach China’s current level.

That is why we Chinese stay low key and stay focused. We know we have a long, long way to go. We are really flattering ourselves and should be a bit embarrassed if we claim to be world-leading. With India’s current state, my advice to all Indians who claim their superiorities here is: Do something before you talk. Otherwise, you just make a fool of yourself.

mys21

October 11, 2006 03:16 PM

We, Chinese and Indian, shouldn't step in a trap set by a third country. We should work together and help each other for a harmonious Asia and peaceful world.

Andy

October 12, 2006 02:37 AM

All those predictions of the coming collapse of China are baseless so far. In China, inflation is low while GDP keeps growing. There are no symptoms of overheating. Politically, China has demonstrations, but the government is still able to handle them. Which country doesn't have demonstrations?

India's democracy is a joke. Barely half its citizens are literate. How can you participate in a democracy when you can't even read a newspaper or write your opinion? India's peasants are no better than China's. Thousands of peasants kill themselves each year in India. More importantly, India is on the brink of civil war. Hindus and Muslims are fighting, the Maoists are surging, Kashmir is burning and the separatist movements are rising. India can't solve this problem because government officials are too busy fighting for power and wealth. The Chinese government is corrupt, but India's is even worse.

mys21

October 12, 2006 07:39 AM

Got some astonishing and disappointing news yesterday that ZTE (one of China's telecom companies) was unfairly disqualified by Bharat Sanchar Nigam Ltd (BSNL). Motorola encountered the same since it also produce some of its equipment in China. Sounds really ridiculous. Some other countries misadvise Indian security authorities. India will pay extra and will regret this for sure.

zyl

October 13, 2006 07:36 PM

Give me a break! China always walks its own walk. India or what, who cares?

Last few years of change in China just happened astonishingly and promisingly. We are proud of it but still like to talk about the plethora of problems and difficulties in this ever-grieving-now-reviving society. Any empire has its up and down, and China is no exception. We, the Great Chinese (in the mainland, Hongkong, Macao, and Taiwan) are always unanimously striving to restore glory of our ancestor. The next two decades of reform will be more challenging; we prefer technology renovation to sweatshop, harmonious society to tattered warfare system.

Any argument between India and China is irritating and fruitless, with nothing worth comparing, totally not the same class.

cn

October 14, 2006 03:56 AM

I am Chinese myself and I usually don't like to participate in the India vs China hype except to discourage it. But there are some misconceptions about the history of the East Asian countries that I need to point out. The statement that Japan, Korea and Taiwan are all democracies and they were able to build their infrastructures, I must say that it is not quite accurate. Japan has been under one-party rule for five decades despite regular elections. Both Korea and Taiwan didn't become democratic until the '90s, well after their economies had industrialized and infrastuctures built (back in the 70s and 80s).

Mukundan

October 14, 2006 10:25 AM

Folks,
India has not acheived anything yet in the modern era. That's true. Let's stop this nonsensical comparison between India and China.
Each country has its own strengths and weaknesses. But the people from both countries are realising that cooperation between us would do both of good. Case in point is the growth in bilateral trade from few millions of $ to $10 billion in a decade. The two governments are taking steps to promote commerce. I think China and India have a lot of give each other. There is no point in getting ahead of ourselves with outrageous claims based on stereoptypes. In 25 years India and China will certainly be among the top 3 countries on this planet. They will make Asia the beacon of the world and rightfully so as the majority of the people live in Asia

Mojo

October 14, 2006 01:23 PM

As little as five years ago, no one would have bothered to seriously compare India and China. The fact that they are being compared at all shows three things: 1) India is finally progressing economically at a decent clip, 2) people like to compare apples with oranges even if doesn't make much sense, and, 3) people can't resist extrapolating past trends into the future.

Given that India and China have their own distinct histories, cultures, and geographies, it is no mystery that the two nations develop in different ways and at different rates. As of now, China is convincingly ahead of India by just about any socio-economic measure. China has had the good fortune of having access to an enormous pile of capital and managerial talent of the non-mainland Chinese --not to mention the superbly receptive culture along the eastern seaboard and the visionary leadership of Deng. India doesn't have its own Taiwan or Hong Kong to give it a similar boost. Having said that, India too has its share of endowments. The entrepreneurial spirit in India is very impressive. A particularly heartening recent development is the deep sense of outrage among Indians across all classes towards their governments’ failures. Could India match China's economy in the near future? Probably not. Could India match China's economy at some point in the future? Sure. But I really don't care who is ahead as long as both countries manage to provide a decent standard of living to their peoples. This "who is ahead?" comparison is silly and infantile.

The discourse on this thread has been a fascinating read.
Vikram says:
“China is a flash in the pan. They will fall just as quickly they rose. Why? Because everything happening there is a farce.”
Give me a break. More than 300 million folks are lifted out of poverty in a couple of decades and you call that a farce?!

Buck says:
“I have no doubt that Indians will never catch China, not even close. No Way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
Can’t decide whether that’s just smugness, or plain vanilla racism, or both.

johnwood, the Homo Economicus, seems to conclude based on GNP figures alone, that the US is more than five times better than China which in turn is three times better than India. Presumably, until these relative positions change, China doesn’t have anything to teach the US and, of course, India doesn’t have anything to teach anyone.

mys21 says:
“We, Chinese and Indian, shouldn't step in a trap set by a third country. We should work together and help each other for a harmonious Asia and peaceful world.”
Right on, brother!! Along those lines, I, as an Indian, am also disappointed that some Chinese companies are being shutout from bidding in India. Just like the paranoids in China’s military/security circles, there are paranoids in the Indian military/security circles who still fear and loathe the Chinese because of the 1962 war. It is time to move on.

nan

October 15, 2006 05:02 AM

1) The gap between China and India will be wider, especially when taking into account the effect of gradual but persistent renminbi revaluation.

2) Cultural differences are the root reason of such a huge gap. Don't forget the fact that almost all Confucian economies enjoyed extraordinary achievement over the past century. It's a phenomenon.

3) It's silly to portray China's dictatorship, inequality, or lack of innovation. Guys, if you live in China for more than a year, you'll understand what I mean...

Rajendra

October 18, 2006 04:34 PM

India and china have lot of relationship,right from the time of buddha.we both can learn from each other.I am very sure that India and china will be amzing countries.As an Indian,My country wil be great and is great bcoz of vedas and its benevolent people,it is through this strength that our country will really progress.

Shaukat

October 19, 2006 11:07 AM

Mojo Dear.. yes people have been lifted out of poverty in China..but the number and facts which the Chinese Comm Machinery gives out are an undeniable farce. Morover China has a policy of using tanks and guns over hapless poor people. Naturally the poverty levels will decrease if the poor are eliminated.

mys21

October 21, 2006 09:39 AM

To:Shaukat
Don't be sciolistic. Nobody like mischief-maker.

Coby

October 23, 2006 05:12 PM

For people who still don't understand why India is a failure, please read this article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6076540.stm

Indian courts are weak, inefficient and incapable to protect the business and the democracy in India.

jcage

October 26, 2006 01:45 AM

India does not use Tank to roll over his people. India like to use to Hindus mob to rob and kill anyone that they don't like to have freedom or different opinon that the Hindus majority.

Blood thirsty Hindus mob kill a lot of Sikh during operation Blue Star. Many muslim in India are being linched by the same blood thirsty Hindus mob.

When will Sikkim, Khalistan and Kashmir and other minority get their own countries? When?

nikhil

October 26, 2006 02:15 AM

When will Tibet, Taiwan, Muslim dominated provinces and even Hong Kong of China get liberty? Let's not insult religions here jcage. Business Week should not publish blogs which attacks any religious community. Hindus are "blood thirsty"...jcage I think you are a Pakistani...member of the worlds elite failed states..pls confirm

jcage

October 26, 2006 02:56 AM

No one is insulting religion. I was stating a fact and if you don't like it, then I would apology right now.
However, the fact is that many Sikh were killed during operation Blue Star. This is a fact, many Sikh were killed by the Hindus majority throught the Hindus Army and Hindus mob.
Indian like to brag all the time about their so called greatest democracy in the world and so proud of their humbleness that they can not take any criticism at all.
People like smartopinion like to brag and insult other people that he/she does agree with and like to deny other freedom of speech through censure just because other people opinion does not agree with them.

google

October 27, 2006 01:50 AM

Please try to google "shanghai guangzhou shenzhen beijing" pictures.

All these cities can be compared to New York and Toyko. Stop being stupid.

China already has the world's best Skyscrapers, Airport, Highway, Metro systems and they are expanding at least 30% each year.
These things are very good for improving life quality.

Actually chinese are not interested in India or even Japan. Their goals are to surpass U.S in the next few decades.

Steven

October 27, 2006 04:49 PM

here is an article:
Comparing China with india by numbers

http://newschecker.blogspot.com/2006/10/comparing-china-with-india-by-numbers_23.html

Yahoo

October 28, 2006 03:35 AM

That swhat China is all about "shanghai guangzhou shenzhen beijing"..Coastal wonderlands build at the expense of the blood of poor Chinese people....How long will this latest version of the USSR last??!!

KY

October 30, 2006 04:38 PM

Friends,
Let's not speculate who will win the race, democracy or authoritarian. Please take a look at my thread, where you can see hundreds of pictures of tens of Chinese cities in coastal provinces as well as inland provinces

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=401687

Enjoy

David Chen

October 31, 2006 07:09 AM

Well "shanghai guangzhou shenzhen beijing"..Coastal wonderlands will definetly last. And they also exists as a modified copy of other modern cities. Personally I think copying is great because it encourage stable evolution. Even in nature, copying is imminent. If someone is arguing about originality to the extend of creating something totally different, then I must say, this is a bad idea. If people are so into originally why not re-engineer their genes so they can reproduce and enjoy themselves with themselfs? Of course that is not too impressive to me, I would choose to be human similar to many existing yet slitely different replicats?

But one thing that his forum did demostrate is that you must first copy before a better copy can be produce. So I would suggest India to copy others when they see fit and improve it later on.

MYS21

November 1, 2006 03:46 AM

To: KY
Thanks. Good Job, really nice pictures which clarify.

My hometown is ChongQing in SouthWest of China. I know clearly what happend these years. All Indian friends are welcome to China, to my hometown. If you need help, don't hesitate to contact me at any time by e-mail: sgj_18@hotmail.com


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=401687

Ray Goldberg

November 5, 2006 02:15 AM

Have you seen the architecture in Moscow,Russia truly mindboggling made by the communists during their heyday...today post democracy Russsia has been reduced to poverty and scrap..yes they are on the rise again thanks to high commodity prices but they have years to go to achieve anything near what th e west has.The point is dont simply go buy the Shiny glass and chrome towers they are no indicators of wise economics...

jim

November 5, 2006 10:53 PM

To: Ray Goldberg,
Sounds a bit like sour grapes.

If you build, they are going to be there lasting into the future. If you don't build, eventually there are going to be nothing...

KY

November 7, 2006 05:37 AM

Ray Goldberg,
Your argument is not based on fact. When did Russia have architecture in Moscow truly mindbloggling? Check this site to see how many top skyscrapers were in Russia in 1980 before communism collapsed.

http://homepages.ipact.nl/~egram/buildings1980.html

Ray Goldberg

November 8, 2006 04:16 AM

Well in Moscow in the 80's,money meant for development of industries and other necessary infrastructure was swindled to make these structural wonders to satisfy the palates of luxury craving Comms.

General Interest

November 9, 2006 10:56 AM

"When will Sikkim, Khalistan and Kashmir and other minority get their own countries? When?"

AFTER Pakistan terrorist occupied Kashmir, the entire Islamic belt, Tibet, Taiwan, Northern Ireland etc. get full independence, democracy and a stable government !!

Dilip

November 9, 2006 05:22 PM

What's the big deal?
China opened the economy in 1979.
India opened the economy in 1991.

The Indian approach is different and far more cost effective.

If China has a penis complex then it's their problem.

JAY

November 10, 2006 06:42 AM

India is full of political corruption so Mumbai can never become a city like Shanghai in the present, past and future.

duck

November 11, 2006 06:28 PM

When China opened their economy at 1979, their economy was twice as small as India's.

Today, China's GDP is 3 times bigger than India's.

These are facts.

stone_ms

November 12, 2006 03:34 AM

The indian approach is cost effective is because they invest so little.

Ram

November 18, 2006 04:51 PM

I would like to say only one thing. India will take a long time to catch up with China and build those cities and highways. May be 15 years, may be 25 or even 30 years. But eventually India will Build those cities and highways. But mark my words, China will never, never ever, build a democractic country like India where freedom of expression is protected. I have no doubt China will go the USSR way some day.

But it would be better if India can get its act together quickly and move faster.

jonathan

November 20, 2006 03:27 PM

A lot of Indians on this board are saying that China opened in 1978 and India only in 1991, so a comparison is invalid. This is absolutely false. The majority of China (like Shanghai and Beijing) opened during the 1990s, not 1978. 1978 was only opened for a few southern villages like Shenzhen (it's a major city today). Reforms in 1978 were mostly agricultural.

The Chinese system has brought more wealth to a greater number of people at faster pace than the Indian system.

Japan, South Korea and Taiwan were not democracies when they first got developed. Post-WWII Japan has been under one-party rule for the past half century (except for 2 years).

There is a lesson here. Too bad the Indians refuse to see it.

stone_ms

November 24, 2006 04:42 AM

seems like most indians here do not like to talk about how to catch up with China, but DO like to talk about how China will collapse.

KY

November 28, 2006 09:40 AM

Let me summarize current Indian mentality here.

1) Indian used to deny that China is developing faster. Many Indians believed that the Chinese statistical data were untrue and were inflated by Chinese communist government.


2) As the fact became more evident, Indians started changing their mentality from denial to excuse. Indians found several excuses for why they are lagging behind, such as China opened earlier than India, democracy moves slower but is more sustainable, etc,

3) After Indians found that it was difficult to catch up China, Indians changed their mentality to praying for the collapse of China.

India can catch up China only if Indians can get rid of these harmful mentalities. You can succeed by hardworking, but not by trying to deny other’s success, excuse your own failure, and pray the collapse of others.

google

November 29, 2006 12:56 PM

To us Chinese, we are only interesting in comparing with U.S

I have seen tons of pictures of indian big cities(mumbai, deli)...It seems that most Indian are still living in the hell, while the Chinese big cities(shanghai, guangzhou, beijing) look like heaven.

ammadio

December 4, 2006 01:02 AM

Hey google, Have you ever visited India, lived in India ? Before calling it Hell, please come and spend some time here.
Talking to many Chinese colleagues of mine in the US, I have realised that none would want to go back to China. This is inspite of the glittering buildings and malls.
Whereas, there is a mass exodus of Indians from US to India(which you call as hell).

Well, there is has to be somethign welcoming in India for so many well settled Indians in the US to come back to.

To begin with, life is not just buildings and malls.
I think living in a communist society, many Chinese have no idea what life is. They have become like robots. Working 10 hours non-stop in factories, essentially laboring so that Americans can have a high standard of living. They havent realised that the Government in its quest for a showcasing China has forgotten its people.

It doesnt mean that India is a land of milk and honey. In India the problem today is democracy. When an official is elected, the only thing in their agends is hold on to the seat as long as possible. For achieving that they resort to populist measures like, appeasement of minorities, reservation for the backward castes and also try to enrich themselves in the window of opportunity.
So, is there hope for India. I think the people are hopeful. Foreigners like Bruce have written off India and seem to enjoy comparing India with China.
I myself have relocated to India after living in the US for 15 years and I dont find this place "hellish".
BTW, I have also lived in Singapore for year. Its orderliness, clean and efficient transport system and other conveniences could not convince me to stay any longer.

Tirath

December 10, 2006 06:55 AM

There is a difference between democracy; and bureaucracy and corruption.

Large no. of permissions required, legal hurdles, bribes, etc. The list goes on.

e.g. Mumbai could connect itself from within with better roads, but too dense a population and all politicians go against "the poor " vote bank that they have.

Mumbai could connect to Navi Mumbai and expand itself beyond the island that it is confined in, but nooooo. .. . .

We have to build within the island city.

Somehow short distances with very heavy traffic makes more sense than a longer distance with smooth flow of traffic.

I think I could go on and on. but I will stop

Vinit

December 18, 2006 03:04 PM


If China is so great, then how come smuggling and illegal migrations to Europe/Japan/U.S.A is so common among chinese people?

In any case, the reason why china has become so sucessful is that starting labour unions and strikes are illegal, and up till now chinese labour was quite cheap. The price for this was the 80,000 riots in china last year and increasing. China is a factory, not a consumer market.

It cannot compete in the age of robotics, demographic decline, cheaper labour elsewhere and tariffs.

amor

December 30, 2006 02:03 AM

to vinit labour cost in china is not as bad as in india. so try to back your statement with facts.

Clearer Mind

January 4, 2007 04:20 PM

West has done such a good job misleading the world, specially Indians, to believe India is on the right path of development. Unfortunately, the truth of matter is that there is no comparision between China and India, and the service sector alone will not make India a strong country. India is not even on par with Taiwan or South Korea, for example in terms of export. Remember 'Shock Therapy' for Russia? Indians need to think clearly what's the best for India, not to become a victim of other contries policy.

Best wish for India.

Akshay

January 5, 2007 04:59 AM

The Indian democracy consists of peoples from an extremely wide variety of linguistic & cultural backgrounds. Therefore, any comparisons with the democracies of a relatively homogeneous race of people, such as the Japanese, Koreans, or Taiwanese, does not yield any concrete, useful solutions. The Indian government has to deal with a much larger set of (conflicting) interest-groups than any other country on the planet. That's a fact! There aren't many copy-paste solutions which can be adopted into the Indian framework, apart from the liberalization of economic policies, which is already happening as deemed fit in the current context. India's socio-economic problems are unique, as should be its growth strategy for the new millennium.

The overly polarized points-of-view advocated by Mr. Einhorn in his series of posts are inadequately researched and clearly intended to stir up conflict based on national identity & interest. Moreover, his simplistic arguments based on relatively old data do not appeal to reason, and his lack of optimism is disappointing. Each country will pursue what it regards beneficial for itself & its people, irrespective of whether Mr. Einhorn approves or not. Let us not waste any more time on his nonsense. Cheers!

1

January 10, 2007 01:09 AM


Funny to see the nationalistic sentiment of the indian readers of this article. My professor at York University in Canada warned me of the nationalist sentiment of many Indian scholars, despite the great work they produce, an Indian PhD writes like a child when it comes to extreme bias as a result of nationalism. Something I've seen here.

So back to the point, a lot of Indian scholars accuse "Americans" of not recognizing India's diversity, which they claim is a major reason India is not developing.

I will accept that argument as partly true, but what a lot of you guys havent remembered is that China, with the worlds largest population also has a diverse population. Yes, China has a single dominant language, which is Manderine (kinda like Hindi in India), however every province has its own language, from the two main ones, Cantonese and Manderine... did you know the people in Shanghai spoke a different language? How bout to the east, they have Xinxiang, the Muslim region of China, which speaks a completely different language, we have Tibet... and to the North, we have inner Mongolia.

Of course, the western parts of china tends to be more wealthy, so we have the migration of all these language groups to the west. China faces the same problems and they found a way to deal with it.

Indian scholars love to praise their democracy, but India has one of the worst developed democracies in the world. Corruption is high, and the Indian government (like the Chinese) get away with gross human rihgts violations.

When all is said in done however, China's standard of living has increased steadily, while in India, the poor has taken a even deeper dive. China's middle class is at its largest ever, at $250 million and counting, so progress is being made.

India gained its independence in 1949 and immediately became a democracy. So India has had since 1949 to really develop. China on the otherhand did not begin its reforms until the 1980's. China has grown remarkably... almost 9%.

India has consistently lagged in growth. Numbers dont lie. And also remember, China is already more advanced than India economically and technologically. Even if the % were the same (hypothetically)... China being in a much more advanced stage would obviously continue to grow faster.

I see India has a major power in the future, but they will always live in the shadows of hte Peoples Republic of China. By the time India becomes as wealthy as China now, China most likely would have evolved into its own democracy.

oohkuchi

January 22, 2007 08:50 AM

Democracy vs. dictatorship: Japan, South Korea and Taiwan all did their infrastructure/basic industry heavy work under dictatorship or elected one-party rule, not full-fledged democracy. Hong Kong flourished under British rule, in other words, mild dictatorship.

ammadio

January 23, 2007 03:32 AM

Diversity in China has always been under attack. The government by sending millions of "Han" chinese to Xinjian and Tibet, have made sure that the locals are no longer a major force.

Hundreds of years ago, a lot ancient scripts and langauge systems were destroyed and Mandarin was enforced upon people.

The business of enforcing things down peoples throat is not new in china and it still continues.

If you are evalauting development by counting the number of skyscrapers in Shangai or the number of cars in Beijing then I think you have been misled.

People development is what counts.

Coming back to India.

I agree, India has a long way to go in every field. We are a poor, corrupt developing nation. Many in India truly believe that India is a superpower. For those of you, I feel sorry.


BTW, for all those of you who want to know things about china that is not mentioned in this blog, please check out : http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6924667

cool_ak

January 26, 2007 07:15 PM

Making news out of nothing has long been been an accusation against media. Never the less when it comes out on premier magzines like businessweek it is a matter of concern. Having read some of the past articles of Bruce, it can be easily surmised that it has been written with little research and showcase an inherent bias.
Articles coming from a senior editor should be properly researched and should convey facts rather than personel opinions. It seems that the magzine is really falling short of qualified articles.

Bhupesh Joshi

February 2, 2007 05:06 AM

Dear Friends,

As an Indian who keeps falling in love with India time and again. today I realise how much we have changed over the years. I grew up in a small town in the north of India and my education thankfully never gave me any false illusion about my country's position in the World. I always knew that I was poor and I learned to live with my poverty. I started enjoying the morning sun and bike rides on the dusty roads of India. I had no false illusion about growth and progress and where the world was heading. There was this feeling of contentment and I learned this art of self pity. It just makes the whole experience of living in India so good. We always criticised our politicans, our sportspersons, everyone possible. And that gave us a lot of strenghth to continue. And Pakistan was the best punching bag we found very ealry in our lives. Oh whenever we were frustrated we were hitting it with full anger and we felt happy again. However, somewhere things changed and this country started changing. May be that was God's way of saying that comeon guys get up and get going. We stopped comparing ourselves with Pakistan. And I tell you what the day we started comparing ourselves with China, it was the happiest day. After all we had started talking about development. And let me tell you it has not been more than 8 years since then. Guys we have just woken up and we have nothing to lose. Whatever we achieve from now onwards is going to give us strength. And yes when you have nothing to lose, you only win. It is just a beginning. In the era of globalization, a country as big as India developing at a fast pace is a power to reckon. India does not have to become China because for centuries both these countries are different. Let us become less poor, let us become more economically self reliant. Centuries of knowledge will start unraveling then. We will both gain a lot from one another then.

I know that we have been one of the most important civilizations/countries for centuries. The world cannot live without India because if they do so they will be so intellectually poorer. I recommend all of you who are not Indians to live in this country for at least 6 months to gain a new perspective in life.

Good luck!

Devgi

February 9, 2007 10:06 PM

It is silly to want to compare India vs China. Both are hungry and equally bright people. One thing everybody has missed out, is the difference between corporate India and corporate China. Corporate India is based solely on demand of its consumers/middle class till now. Whereas China is corporately still guided by foreign MNC's and its industry feeds of the world demand rather then its own demand.
In the past Korea based on Japenese know how ( Osaka/Seoul special weekend flights), and also American trained managers presence helped launch few good global brands, China like Korea 20 yrs ago, is the largest producing OEM for Japanese and Korean companies yet it has not been able to translate that into its own brands. Taiwan on the other hand is just a electronics OEM country and has only two global brands (Asus and Acer)What I am getting to is how come the Japnese and Korean knew how to sustain and build global brands but China doesnot? It is simple, a culture of private sector participation is missing. And India is rapidly moving down that road.
All said and done China has the product now but it lacks managers who can compete in a global forum (look at Lenevo and a line of car and mobile producers who have yet to make the mark outside China) India's Hong Kong and Singapore is the India's corporate world. The private companies in India are rapidly multiplying and efficently growing. The west has no problem trusting Indian companies. It is the Indian corporate privatisation that will launch India higher in terms of the number of middle class consumer. In house consumers are boon for any industry before it hits the export market. History will show the unfortunate effect of India private company with market protectionist wands like Birla's, Bajaj and other keeping Congress and Indra G in slush fund.As a result they kept dishing out substandard and outdate products to a no option Indian consumer. A socialist leaning India is now leaning capitalist way. Truely this capitalist streak which is deeply ingrained in the Indian corporate mindset and has a headstart on the Chinses corporate mindset will take on the global challenge to bring India upto the mark. India and China were once the richest nation empires. It will happen again. Indian Elephant woke up in 1991 and I donot think India's corporations are looking at China's low cost product industry as our objective. You will see India will be looking to be a leader in global service industry. Which if it does happen I think is good for the global consumer.

vijay kurhade

February 10, 2007 05:59 PM

India and China both have largest populations both share many similarities in terms of principles, core values, belivers in peice and solidarity.

Though there are few aheads and behinds here and there, both are learnring and sure will deliver.

sophia

February 10, 2007 11:46 PM

all my friends, what is the point of comparing India and China. no doubt India is far more behind China in terms of econmic development, social-cultural and others. For Indians, pls wake up, and bear in mind that denying is not the soultion for being a better country. the only thing u guys need to do is to bulit the infrastructure and a peaceful mind of unionizations.At least, complainting and comparing won't lead you anywhere!!!!

Vikram Garg

February 18, 2007 01:15 AM

To all Indians who have posted here, we brag abt our democracy but do we USE it. Do we join NGOs, fight corruption , use the freedom we supposedly have ?

To all others, how can u claim that Indians r not ready to learn from the west or China ? U should probably read what our Finance minister has been saying. You should also read what the CM of Maharashtra requested Hu Jintao when he visited. Where do u think our democracy (however efficient) came from ? Why have we stuck with such a 'western' institution for 60 years ?

Satish Krishnan

March 10, 2007 04:19 PM

In India rules are laid by the party in government. the rule says, "Fill your bank accounts before the other party takes over".

India has progressed not because of the government but inspite of the government. Our government is very well know to kill the golden goose. I think there is no country which can dream of getting close to India on levels of corruption.

Sportsman turned convicted murderer turned politician becomes MLA because he has a "humorous" way of talking? What bull*** is this? And the court showers praises on that?

You guys dont even know the amount of money stashed in foreign accounts by top politicians. I will help you do a math on JUST one industry.
Every ton of iron ore exported gets $7, in black, to the politicians. And we exported 165 million MT last year. And from the other end (read steel companies), 4 times this amount is collected to "pass" a duty on export of iron ore. Do the math !!

Do you even know the amount of money that was collected to "ban" cotton exports from the top textile companies?

I am ashamed of living in a country like this. There is nothing to be proud in this country when you know that every basic "development" like construction of highways/roads involving bribing the politicians in billions.

C.T.Arul

March 16, 2007 09:05 AM

Indian goverment plans for 50 years ahead and then executes the projects after 25 years and when they finish the project its 70 years .
forget all democracy and history and values when we talk of this we are just trying to close the fact and digging our own grave its a shame we dont have a subway or an efficiant transportaion and power in a so called hi tech software labour city Bangalore.

Nigel

April 4, 2007 06:52 AM

Honestly why are you "human beings" arguing over this China vs India thing so feverishly. Gosh what a complete waste of time and valuable electricity. The fact is the amount of poor people in both countries could repopulate both the Americas and Europe. China is poor and India is poorer, why would you want to compare being poor to poorer or likewise?

When you combine their nominal GDP it only amounts to almost 3 trillion (China around $2.2 trillion and India $0.7 trillion). Now put this against the backdrop of the United States' $14 trillion. It is a total embarrassment isn't it? What it looks like to me (and possibly people of other nationalities) are two dogs fighting over a scrap of unwanted meat. So say if India does beat China is 10,20,30 years time, what then? Oh you win a thing called pride! Congratulations, now what do we do about the 100+ million starving children?

If anything the article title should be "Americans can build things. Why can't Asians?

Ben Johnston

April 9, 2007 10:22 PM

To all self-praising Indians:

Don't accuse just the Chinese of illegal immigration and people smuggling.There are a hell of a lot Indians who are arrested all over the world for the same offences as well.It is not unusual to find illegals from India as well as other parts of south asia trying to enter Europe hidden in concealed cramped up spaces at the back of some vehicle on a very regular basis or trying to get into the middle east in crowded half sinking boats to look for jobs knowing well the reputation of arabs and their contempt for desis or washing up on the shores of North America like sea weed and asking for political asylum.Talk about India as being a country worthy of being labelled as developed and global power only when people seek to migrate to India and not from it.Atleast China can proudly show the world its measure of development in Shanghai and a host of other urban centers while the best India can offer is an eyesore like SLUMBAI.

India's dustbin democracy is nothing to feel proud of if every government that gets voted to power has the same corrupt self serving agenda and gets nothing done and who says India is more free than China? If having the freedom of starving to death on the streets like stray animals for hundreds of millions of impoverished Indians or having freedom and dignity as regulated by the caste system are the Indian's idea of freedom/democracy then I'm sure the Chinese are glad they don't have democracy.

I have been to India many times and travelled widely within the country and the apalling levels of grinding poverty was all too evident everywhere.India also has the highest number of AIDS cases in the world and increasing by the day and with a corrupt government and overall uncaring society in place,it's unlikely India will be able to arrest this catastrophy in the making.

I would agree that it is foolish to compare India with China as apart from similar demographic size the two share nothing else in common.China is light years ahead of India economically,militarily,development wise and even in terms of international prestige China clearly has the lead by a very wide margin.No doubt China has it's share of serious problems and challenges but atleast the Chinese "dictators" running the country have proved themselves competent enough to steer the ship while it navigates through stormy conditions.The same can't be said about "shining" India.

Indians should stop their shameless self-promotion campaign.With so little to show the world you Indians should concentrate harder on overcoming the problems facing you instead of thumping your chests in self-congratulation.

Jason

April 10, 2007 10:58 PM

It seems like there is a big mix of opinions of China among Indians.

Let's give the fact:

1. China does have poor people, a lot, but still the poorest people in China lives like India's middle class. In China, annual income under USD $1000 is considered poor. I think that's what India classifies as middle class.

2. China does not restrict city entries. The Hukou system merely affects health benefit, schooling, and etc. It is not like we have troops guarding city border like Iraq.

3. Using democracy as an execuse is laughable.

4. If Indians deny the above facts, well, India ain't gonna develop ever.

Jackie Chan

April 25, 2007 08:03 PM

Agreed that China is still a poor developing third world state with a lot of distance to cover before rubbing shoulders with the developed elite despite two decades of stellar performance and should be spared the indignity of being compared with a hopeless underdeveloped fourth world hole like India.

Indians grow up first the think about overtaking China

April 28, 2007 01:12 PM

It's almost as if every Indian is praying day and night for China to collapse because with China in the way India has no hope of developing.LOL!! Such immature and childish insecurity in a nation that shamelessly touts itself as the future superpower that is going to overshadow China and even the USA in a ridiculously short period of time.This alone proves how much confidence Indians really have in their own country and what India's real chances of becoming superpower are.You sure don't find any Chinese pointing fingers at India all the time just to dig out dirt.As far as the Chinese are concerned India and Indians don't even register on their radar.The Chinese are well aware of their own problems and shortcomings and they are working very hard to find a solution to these problems even if the path to full success is very long and fraught with extreme difficulties.The Chinese are realistic about current developments and forthcoming with facts by admitting that it will take atleast another 100 years of rapid progress for China to truly consider itself a superpower from every angle of perception.Compare that with the Indians who boast about themselves as being the smartest people in the world yet they demonstrate such shallowness by declaring India a major world power, NAY!! a superpower even in it's present delapitated condition.Metaphorically speaking Indians are throwing parties to celebrate their insignificant achievements while ignoring the many problems that are diasters in waiting for India in the not too distant future such as India's outrageous population growth rate that is spiralling out of control and the increase in abject poverty that comes with uncontrolled population explosion and India has the unenviable position of being the country with largest HIV/AIDS population in the world today,overtaking even sub-Saharan Africa in numbers and I don't even need to mention the other problems in India such as corruption which is worse than China's,an inefficient government as the result of a dysfunctional democracy and the numerous armed insurgencies taking place in Kashmir and the North-Eastern states.Inspite of all these insurmountable problems Indians are not concerned about their own country collapsing then by what logic do Indians predict China's (imminent) collapse? India's frequent caste,religious and ethnic conflicts would make even the violent demonstrations by China's rural poor pale in comparision and if an inept Indian govt. and an equally inept Indian army has somehow managed to prevent Kashmir or the North-Eastern states of India from seperating then why should China's Xinjiang and Tibet provinces be the catalyst for China's disintegration? Trust me the Chinese state and it's security apparatus manage to keep the trouble makers in either Xinjiang,Tibet or for that matter anywhere else within the country in check in a far more effective manner that the Indians in their own potential domestic trouble spots.You Indians and your ostrich like approach isn't going to propel India ahead of China as a matter of fact it isn't too unrealistic to assume that the gap between China and India will widen even furthur in China's favour.

It is simply hilarious how Indians contradict themselves with their "We cannot develop as fast as China because we are a democracy and not a dictatorship like China".What kind of point are these Indians trying to make with such self serving statements that have ambiguous if not nonsensical meaning? Why do you tout around a democracy that fails to deliver the desired results as an advantage over China's comparitively much more productive system even if China's system is more authotarian in nature.Statements like these are just shameless excuses to coverup your own failures.

Indians!! Forget about being the smartest people in the world,just try to be more practical and realistic for a change if you want to take the first step in the right direction.In the mean time don't pre-occupy yourselves with China's problems wether those problems are actual or percieved or just blown out of propotion.Gloat as much as you want towards the fire in your neighbour's kitchen and ignore the fire that is about to consume your whole house.

labrea

May 6, 2007 08:27 PM

It's not quite accurate that Japan, Korea and Taiwan have had 'democracies' in the accepted sense of the word, at least not prior to the '90s, especially Taiwan, Korea and Thailand which for all intents and purposes were benign dictatorships, not to mention these countries are homogenous societies all with the same ethnicity(overwhelmingly), religion, and language - the same can't be said for India which is as diverse as they come - literally.
Yet the sad fact is, and as many has already indicated, it's all about governance or its lack thereof - the total lack of political will by India's spineless, quarrelsome, undisciplined, self-serving politicians.
As for reforms, it was only with the demise of the Soviet Union and the resultant bankruptcy of the Indian economy in early '90s was the govt forced to change course and usher in 'reforms' as a last resort - reforms which have allowed the economy to grow almost exponentially. And yes, China's totalitarian govt can do anythting it wants, anyhow, anytime, anywhere - no one can do anything about it - not the oppressed masses, and especially not the international community, which from time to time issues impotent, carefully-worded, useless protest statements purely for public consumption. The long and short of it - there's little point in comparing India and China - it's almost like comparing the USA and USSR - apples and potatoes. India will keep on muddling along, taking one step forward and two steps back, merrily singing "chalta hai".

New York Yankees

May 21, 2007 09:44 AM

Do not criticize India on Businessweek.

Don't you people know that Indians are the majority here?

There was a survey by business recently asking readers to vote wich city in Asia is the bebst to live in...and MUMBAI won the poll. MUMBAI beated out ciy like Sydney, Singapore, and Tokyo. Are you kidding me? It is obvious that Businessweek has become home to many Indian nationlists.

I am neither Indian nor Chinese, but I can tell you that Indians love to hype themselves up but never pony up to reality.

India has given a bad name to democracy. Does democracy means to be poor and full of excuses?

A billion+ people can't win a single olympic medal? What are the excuses? No sports facilities? No money?... How does an African or Caribean nation with less than 10 million people win more medals in one olympics then India in the history of the olympics?

Nobody here in America has ever seen a picture of India without the Taj. Why? because that the only thing that looks good in India. And it was built centuries ago!

It is ok to be a developing Nation, at lest be humble about it. The rest of the world isn't buying into the hype of yor gov't or journalists and your "intellects"

Be humble and people might actualy respect you.

jay

May 22, 2007 03:09 AM

Back in college I was taking an Industrial Revolution class that was taught by a British professor. Funniest thing I ever heard in a lecture (probably also the most inappropriate). The reason why the industrial revolution didn't take off in India - even though the Brits were the rulers there at the time - was because it took three Indians to do the work of one Englishmen. He said the Indians would always take breaks, cool off from the humidity, lounge around and just chat it up. Sort of like what we're doing here. So, plain and simple, the reason why Mumbai isn't anywhere close to Shanghai in terms of modernity is because (according to my prof) "Indians are lazy". Sorry to break it down so bluntly, but this thread of comments is pure proof.

Shrav

May 27, 2007 09:38 AM

The only real difference between india and china is that china has invested many billions into infrastructure to create show cities and enormous factories for the mutitudes of cheap labor. All said and done i believe china is economically more powerful at this time but india is experiencing a more glassroots organic growth that is driven by individuals more and run less by controlled government capital. The communist party needs to create the shock and awe effect of incredible growth to remain in power.India has many problems but at the end of the day we are moving away from a lot of historical baggage that china tried erasing through the communist rovolution. We do not need a communist experiment in india. What we do need is a single strong political party that moved things forward. That did happen briefly before the congress party came back in power with its 11 member coalition (Classic example of too many cooks). Read more facts below before tying away..

http://www.investmentu.com/IUEL/2005/20050506.html

pragmatic

May 27, 2007 09:48 PM


On one hand, you said "india is experiencing a more glassroots organic growth that is driven by individuals more and run less by controlled government capital". You like less govenment control and see hope in India due to this.

On the other hand, you said "What we do need is a single strong political party that moved things forward". You're contradicting yourself, man.

It seems that you don't really know what you want or what is good for India.

Shrav

May 28, 2007 02:46 PM

In reply to Pragmatic..

I do see why you misunderstood my comment. The difference between a strong political party in india and one in china is that in india we get to elect our party :) I have not contradicted myself in anyway..

Shrav

May 28, 2007 02:54 PM

In reponse to Jay..

I dont think in our current reality anyone takes the british opinion of india seriously. Their time has come and gone. Winston Churchill who by many is considered thier greatest prime minister called Gandhi a naked sadhu and argued that india would fall apart within months of the british leaving in 1947. He would probably turning in his grave at this time if he know how wrong he was. India was kept poor for good reason during colonization just as other british colonies did. Thats what colonization was about. Did anyone teach you that in school?

An American

May 30, 2007 07:57 PM

Bottomline is that nations need governments that get things done and not just make empty promises that will be broken with impunity once elected into office.What difference does it make if one gets to elect a party to power or if the party in power is autocratic? Democracy in India is no big deal if Indians get to elect one corrupt/incompetent party after another.If nothing is being done for the country then neither democracy nor communism matter.It is the quality of leadership that makes the difference not just the political system.Democracy is no 100% assurance for development.

Yes,I have also had the misfortune of having to work alongside many Indians for a long time and in different places and the overwhelming majority of these people are lazy,like to have it easy,chit chat all the time and leave work pending.They are ever ready to take credit for somebody else's accomplishment and equally ready to distance themselves from blame that was due to their own fault.Most Indians are boastful and have hyped up egos and never make good team players.Their spinelessness,lack of sincerity and backstabbing politics have gotten me into trouble on more than one occasion.If this is what most Indians are made up of then I don't find it surprising why India never has a capable government and why China has a massive lead over India in every area,a lead that China is widening furthur in it's favour.

K-Fed

June 2, 2007 10:08 PM

Instead of touting your failure democracy like some badge of honour, you Indians should hang your heads in shame because even after 60 years of having the privilage of getting to elect your own government, you Indians have failed to bring even one single competent regime that can undo the mess.

As far I am concerned, by promoting India's ridiculous hype just for the sake of trying to prevent China's rise, America is making a mistake similar to the one made in Afghanistan during the 80s when America openly suppported,trained and supplied radical Islamic terrorist thugs like Bin Laden and a host of others and falsely touted them as holy warriors/freedom fighters just for the sake of undermining the Soviets during the cold war. Now these same people who enjoyed America's unrestrained support have turned around to bite the hand that fed them, becoming America's number one enemies.The west is reaping the bitter harvest of allowing hoardes of immigrants from the muslim world to flood into western countries.Europe is past the point of no return where it's too late to prevent an eventual muslim takeover and America is following in similar manner.

America is wasting time and energy by deliberately trying to make an enemy out of China whereas the real enemy, the Islamic monster that America itself helped to create is already inside our territories and destroying us from within.

Recruting a useless country like India in an attempt to help America hold down China is an exercise in futility.

Shrav

June 4, 2007 01:36 PM

So many armchair experts :)....

Shrav

June 4, 2007 01:49 PM

Another link for thinkers..

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3348

Jia Ming

June 6, 2007 02:56 PM

Enough with the trash talking from both Chinese and Indians. Both countries are growing at about the same pace. Both will probably achieve per capita GDP of about 1/2 of the advanced nations in a few decades. Forget the superpower status or total GDP. Ten people making $10/hr is not better than one person making $9/hr.

Indians, China probably won't crash any time soon so don't count on it.

Chinese, India will slowly catch up. We are not superior to Indians so deal with it.

FromGermanywithLove

June 7, 2007 10:55 AM

How come a democratic "superpower" like India is not part of the G8? are you telling me that the likes of Italy and Canada is there but not might India?

James Wang

June 9, 2007 12:43 PM

India may develop a lot in future, it all depends but all this crap about India overtaking China and China collapsing is pure nonsense. China will always be in the lead. Indians should thank their lucky stars if they manage to achieve a reasonable level of development instead of always comparing with China and wishing ill towards China and Chinese people. With this kind of malice that Indians always hold in their hearts against others, it is no surprise why a lot of Chinese have nothing but contempt for Indians.

INDIANS ARE LOSERS BECAUSE THEY DISPLAY THE QUALITIES OF LOSERS

yahoo

June 12, 2007 02:38 AM

china has always been ahead of india in preety much every field with few exception like it sector and maybe cricket and hockey. so to the indians who hopes for the china's collaps wake up it's just not going to happen not at least in 100 years and beside gaps are widening in china's favor every minute. so if ever india want close the gap indians should first be practicle and concentrate finishing the job rather then forwarding the notion of we are democracy and it's not easy in democracy man democracy... in in america , britian , france so on but they seems to be doing great then what's with yours.by the way to those proud indian just for the fact look china in top of the medal standing in olympics and india...? GOD KNOW WHERE

Obie

June 15, 2007 04:18 PM

The problem is not India is hating on China but it seem that they are jelous of China'a rise in the eyes of the west. The western media might hate China but they give the facts about China strenghts and achievements along with the bashing.
I've heard India who lives in America complaining that Nixon should've went to India instead of China.

Many Indians resent the fact that the western media don't pay attention to India like China. Many Indians intellects living in America can see the U.S and Europeans fixated on what happening in China.

Indians are obsess with China and particulary its "failures." On the other hand I don't see India is on any Chinese's radar or any Chinese see India as a measuring stick for anything.

I've always hope that Asians can unite, work toghether and have a mutual benificial relationship. However I see that there are a lot of child-like attitude among Asians, whether it be Japanese vs Chinese or Inidan vs Chinese.

The fact is that the Chinese people have began to modernize and their is no stopping. If China fails the raterfications will be negative through out the world. America and Europe might not like China but they see the benifits of a modern China, this is why Nixon and the West wanted to come to China in the first place.

China got billions of problems with corruptions and human rights and it will continue to have those problems.

Napolean once refer to China as a "sleeping giant" The Chinese people has awaken, they've work hard and have earned everything. Along way the Chinese have look to the West and open to the West for help.

India has a long history as well, but you just can't be wasting your time being jelous or gloat over things like "we have the most billionaire in asia" while most of your population is poor.

I wish my India well in her quest to modernize, but stop wasting your time on China.

Abraham

June 16, 2007 11:17 PM

I was just reading the comments posted here..I could'nt stop laughing by reading all these ignorant statement by both Chinese and Indians . Guys wake up we are both from the oldest and very advanced civilization in the world, unfortunately we are both still third world nations , we should be united , work together to achieve prosperity for our people and the nations.

YinduAsan

June 17, 2007 03:01 PM

To All Indians:
It was unfortunate that Communist government in China, for some unknown reason, had decided not to give India as a country and Indians as a people (or many) a bad name. So, the 1962 border war was deliberately left out from text book, even it was so apparent the war was necessary on the Chinese side to stop India to march into Tibet. So most Chinese people do not even know the war. Chinese government and the media do not carry any negative news coverage about India and Indian people. So in the eyes of general public in China, India is only known as old civilazation, a mystery, a positive image.
Like many overseas Chinese from mainland (most formerly students), I took that image about India and Indian people when I came to US. After so many years of experience with the Indians, in school and at work, all my Chinese fellows and I reached the same conclusion about Indians (from India)
1. They were fed false storied and distorted images from their government and new media about China while they were in India, thus very hostile toward Chinese nationals
2. Most Indians are lazy, dilatory, yet always at the forefront to claim the credits, even they are not entitled
3. Most likes to brag about their India and Indians
4. I have been paying attention to some indian new outlets, such as www.rediff.com or timesofindia.com, to find out how they carry any stories about China. Boy, I am truly amazed how their media function even they like to claim their country is a biggest democracy. That basically answered my question why Indians held a such distorted view toward China.

shrav

June 19, 2007 09:29 AM

Oh! those poor chinese Always misunderstood despite their good intentions...There must be something wrong with the rest of the world.

yaseen malik

June 20, 2007 08:19 PM

The pathetic one-upmanship that Indians love to indulge in blogs is laughable. In reality, I seriously doubt the cowardly Indians would have the courage to get involved in a game of brinkmanship with China.

george david

June 21, 2007 07:29 AM

For the software industry where many Indians put a lot of their pride, Here is some reality check:
According to Http://tech.sina.com.cn/it/2007-06-14/13291563198.shtml , the Chinese software industry,if combining domestic and outsourcing, reached 480 billion RMB in 2006, which is about 60 to 70 billion dollars.It has already surpassed India's software industry according to the article.
India software outsource revenue in 2004 to 2005 is 17.2 billion dollars (http://news.com.com/Indian+software,+service+exports+on+rise/2100-1007_3-5729524.html)
Assuming 33% growth last two years, it should be around 32 billion for 2006 - 2007. Since India doesn't have big domestic market, we probably can safely assume the total India software industry revenue no more than 40 billion dollars.

Have

June 21, 2007 01:40 PM

Its funny when pakistanis talk about india and china. Like they matter :) India has many ways to deal with china. Games of brickmanship are only now beginning.

oohkuchi

June 21, 2007 11:11 PM

"Yes, the Chinese don’t have elections. But the Japanese do. So do the Koreans and the Taiwanese. They manage to build things anyway."--But South Korea and Taiwan built themselves up under dictatorship, and Japan was under elected one-party rule during its high-growth period. Hong Kong was a colony during its economic buildup. Only when SK and TW were essentially developed did they become democratic in the approved Western sense. Democracy IS an impediment to growth at early stages in national development because it does not allow for long-term planning (beyond the five-year electoral cycle) and it cannot force necessary measures on the population. That is one important reason why India is hopelessly behind China and will remain so. Unfortunately for India, though, I doubt that the authoritarian model would work due to the complexity and disunity of its society (as pointed out elsewhere) and so it is stuck with the plodding Hindu growth rate. Better than no growth rate.

yaseen malik

June 22, 2007 08:41 PM

Have:

no, it's funny when over boastful Indians talk like their paper tiger country is something big in the world. Indians may talk tough while hiding behind their computers but in reality India fears China and Pakistan does not fear India. China can pee on India and India will be washed away and Pakistan alone can give India a bloody nose.

What many ways are you talking about? It's no hidden fact that India is very cautious not to offend China. While India can only make empty threats at Pakistan.

I can say for sure that if India tries any brinkmanship, it's India that will end up all bruised. Can India take Aksai Chin from China or even POK from Pakistan?

India is nothing but a paper tiger. By helping promote India's phoney great power hype, America is playing on India's insecurity and jealousy of China to furthur it's own agenda in Asia.

India's so called hi-tech industry produces nothing but third rate softwares. The best India has to show the world is a slum called SLUMBAI, another slum called BANGED-UP-LORE and yet another dirty slum called Gurgaon and India wants to compare these eyesores with Shanghai and Shenzhen?

Have

June 25, 2007 11:48 AM

This discussion is about india and china'a economies. Lets stick to that if possible. Ofcourse everyone is free to play on each other's stereotypes..

ravi

July 11, 2007 03:33 AM

hi guys,

nice to see u all having discussions abt india and china.

I think from this forum and many others that indians are now starting to realize their problems. They are now getting to know tht we need to correct our govt. and now many youngsters are stepping up to become the politicians of the future.

k, 700 million of indians are below the age of 35 at today's time.

its true tht 25% still live below poverty line, but I am happy tht the level of poverty has declined over years (starting from 60% poverty 60 years ago and now down to 25% at present). The govt these days are now focusing to educate their women and girls as they are now starting to realize tht if a country has to develop further, they need to educate their girls and women. ok tht being said, obviously the literacy rate has risen from 52% 10-12 years ago to 65% at present. Every year the literacy level rises by 1-1.3% in india. Ppl are now getting aware of the importance of education, even a poor guy. Thins are changing in India but at a bit of a slower rate. Even the all time famous ANIME(from japan) arrived to India 2 years ago whereas in China it was already there 20-30 years ago. The widespread appreciation of Indians for Anime shows tht Indians are embracing different cultures and values (visit www.animestan.com ). Indians are now getting aware of the fact tht they now have to work their butt off as the whole world is keeping an eye on them. indians are trying to fix their problems one by one slowly and steadily. the more ppl are becoming educated the more they'll be aware of the problems of the country and therefore they won't do anything that wud harm the interests of the country.I remember one of my maid's daughter told me tht its not good to have too many kids. This shows tht even poor indians are now aware of the problems and will avoid doing them.

We compare ourselves with China but we do not think anything bad abt China or pray for its misfortune. It's just total bullshit. We are happy to see China making great progress in various fields. Nowadays many Indian students go to China for higher studies rather than going to London or U.S. I think China, India and japan shud work collectively rather than stay divided. WE must form Asian union just like European Union.

Subrata Modak

July 11, 2007 04:07 AM

India has every might to not only catch China but shoot it down in the race to Economic prosperity. India's uniqueness is unmatchable anywhere in this whole world. Now that we are little experienced in living with the diverse-democracy, we will catch up soon. There are definite reasons for which India's growth social/economic does not match with China:
1) Stubborn people who doesn't want to change with time, basically boils down to less-brave people who are averse to taking risks and explore new possibilities,
2) Stupid people who wants to hold on to their past legacy of community/caste glory and resisting them selves to be more associated with a gretaer Nation/country concept,
3) Selfish educated youngsters who wants to just earn money after completing their degrees (Let me mention that thousands head to IAS tution centres, not with the AIM to take their Nation to greater Prosperity level, but to take their Bank balances to astronomical heights once they become part of the Admintrative Services elite club),
4) Living Educated corpses who doesn't want to use their education to drive swiping social changes, which would otherwise have eradicated centuries OLD discriminatory racism (covered up and propagated through centuries as caste system)
5) The attitude of the people themselves.
It is the attitude which enables Japan, Taiwan, Korea and not to mention western nations to progress inspite of being Democracies for decades together, and the same Indian attitude to denounce Democracy as an excuse for non-development. The need of the hour is to have some visionaries like Abdul Kalam (poor fellow, he tortured all those in corrupted government for 5 years), Manmohan Singh (I feel pity of that sacrad economist in the Congress jungle), M.S. Swaminathan, Homi Bhaba, Vikram Sarabhai, Satish Dhawan, Murthy, J.D.Tata and others. And the most important need are fire brand youngsters in lines with Bhagat Singh, Rajguru, Sukhdev, Khudiram Bose, Prafulla Chaki and others, who now in Democratic India can fuel the same revolution against corruption, injustice, social and economic inequality. Unfortunately all of them are busy earning Dollars in US/UK or neck deep in stress works in Services/Software companies in Bangalore/Hyderabad/Chennai/Kolkata/Pune !! Anybody ready to play their roles ??

Balbir Talwar

July 16, 2007 07:24 AM

Bruice Einhorn put a simple question 'If China can build it why not India?' and the responses which appear above gives a variety of reactions, which to my mind do not answer the simple question. Strong reactions to justify India's ianability to match China, just because it is a 'democracy', is to my 87 years yong mind unacceptble. What India lacks is 'political will' to tackle its infrastructural problems, specially those relating to 'employment generation' through ;abour-intesive mkanufacturing industries. Alpl else are excuses. India needs a strong political set-up, which is based on sound 'economic agenda'. Indian entrepreuners are second to none.

Katie Li

July 16, 2007 04:37 PM

I agree with ravi that comparing one country to another is to make that country realise their problem, hence can correct it. This is healthy competition between China and India. I believe China and India both have its own uniqueness, both have the potential to achieve greater things. And they both have a common goal, prosperity. Therefore I think apart from some healthy competition, I think they should cooperate on certain areas and help out each other. Each country has its own problem, I do not believe in superiority or inferiority at all. One day I hope to see India and China join hands to work towards a common goal, and Asian countries can work together for the sake of asia. Asia has been going through too much miseries, so why not learn from past mistakes ??

Bruce, I find most of your articles are very provoking with distorting facts and opinions. What makes you think India cannot build things ?? I think the opposite, I believe India can build things.

To the Indian people, please don't feel down because of this BS article, your country can achieve, Indian culture is very rich and Indian people are very skilled and can achieve things like my country China.

People, please stop the hatred and have postive, constructive discussion. It is this kind of "professional" journalist like Bruce that stirred up hatred and racism.

Please stop this Bruce, please

gautam

July 18, 2007 01:49 PM

Its so easy for Americans to be carried away by China's gleaming cities. But there is a lot more to nations than their facade.

A few facts:

1) Until recently, China was self-sufficient in oil. India has been importing more than 70% of its oil needs for over 3 decades.

2) China has received ten times the FDI from overseas Chinese investors - particularly from Taiwan, Hongkong, Singapore and the ASEAN region in addition to an order of magnitude greater investment from most of Korea and Japan's most productive economies.

An earlier poster has already elaborated on this point.

3) China has more arable land per capita as well as more forest land per capita as well as more water resources per capita. It also has more land to mine and utilize for wind farms/solar energy etc.

India is already more densely populated than Japan.

4) China's wealth was not stolen to the extent that India's was during the colonial period.

This can be seen from various social indicators from the 1920s and 1930s.

At that time, when India was still a colony, China had 5 times as many modern universities as India - and many more engineering colleges that could provide engineers for its infrastructure industries.

Look at pictures of Chinese cities such as Xian or Shanghai - they don't look as deprived as the Indian sections of Mumbai.

In 1946 - just before independence, more than 2/3rds of Mumbai's population lived in the most wretched slums.

Britain reduced India to a nation of starving beggars. 60 years cannot erase that deficit.

China entered the modern era with a 25 year lead. China's first modernizer Sun yat Sen preceded India's Nehru b ya quarter century.

Only those with a very superficial or highly jaundiced view of history would expect India to be on par with China after such a huge handicap.

Yet consider areas in which China's record is far worse:

1) More Chinese miners die in a year than Indian miners die in a decade. Even adjusting for China's higher GDP - China's industrial accident rate is much higher than India's.

2) China enjoys the dubious dstinction of having the highest percentage of smokers in tis adult population

3) It also enjoys the unhappy distinction of having over 75% of the world's most heavily polluted cities.

4) While Chinese railways transport 3 times as many goods (per capita) as Indian railways, when it comes to passengers - its quite the other way around.

6 times as many Indians (per capita) use railways services daily as does China.

China has an internal visa regime - India doesn't.
India's poor can swarm to its big cities right for all the tourists to see and deplore. China can deny its poor urban visas so as not to mar its sparkling image.

Indian migrants return home far more often than their Chinese counterparts.

5) India's economic data can be easily verified and cross-checked - how many independant agencies can actually check if rural growth is as high as China claims or if rural poverty is as low as China claims?

Some surveys have shown that Chinese workers take home higher pay packets but only because they work much faster and much longer.

Adjusted for intensity and length of their labor, Chinese workers are more exploited.

6) By and large, the quality of manufactured goods in India exceeds China. If something lasts 30% longer in India, net demand may be 30% less.

That means that a nation that produces 30% more lower quality goods is actually providing little extra than a nation where things are built to last longer.

For instance, 2-wheelers manufactured in India are 40% more fuel eficient, last 4 years longer and have significantly lower emissions on the average.

That is why no Chinese manufacture of 2-wheelers has been able to make any inroads into the Indian market.

7) Compare small town to small town - and China's gleaming edge will vanish - you will see the same underdevelopment - the same shoddy infrastructure - the same backwardness

All that glitters is not gold....

While there is no doubt that the Indian government has done a very poor job in building infrastructure, or that China has a very effective birth control policy - a comparison between the two countries ought not to ignore China's natural and other advantages, and India's historical disadvantages.


Celestial Emperor

July 18, 2007 07:20 PM

99.99% of Chinese posters tend to be overly politically correct and go to ridiculous lengths to appease the Indians while 99.99% of Indian posters tend to be ridiculously ultra jingoistic.

Rajat Shukla

July 19, 2007 07:55 AM

Q: what happens when you bring together lots of people with plenty of free time and an urge to get involved with pseudo intellectual nothingness?

A: you create a business world blog!

Q: okay, and what happens when you pool in many such blogs?
A: you create a magazine called as Business world!


this was only the scond blog i'd visited by clicking on a BW newsletter....and i swear i'm never going to repeat the mistake of opening the newsletter.

Carry on folks, i wish people had better things to do then googling to validate third party opinions. Its good to be patriotic, but mere patriotism never results in economic progress (nor does blogging).

seetobelieve

July 20, 2007 11:35 PM

7) Compare small town to small town - and China's gleaming edge will vanish - you will see the same underdevelopment - the same shoddy infrastructure - the same backwardness

(gautam at July 18, 2007 01:49 PM)

Gautam please read following:

Old Silk Road discovers new prosperity
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-773465,prtpage-1.cms

Some direct quote from the paper:

The quality of civic infrastructure - proper pavements, parks, pedestrian zones - is superior to that of any Indian town and modern housing seems, to the casual visitor at least, to be in ample supply.

Dunhuang airport would put Lucknow or even Kolkata to shame but the Chinese are not satisfied with it: they plan to build a new international airport to accommodate the tourists they hope will arrive here in large numbers eventually.

In a country of China's size, regional disparities in the level of development and prosperity are to be expected. Certainly, many in India are fond of arguing that visitors should not be "taken in" by the prosperity of Beijing or the coastal cities of Shanghai or Shenzhen.

But Dunhuang and other parts of Gansu that we visited are proof that the country's model of growth - of "socialism with Chinese characteristics" - is having a profound impact in the farthest reaches of the country.

The city centre and skyline of Lanzhou - one of the poorer cities of China - look as impressive as Nariman Point.

Please note: Gansu is the poorest province in China. Before you post, please go to take a look by yourself.

JC

July 22, 2007 05:17 PM

Okay, now this argument is just Indians and Chinese. Why argue? Both countries are striving to solve their immense problems and trying to develop their new-found strengths. What would speed up this problem-solving process? A mutual plan between India and China which calls for these emerging nations to work side-by-side. But here we are fighitng, and this is exactly what concerned countries want us to do: They strive to create competition between two nations to avoid a joint effort by India and China. And I find it very ridiculous that we Indians and Chinese spend our time listening to some white guy, who knows barely anything about our two glorious nations, observing our problems and pointing fingers.

China can build things, but why can't India? Well why would we manfacter producs when an nation already produces huge amounts of goods. Some of you argue that this will create jobs, but Indian manufacturers will be unsuccesful against the trusted, and mass producing manufacturers of China.

A similar answer can be given to "India can provide services, why can't China?"

India and China should unite to solve their many problems. China has plenty of factory occupations, so what if India sends many slum dwellers to work simple jobs. This will be mutually beneficial to both China and India. China's production will increase in efficiency and the enormous strain on the Indian infrastructure will be partially lifted. I've heard that India has a talented workforce but China doesn't boast such a skilled set of workers. So India can open its college doors to Chinese students, especially the engineering colleges. IIT Colleges in India produce the most skillful computer workers and rank as a world-class technological university. This will be a lucrative move for Indian universities while China can sport a more skillful workforce.

STOP THE MADNESS PEOPLE!!! Don't fighit on petty matters like the one above. Don't point fingers but rather focus on solutions.

JC

July 23, 2007 11:48 PM

I misunderstood the question in my previous response...

Bruce's provoking question has been answered previously:

China boasts more wealth and the nation prominently targets its money to its biggest cities, while agricultural communities are left under-funded and neglected.

India proportionally disperses its wealth and addresses the problems of the rural areas and the big metros. Currently, India is working on providing more and cleaner water to the farm lands . Cases in pesticide poisoning and severe injury during farmwork has driven the government to provide safety equipment and encourage its uses while establishing accessible health care. Some rural children find themselves denied education so the federal government is saving money to fund education in agricultural communities.

China's method seems to be beneficial in its current state but I fear a mass rebellion will put the country through immense trials and tribulations.

As an Indian, I am very satisfactory in India's just and fair approach. Though it doesn't provide quick results, this method will be better in the long run.

Aaron

July 26, 2007 01:57 PM

True! India may not build good buildings, if you guys want to define success that way.

However, India can build good comapanies. Most of them have good returns and are getting even more global.
Most Chinese companies are state-owned and the goverment (what government!), I mean those communists pump money to them when they commit faults.
Chinese imitators and Indians innovators

jcage

July 27, 2007 01:03 PM

Just because India companies doing well for the moment in IT does not mean that all their companies are doing well. Their car industries, shipping industries, electronic industries are not competitive with the rest of the world. Are there any India products that are competitive other than IT? cars? Ship? electronic?

Even their pharmaceutical companies are only producing generic drugs which patten already expired long time ago. Nothing innovative as far the world is concerned.

Also, many India industries are profitable because they are protected by government by putting high entry barrier so no foreign companies could compete with the India ones in their home market and that would explain why India companies are only profitable inside India. However, as Eastern Europe, Latin America, Vietnam, China, Malaysia start catching up in IT outsourcing, then the profit of Indian IT will come to an end!

jcage

July 28, 2007 12:17 PM

Indian companies are only profitable because they are protected from foreign competition. Most foreign competition are exclude from the India market due to high tariff and other barrier. Also, all the India companies are big monopoly that has connection with the India government. Most of the India companies are not competitive with companies from China, Japan, Europe, USA etc.. but the exception for India IT companies.

Mojo

July 29, 2007 03:41 PM

Celestial Emperor says:
"99.99% of Chinese posters tend to be overly politically correct and go to ridiculous lengths to appease the Indians while 99.99% of Indian posters tend to be ridiculously ultra jingoistic."

Clearly, the Emperor does not include him/herself in the statistic. The likes of Medical Professor, JCage, Dragon Fire, etc. are evidently excluded too. Seems to me that chauvinistic drivel is an equal-opportunity phenomenon around here.

I ran into a couple of interesting polls that look into how individuals in various countries view each other’s nation and society.

http://www.globescan.com/news_archives/bbc06-3/index.html

http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=256

Two nuggets from the findings that contradict some of the postings I have seen:
"Interestingly, Indians themselves are the most tepid or modest in their self-estimates. While in most countries a large majority give their country a positive rating, among Indians only 47 percent give India a positive rating, but only 10 percent give it a negative rating."

The above was from the BBC poll. According to the Pew poll, the corresponding self-rating number among the Chinese is 93% positive in 2007 (up from 88% in 2005). Don’t get me wrong, I am glad the Chinese view themselves positively. China has done marvelously well in the last few decades and they have every reason to feel proud. But I keep seeing posts from some Chinese on how Indians are full of themselves. The fellow Indians I run into seem, if anything, overly pessimistic about India’s prospects. Perhaps the handful of Indians who believe in the India-the-Superpower theory are busy posting here and that’s why I never run into them in person.

The other interesting nugget involves how Indians and Chinese view each other. According to the BBC poll, the percentage of positive/negative view of Indians towards Chinese influence in the world (in 2006) is 44/15. The corresponding Chinese view towards Indians is 39/32. Incidentally, in 2004, 66% of Indians viewed Chinese influence positively.
A March 2005 publication from World Public Opinion (http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/views_on_countriesregions_bt/116.php?nid=&id=&pnt=116) states:
"The countries most concerned about the potential growth of Chinese military power are Germany (87%), Australia (79%), Japan (78%), Spain (76%), the US (75%), and Italy (74%). Interestingly, the one country in which a majority viewed increased Chinese military power positively was China’s neighbor India (56%)."

That was in 2005. I wonder what it is now after some of the recent overtly public Chinese claims on Arunachal Pradesh. For more on that, see the Economist article: http://economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9357067

Some Chinese posters here have stated they couldn’t care less what Indians think since India is too insignificant for them to bother. But the Chinese leadership itself is not so sure. They are watching US overtures towards India very keenly. As an Indian, I have very positive feelings for China and her people. Most of my Indian friends feel the same way. From the polls, it seems we are with the plurality of the folks in India. It would be enormously good for both countries to get along and cooperate –and compete- where needed. I just hope the chauvinists (always the vocal ones, unfortunately) in India and China can be kept at bay.

Aaron

August 1, 2007 01:27 AM

Jcage. Ya there will be tremendous competition that these India IT companies will face. yes what you said about the India's tough regulations may be true. It seems that you are just reading Chinese business news while I am just reading Indian business news.
However, Can you name a product that the Chinese have built (without copying) that has become a world success?
You have to admit that most Chinese business hav e a majority stake held by the governemnt.
Even though their investing more in R & D (alomost close to U.S. figures) their only advantage is cheap labour. India's only advantage in English and some cheap labour. There are only a few BRIC nations that can compete with the companies of the developed world

Aaron

August 1, 2007 01:46 AM

I just hope that by 2050 that world will be big enough for Chinese, India, US, Brazilian, Ethipioans etc... to live in peace and harmony together

jcage

August 1, 2007 02:11 PM

Aaron

China technologically is backward when compared with Western Europe (France, UK, Germany, Italy etc..), Canada, USA, Japan, South Korea and other countries so China is in catch up mode. In order for China to reach parity if ever with those above mentioned countries it requires a lot of R & D for years to come so it require to invest a lot of moneys. The amount of money (Several 100 of billions of dollars) requires and the duration to reach such as lofty to goal to catch up technologically with many advanced countries could be provided by the Chinese government so it would take many more years before China could really start producing world class product. The Chinese private industries are also investing in R & D but their capital and resources would never match with the amount of capital and resources that giant such as GE, Microsoft, Intel et al.

However, it is already seeing some result such as China has already built her own CPU (Dragon chip based on MIPS instruction), created her own OS based in Linux (Kylin http://tech.commongate.com/post/Chinese_operating_system_approved)
China is also working on her own 3G and 4G communication technology and who know if these might become world standard one day but it is an start.

USA, Europe and many other advance nations like to point their finger to China since the Chinese government is providing money for R & D to many of the SOE and private Chinese companies but they (USA, Europe and many other advance nations) also provide subside to their industries.
For example: Airbus (R & D, manufacturing) is being subsidized by different European countries. Also, USA spent a lot of money in defense that in turn provide job to a lot of American companies such as Lockheed-Martin, Boeing etc..

Glad that we can keep this civil so far.

Celestial Emperor

August 4, 2007 12:59 PM

Aaron, aka the Indian who hides behind a western name claims

"Chinese imitators and Indians innovators" (The dish calling the kettle black)

OK then name even one product in use today that owes it's origins to India or Indians. It is simply amazing how Indians love to take undeserved credit for everything and try to put others down. Hallmarks of a deeply insecure people I suppose. Just to point out this inferiority complex of Indians especially vis a vis China/Chinese, Indians claim to be the creators of martial arts and are solely responsible for the birth of Kung Fu in China. What next Indians? Are you going to claim that China was originally a part of India? LOL!!

PS Aaron, no point in denying you're Indian by assuming a western alais. Your comments have a typical Indian touch i.e. full of jingoistic self-praise.

abner

August 5, 2007 04:31 PM

Simple: india is a democracy while china authouritarian. For example if India wants to build a dam like china three gorges dam there would have to answer to enviromentalists, the locals being displaced, local city planners, NGO, provide housing for the displaced, the protest.....THE LIST GOES ON. In china with a flick of a pen the dam is built, no matter the cost of people, enviroment or wathever,not to forget that u cannot not protest in china

Celestial Emperor

August 6, 2007 10:20 AM

Yeah right abner (another Indian hiding behind a western name)

Despite being a democracy India can't rid itself of the oppressive caste system which is the single most detrimental factor that has held India back. It doesn't matter how many excuses you Indians can cook up as to why India can't match China. Your favourite being "India can't make progress as fast as China because India is a democracy and has to take the consent of the people first". Yeah right as if the brahmin dominated Indian govt. gives a red cent about what the lower castes want.

Bottomline is India will never match China, you Indians covertly admit to that through your anti-China whining and moaning.

Alpha

August 17, 2007 09:29 AM

The problem of india is not democracy. Democracy is the only thing right about it . Indis problems are its inequality and cast system . the sad thing is that the rich upper middle class indians dont recognize it at all . they are selfish to the core . they see the poverty of the other half as their (poor) problem . Westerners who visit india can realise this. Buit unfortunately very few indians

Chengliang

August 22, 2007 10:48 AM

I am a Chinese, I'd just started my company a week ago. Everyday I spend 10 hours in working, one or two hours on internet to know what happen in the crazy world, and six hour to learn different kind of knowledge and skill, only four or five hours in sleeping. A lot of Chinese young man spend thier days just like me. And millions of Chinese worker work longer than 12 hour to build the country. We never expect the help from the goverment, we have to rely on ourself.

Ashwin Gunjal

September 14, 2007 09:21 AM

Bruce,

My straightforward outlook, to the query, “China can build things. Why can’t India?” is that, “Why not, INDIA CAN, certainly…"

Ignoring the corrupt political facts of India, it can definitely build things better than China. It is not wise to underestimate India’s potential. I have arrived at this conclusion after comparing Indian laborers with Chinese laborers. I own a packaging industry that provides best-in-class total packaging solutions with its extensive domain expertise and technology specialization, to a pool of premiere multinational global clientele. Formerly, I had employed a few Chinese workers in my organization to build a sense of competition amongst my workers, hoping that it would increase productivity in my enterprise. Initially I tested the Chinese workers ability with the Indian workers of the same age groups, experience, skill and build. On comparing their performance in analogous conditions I found that the Chinese had greater stamina compared to the Indian laborers. Besides, the Chinese were enthusiastic on working during overtime hours but the Indian workers would defy the overtime working hours. Later the quality of work was also gradually deteriorated when the Chinese would work alone during overtime hours.

Consequently I realized that it was difficult for the Chinese workers to understand the importance of quality, though their stamina levels were high. It is not sensible enough to produce defective products which will carry a negative value. India can consistently build all that China can or better than China.

Thank you,

Ashwin Gunjal

STOPDRIVING SUV

September 23, 2007 08:01 AM

Hello I am Sighn,

We Indian are obsess with showing off. We like to claim that our country is the richest and best in ten years. So in 2010 India will be the best. We all know that in 2010 we will still be a third world country so we like to congratluate ourself and proclaimt hat we will e the best in 2020. We have a billion people and we can only mustard one silver medal at the olympics. However we like to take full credit for having the most ridiculous records like having the world' longest nails or crawling backwards for 12 days.

We are a great and powerful country that let the UK pimp us for centuries, because we are a peaceful nation.

Have you visited India? Our cities and roads are so modernize.

We are the best and smartest people in the world!

hum

September 27, 2007 06:51 PM

Sighn,
dude your talking bull and i believe you know that because you know that india will have problems even if its the year of 3000
so it will be better if you just keep you mouth zip!!

Dallas

October 8, 2007 02:43 PM

Well all I can say from the new India that is the current young generation which will take it far..beyond what our current global audience can percieve..We have our problems...they are opportunities...we have the will and the strength in our minds..we are fearless and will persevere...we have a vision of a prosperous india and Yes we will brag each and every of our outrageously small achievements only if to encourage and motivate our countrymen...show them what else can be achieved...More bigger and better things....these are small pats on our back and is a part our confidence building system..fake it till you make it...YES we will set outrageous goals for ourselves which we will achieve..We will learn from others and improve...thats a promise..The global audience can observe, ridicule or participate...we are the new INDIA..We WILL cause we CAN and we WILL cause we believe...Time to get to work..

abhinav sharma

October 9, 2007 07:55 AM

Yes it is right that india is behind china in growth comparison.....but you have to consider the thing that what india has achieved in the circumstance no country even china cant achieve such success.india is a not only a democratic country but such a country where people hav now total freedom to express themselves individually even in such a culturally diverse structure.
what india has achieved is because of its people not because of the government because here govt cant implement decisions instantly.here u can lament the political will of the govt.bt these thing doesnt affect the common people.its obvious that india is very much poor but it is the second most populous country and even china has very much unequality in its society..one thing is that china is a communist country and here everything is not done according to people`s will.it can be good for china at present but in the long run the inclusive growth shown by india will be succed.

menge

October 10, 2007 12:06 PM

LOL. Let me tell you guys something. Nowadays you can see a lot of Indian guys in Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou....But seldom can you see any Chinese (recent immigrants) in any Indian city. People obviously have their preference...

lenovo

October 11, 2007 05:43 PM

The indian democrazy system is just a joke. In most cases, the China's government actions are reflecting 99% Chinese's willings. Come to visit China and see the difference.

ROX rising

October 12, 2007 03:09 PM

Lenovo (the previous poster) is obviousely an indian in disguise. Making up some nonsense and blame it on the chinese. How original.

We chinese know the limitation of our government. And it hasn't stopped us.

The indians have a democracy, which has turned into their favorite excuse. Ironic, isn't it?

DecisiveThinking

October 14, 2007 07:47 PM

Its obvious which country is ahead in terms of economic development.India should learn from its East Asian neighbour.Being defensive on the Indian side and boastful on the Chinese side is not going to help anybody.Both countries are giants with respective advantages and disadvantage.They should focus on gaining from each others strengths and learning from each other's weaknesses.

Deepak

October 28, 2007 12:55 AM

india is suffering with corruption.but there is improvement in econmic growth.in 2040 india will hold 3rd place in economy.

noface

October 30, 2007 12:13 AM

Don't discount the importance of weather and landforms in building infrastructure in India. You try building stuff somewhere where it's dry 11 months out of the year and there's 30 inches of rain in the other month, we'll see how well you do.

Celestial

October 30, 2007 11:45 AM

Dont forget Vietnam is just behind India in terms of economy GDP growth. The differences now is 0.2%!!

guy3d

October 30, 2007 05:08 PM

The chinese government are made up of chinese people. Indian government are made up of Indian people. To blame a country's government is to put it's people at fault. There is no separation between a country's government and its people.

If a country's government failed in execution..then their people will suffer. Give credit where credit is due and point out weeknesses when they are obvious. Please don't use the government excuse for China's rapid developement and India's slow growth..because it is so obvious that each country's government is made of its own people..

Lan Chiao

January 9, 2008 05:52 AM

Indian only talk big but physical development speaks better. the whole blog indian are claiming they are the best. let them continue to dream and they will reamin as where they are today in the next 100 years

Lan Chiao

January 14, 2008 05:41 AM

Please stop dreaming, Indians. Out of the 1.2 billion population India still cannot win a single gold in the Olympics. What more can the world expect from you Indian guys except keep dreaming, arguing and self praising in this blog, while others are working really hard to widen and widen again the gap between them and you. Wake up and go back to work, you are far behind now!!!

John Wayne

January 28, 2008 08:28 PM

Sure Indians can build. They build mountains of hype, then build a rickshaw on four wheels called the tata nano then again add more hype to it.

Some Indian fool named Rockstar commented above saying that China has 75% illiterate and poor people. He says starvation and beggary are rampant in China and those who are employed work in sweatshops. Rockstar's claims are more reflective of India's current circumstances than they are of China.

A word of advice to Rockstar and other Indians who intoxicate themselves with conceit driven by unsubstanciated hyperbole. For any nation to be great as in superpower, that nation must have the courage to face facts and not hide behind false fantasies while throwing slanderous accusations at others just for the sake of making oneself feel good. If this is India's qualitative edge (i.e. b.s.-ing and empty boasts) over China that Indians keep touting about then I regret to inform you that India will always remain a sorry excuse for a country.

SSM

February 23, 2008 06:18 AM

There is a lot of hype about development in India. There is no such thing as a free lunch -- a couple of years of good growth in a period of high world growth does not mean anything. There is no option but to slog it out to achieve the goal of a better standard of living for all who live in this country --- and each person has to participate in the effort.
Comparison with other countries is pointless.

AJ

April 24, 2008 01:53 AM

World's 50 Most Innovative Companies:
-------------------------------------
Chinese: 0
Indian: 2
(#6 - Tata Motors
(#19 - Reliance)


Forbes top 10 World's Richest (2008):
-------------------------------------
Chinese: 0
Indian: 4
(#4 - Lakshmi Mittal)
(#5 - Mukesh Ambani)
(#6 - Anil Ambani)
(#8 - KP Singh)

link for 50 most innovative:
http://bwnt.businessweek.com/interactive_reports/innovative_companies/

link for Forbes top 10:
http://www.forbes.com/2008/03/05/richest-people-billionaires-billionaires08-cx_lk_0305billie_land.html

Katie Leung

April 24, 2008 08:25 AM

Alright


http://blogs.businessweek.com/innovate/NussbaumOnDesign/archives/2008/04/top_20_asian_pi.html

shruti

May 7, 2008 12:46 AM

What a comparison!!!!! how can one imagine to compare India and China when there is so much different in these two countries. I dont appreciate India as well i dont criticize China too. Indian democracy is not the only reason which has stopped India. There are few more reasons. Really i want to know how many times china has faced border issues, how many times china has war with its neighbouring....can chinese people stand against their governments decision....no no no...china doesnt have any border dispute caused by other countries.whereas India is suffering that too. There was a time when india, pakistan and bangladesh was one but now situation has changed.. and we can see it clearly majority of people from these two countries are fleeing to india not only these even from nepal.. when we talk infrastructure, poverty level, slums, beggars...look for the reasons too. People living in slums are not only indians, there are few indians who come from countryside in search of a living but majority of people are refugess who has come to india from the neighbouring countries. They all have to be live their life. Peasants are killing themselves due to debts, no rain but at the same time govt has excused all the debts for the peasants in few states... everything is not only done by govt. few things depend on people too...what if someone dont want to have a hi fi life...we can see indian villages are flourishing too..
coming to china...it doesnt have border issues...no war for the border...hardly any refugees from neighbouring countries...china has got very big land area...china infrastructure is really developed but if a person in countryside needs kidney transplantation and cant afford the capital then his son sells himself as a slave to someone rich who can bear this medical cost...this is not a scene in india..no religion in china, a good thing. On the other hav=nd we have so many religions in india and we cant hurt anybody just by making rules. What if infrastructure is developed how much people has developed themselves...if a person dont know mandarin cant survive without a interpreter...at least noone suffers this in india. Comparing india and china is totally wrong.

HAHAIndia

May 7, 2008 07:33 PM

Pfft India will never truly catch up to China cause the Indian government can't even control its own population. As far as building things goes, most of the builders in India are poor, way below the typical poor indian too lol and aren't even trained properly. Majority of Indians are still living in fairy tale land trying actually thinking that they are just as advance as china if not more advance. Oh to you Indians that say china forces its people to do hard labor, well so does India lol. If the poor people of india miss out on job opportunities they can't feed their families, and end up dead. Indian government is full of it. Only reason Indians around the world support India is because they get to capitalize on poor labor. Many abroad Indian families have investments in India and wouldn't give a s*** about what the hundreds of millions of indians go thru everyday. This is coming from an Indian btw.

Dhiraj

May 18, 2008 08:54 AM

YES CHINA HAS MADE A AMAZING PROGRESS IN INFRASTRUCTURE AND I PERSONALLY CONGRATULATE CHINA.

BUT

(A) AS EVERY ONE KNOWS THE CHALLANGES IN INDIA

- CULTURE DIVERSIFICATION IN PEOPLES
- 25 LANGUAGES AND EQUAL RELIGIONS
- BORDER DISPUTES WITH NEIGHBOURING
COUNTRIES
- EXISTENCE OF REFUGEES..AS SO ON


(B) OTHERSIDE FULLY INDEPENDENCE

- FULLY DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY
- FULL LIBERTY TO THE PRESS
- FULL RIGHT TO THE PEOPLE TO CONVEY THEIR CONCERNS/THOUGHTS EVEN AGINAST GOVERMENT!!
- EVERY BODY IS EQUAL

NOW THAT'S MAKE REALLY SENSE OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN INDIA 'AND' CHINA,

CAN CHINA ANTICIPATE AND MEASURE THEIR THE GROWTH WITH (A) & (B) ...


HERE I PERSONALLY SALUTE INDIA, ITS PEOPLE .. SOON WE WILL BECOME A ONE OF THE FASTEST
ECONOMY IN THE WORLD..

Karan

May 19, 2008 02:32 PM

I have live in China and India.

On the surface and even a few layers below that, comparative parameters bases on quality of life, ease of business, service levels, infrastructure that you can get in say Shanghai- Pudong, Beijing, Shenzen etc the comparison with Indian urban centres is ludicrous. Digging a little deeper, going into Chinese rural areas and having a personal urge to seek the darkness side of communist China; would probably answers to the seeker. Do you want to go there? That’s a personal choice?

Hong Kong was doomed after 1997, the doomsday sayer said. The Chinese rise to the occasion and now with an amazing regularity.

India is free. Is it?

The pervasiveness of substandard processes in India is now entrenched into the psyche. Many Indians believe their processes are not far off the mark; there is only a little catching up to do. In fact quips of process comparisons in the New Delhi cocktail circuit would get you a sharp jingoistic wrap on the wrist. I can do with the shoddy airports, but I can’t do with the fact that an immigration officer can beckon a relative/friend to the front of the line and get away with it.

“There must be a way around” syndrome is the root cause, which fuels corruption and the inefficiencies; there is always another “backdoor” to be discovered. Why? Would be a socio-cultural, cause-analysis exercise. The incredible sexual repression even among the well-heeled Indian men is also one such window. Centuries of inter-caste communication protocols are not easily blurred. This “protocol” positions self-interest beyond national interest.

The transparent divulgence of power closer to the people is the singular achievement happening in India. The synergies unleashed cannot be duplicated by the Chinese model in the long run. The “synergy” as of now is pretty latent, but there is an unmistakable buzz among India’s youth to reach out. Youngsters with a dream are the most powerful idea and that will change India and the world.


somebody

May 27, 2008 02:07 PM

India is far behind many countries/societies. The reasons are probably far more complex and buried in 3000 years of history.
It would be better to just focus on how we can improve things.
Chinese have made good progress recently, good for them!

Wahaha

June 12, 2008 04:52 PM


West democracy is built on wealth and good education.

A huge flaw of democracy is its preventing government from making long term commitment and long term plans for economic development, which is the backbone of economic planing in China.

Without money, the only thing democracy can accomplish is chaos and suffocating economy, because it "encourages" being greedy and not respecting the right of other people.

If you dont believe, look at the situations of poor communities in United States, which is at least 20 times richer than poor villiges in India and China ?

What is the advantage of freedom when you know that the freedom cant solve the problem ?

He

June 15, 2008 04:24 AM

Just cut the crap and do the work. Work at developing your own country and thwart the attempts by the USA to use its power and economy to have its own way in the world at each and every other nation's expense.

Yew HC

July 14, 2008 11:49 AM

I think Indian has a very tame culture, when British came to India there were no Intensive fight Between India and British but In China there were 3 major Wars - There were Opium Wars. British did not 100% conquered China, after the war British forced The Queen from Qing Dynasty sign the Unfair treaty, ceded Hong Kong to British amd Under British Administration for almost 150 years.

British did not entirely conquered China like India. Chinese has much stronger culture than India, the Chinese patriotic is much stronger than India. In China, there is one language can manage to Unite 1.4 Billion population. In India, there are more than 10 Official languages, and the English-the external language become the official language of India.

I am South East Aisan Chinese-Oversea Chinese and now worked in Dubai and I can tell that Indian Civilian knew how their democracy rights, Just Due to these rights, the Productivity is not as high as the Chinese Labour in Dubai. No doubt the Chinese workers pay is 2 time higher than Indian workers.

If we don't monitor Indian workers closely, there will be a very low productivity.

Indian supervisors and their workers did not communicate effectively, my Indian supervisors told me that there are too many Languages in India. There are many tribes too. Even as at today there are clear "Khas For Indian" The darker and the lower class.

Indian people are too tame, and the democracy system slow down the country development. A lot of thing just cannot depend on the people's decision and go for the development. There are always negative ideas. In democracy country, if there are certain negative voices, the development plan must be cancelled.

Another good example is Singapore, Singapore was kicked out by the Malaysian Federation Government in 1965. In 9 September 1965, Singapore declared Independent from Malaysia. By that time Frist Prime Minister Mr Lee Kuan Yew cried and gave speech in the TV broadcasting, "what we are going to do with 2 million population" we have no natural resources" They bought water from Malaysia. At the beginning, Singapore Government had employed many western expatriate and experts for the evaluation for Singapore development, almost all of them shaking head and give advice to Singapore Government that Singapore is not going to survive because they have no resources at all.

The Island itself only measured from East to west 42KM and from North to South only 27km. They have only one advantages, they have one deep seaport.

Singapore Government make use of itself deep port only and start from there, Singaporean built their nation and They are now one of the richest nation in the world.

Many policy and development evaluate by the Government, if the Government think that the development benefits people, they will do it regardless there are negative voices.

India has so much resources and has big market. India should world No 1 or No 2.
India has thousands years old culture.

India can make it. If China to follow the western democracy, China may torn down into pieces, Tibet, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Xin Jiang, Inner Mongolia all will fight for Independent.

Indian Government is too tame as well. They will have to explain deeply to the people the advantages and disadvantages of the development and finally what the decision is.

In the 19s century when the Industrilaised Revolution happaned in Europe, there are mass environmental pollution as well. All development must go thru this stages, or else the country will move forward very slowly.

Malaysia

July 20, 2008 05:54 PM

China should just continue building there worthless and empty bridges, building etc..

and india should do more creative trend setting and mind-full innovations in their head so that when in nirvana they may build a better heaven for all of us (i mean life after death) thank you my indian brother for all your innovation for a better heaven

yasin malik

July 21, 2008 08:23 PM

"China should just continue building there worthless and empty bridges, building etc..
and india should do more creative trend setting and mind-full innovations in their head so that when in nirvana they may build a better heaven for all of us (i mean life after death) thank you my indian brother for all your innovation for a better heaven"

Tell me one thing you Indians, if India is really that much of a spiritual haven and material wealth means nothing to you then why the hell all you Indians are migrating to other countries in ever increasing droves in search of a better standard of living. Why the hell are you Indians so desperate to leave India like you want to get the hell out of hell on earth.

achimus

July 22, 2008 12:46 AM

@Yew HC

I guess you dont know enough about India then. India's history for the last 1200 year is a history intense resistance against foregin agression. It is something our pseudu secularist goverment dont want to discuss or acknowledge. The last 300 years have seen atleast 6 battles were we have lost over hundred thousand soilders in an 8 hour battles.

We have suffered.

Please gauge our courage by the fact that ours is the oldest religious and cultural tradition.

Nobody kneels infront of Amon, Ra, Zeus,
Apollo or the pagan/nordic gods and the American Indian gods. But Shiva survived in out heart.

For hundred of years our women - wivies,mothers,daughters and sisters did not have breast because the invaders would cut them.

We have had to suffer Nanjing every year for last 1200 years.

Today, We stand as a united force. We have a vision and hope for our children. We move ahead with renewed vigour and pride.

And, It is unlikely that our pride will every collide with yours.

Nations come and go but civilisations live for ever.

micheal

July 28, 2008 10:55 PM

@Malaysia
As a Malaysian-Indian u should have know better, just look at Samy Vellu. That fellow is an Indian and he was supposed to look after the Indian welfare instead he ignored the welfare of the Indians. I m a Malaysia Chinese btw I have seen some poor Indians that are being forced to convert to Islam or deny entry into some university despite having excellent exam results went to Chinese MCA party knell and cry in front of the party leader. These ppl rather ask the Chinese to help than relying on their own party to help. Can you ppl even imaging such a thing happening in the society. We Malaysian-Chinese always say, 1 Samy Vellu can cause such a misery to the Malaysian-Indian try and imagine there are 10 Samly Vellu in India.

There are millions of Indians residing in Singapore, HK, Taiwan and even China. These ppl can get along pretty well with the orients Chinese, deep down inside I really dun know how they feel. But 1 thing for sure is if you ask them to abandon their current citizenship or PR and go back India to live, I can guarantee you majority will tell you to go fly kite.

For those self-praising and china-basher Indians here, you need to realized your attitude is the one thing that prohibits you from fully realizing your potential. It also will distant yourselves from a lot of other people not just Chinese but Orientals as a whole, the west, countries that are culturally close to India like Nepal, Sri Lanka and Pakistan basically everyone.

Indians you people really need to wake up. God only help those who help them selves. And here I give you a Chinese proverb: “Good Medicine is bitter, Good advice is never sweet”

infrastructure

August 1, 2008 04:53 AM

Generally East Asian cities(Tokyo,HK,Seoul,Taipei,Shanghai) dominate whole asia in almost all aspects; economy,languages,infrastructure,modernity,fashion,futurism,sports,technology,luxury stuffs,purchasing power,etc. Please don't compare India(South Asia) with those cities, totally not in the same league.

Prof. R B Easwaran

August 26, 2008 01:07 AM

We forget that from the time of ancient Greeks to until about 4-5 hundred years ago, nations of the world wanted to come to India, because we were the most prosperous nation, known for its spices and gold and its sheer spiritual magic. This prosperity, helped ofcourse by a complete lack of unity within India, led to everyone from Alexander to the Muslim kings of Afghanistan and Middle East, then the Portugese, French and British to come and rule this country.
What makes a nation developed is not so much economic figures like GDP and per capita income, but rather the mindset of the citizens of the country. If India wants to be a developed nation, first its citizens MUST think they are a developed nation and show behaviors to reflect that status. In my travels around the world, I have seen that even a taxi driver in a small country like Bahrain stops at a traffic signal not because he knows that there is a surveillance system that will punish him if he didn't, but more because he BELIEVES he has to obey the traffic rules. The best part is that this taxi driver may happen to be an Indian; bring the same guy to India and he thinks he doesn't have to obey any laws and will flout it with gay abandon. I have, during my travels to many advanced countries, noticed that the people BELIEVED they had to obey laws, pay taxes, keep the city and homes clean. In India the number of people who BELIEVE thus are few. That is the big difference. If there is no policeman at a signal, the average Indian doesn't believe he has to stop when the signal goes red; he cleans his house and dumps the dirt onto the road and doesn't believe that he has anything to contribute to keeping the road clean; they spit everywhere and urinate openly on roadsides, and don't think this is uncivilized and could harm others' health. All this happens because we DONOT value our freedom and have taken it for granted. When Singapore became free, the people had a Social Contract with the government of the day, wherein they agreed to subjugate their freedom in some ways for the betterment of the nation. I donot believe that India should aim to become either a China, or USA or Britain or Singapore. We need to get a few things right within our country to become an advanced nation:
a. Firstly, every citizen should BELIEVE in obeying laws, in being disciplined, in paying taxes, in keeping homes and cities clean, and not do all that because he will be punished otherwise
b. Instead of aping either usA or China we should learn the best from the world; we can learn how to run a corruption-free government from countries like Finland and Sweden; learn entrepreneurship and innovative spirit from Americans; learn quality and work culture from the Japanese; learn to respect our freedom from Singaporeans; learn the productve spirit of the chinese (despite living in an autocratic country; learn discipline from the British
c.Our politicians should come to power with a spirit of service and not treat it as another profession to make money
d. We don't need more laws, but we need to enforce laws uniformly and without any exemption to anyone however high and mighty they may be
Unless all this happens India WILL NEVER be an advanced country. Yes, in the coming years there will be more people owning Rolls Royces, more millionnaires, more people with latest gadgets in their hands, our GDP will grow; but, all this will not make us an advanced country, unless the basic MINDSET of the Indian changes (to be a law-abiding, disciplined, honest citizen who believes he belongs to a developed nation), these very same gadgets in the hands of an indisciplined citizenry can become weapons of mass destruction and destroy the basic sovereign framework of India.
Can this happen? Definitely, if there is a national will. Will it happen? As I look around, I see a citizenry that is growing in indiscipline, intolerance, impatience and thanks to some stupid politicians who are dividng this nation more and more on communal, casteist and religeous lines, pessimism overtakes my optimism. All I can say is that India will take at lest another 50-100 years to reach anywhere near some of the advanced countries of the world.

patentneer

November 28, 2008 02:06 PM

# 1. We MUST be worshipfully gratefull for "Anu Shatki" idea of the vedas, worked on by the Germans, and mastered by the democratic Americans. Since westerners including US don't horde knowledge ... with the rest of the world getting nukes since the US ... THE GREATEST MIRACLE OF PEACE DIVIDEND paid out.

Nukes have given everlasting peace to major powers, and India is snappping at the tablecoth, not yet seatd at the table.

# 2. Therefore, the alluring clients and marketplace of both India/China, will be 'credit-groomed' by the west .. and East ... like Korea, Taiwan, Japan, Singapore etc.

# 3. Today's battle's are fought in the boardroom, through business and commerce ... if the most 'value-able' China, India, Japan, Pak & Bangla markets put up a united biz front ... ha ... the west's biz 'agents' like Korea, Taiwan, Japan, Singapore etc. will be put in their place.

# 4. Since the French revolution specially, and Internet nowadays ... 'lead' times in tech., science and industry ... are down to couple of yrs.
Setting up factories, machines, ... tech. itself is computer driven ... with modelling and simulation ...

# 5. This whole India-China debate is bogus because that arc's clientele is too precious for the world to blow it.

We won't let you ... hehe

Dr Satya

December 1, 2008 12:15 AM

Let's be real! Even though I am an Indian, I will call a spade 'a spade'. We the indian people need a mind cleansing first in order to achieve any real national advancement. How come a country with 1.2 Billion people(almost 4 times more populous than the united states) is still not a clean, well housed, well policed, well governed nation? Corruption is running wild from the streets to the state representatives and legislators. Everyone seems to be complacent and let corruption and violation of laws go wild with total impunity. We are too busy being corrupt at work, at play, and even with officials. Corruption has gotten so bad that there are gangs of women armed with sticks. Yes, they are armed with sticks and have used them on men with their own form of vigilanty justice. How bad can a country be when its women now take on their corrupt men?

Yes, there are a few Indians that make it to the forbes list of richest people. Also there are Indian companies making the most innovative list but this does not result in any real advancement in the country since we still have dirty streets, poor roads, beggars everywhere, shanty towns everywhere, no real efficient airports, no portable water in most of country. We still cannot provide our people with the comforts and services of a modern soceity. You have a few millionares driving bentleys when the majority of the people are either begging or living in shanty towns.

Let's just look at the recent olympics. Why should India with 1.2 Billion people not even get 1 gold medal in any of the numerous olympic events when a country as small as Jamaica can pull more than 2 golds? How come there are beggars everywhere on the streets, cows and elephants doing there business everywhere? Why are roads are either poorly built or out of repair almost anywhere you go? Why do I have to bribe someone for my child to go to my school of choice. Why is the police system so ineffective? Why are the banks so corrupt in their lending practices? Why are some casts treated with such high regard and other casts with total disdain? Why is there such a lack of planning and good design in the construction of our nation's homes, roads, portable water systems, drainage systems, shops, and airports? All these questions can be answered when we look at the very fabric of India. We do not obey rules, we do not care to design, plan and execute, and we do not want to adopt the behaviors that will allow us to be an advanced society.

How come we a country of 1.2 Billion cannot even qualify yet win in these World Cup soccer games when countries with populations of less than 2 million people are winning games in the world cup soccer games? How come we still oppress the weakest amongst us? How come we still adore rats or other vermin regardless of our level of education? My friends we have a long way to go as a country and we cannot even get close to comparing ourselves with China. Deal with it guys, we need to work real hard together. We should learn from China and get our act together. We as a people will continue to be lagging in world advancements if our attitude does not change! Let me be optimistic here and state that maybe tata would inspire us to change our ways.

ANDREW CUNNINGHAM

December 21, 2008 01:20 PM

Interesting debate India vs China. Chinese contributors to this blog using Western Anglo Saxon names to add crediility to their Chinese ranting and raving anti indian and negatives re India. USA,UK and Europe are significantly impressed with India progression. Rightly so. India is a nuclear and military superpower, 8th largest industrialised country, has a significant and admirable Space programme, a IT hub for the world's organisation, a huge manufacturing base, second largest film industry in the world, a major investor and acquiring of western companies like Jaguar and Mittel Steel.

Thus Indias neighbours like China see India as a real threat to its aspirations and thus feel insecure and have a certain inferiority complex that this uppty neighbour dare to confront a giant neighbour. The reality is India is a rope and a noose around China's neck. There is nothing China can do but with Chinese bloggers using Western Anglo Saxon names using imaginary and fictional source/data/statistic/reference to make negative comments. Unfortunately, for the Chinese, they cannot stop India no matter how much ranting and ravings about poverty, underdevelopment, unemployment or for that matter IQ levels. India is indeed a rope and a noose around the sweating Chinese necks. :)

Dilip kumar

February 7, 2009 05:15 AM

Briefly, where there is commitment, good leadership and especially where there is NO Politics in things like DEVELOPMENT those countries should develop like anythinng but unfortunately india lacks in all the 3 especially the last One i.e Politics
Religion, Caste and Politics are the 3 that rule INDIA. Every thing is Attached to Religion or caste. We can't see any where Associations with CASTES and RELIGIONS. Ofcouse , india is a Traditional or ORTHODOX country but these things should be avoided when coming to development

some of the example

1. "being a minority they buldozed my house"------- is it have a meaning?
2. " being a lowclass they refused to give me the JOB"?

wat r all these

O god ........... Save India


edsperience.vox.com

July 1, 2009 02:05 AM

With all of china's 'greatness', why, pray tell, when both countries globalised, one supplied the brains whilst the other the brawn? The 'shoddy' nature of visual india might just appear 'shoddy' to eyes that profit little from the mind. And another important point is that China has been a nation-state for more than 2000 years whilst India has been one for about 60 years. In that is both its strength and weakness. But in the long run, it will be the former as opposed to the latter.

edsperience.vox.com

July 1, 2009 02:10 AM

I'd agree with 'Andrew Cunningham'. The position of Indians in predominantly chinese states in asia reflects how china might feel towards india. In a nutshell, they are culturally and populationally kept down so as to let the chinese get ahead after a decade or two. I suppose this is to circumvent the intellectual deficiencies amongst the chinese that is created due to their oppressive history that just about kills intellectual and creative vibrancy. Hence, they can only get ahead by discrimination and numbers.

nike air yeezy

April 13, 2010 04:52 AM

I love blog, because any person can blog in their own feelings and to share things with. But i suppose the blog could only be improved if you posted more often.

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BusinessWeek’s team of Asia reporters brings you the latest insights on business, politics, technology and culture from some of the world’s biggest and fastest-growing economies. Eye on Asia’s bloggers include Asia regional editor Bruce Einhorn, Tokyo reporter Ian Rowley, Korea bureau chief Moon Ihlwan, Asia News Editor and China Bureau Chief. Dexter Roberts, and Hong Kong-based Asia correspondent Frederik Balfour.

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