China tops India again

Posted by: Bruce Einhorn on July 18, 2006

China’s science and engineering community has been distracted the past few months by a series of scandals involving accusations of fraud and plagiarism. But the incidents, however embarrassing, don’t seem to be slowing the rush of U.S. companies expanding their R&D operations in the country. For big multinationals, China’s low-cost talent pool, government support and huge market are what matter, and so companies are willing to invest in knowledge workers even with what could be a greater risk of wrongdoing. The latest example: last week Ruey Bin Kao, president of Motorola China, said that the U.S. telecom giant is adding another 1,000 R&D workers in China this year. (Here’s the story from the Xinhua website.) In other words, by yearend Motorola will employ 50% more R&D staff in China than a year ago.

China’s progress is certainly making some people nervous. For some years now, many Indians have taken solace from the idea that China may be ahead in manufacturing, but can’t compare to India when it comes to R&D. Or, as Sunil Jain writes in India’s Business Standard, “Tradition has it that while China is the factory of the world, India is going to be the laboratory of the world.” But, Jain adds, a top science body in India, the Scientific Advisory Council, last week caused jitters among Indians after assessing a recent U.S. military report comparing the research output of scientists in China, India and other developing countries. Not only was India behind China in number of papers published, Jain notes, but far more Chinese research papers are landing in top Western journals. More worrisome still for the Indians – and encouraging for the Chinese – is the likelihood that the trend is going to continue: Jain writes that the World Bank’s “Knowledge Index,” a ranking that looks at a country’s scientific fundamentals including Internet and PC usage, patents, and IT adoption by local companies, also skews heavily toward China. In 1995 China scored 3.03 and now scores 4.21, he writes, but India has gone in the other direction, scoring 2.76 11 years ago and just 2.61 today. With scores like that, China can afford to suffer its share of embarrassing science scandals.

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Reader Comments

medical professor

August 3, 2006 06:42 PM

Thanks for showing the fact. It's absolutely ridiculous for the American and indian press to keep publishing non-sense like "china is the factory of the world and india is the laboratory of the world." This kind of fabricated rumor, which wildly spread in the US and india, has to stop. It's funny to see most people in America only attribute china's rapid economic ascent to solely cheap labor and totally ignore and intentionally not want to acknowledge Chinese people's intelligence. It's time to cut all the non-sense about cheap labor and acknowledge the Chinese people on ivy-league campuses and major academic institutions. We are intelligent, creative and innovative. We talk the talk and walk the walk.

Aurita

August 4, 2006 02:11 AM

Its quite in place for Indian intellectuals to live in a land of illusion, where India is poor but proud, where huge portions of its population lives in penury but its dazzling intelligence is illuminating the world. While of this is true, to bask in such ideas is nothing short of ridiculous. China is progressive in every way and if its making some mistakes along the way, its also showing a great deal of character in its relentless focus on nationalism, and progress with independent thinking on what that should be - most important its trying to do the best for its people. I agree that China does not conform to the "liberal" world's notion of democracy but with the kind of phased approach its taking to its progress, I think its foolish in the extreme to either underestimate, compare or denigrate China's achievements.

If India needs to progress, it has to do so on its own against its own yardstick. This will take time given the baggage of corruption, poverty, monolithic bureaucracy that it has, but with the right focus it can achieve much. Spending time pulling down another country is counter productive.

Vineet Chandran

August 4, 2006 05:35 AM

As of now China is unambiguously ahead of India, no doubts about it, but its my strong conviction grounded on solid facts that in a couple of decades thigs are going to turn upside down owing to two fundamental reasons.Firstly India is going to really leverage its demographic advantage over China which is rapidly ageing.Those in the age group of 15-25,that is about 65% of India,are going to mature into leaders in their respective fields, sadly though for China they wouldnt have much young people then to sustain the momentum.Secondly the rewards for a strong democratic system is only waiting to materialise for India ,because after persisting agonisingly for decades with democratic institutions a strong Indian middle class which has just started to grow will ensure that the Indian Leadership delivers on the development agenda. On the contrary China with its repressive regime will witness a collect outburst of anger and disenchantment resulting from decades of suppression. Sooner or later the people of China will call this great socialistic bluff.When that happens expect turmoil and disintegration.

Jim Webb

August 4, 2006 09:46 AM

I do not know why so many Indians take comfort in such hype that India will have more young people than China while 'China will grow old before it gets rich'. I think it was all started by a study released by a German bank some 2-3 years back. Many take this as truth, hook, line and sinker. What is the use of having a greater population growth if the youth are badly educated and couldn't find jobs in their sort of environment. Besides it means more mouth to feed and more depletion of resouces which could otherwise be allocated to wealth production. Use some common sense instead of sounding like a broken record, pushing this tired hype around.

Mitchell

August 4, 2006 12:54 PM

Many indians still believe the more is better, in particular in thier population. There is limit on that. The mothers were encourged to have more kids in 1950 and 1960's. Quickkly Chinese earn that population outgrow the produciton for the basic needs, and it started implementaiton of the family planning. Today, there are still about 4 million college graduates that entering inot job market, and government are facing tremenous pressure to providing jobs fo the well-educate young work force. It could be worse if it let go without any family planning.

I hope that our Indina friends be realistic and independet in their thinking what path best suit them. In 10-20 years, we will be able to see the impact. Just to have more young workforce is not solution.

medical professor

August 4, 2006 03:45 PM

Again, some indians are so ready to self promote shamelessly by spending time to pull down other country with groundless information, while ignoring their own issues. This kind of narcissistic, delusional behavioral disorder should be despised and censured without mercy. Good luck in isolating your strong neighboring country, and cornering yourself. Everyone else will see through your disgusting, insecure true self and shun away from those people who take comfort in fabricating absurd prediction of social unrest in china. The most repressive regime in the world is the caste system in india, so stop calling yourself democratic society. You don't even know what democracy means. Why don't you go ahead and predict your own social outburst of anger and disenchantment resulting from decades of suppression, and expect turmoil and disintegration of your own country?!

Andy

August 4, 2006 06:28 PM

I couldn't agree more with Jim Webb. India just doesn't have the resources to accomodate the the new baby boom. What good is a new billion young but uneducated people? They will only end up as social problems. It is time for Indians to be a responsible stake holders in the future of the world. They need to realize that the world can't afford the wild baby boom like the one in India.

eggs

August 5, 2006 03:20 AM

I dont think anyone in India, today, disagrees with the point that our huge population is more a problem, than a solution.

Till a few years ago, before she became the home of the world's call-centers, India was a third world country. Guess what - today, she still is; and will be for a few more years. The problems of poverty, unemployment, and all the other 'nasties' associated with being a 3rd world country, along with the culture-specific problems of India will not disappear overnight just because we have a couple of companies listed on the NASDAQ. Anyone who thinks otherwise should leave the funny cigarettes alone. Its a long journey which, as the Chinese say, begins with the first step.

It could take a generation, or it could take 2 generations; there are complications and there will be new ones: the point is - India will get there, and we'll get there using methods and systems that work for us and on a time-table that (like the Indian Railways) is diffecult to predict today. The most important thing, though - is that as a country we keep moving forward. In some ways we have. For example, who'd have thunk 10 years ago that a search for 'Infosys' on BW would yield over 20 pages of links? Or a seemingly incessant comparison with China, by commentators who really should know better?

Comparing which country tops the other is journalistic schtick. China is an old and wonderful country, and they have their methods and systems of development - we have ours. Neither of them may look pretty, but as long as they work for their people who am I to argue?

Vineet Chandran

August 5, 2006 10:02 AM

People are getting carried away just as they did when Japan witnessed a similar meteoric rise as that of China. China's success is purely cheap labour,this is not a long term sustainable advantage. One day Africa would build itself to compete with China on the same lines that is "Foreign Technology and Local Cheap Labour". Now tell me how many respected Chinese brands does one Know. Practically nothing comes to mind.On the contrary India multinationals keep investing in their brands This difference is seen in every industry one can name under the sun. Secondly Indians are more Globalised than the Chineese. They can assimilate into an environment much easier than the Chinese do. English is one major reason but the most important is the natural instincts emerging out of living in the most diverse country on the face of the planet. Now Indias caste system problem is something everyone acknowledges,in India we freely debate and discus s it, but nothing close to that sort happens in China. No Indian Government will ever dare to run tanks on protesting Indian youths.Does anyone know the level of suppression in China.. No one would ever Know ..Why.. Because there is nothing called a free press. There are provinces in China which would immediately secede once democracy touches the mainland just like what happened when soviet Union collapsed.Brace yourself for another drama!

Vineet Chandran

August 5, 2006 10:17 AM

India is just in the beginning of a revolution.It started with IT and now you can see it catching up with other sectors in manufacturing, bio pharm etc..Dont forget brand "Mittal" your going to see more of this in the coming decades.Its just started.India will have more than enough to accomodate its billion plus people.
In India we control population not by forcing people to have just one child. Just imagine what good is economic prosperity without having the basic freedom of determining the number of children one has. I rather live in an impoverished African banana republic than live in a society where the Government pounces on such basic freedoms.

balloon_pricker

August 6, 2006 12:33 AM

Indian companies like Infosys and Wipro are only services companies working for the Western companies. Do they come out with original software of their own? Hardly any come to mind. Do they come out with their own branded software? Hardly any that I know of.

There's nothing original and innovative with India. Did India invented anything during their thousand of years of history? Nothing that I aware of except the '0'. (Yes!) Did they develop any polished arts during their thousand of years of history? Nothing that I know of comparable to Chinese porcelain, Western paintings, Japanese lacquer, etc.

Or coming back to more contemporary India, let's look at Bollywood. It may be the largest film industry in the world today but year in year out, they just churn out the same mindless song-dance routine films. It's low quality and there's hardly any variety, where's the innovation? Do Indian films win any International awards? If there are, it's must be very measly.

Some Indians like Vineet seems to like to live on wishful thinking. They like to boast about the supposed advantages of India before India has reached there. Achieve it before you talk. Otherwise it's all just talk and no work and you are only good for that.


medical professor

August 6, 2006 12:57 AM

Inida's call center is established "purely" because of cheap labor. If it's not cheap, why would American companies go there?!

Talking about brand names, lenovo and Haier are the names that would come to my mind. This just shows how ignorant you are. Show me one thing in the American household today that's made in India. None! In America, people use stuff made in America, China, Germany, Japan, South Korea, sweden, switzerland, Finland. Do you know how many multinational corporations there are in China, such as Siemens technology, Motorolla, volkswagen (Chinese use volkswagen cabs), audi, BMW, mercedes benz, sony, sam sung, LG? Do you know China has been the leading participants of cancer treatments in the world?! Look at the British industrial revolution, it starts with making general stuff then you can afford to build your brand names.

"The most diverse country on the face of the earth" is called the United States of America. Stop your shameless self promotoion.

Regarding assimilation, your extreme point of view will isolate you from the majority of the society. You can never assimilate in any society on the "face of the earth." You are not welcome anywhere because of your negativity, not even the impoverished African banana republic.

If you like to see drama, you should brace the drama that's going on in india, such as the bombing of train stations, killing innocent civilians. That shows you the decades of suppression and injustice in india. Talking about brand mittal, did you hear the comment made by CEO of the French steel company?

Regarding the freedom of press, China does need to work on that. The bottom line is China will transform economically and politically. Stability of China must be ensured before any drastic transformation. No countries in this world is free of problems, not even the U.S. However, it does not give you the rights to raise your ignorant comments regarding China.

Mitchell

August 7, 2006 12:47 AM

The infamous Gordon Chang once predicted that China will fall in the year of 2006 in his sold out book 'The coming collapase of China'. Upsurprisingly,there are a few who do not like to see the rise of China largely becuase of the ideological difference. Some are turning blind eyes on the progress and achivement in China, and they cook up something and make predication based upon some false illusion.

The democratic system can not guarantee the success of economy. Look at the South America, count how many countries are still struggling in their economic development since they decalared democracy. Some just recovered after a heavy price paid.

It is the captalism that drives the economy.

True, China is not democratic country yet, but underlining economy is very dynamic and it is even freer than many could imagine. The chinese governments (in particular local governments) are very business friendly and they do everything for you as long as you can bring in business and create jobs locally. The country has undergone great changes and is on the way to transform itself into one with market economy,advanced technology and harmonic society. Democracy will be materilized along its development.

Zhang Wei

August 7, 2006 02:38 AM

Why you Americans always like making a meaningless comparison between the two totally different countries? We Chinese don’t care the development of India because we have far surpassed them for years.

Vineet

August 7, 2006 02:46 AM

Firstly let me make it very damn clear in 1821 India accounted for 16% of the world GDP, now what you are witnessing is a turn around or putting it more bluntly India's charge to reclaim that status.Simply attacking me or my country will not cover up the facts. Do you know there are 2 million Chinese in this world who have applied for asylum because of repression or fearing one. No Indians do that. Ask yours self Why? The Indian Civilization is one of the greatest of all time just like the Chinese which i acknowledge and admire. But present day China is reminiscent to the puppet shows my parents used to take me to when i was a kid.Everything in China is stage managed. They decide from what kind of image they have to potray to what culture the people should espouse. I have the freedom to criticize my Government and system on a public forum like this but i am pretty damn sure our Chinese Medical Professor can do this only at the risk of his very own life unless he is an immigrant living ina foreign country. Again my chinese friend very conveniently left out the issue of "one Child policy" forcibly unleashed on its people. Tell me again what good is your economic success for. India's great competency levels in services industry is acknowledged gloally. This why all the Americans and Europeans are wetting their pants over the prospect of loosing jobs to India. My point is we are just started on this inexorable path to reclaim the success that was once truly ours and then we went to an era that is comparable to the "Dark Ages". Like it or not we are in a phase of "Renaissance". Frankly the Chinese economic success makes me very happy because as a true internationalist it is my opinion that India and China which accounts for nearly 1/3rd of humanity should elevate the status of its people and carry its rightfull weight in the International arena.
But the way China has got about achieving its success is not sustainable in the long run and that is more painful.The ramifications are far reaching and catastrophic . Remember the Success of the Soviet Union.We knew nothing about it ,only when the veils were lifted after the collapse of Communism did we realise the hollowness of all the perceived political,economic,scientific and military success.
Now at this juncture i beg of the medical professor not to argue for the sake of argument. The train blasts were not orchestrated by the Government of India. It was remote controlled by elements in another country who are simply finding it difficult to digest Indias emergence. But Tienaman Square, the artificial famine of the 1970's were despicable acts commissioned by the state.
The most diverse country in the world is India not America. You know why? Because our diversity was not artificially created by issuing visas to talented people around the globe. America is a land of immigrants brought from regions spanning the globe to build a country severly lacking in manpower. They dont have an identity of their own. This is why most Americans woo for their country of origin rather than America in a sporting contest or any competition.
Now coming to Bollywood. We have an independent industry which doesnt thrive on aping the west just like the Chinese or some other asian films do shamelessly.However there are exceptions to this. Sooner or later we will pip Hollywood as the biggest in revenue terms. This shows how narrow minded some people can be. See Indians have the sensibility to understand different cultures and appreciate movies both West as well as East. Dancing as a way of narration is such an ingenuous style that is entertaining like hell and is a welcome whiff of fresh air from the stereotyped Hollywood or its other Asian clone movie craps.
Appealing to western sensibilities is not our objective. The market for Indian movies is increasing at the rate of noughts and sooner or later my dear friend your gonna take ur family out for a bollywood movie.
Coming to Mittal ...The French did everything to abuse Indians and Mittal just like the medical professor and the "bubble_pricker" are trying against me..What happened? Who won? Mitall got what he set out for. He took on the the largely French Arcelor and he beat them hand is glove. He kicked out the blabbering self proclaimed French Messiah "Guy Dole". This is India and Indians for you guys. Dont mess up. If you harbour some illusions of doing so do think abut what happened to Arcelor and its Ceo Mr Guy Doll.
Now coming to brands, Which world are you living in Lenovo doesnt have a brand name of ist own.. That is why it is still clinging on to the IBM tag on its PC's .Why would a company with a good solid brand name dilute itself to use another brand name inspite of acquiring it. Simple no one knows about Lenovo except for some press it got while acquiring IBM' hardware business. Snap out of this rubbish no common man recognizes Lenovo. But tell him about Raymonds Suitings and he or she wont blink just as they would on hearing Lenovo.
So here you have something to chew about.!!
India was the greatest civilization centuries back. We have done it before and we are doing it again. So it is no wishfull thinking. Just wait and watch.
A Proud Indian

Tan

August 7, 2006 04:17 AM

I think the parameters that are being considered to debate the development of both China and India are grossly wrong and unfair to people and policy makers of the respective nations. The debate seem to lack concrete facts and are personal in a childish way if not anything else. Two societies with histories to back them have been progressing in the new global order. In fact they are progressing from the status of being third world countries to come up in the highest order- quite fast given their breadth.Historically the societies have had so many weird norms that if we dig up we would find hundreds of such norms which would be considered ills today. And that is true for each and every country.

Nothing happens overnight and that is why it is wrong to expect that things would change like that. How can one measure and compare two countries with completely different set-up and progress path? And how can one judge the progress and compare them if we are unaware of the history.

The debate between whether one is better than others has been misconstructed mostly for the sake of having a debate and waste of time and it is never going to yield any result whatsoever. What might yield result to my mind is, to trace their paths of development and see whether it is beneficial to the global economic order, the individual countries and the region as a whole or not. Which i guess all would agree that yes it is helping the nations and the global economic order at large.

Pavan

August 7, 2006 03:55 PM

Friends,
India was and is a poor country. No indian denies that. And surely enough, it is miles behind China. We are more interested in developing than overtaking china. If China develops, thats fine, but we would like to develop too. There itself is the mindset difference between the two. Compare us with Mr.Medical professor's comments which are so vitriolic and ill mannered. The biggest difference in India and china are 2 things. China is a manufacturing giant and india cannot compete with that. But on the other hand, the banking and finance in India is transparent (you can check out with any known economist regd that). In china, how many are aware of bad loans? How many are aware of the financial dealings happening? How can anyo0ne verify what the chinese are saying is true ? no democracy and free press, remember ?

polo90

August 7, 2006 07:34 PM

Although it is an interesting topic, this debate will not do us any good. We are running into a dead end as the Earth villagers if we keep following the economic model that the US has developed over the 20th century, which is based on the unlimited exploit to our natural resources. The world simply cannot support another economy like this, no matter who tops whom. We need a turning point in the way the world economic works. If we failed, we are all doomed no matter which country tops the world, the US, India, China, you name it.

Ben

August 8, 2006 01:39 AM

As a statistician who work on population growth models, I can tell you India is facing a big spike in population growth in the next 20 years. China's population control policy has been in place for 30+ years, but the biggest increments occured in recent years. How? Let's do the math.

China's life expenctancy in the 1970's was around 65 coupled with high infant death rate, more or less like India's situation today. According to most recent China's census report, its life expenctancy stands around 73 and infant death rate was reduced by more than 70%, thanks to its ever improved heatlh care and quality of life. The effect of these two factors alone accounts for 150 milion more people in China today.

India will go through the same process. The old formula used for calculating population growth was wrong. Unless you assume that 90% of the India population will never get benefit from this economic boom, and their life quality will never be improved. If that's the case, what is the point to grow the economy?

China (finally) did the right thing in a very brutal and controversial way. Simply speaking, it is swallowing a bullet now to dodge a bomb later. It's a painful experience, but there is really no easy way out.

There is no doubt that India has a younger work force, but they will grow older and live longer. As a result, they will need a larger next generation to support them when they grow old. This is a bad cycle and will lead to disaster at some point.

Contradict to what most people believe, population alone contribute very little to the economy growth. That explains why China and India were and still are among the poorest countries in the world. The key is the productivity of its work force. Productivity is correlated neither to the size nor to the age of its population. Surprisingly, it is closely related to the quality (as measured by development index of the nation) of its population.

Vineet

August 9, 2006 03:00 AM

See I totally agree that a huge population however young is of no point if the country's economy cant support it. But in India's case the advantage is we are getting younger in a time and age when an overwhelming majority of the world is greying. Does this ring a bell? Indian manpower is going to be the biggest export of India in the coming decades.
The world at large and the west in particular are going to need everyone from plumbers to engineers,accountants to highly sophisticated managers. Where are they going to come from. India has a big role to play in this context.

Secondly with all due respect to Chinese enterprise ,it is very obvious that Chinese Management has a long way to go when it comes to competing with that of India and the world. Most Chinese companies today are looking towards the west to give them direction. But in India's case this is entirely different. Our managers are globally acknowleged for their prowness,insight and business acumen.

But what China has going for itself right now is a very investment friendly Government and policies aligned to help foreign enterprise.
The Indian model of growth may appear a bit slow but it is a more stable and pragmatic one. But most importantly it is a strategy build around consensus.

There is so much work to be done especially in the manufacturing space but we are watching China carefully and formulating a methodology which will help us to assimilate the positives and weed out the negatives.

Another point worthy of note is the quality of Human Capital in both countries. All MNC's claim indisputably that though China may have superior infrastructure Human Capital wise India pips them.

The bottomline is when you judge a country you have to get the whole picture rather than just looking at growth statistics. They are indicators no doubt but dont potray the larger picture.
There must be competition between India and China. Because this is a Win-Win scenario for the people of both our countries.
Wishing both countries the very best in this aspect.

Chetan

August 9, 2006 09:25 AM

What are we trying to convey here? Sure the conversations here (well most of them) aren't portraying us (India and China) as developing nations. Ask yourself a question, what does it require for a country to be called a “developing one”? Does any of the data we have put up here help in this regard? On a serious note, what is the point in we calling ourselves a developing one? We can even say ‘we are the Developed countries’, but everyone know what we are, of course unless they are dumb enough to believe us. Each one of us will have the love towards their country, no matter how bad it is. Every Indian will say ‘I love India’ even if they have suffered from its corrupted politics and every Chinese will say ‘China is the Best’ even if he is struggling to earn single_meal_a_day. It is this affection that makes us to showcase our nation as the best. But it shouldn’t be we who should say we are developed, it should be the people from round_the_globe.
It is nice to see the positives of both the countries brought out in the discussion, but why are we so primitive while receiving the criticism? We know the critics the other party is putting forward are valid. Why can’t we accept the fact and go about finding the solution for our negatives (the opponent is mentioning)? Why are we trying to burry our failures underneath the others?
Until when will we be pulling others leg to showcase ourselves as superior? We (India and China) are in the same step of development. Why can’t we work together and help each other reach the top?

Janet

August 10, 2006 05:25 PM

I agree with Ben's comment on China's population policy. A large population is never a solution for the stable growth of the economy. China's population was only 400 million people in China when it won its independence. Mao reached the conclusion that China would be more powerful if it had a larger population. Thus, very soon, the population in China more than doubled. In begining of the 1980s, people found it's not right. That's the time the the "one child policy" was carried out. China actually has contributed a lot to the world on this problem. Imagine, if China had not carried out this policy decades ago, there might be 1 billion more people consuming oil, gas and many other things. India should learn from China on the population policy. It would be an even bigger problem for India to keep growing at the current speed in population. They will realize it one day, but it may be too late when they have already reached 2 billion people.

Andrew Smith

August 10, 2006 06:31 PM

It makes no sense comparing the two. India is in the same league as Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka, while China competes against Japan, Korea, and Taiwan.

You can always compare apples with oranges, but you just never will get anywhere.

Andrew

suresh

August 10, 2006 06:42 PM

No good is acheived if one country tries to show the other in poor light. Work together and we will all prosper. Let the Zhangs and Vineets work together and Chindia will prosper.

zhang wei

August 11, 2006 01:13 AM

China's population was only 400 million people in China when it won its independence.
--------------------------------------
Janet, "China won its independence" is totally wrong because China never was a colonial country. Mao built up the People's Republic of China after he overthrew the Republic of China. The Republic of China was built by Sun Yat-sen (Sun Zhongshan).

Vineet

August 11, 2006 08:32 AM

China was not a colonial country? Then what is the "cutting of the Chinese melon" all about? It was ruled by multiple countries. Get your facts right, Zhang.

Andrew

August 11, 2006 01:35 PM

I agree with Bruce Einhorn that China has the momentum and there is no sign that it will yield its lead over to India in the near future.

If theory can win business and deveop a nation, India would have been one of the wealthiest country 20 years ago. It has almost exactly the same political system, infrastructure, and education as it had 50 years ago. It just never worked the way it was supposed to. That explains why FDI did not flow to India as politicians touted. Money is always smarter than politics. It always finds places that offer faster growth than any politicians can predict. It's a good thing that politicians don't run investment banks.

Democracy is an insurance for social and economical stability, but it rarely supports sensational economy growth. From that stand point, India will enjoy slow and stable growth in the years to come. China faces a bumpy road. Historically speaking, all the major economies adopted democracy after their countries were developed. Fast growth is not as desirable as stability for the developed countries. Some recent examples include Taiwan and Korea. That also projected that China will also have to adopt democracy at some point. China followed the same path as Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore. It's tried and true.

India is an interesting example and no nation in the world had gone through its phases of development. From that stand point, it's facing more uncertainties. But as I said before, the worst case scenario for India is slow growth. It's still mind boglling how you feed 1 billion people and lift a nation with softwares.

INDIAN STUDENT

August 12, 2006 10:36 AM

China lags behind India in micro-economic parameters which is the base for a country to sustain its advantageous growth in the long term. India has just started to grow and is catching up to China in the areas where it lags behind, while in certain areas it is already ahead of China. So in the next 10 yrs China will find it hard to compete with India when it will lose its advantages to other cheap-labor countries and India will grow at the high end.
Check-out...growth has just started for India.

Arun Patel

August 14, 2006 10:20 PM

Both India and China have in the past considered their large populations as liabilities. But now they provide both with competitive advantage. Let's not start the old era of British Raj where the principle was "Divide and Conquer" and then start all over again from scratch. As people in both countries prosper, innovation will come automatically. This will eventually teach the rest of the world the "utilitarian principle" and save for future generations Mother Earth, which has been endangered for the last 200 years by so-called economically advanced peoples. That is sustainable thinking.

Vineet

August 16, 2006 02:55 AM

First things first. The return on capital in India is much higher than that of China. Secondly India's growth has been led by homegrown Indian entrepreneurs. That is why one hears of so many big Indian industrial houses not just in IT but also manufacturing and petrochemicals. In China no doubt there are massive exports. But just pause a moment to think who are these companies that are leading the way. They are essentially Western, Japanese and other East Asian Companies. In India its not the GM's or GE's that are triggering success, it is the likes of Tatas, Reliance, Birlas etc etc who have come of age and exploited globalization to the hilt. India to this date is not open to foreign investment in many sectors like China is. The retail sector is a perfect example. We are not allowing the Wal Marts and Tescos of the world yet. Why? Because we are laying the ground for competition by developing our local players like Pantaloon and lately even Reliance. So when India decides to open up there will be massive foreign investment.
Then there is the infrastructure conundrum as far as India is concerned. We spend only 1/5th of what China does. But 5 years back we used to spend only 1/10th of what China does. So you can see the gap closing in the next decade.
Now when it comes to democracy it has to be understood that without it one cannot preserve the integrity of the diverse community India is home to. Our democratic system allows voices of different sections of the society to be heard. If nations try to accelerate their economic successes by turning a blind eye on different political considerations the fallout can be catastrophic. This is what we witnessed with the late USSR. Though a superpower the USSR never gave a damn to the views and perceptions of its multiple communities. So we witnessed a complete collapse and disintegration. Most Communist nations have collapsed. All nations that have adhered to the ideology are today in dire straits.
When China transforms politically (which is inevitable) there are issues they will have to address. This transformation is going to be a long and a bitter ride. By then India's strong fundamentals will ensure not just catching up but in fact overtaking China.
Democracy has fostered creative thinking in India and not a mechanical way of operations. This is why we are so successful in knowledge-based industries. The bottomline is that, in India the People control the economy. In China the state controls everything.

Reetika

August 16, 2006 06:00 PM

A couple months back, my friend and I had the same debate that is going on here. My friend is Chinese and I am Indian. We were just doing it because it would give us a chance to learn about each other's country in a more fun and involved way. Funny thing is that at the same exact time, my friend and I came across this issue on the Internet about how China and India are improving their relationship with each other. Here we were trying to find out which country is better while in reality both of our countries were becoming allies. What I'm trying to say is that instead of arguing which country is better, we need to work together to improve both countries' conditions. My dad says that if India and China become allies, then we will become the two most powerful countries in the world. Perhaps then our conditions will become better.

Vineet

August 20, 2006 10:42 AM

Let's not misconstrue what this debate constitutes. It's not about either China or India. It's about two different models of growth and the sustainabiity of it. China and India have to coexist in peace and will be forced to find middle ground on foreign policy issues in the decades ahead because there is no other alternative. The world is heading for disaster of an unprecedented scale if these two giant neighbours lock horns.

Now for heaven's sake we need healthy economic rivalry between the two nations as its works in the favour of both India as well as China.

The best part of this whole India-China rise is the gradual but unmistakable shift of power from the west to the east.

Regarding becoming allies: Well, I doubt if it's a good move. Allies should have a confluence of values and interests. In this regard I think it suits India best to ally with the likes of United States because we stand for the same cause of democracy, freedom, tolerance and entreprenuership. Let's not racially ally ourselves but look at the larger picture and make decisions with a broader perspective. There is no partnership to match an India-US understanding. It's both logical as well as practical to do so.

Akshay

August 28, 2006 02:50 PM

It is good to have a debate but let us not make it personal. There is an important point to think about: the difference between China and the USSR. The USSR was a great military power but an economic midget and this was the major cause of its downfall and breakup.

The Chinese learned from them and are today showing the world that even a centralized system, in combination with capitalism, can be highly effective.

Same holds true of India albeit a different path. We chose a democratic federal system and are also making great strides after abandoning our protectionist policy. The percentage of poor Indians has reduced by 10% over the last five years.

Regarding India's population growth: It is a problem but the growth rate is coming down (0.9 percent by 2021) and the population is expected to stabilize at 1.7 billion by 2060 as per a UN study.
http://countrystudies.us/india/33.htm

The fact is both China and India are rising. The 21st century belongs to both these Asian giants. In my view comparisons must only be made to learn from each other and not belittle each other's economy, political structure or culture.

Andy

September 13, 2006 02:41 PM

I just wonder about the ability of the Indian government to provide jobs for its future less-educated billion citizens. Will they end up crossing the border to neighboring countries, such as China, to look for jobs? That would not be that bad for China since China could then focus its younger citizens to pursue hi-tech jobs and leave the factory-worker positions to the Indians.

stone

September 22, 2006 08:56 AM

Vineet, It is true that China was NEVER TOTALLY colonized like India. Even at the golden time of European colonization, the Chinese empire managed to maintain most of its sovereignty, though some small places like Hong Kong were ceded to the British and some unfair treaties were signed. Later the Japanese took the Northeast part of the empire. This triggered a 14-year bloody war. After the Japanese surrendered at 1945, a Chinese civil war broke out, the Mao-led Communist army won. This is the now well-known "People's Republic of China" I hope this post help you improve your knowledge about Asian history.

Vineet

September 27, 2006 01:59 AM

Stone, the chinese were colonized like no nation ever before in what is historically termed as the "Cutting of the Chinese Melon" when their provinces were shared by western powers for exclusive "Spheres of Influence".. it never ceases to amaze me how people like you can be so selective in your reading about the past and history.

outofin

September 28, 2006 06:31 PM

I don't think Stone and Vineet contradict each other. Stone used "never totally", and Vineet used "shared by western powers". But Vineet contradicts himself by saying "colonized like no nation ever before".

Western influences didn't reach inland China. They did have full authority in "Rented Districts" in many cities of the coastline.

SmartOpinion

October 3, 2006 05:22 PM

Here is a thought for "medical professor." There is a city called as Pune in the midwestern part of India. Guess what, Chinese students have applied for Indian visas and are planning to stay in India. In fact, in Pune some Chinese have opened up authentic Chinese restaurants and cannot go back to China. So here is another thought: Would it be that Indian-born Chinese-Indians will help India to accelerate the expansion of markets into China for Indian companies? :) :)

Andy

October 5, 2006 06:50 PM

The language and culture speak for colonialism. China maintained its culture and language during its turbulant time in history. Indians today speak fluent English as a result of surrendering to their British masters for centuries.

Chinese moved to India and worked there. It is not big news. China is nation full of people not afraid of expanding. Does it mean that they prefer India to China? Nope. Indians are living and working in Hong Kong, Shenzhen and Shanghai. Does it mean they prefer China too? I don't think so. The only reason is it is just a business.

Nobody

October 6, 2006 09:33 AM

India started becoming a British colony via the Regulating Act of 1773, the India Act of 1784, and the Charter Act of 1813 after losing two major wars with the Empire (Wikipedia, Indian Independence).

China, while "carved up" by several nations due to their sphere of influence, managed to maintain its national sovereignty. This was an issue between 1870-1910 (Wikipedia, Sphere of Influence).

So, Vineet, which is worse? Losing complete control of one's nation to another country; or, losing costal trading zones to several countries but maintaining overall independence?

On topic: Why is this worth arguing about? Does it really matter which country is #1? Why do we need to feel such pride about our countries? So long as there is peace and prosperity, shouldn't we all be happy?

Nobody

October 6, 2006 09:50 AM

Another thing I wanted to point about concerning China's lack of global namebrand recognition is that a Chinese car company called Chery will be introducing a line of cars in America within the next 3 years. Source: http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0501/02/A01-47455.htm

And considering how much commerical time cars get, people will take notice - be it good or bad. India does have some multinational companies, but unless they produce goods rather than provide services they will likely never become a household name (if you think that's important).

As for the cars themselves, like practically all foreign cars in the beginning, they will be low quality and very cheap. My history professor told me that Japanese cars were referred to as "Jap Crap" back in the 1970s when they first made it to America. Similar feelings were held for Hyundai. But, after a decade of so, these companies at least have been performing well. Some, like Toyota and Honda are exceptional.

SmartOpinion

October 6, 2006 10:56 AM

Andy, now that you understand a little bit of how business works here is some enlightenment for you.
For economic success an atmosphere of innovation coupled with access to capital markets is required. Do capital markets exist in China? No. The Indian stock market is more than 50 years old. Innovation primarily occurs either in universities or by individuals or by business competition. India clearly has an advantage if you compare the three. Here is a classical example of problems in Communism. The world famous PC game Tetris was invented in Communist Russia by a Russian engineer. Their rights were sold to Nintendo by the Communist state for $300,000. The Chinese may not sell that cheap, but the point is that the State expectations are totally different from that of an individual’s expectation. That is where an atmosphere of democracy in business decision is required. People complain about the lack of infrastructure in India. But guess what, that is a blessing in disguise. Poor infrastructure gives breathing time for the newcomers. Already the whole IT market is captured by just 4 – 5 large Indian corporations.

The Chinese argument for not transitioning to democracy is that a faster transition would be disruptive and harmful for the country. But guess what? There can never be a smooth transition from Communism to Democracy. It will always be disruptive. Only democratic values understand smooth transition; one cannot imagine Communist leaders vacating power “smoothly.”

On a lighter note, one has to remember that there is going to be the largest migration of people that has occurred in any historical time. That would be North-South between China and India. The demographics of the future India and China are going to be very different. India and China would be the place where everybody wants to be unless the West invents technology to colonize the moon :) :)

Stephen

October 10, 2006 04:54 AM

I personally think the world has so much at stake when it comes to India's success. Evidently the only counter to an increasingly belligerent and very shady Chinese regime is India. If China overtakes India, expect the law of the Jungle with the likes of North Korea and Iran playing key allies. China has political ambitions which can cost the world dearly. The peaceful rise of China is a sham until they demcratize. I'm glad India's growth has been steadily rising and now is in position to overtake that of China. It will be a victory for the free world if India can achieve World Power status and challenge China. I think just like the Americans the whole of Europe should back India's climb to the top.

jcage

October 13, 2006 04:48 PM

Our Indian friend here likes to claim that democracy will ensure India's success in the imaginary race for Number 1. India has been a democracy for more than five decades and still is a very poor country. Why will democracy work now and not work before? Also, there are many poor democratic countries in the world, such as many of the Latin American countries and several African countries. India is included in that group.

Also, Indians in this forum like to mention Tiananmen Square. Well, I have got news for you: "Operation Blue Star" in which the Golden Temple of the Sikhs was destroyed by the Indian government. See link http://www.sikhspectrum.com/052004/ahluwalia_ms_3.htm

Also, there are many separatist movements that want to separate from the so-called "Greatest Democracy" in the face of the planet such as:
http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/2936.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurgent_groups_in_Northeast_India

Also, India has the greatest number of under-weight child, number of child labor working in slave-like conditions, discrimination, corruption etc. In short India is more akin to the poorest country of Africa.

Besides, Indian companies such as Tata and some other protected India companies could only survive in India due to government protection.

Jimmy

October 14, 2006 03:16 AM

That is actually the crux of the situation. The West is goading India to challenge China because India is seen as benign and can't threaten them while China's rise is seen as belligerent and threatening to their status. Wait until India turns on them and bites their hands and then they will not think so.

Stephen

October 16, 2006 03:09 AM

I beg to differ on that Jimmy. India today is an open story. We see India the way it is, but when it comes to China we see only what the regime there wants us to see. India may and will bite but believe me it wouldn't be nearly as venomous as the Chinese sting. I still believe China is only a coastal sucess story and Chinese people struggle when they live in any other part of the world in comparison to Indians who have adapted so admirably well with different communities and societies. I can state with some degree of certainty that in the U.S. the Indian community is much more successful than any other community be it the Chinese or other subcontinental countries, primarily because they understand different value systems and successfully blend with them. In fact statistics show that the average Indian household earns nearly twice as much as the average American household. These guys are smart and damn enterprising. Having said that I have no malice towards the Chinese people. They are very hard working too but because of reasons which I presume to be linked to their cultural background they generally tend to be more narrow in thought and perception.

Andy

October 16, 2006 01:05 PM

@Smartopinion

Did you even read this article? This article said that China has beaten India in terms of innovation. Doesn't it prove that the system works in China? While China is growing in innovation, India is heading the other way according to this article.

Oh and China doesn't have capital markets? You must be ignorant. Shanghai might not be as mature as Indian capital markets, but it exists. Hong Kong is decades ahead of Indian capital markets.

Smooth transition? What makes you think China will have a chaotic democracy like the one in India? China will pursue its own democracy with Chinese characteristics. Besides, there is always a first time. Who knows - China may be the pioneer that has a smooth transition. After all, China is a nation of first things that happen or are created.

On a lighter note too, I agree that India will keep growing to one of the most prosperous nation. It deserves it as it has a lot of good talents in India. But it needs to work on its red tapes first.

Andy

October 17, 2006 12:34 PM

@Stephen

Chinese are more narrow in perception and thought? They're not the ones bogged down in Iraq and Afganistan. They're not the ones condemned by the whole world as the superbully. The U.S. indeed needs to be afraid of China because China has supported the multilateral world. The whole world has backed China on the multilateral stand. Please point out to me which country supports the unilateral power that the U.S. promotes?

SmartOpinion

October 17, 2006 02:50 PM

Andy: The last time I checked, Hong Kong was a flourishing democracy with a capitalist free market from the U.K.? Yeah, you are right India is lagging because China and India opened their economy at the same time?

JCAGE is so naive that it makes me LOL. I mean have you seen old Boston in the U.S.? It was very large and one of the poorest places, like Dharavi in Mumbai. Have you checked this weekend's Wahington Post article on fisherman using Cell phones for price negotiations in India? I mean come on give me a break. Have you checked about under camera sting operation which exposed corruption in the defense sector in India, in the same Washington Post? Nothing like this can even happen in the U.S. and that’s what U.S. newspapers were envying when they saw this happening in India. Do you know that a mass opposition was started using anonymous text messaging by young people, to which a local Delhi government had to yield their power? Do you know that poor village people are using computers to control their milk production? Do you know that village people are using the Internet to communicate photos and messages? Do you know that there is a plan of mass producing $100 PCs in India? Do you know that tier 2 city growth had already kicked off?

If you do not understand democratic importance in business decision then I rest my case. How is an average man going to defend himself/herself against a large corporation? How is the distribution of wealth guaranteed once the engine of prosperity is started? Once you land in the Shanghai Airport you see these tall buildings. But have you seen the occupancy rates of these buildings? Please refer to Gartner and Forbes reports. I mean who is paying for the 43% un-occupancy expenses?

JCAGE: Educate yourself. 50% of Bollywood is owned by Sikhs aka Punjabis. Tata survived using government protection! Are you kidding? Why would a Company need government protection if it was the first comer in the whole Indian market? Do you know that Tata’s just bought the famous US/Europe Tetley brand in India without the government help? I think you need to get a crash course in Economics 101. Oh! and one more thing. Yeah there is going to a big miracle and all the Indian poor thin kids are going to be big fat rich. Yeah we do agree on that and let's not talk about Katrina poor people in the U.S.!

ssvs

October 18, 2006 12:10 AM

Unfortunately there is too much bragging on the India side. I don't think any of these guys could have been to China - it is an incredible achievement in development (at least on the coast). India has a few pockets of excellence but the system is bogged down with a corrupt and ineffecient government and a tendency to shirk any physical labor by any educated person. It is unfortunate that the Indian tendency to argue and brag tries to cover this up. It is best to shut up and build the country before attempting any comparison to China (3 times the GDP) and more ridiculously the U.S. (10 times the GDP) anytime soon. The Chinese have been smart in keeping quiet and avoiding pissing anyone off while they were growing and vulnerable and the Indians have to learn this. At least take a trip to Shanghai before barking. I grew up in Mumbai and left 20 yrs back.

Stephen

October 18, 2006 02:45 AM

See guys let's not get swayed by emotions here. Somewhere down the line I think this debate has lost focus and purpose. India and China both are developing nations that have witnessed unprecedented growth, no doubt. Eventually both will emerge prosperous and successful. Both have their share of troubles and challenges. But who has the edge here? I think India does for many reasons, one of which is the influence exerted by the Indian culture and its diaspora. Bollywood has had a cultural impact on nations second only to Hollywood. I think we Americans dominate not as much as because of the dollars we generate than by our Big Macs, Hollywood Dreams and Pop culture. If there is one country which seems to be challenging what has increasingly looked like an American hegemony, it is India and its ostentatious symbols of culture, fashion, food and life style. I have been to shanghai once. It looks just like another metropolis in the west or east. But in India these folks have something uniquely different: The women clad in sarees and salwars, the turban clad Sikhs, the dhothis. Everything in India looks so colourfull and different and rich. I was invited to attend the recent India Fashion Week. I felt Indian designers to be independent in thought and bring along with them a whiff of fresh air without aping the West. In the West (at least in the U.S.) yoga, the Indian meditation art, is a blockbuster and increasingly becoming a rage both among young and old. I can just go on and on but it never ceases to amaze me how fashionable every aspect of the Indian culture has become. Bollywood melodramas may not yet appeal to popular western sensibilities but I was startled to learn that this year Indian movies pipped Brtish movies in terms of ratings and revenues in their OWN COUNTRY. Now isn't that a harbinger of change?. The Chinese are smart no doubt they are very intelligent but they don't add anything different to the world .Just like Americans brought new style and icons to the world like our movies, fast food and of course our fashion, India is fast offering an alternative. In India it is not Hollywood that rules, unlike China. Neither are Indians all dressed up like Westerners. As I blog my "Indian Chicken Tikka Masala" is getting cold so have to go for now. Mind you I love Chinese noodles too but hey these guys are different and they are bringing new dimensions to the world.

See, Andy, Iraq was a big mistake and America is paying for it thanks to faulty intelligence and a cowboy President. but I have the freedom to criticize my Leadership. Can the Comms in China allow that?

This thread is not about American Foreign Policy. But I have no hesitation in stating that the world is a million times safer, just and free with America as the leading power than the Chinese. They are allies to countries like North Korea. Seriously this is messed up International Policy by the Comms in China. The US is not perfect by any stretches of imagination but the world will pay dearly if they prop up China.. India is the safest bet for now...

jcage

October 18, 2006 09:01 PM

Smartyopinion, please take a deep breath and try not over-react. Life is too short for this type of outburst.

Ok, feeling better? Good!
Well, Tata has the India market sequester by itself with the help of the Indian government. Indian government put a lot of barrier for foreign competiton for example, recently Motorola got barred from doing business from India. This will protect India industry at the expense of the India consumer.

By the way, you have not answer my question why so many ethnic group in India want to separate from the greatest democracy? Sikh want their own land, Kalisthan?

Take care

Vikram

October 19, 2006 10:55 AM

Ethnic groups dont want to separate from Indian democracy...these are sentiments fuelled by terrorists who are supported from countries like Pakistan. Khalistan movement is dead for heaven sake..All Sikhs are proud to be part of India. Our prime minister is a Sikh himself. In India every minority and ethnic group are represnted well because of our democracy. Not like the repression faced by tibetans in China or the muslim majority state of China. Look at Taiwan they would never dream of joining China no matter how powerful they become. Even people in Hong Kong if given an option will chose to secede from the mainland.
See what the communists are doing to the Falun Gong sect. Unbelievable suppression of human rights.

Jcage i hope you have an answer now

Andy

October 19, 2006 11:03 AM

@smart
The last time I checked, Hong Kong has been reunited with China for almost a decade, and Hong Kong has flourished and prospered like never before.

@stephen
You, as American certainly can criticize your government. But unfortunately, other nation citizens, who are affected by your government, can't voice their opinions. Have the US asked the Iraqis' and Afganis' opinions before it attacked them?
China as leader? Which concept of multilateral that you don't understand? China never want to be a single leader. The world is mess up like today because of the US that acts without any consent on other nations' opinions.
The US has made the world safer? Throughout the 20th century, the US has contributed in almost all major conflicts. It was not China that set up the North and South Korea and set up this deadly division. It was not China that blockade the NK and made the country so poor and in the brink of madness. Which country snap up most resources in the world that make new emerging power like China and India have to resort to buying oil from rogue states like Iran? No thanks, the world doesn't need the single leader like US.

SmartOpinion

October 19, 2006 11:04 AM

@JCAGE There is a saying which goes like this, quote "A blind man can learn about Sunrise through books but he will never have the real authentic experience of a beautiful sunrise like you and I have. For that, his eyes need to be healed" unquote.. So let’s talk about Khalistan with these facts, but before we do that, let’s schedule a meeting with the current Prime Minister of India who happens to be a Sikh. Let’s ask him about his Government oppressing Sikhs in India and let’s ask him whether Sikhs wants a Khalistan.

Now let’s talk about Indian Government support for Tata.. Hmm here is a crash course in Economics 101... Government protection is needed until the Sector is ready to compete on a Global basis. Don't believe that, then here are some examples. Investigate existing Farm subsidies by the US government. Enlighten yourself why there are very High import tariffs in US on importing ETHANOL especially from Brazil. Protect CORN manufacturer/Oil company profits??. Investigate tax breaks aka subsidies to the Aircraft manufacturers that were complained by European manufacturer Airbus.. Investigate history of the US Automobile Industry that had Import Quotas that were targeted against Japanese manufacturers until the Industry was ready to compete... Investigate 21’st century laws in US that don’t allow import of Medicinal Drugs from over sees stating counterfeit reasons. (Interestingly they do allow some generic DRUGS). Real reason, protect High profits of US Drug manufacturers. Quotas on Textile Imports were there for decades until couple of years ago. I can go on and on but this is getting very boring.... Anyway, I guess you will prefer to not understand about all this Economics mombo jumbo...

Lastly, this forum would be more interesting if one can criticize intelligently with interesting examples and restrain from personal attacks hence the over reaction :) :)

Coby

October 19, 2006 12:40 PM

@stephen
Iraq is just a mistake? It is a crime to humanity not a simple mistake.
Americans pay dearly? not even a tiny fraction compare to what the Iraqis pay for your country's "mistake."

jcage

October 19, 2006 09:24 PM

SmartOpinion thank for confirming that India companies does require government help to protect against foreign competition. The Indian government protect its companies through high tariff and subsidies. Yes, I agree that it is also done by many countries as well. However, many of those companies US automobile industries, Europe Airbus et al still produce competetive product of high quality.

Chinese market is very open and extremely competetive since companies from different part of the world are trying to get a piece of the Chinese market such as the automobile market. American car companies, Japanese car companies, and European car companies and Chinese companies are fighting for the different section of the car market. European and Japanese dominate the upper end while Chinese company dominate the lower end of the car market spectrum and Chinese car companies start to move to the middle of the car market.
Under this competetive market only the best and strongest Chinese companies could survive and thrive but many Chinese companies would simply disappear. This not only apply to car but different market.

Now, your prime minister obviously want to be Indian but there are many Sikh that would like to get their own country. India should give them more indepence and they should be allowed to hold a referendum and tighly observed by different nation of the world. Same for Sikkim and many other ethnic that want freedom to create their own nation.

Baljit

October 21, 2006 02:25 AM

Hi I am a Sikh and i am apalled by the coments made by this so called Jcage..Sikhs want independence..Who said so? the Khalistan movemement is dead.. Do you realise that 40% of Indian army constitute sikhs...If we werent happy with India do you think we would enroll into th eramy..Every Sikh household has at least one of their members in the army..In Delhi 20% of the Government in Delhi is made up of Sikhs. If there has to be a referendum it has to be in Tibet,it has to be in the muslim dominated province of China,it has to be in Hong Kong,it has to be in Taiwan and in every province of China.Watch the fun when China is forced to reform democratically by a people's revoly against suppression, This nation will be shredded to pieces.Just like the USSR did and every other Communist nation dismembered.
Dont be foolish every country and economy in the world uses subssidies..in China the Government is so scared that it allows only partnerships with foreigh firms when it comes to automobiles etc in india today we offer full ownership rights...

Coby

October 21, 2006 11:20 AM

Hahaha, the Indians are famous for disguising themselves as commentators from taiwan, japan, america and now sikh. The truth is, the internet penetration hasn't reached the poor sikh.

I'm seriously concern that India will have trouble handling the numerous separatism in its nation. Hopefully it doesn't destablize the region.

jcage

October 22, 2006 02:09 AM

Many Sikh die for Khalistan dream! Their Golden Temple destroyed and many Sikh were linched by Hindus mob during operation Blue Star!
There are many independent movement in India that want their own country with their own democracy and able to select their own way of life.
Sikh did a lot for India and they should get their Khalistan and able to practive their own religion.
Many Sikh in India are afraid to speak up their mind since they would label as traitor and linched by Hindus mob and executed by the Hindus government.
That is a fact that so many Sikh are afraid to voice their opinion after operation Blue Star.
There are many ethnic group in India that want their own government and freedom to chose their way of life.

Baljit

October 24, 2006 01:21 AM

Ha ha ha that's why we have a Sikh as our Prime Minister. Because Hindus can't tolerate them. Joke of the year. Why would Sikhs enroll in the army so much so that it overtakes all other communities in India? Why? They don't have to join the indian forces in such large numbers. Your argument is invalid, jcage.. No oppressed community would join the forces in such huge numbers...30% of the Indian army and they are not patriotic? Gimme a break. Talk Tibet, Talk Taiwan, Talk Muslim dominated provinces of China...they need help.

David Lee

October 24, 2006 06:41 AM

@stephen,

The USA is involved in so many wars since the 1950's that it should be branded a rougue and criminal nation.

Analysis have proved that many of your country's interventation in this wars is purely for american interest and nothing to do with human rights and democracy, despite all the spin stories cooked up by the CIA.

The latest Iraq war adventure where a deadly civil war is brewing proves that your president and his backers should be branded as war criminals and face justice.

The world is safer because of America. Give me a break. USA cold war mentality to hedge India against China will only bring more tension to this region. Fortunately, I glad that there is sounder minds in these countries to counter your country's cold war intentions.
Your thinking is typical of the jingoistic

Andy

October 24, 2006 12:17 PM

To the Indian Baljit, in most countries especially the developing nations, the majority of army recruits are from poverty neighborhoods. That's the only way for them to escape their fate. Why they join the army instead of the software engineers in Bangalore? Because they don't have that equal opportunity.
Indians choose Sikh and Muslim as presidents to appease the separatists movement. Of course, one Sikh at the top won't change the fact that the majority of Sikhs live in poverty.

SmartOpinion

October 25, 2006 09:26 AM

@BALJIT

Leave the child aka @JCAGE alone.. He could be a disguised disgruntle American who must have lost his/her job to an Asian Indian... Just like one cannot talk Fast Fourier Transform or Engineering Calculus to a Middle school student, you cannot talk all these facts to a blind UTOPIAN @JCAGE. He needs to graduate in life before we can debate him. Let him live in his own UTOPIA as all the Americans live. Americans don't travel abroad, don't hold passports so they don't know the Global facts. They try to guess the world through history books written by neo-conservative people...

I have seen some of @JCAGE responses on different articles and looks like he is a WASTE OF EVERYBODY'S TIME...

jcage

October 25, 2006 01:22 PM

SmartOpinion, I am dissapointed by your action and word. When the going get tough, the tough get going.
It seems that you have just run out of argument and you can not defend your position.

India is not the utopia that you want everyone to believe. Then, not country is perfect. However, you and your fellow Hindus are trying to trick the rest of the world as India the greatest democracy in the world and that India technology is the top of the world or something like that.

Smartopinion, I guess you should spend more time answering all those phone call from India call center.

Baljit

October 26, 2006 02:10 AM

Dear Andy

Sikhs in India are poor!!!... your so ignorant arent u?Punjab is one of the most forward states in India.The per capita income of the average Sikh household is nearly twice as much as any other community in India..If we were oppressed we would be just like you Chinese were, as some one pointed "the greatest asylum seekers of the world"..but we dont seek asylum like that do we!!!
Food for thought for u..

Andy

October 26, 2006 04:22 PM

@baljit
if you're really a Sikh, how come you don't know the Sikh massacre in Golden Temple by the Indian commandos. Many Sikhs have to take refugee in neighboring nations since then. You're clearly a Hindu disguised as a Sikh. Not surprise though considering many Indians disguised themselves in other forums.

Baljit

October 28, 2006 03:31 AM

Sikhs were masacred..your ignorance has no bounds..Who headed Operation Blue Star..A Sikh !!!..There were terrorists using the Gurudwara for arms containment..Hindus revere the Golden Temple just as they would any other temple in the world..
Have you visited the Golden Temple..There are as many Hindus who pray there as there are Sikhs..
I dont have to prove my identity to any one..Andy only the Communist maniacs disguise themselves on forums like this out of their fear that the truth might spill out..Ask the people of Tibet,Taiwan,Musilm majority province sthere,even Hong Kong has no interset in joining China...Sikh Soldiers have given their blood for India's cause like no other community in India..Why would India entrust the position of Army Major General..the highest military ranking of the land on a Sikh..use your common sense..If the Sikhs in the Indian army rebel that would spiral the collapse of the Indian Union..If the community didnt believe in India we would never flock to the army and civil servivce in such large numbers..larger than any other community...Tell me how come Punjab falls on the Highest Income Bracket group in India , if we were oppressed we would never reach there..India is an emerging power ..the world realises the only way to stop Indias inevitable rise is by playing one community against the other...Andy go fool someone else..not an Indian
A Proud Sikh and a Proud Indian!
Jai Hind

Lee

October 29, 2006 03:46 AM

As a Chinese myself, I find it quite insulting that some western and Indian analysts attribute China's economic growth and achievements to their cheap labor. As this article shows, the Chinese are just as good in R&D as in manufacuring. It is time for the west to appreciate the Chinese people's brain power.

As for India. I fully understand that India has the potential to supprass China in any aspect. However, China, like India, is a very poor country. Therefore, India won't achieve that much by supprassing China.

jcage

October 29, 2006 12:05 PM

China spend more on R & D as percentage of its GDP (1.6%) and having a bigger GDP (3 times) than that of India. Also, China already surpassed Germany in the number of patents filed (1/2 of the patents filed were done by foreign companies in China and while the other half were done by Chinese companies). It clearly shows that China is improving her technology. Yes, China is still behind the USA and many advanced European nations and Asian nations but China is moving ahead.

Among China R & D product are the Dragon CPU chip, ARC CPU chip, pebble nuclear plant and its own 3D telecommunication spec, WAPI, rocket and satallite etc. China is trying to create its own core technology and its own standard to compete in the world. It will not be easy and it would require a lot of funding and desire to do it.

Blanket statement that China is only rise is due to "cheap labor" is misleading. There are cheaper labor in Africa and I don't see companies opening fabric and industries over there. It is the low operating cost (labor, infrastructure, law, technolgy) that China offers and the big market that MNC go to China.

KY

October 30, 2006 06:37 PM

For Indian friends who have not had a chance to visit China, please take a look on my thread where you will see hundreds of photos of tens of Chinese cities in all provinces.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=401687

Ray

November 1, 2006 06:04 PM

This year, PTC, the premier vendor of CAD software Pro-Engineer, registered a higher sales in China than any other country in Asia, including Japan and Korea. You wouldn't buy expensive CAD software package to make knockout products, while pirate software is sold for only a few bucks, unless you are really serious about creating new designs. China took a long detour moving from low cost manufacturing to higher value chain comparing Japan and Korea, but she's moving in right direction.

With all due respect, I feel India could do better by balancing development in various industries. A strong information industry is great for economy for sure, but it may overshadow other vital engineering industries by acting like brain drain taking away bright and creative youth.

Comparing with US's more than $35,000 gdp per capita, there is long way to go for India and China. And I deeply believe chances are they will be there together rather than one ahead of another.

Zee

November 2, 2006 04:20 AM

It is a fun thing watching through the entire discussion, the discussion obviously got heated up in the end.

In my opinion, the market today is so global that there is no good point in discussing how one country should overtake the other. The whole old mentality of beating your chest shouting how great your own country is and how the other country sucks doesn't do any good. To be successful in the global world tomorrow, you can't look inward. The Indians won't make it by simply ignoring China and it would be disastrous for China to ignore India. That's why both government today are trying to ally together. I think what's happening today is a great oppotunity for both country to get up and help each other so they could reach a greater height than each on its own. Being friendly competive is not a bad thing but being hostile and disrepsectful is something you don't want. Old countries such as China and India usually have too much pride in themselves that blind them from seeing the whole picture. As for U.S., yeah, of course U.S. wants to see India and China beat each other up so it can still remain on top, maybe your guys should think a little more about that... The Americans might like your Tikka Masala Chicken or visiting bars at Shanghai, but they could careless about your country being the 3rd world country, it is all about the money and money only.

In this world, being narrow minded and self-centered will get you nowhere.

SmartOpinion

November 2, 2006 09:16 AM

@Ray
What if they (India & China) surpass US? There would be no stopping for these two countries which would unite culturally and financially.... Combined GDP of these two countries would define new laws in Finance and business which could shake the whole world. There was a time when larger population was a liability now they are huge markets.

Danny

November 11, 2006 01:39 PM

The real Chinese empire called the Ming dynasty already collapsed in 1644 when its capital Beijing fell to peasant rebels. A Ming general at the boarder with the barbaric Manchu tribe opened the gate and surrendered to the Manchus. The Manchus took advantage of this and became the ruler of China.

From then on, the Chinese state controlled by the barbarians started falling apart. Its lead in Science, Arts, Technology quickly fell apart.

At the end of the Ming dynasty in 1644, China accounted for over 50 percent of the world's GDP.

To make a comparison: Ming armies of 1600's were equipped with cannons (the first ruler of the Manchu tribe was killed by a Ming cannon bombardment, firearms (1/3 of the infantrymen were gunners) while Qing Manchu armies were fighting with wooden spears and bows as late as the mid 1800's.

China lost its leading role in society because of the Manchu barbarian government. China was always the most technologically advanced nation in the world in all eras that it was ruled by the Han Chinese.

The barbarians devastated China.

Danny

November 11, 2006 01:47 PM

I am from Hong Kong. Please don't make assumption about HK people. I would never want Hong Kong to be independent. I support the one country, two systems.

Hong Kong is not a place for politics but a place for commerce and finance.

The last time I checked, Hong Kong was never a democracy under British rule, and Hong Kong has the highest degree of autonomy in the history of it as of now.

Hong Kong's capitalism is quite different from the UK's. Hong Kong relies on a completely free market system with minimal government interference including low taxation, no government control whatsoever.

In the UK, it's a much bigger government with high taxation and a much higher level of government control in its economic sector.

Hong Kong is rated as the freest economy in the world as a result. Our capitalism is the true capitalism promoted by Adam Smith which is totally different from the more Socialistic capitalism in the UK.

The UK did not have any different policies in HK from any of its colonies including India. Hong Kong's sucess was because of its hard working, intelligent, and entreprenuear citizens.

mys21

November 14, 2006 02:28 AM

To Danny,
Thanks for your sharing of your thinking. Actually I, as a Chinese, don't know more about Hong Kong, the oriental pearl. But I'm proud of her who contributes so much to the mainland's economic and social development. You are right. Hong Kong's success is thanks to its hard working, intelligent, and entrepreneurial citizens.

Pinnot

November 14, 2006 09:22 AM

It is true that India is not going to take over China. I hope this would ease the chinese pain here. Also true that there is a democracy in India. I can openly criticize my government. And it also true that Chinese can not criticise their government. Caste system is nothing to do with democracy. Caste system originated purely of racism. India should seriously consider about the population growth. But in a democracy like in India it would take time and money. The only way in India is to educate the people. I don't belive in Suppression. One thing I enjoy in a democratic country is the freedom of speech.

To the medical professor, Why was every western europeans eager to find India? And how was America discovered? Americans are not aware of the history of rest of the world. The main aim of British raj was to make indians poor. Like they did to the original people of Australia, Americas and Africa. But in India it was not that easy because there was already a established civilization. But they did achieved it to a larger extent.

I would rather see a wealthy and prosperous China and India and we are neighbours. That will built stability in the region. I think majority of the Indians see China as its partner rather than a rival. We need to work together. Common we can make a Chindia, nice name. The notion in the west and India about china being only a production market is absurd. Chinese are intelligent too.

To Andrew which dictator ruled the USA, Canada, UK, Netherlands etc? I have no idea. No I truely do not support totalitarian regimes.

Seeing how China is growing, my opinion is that they will achieve democracy and it will be not easy, but finally they will achieve it. I'm happy for China.

A normal Indian

Pinot

November 14, 2006 09:56 AM

To jcage. Why are you comparing Indians to a Hindu religion? First please check what an Indian means. It is a secular country. Indians are multiethnic and multicultural. A Sikh, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jew, Parsi etc all are Indians. Once again an Indian does not mean Hindu.

jonathan

November 20, 2006 03:56 PM

To Pinot: So is China and most large nation-states. India isn't special.

resham

November 21, 2006 11:03 AM

thanx for all the comments but i would like to ask that should india be scared of increasing economic influence of china?please answer my questions.

Jack Warren

November 23, 2006 05:00 AM

Lol at easterners counting out the West. Seriously though, the Indian side of this debate is the funniest, so keep going.

wzeng

November 29, 2006 03:06 AM

yes right, the opinions from the indian side are just like the classic ideas of western. i almost confuse by them. are they really representing the indian's true value?
on the other hand, most of the chinese are like a fighting dragon.they are boastful while mentioning the good news of china, but be cunning to avoide the topics when it comes to democracy and autarchy.yes,they are very smart.

vasanth

December 7, 2006 11:55 PM

Iam china expert in India.At a macro level, China and india are both are same at hard& Soft infrastructures,eco. devlopment.But at micro level, one is ahead other at diffesent levels.

West considers only low costs and economies of scale now , that's reason why they see china better.But Chinese are not aware of western cultures,attitudes,work type unlike indians who reads,breath english and hence they can understand west better.At longer time, India looks much beter and ahead to china

sbwong

December 8, 2006 11:09 AM

Hi 'China expert in India' ,
Don't know why Indians are so proud that they are 'English speaking'. During the 50's, it seems that the 'experts' were putting their bets on the Philippines to have the most potential for development in East Asia because it was the most English speaking and they were downright pessimistic about the other East Asian countries such as Korea, China, etc which were not English speaking.

But today, look at where the Philippines is compared with the other East Asian countries? Korea, China, Taiwan and not forgetting Japan as well as the South-East Asian countries such as Thailand and Malaysia have galloped fast and far away.

The facts are plain to see. Countries such as Japan, Korea, etc have managed to reach an advanced stage of development despite being relatively poor in English.

So don't be silly. There are other factors involved in development other than just mere speaking of English .

Wizardpro

December 8, 2006 10:04 PM

Silly comparison of Indians with Chinese and likewise the reverse. The US is still the current largest business community with the best technology. The logical alternative is the EU led by German-France. What is China or India compared to either of these two? Even if India and China merge into one, they are not capable of competing with either US or EU. Just check out the combined GDP per capita of India and China and one will see that they stand somewhere probably below rank 70 in the world. Hence Indians and Chinese if you want to compare, compare against EU. I will say that they are the ones that have made great strides in recent years not China or India.

nguyen

December 9, 2006 05:58 PM

Yes, Engish is the so-call widly used in the wourld. But when you travel to Tokyo, you will be suprised that most of the Japanese speak no English. Remenber, Japan is the second largest edvance technology and economics power nation in the world. Thus English is not the driving force to become powerful nation; only to know how!
To mention Indian will be become powerful nation.

Smartopinion

December 11, 2006 10:14 PM

@sbwong / @nguyen
In Order for business to expand internationally, exchange of ideas require communication on the same level. Japan may be the second largest economy but they have a severe problem of aging population with serious productivity problems in the future. That is one of the reasons for investments in Robotic technology. In future, importance of technology would be more coupled by access to international markets. One has to convert the technology into hard cash to satisfy the every hungry share holders and for that one needs huge markets.. When most of the world countries would be relatively rich and at par, then what matters are access to markets..


@Wizardpro
Look at the decline of Hollywood revenues and that's an indication of decline of American business in the future. The business model which is typically true in every country is that, a corporation first invents a product, then it serves its local market. After making lots of money it then starts acquiring international assets/markets. E.g. Hollywood movies/McDonalds etc. But now Hollywood movies are loosing their own markets. In fact influence of Eastern movies has started penetrating into it. The 21'st century movies would be ruled by Chinese and Indian. Especially Indian movies, 'Cos they have already captured their local markets and are hungry to penetrate the US/Europe. Take a look at Microsoft, it doesn’t invent cool products as it used to. It just duplicates products invented by other companies like Google or Netscape or Apple. But then it uses its operating system which is its access to the market and then distributes its substandard product at a cheaper price. That's a classical example where the access to the market takes precedence over the innovation of the product. By the way we are talking about not the GDP of today, but the future predictable GDPs of India and China which would grow 6-7% per annum conservatively which is much higher than 3% to 4% of US. Realistically, India is growing at a 6%-8% per annum. Restriction to the market is implied. Take the recent Nuclear deal between India and US. Hey if US companies want to access Indian markets then it’s no longer possible for the mighty US of A to ban exports of Nuclear fuel to India and put a ban on its procurement. Mr. Bush just seal the deal into law last week. That’s a slight indication of the power of growing India.. If US airlines want to reach within interior airports then it has to open its airport for Indian airlines which is going to happen.

By the way what has happened in US for the last 100 years is going to happen in the East but in a smaller time because of higher productivity, because of the growth in technology. The USA’s trade deficit with major economies is growing with no sign of return to historical numbers. Interestingly if US chooses to be a consumption economy then the probability of manufacturing innovative products will shift to other economies. Eg. Toyota innovating Hybrid cars, Nissan offering Fuel cell cars in the near future, Brazil innovating Flex fuel 30%Ethanol cars etc, Japanese companies innovating next generation Flat screen TV’s. Take the remote sensing Satellite picture market which was dominated by US until the Indians presented an alternative. To be honest Indians being smart were never materialistic and preferred to apply knowledge for growth of meditation and individual growth until the international materialistic competition reached their door step. So they were always exploited and now they are adapting and have mastered the art of free market competition which the West prides in. So just keep a watch on India. There will be no cool products innovated in India for awhile ‘Cos there is no need until all the population falls under the categorization of Middle class. After that competition amongst Indian companies within India will give rise to innovative Indian products. That’s still 10-30 years in future but please let’s not live in denial to the facts which are inevitable…

suveer

December 12, 2006 02:29 AM

Business Week seems to have made it a habit to publish studies of dubious repute that undermine India, and project China as "far ahead" of India.

I suspect it is more a case of the old "divide and rule".

A few pertinent facts: one of the reasons Indians are publishing less often in foreign jouurnals is the exponential increase in local publishing opportunities and the huge increase in regional and national science and engineering conferences.

Other studies have shown that notwithstanding China's seemingly higher rate of publication, in many key fields (such as nano-technology, theoretical physics, nuclear physics, botanical chemistry) and many other fields, the quality of India's research retains an edge over China.

That is why, in an important Japanese science/technology ranking, India was ranked just ahead of China (but correctly behind Japan, S.Korea and Taiwan) in Asia.

I think the Japanese have a better idea of India's capabilities (unlike the Americans), whose sole aim appears to be to downplay India's steady rise in the world of science and technology.

Prince Ninan

January 13, 2007 03:50 PM

Chinese were ahead of India because they started
opening their economy 12-15 years before India. but now after 10 years of reforms, we can say that India has produced more Mnc's, billionars etc than what China produced.
Indias can overtake China due to the following factors,

1. Indias Private sectors rapid rise after reforms
In China's case most of the goods produced are
by foreign companies. China is yet to produce a
company like Tata, Reliance, Mittal or Birlas
in private sector.
2. Indias banking system. Chinese dont even
provide correct statistics
3. Countries like US, Japan and Korea starts to
look at India as manufacturing base.
4. The gap between Indias and Chinas
infrastructure are reducing at a rapidly.
5. The advantage in IT/IT related services like
BPO/call centres
6. Indias main advantage is it is having good
relation with the E.U, U.S, African countries,
Russia (The country with which Indian Military
has stategic partnership) and even Iran.
The world trusts India more than Chinese.This
advantage will reflect in the next 10-15 years.
7. The image of India as the Laboratory of the
world has more brand image than China's cheap
manufacturing base.


Chuck

January 23, 2007 12:28 AM

Prince Ninan

You may have a million reasons that india will pass or overtake China. But, there is one reason that the Chinese can take comfort at, that India would never be able catch up with China, not even close, that is the human factor. Do you know what I am talking about? You !!! People like you, or self-claimed indian elites would never even know why India is India and China is China. The Chinese laugh their teeth out everytime they read articles written by indian elites, either from TimeOfIndia.com or rediff.com, or from Prince Ninan's 7-reason post.

David

February 1, 2007 01:25 AM

It is fun to read all these comments. Some are rational and some are emotional. End of the day, facts are the facts. No matter how you love your country (China or India), emotional patriotism does not add up your crediability. Just use more facts when you make your arguements, will you?

Mike

February 4, 2007 12:34 PM

Is really wasting time to write so much about India and China who is more better-off! Here comes a very easy way to find out, that is you going to have a look the poorest place in China, and then going to have a look the richest place in India! Finally, you will find out how similar these two places are, then, u will know who is more better-off! is just as simple as u can see!

stone_ms

February 4, 2007 03:37 PM

yes, Chuck. I agree with you. The reason I find why india cannot catch up with China is its ppl like Prince ninan, who always live in illusion but rather not think of how to change india.

Varun Shekhar

February 13, 2007 12:22 AM


I also think these China-India comparisons are hype, and uncalled for. They are two very different political systems. India will be happy to be in the top ten, if it is #2 or #3, that is also wonderful. China's regimentation, single-mindedness, collectivism and military style iron discipline won't work in India. India is a messy, chaotic, pluralistic democracy, for better and for worse.

Varun Shekhar

February 13, 2007 12:32 AM


As to Cage's sily, juvenile comments about separatist movements in India, one of the reasons these movements tend to be violent, is not absence of freedom and democracy, but a huge amount of it! India simply allows a lot of things to go on, that China and North Korea would never allow. In this way China and NK are more cunning and ruthless than India( which isn't ruthless at all) because you would think that with all that repression, there would be a large degree of militancy. Nothing of the kind! Something doesn't seem right here; in any case Cage, your boasting and lambasting of India is so crude and vulgar.

kartheek

February 15, 2007 01:26 AM

It is amazing to see this article attracting readers & comments even after 7 months of its publishing.

It was intersting and, to some extent, educational going through the comments.

I am an Indian and I am proud of the developments India has made in the recent decades. At the same time, I am concerned if India will be able to sustain its growth going forward. The articles by Mr. Bruce Einhorn bring out the potential hurdles to India's growth and the things that needs immediate attention.

Democracy V/s Communism: There has been passionate comments by many posters that democracy gives India a sort-of-edge over China. I doubt that - especially, the way democracy (read politics) is exercised in India. Democracy is being abused more and more by the petty politicians to sever their petty interests. Where else do you see new politcal parties coming by the day, new states being formed, and coalitions being made by the day? May be India is not ready for democracy yet ... as long as we have rampant illiteracy and poverty I dont think we can have anything close to a democracy.

I think China made a tremendous progess in this respect from a communist country (with little history of a major industry) in the 1970s to the world's manufacturing powerhouse. If China were to have the kind of "democracy" as in India, I doubt if it would have reached this position in such a short time. May be India would have made even more progress if not for its random-democracy! It is like anybody can do anything!look at the US - they only have 2 (major) parties that in the senate. And look at India - you have like 100s of parties and they make coalitions like crazy - how can India get a direction with this kind of chaotic democracy.

Caste system: is a non-issue in India now as far as the (economic) progress of the country is goes. Again, the only enterprise abusing the case-system is the politics (read democracy).

India's growth: can be mainly attributed to the outsouring boom. Outsourcing is happening because a) the companies in the West are finding it convenient to get stuff done in India, b) Indian govt is providing a favourable env. But what are the Indian people gaining? for one, money! But what about skill and employability? Majority of the stuff that gets offshored to India is pretty low-end work. It will be easy for any other country to replicate this 'outsourcing-friendly' env -- and we see that China is already on that route. At the same time, China is investing big time in its education and research.

In my view, it makes a lot of sense to look at China and learn a few things. Agreed, China has its share of problems and pitfalls, but they will be easier to deal with once China gets a significant amount of its population out of poverty. democracy + poverty = major chaos! that's the current situation in India.


Mike

February 16, 2007 12:17 PM

China now exactly follows th way of East Asian economy development that Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Hongkong and Singapore used to follow: economy industrilation, country urbanisation, manufatures, enhancement of education!! Only after those stuff get done, is to think democracy! So, i think China is on the right track for sure! a country applying democracy without rich economy and well-educated people is absoutly wrong! And this is exactly what India doing now! West world does not care India's development is on the right track or not! this is why the west keeps feeding India sweet candy by saying "india is the world largest democracy"; or "China only stands for short-term boom but India will win the long-term persperity in future" and so on! But, everyone in the west knows that so called " long-term persperity for India" will never ever come, these are only misleading words! the Chinese never envy the democracy in India but only feel sorry for them! becasue the Chinese is increasingly enjoying the westen lifestyle under the so called " communist goverment". why the west only calles out "China threat" but No "India threat"? is not becasue China is communist and India is democracy that simple! the reason for the west calling out "China threat" is becasue the west realises that the booming economy combined with "One goverment state" in China today is putting country on the right track of development, leading the nation to challange the west and the west feels the pressure from it! However, the west sees the developing India combined with democracy could never ever make India developed no matter how much it can grow! this is why rising China is not welcomed but rising India gains support from the west! look back the history, u will see the only true rising superpower were called "threat" by the west. early 1980, "Japan threat" were very popular amount the west perticuarly in USA, becasue the rising Japan almost kicked their butt in terms of Economic power! So, as long as everything is not changed, letz see after 10 years from now, China's modernisation will move up to a new level; India will stay right where they are!

SmartOipinion

February 20, 2007 11:25 AM

@Kartheek:
Looks like you don't understand the basics of Democracy.. Here is a crash course on it... Democracy, or for that matter any society is always created by the "Rich". The Middle class and the Poor just follow it and cannot influence them generally with some exceptions... USA is an example of how the Rich decided to opt for another institution "Democracy" to resolve their disputes with no intention of social justice... Otherwise there was no necessity of the "Civil Rights movement"... Here is the truth in one line... "Democracy as an institution functions to re-distribute resources amongst the RICH". Social justice is just a by-product. It's legal infrastructure is primarily used to settle disputes amongst the rich.

You criticize democracy in India, now when was the last time you really participated in it. If Roads are problems then Did YOU took on the "babus" and filed complained about it? What's your role and your participation in Democracy? People like you just analyze things but contribute no actions to influence anything...If you think that DEMOCRACY WITH FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND THOUGHT exists in US then Lots and Lots of LOL on that..... Just investigate on how "Diego Garcia" island became a military base with use of so called "Democracy in UK and USA".

Democracy in INDIA is written in English, a foreign language. There are 22 official languages in India and it's unrealistic to even ask people like you to understand legal English let alone any ordinary English. If people do not agree on a common language then the language of business takes precedence which is what happened in India... In future please participate in Democracy by expressing you opinion on regional as well as Global issues. On an occasion please contribute Monetarily to institutions who fight for Democracy on a daily basis. In this 21’st century one may not participate physically to social cause but can contribute money to organizations who participate physically for social justice.. So send checks to “Tehelka” or express a critical opinion on Bangalore traffic problem.. A small contribution by every citizen collectively becomes a powerful public opinion which can influence the institutions of power.. Example Mass Text messaging related to Jessica Lal’s murder case forced the local government in Delhi to rethink its legal position… I can go on and on… Democracy is an inefficient chaotic institution but in the end there is no substitution for it. It accommodates creative space through which social justice and business prosperity stands a chance….

SmartOpinion

February 21, 2007 09:33 PM

@Mike

I think you are not understanding the perception of threat from the West... When there is no democracy foreign governments cannot independently control their own assets in China. China's progress is to the extent that it is a manufacturing backbone of Foreign companies.. Just watch the fun when China tries to enter other markets with their indigenous products. That's where the resistance will start... China's progress is byproduct of Western exploitation.. Once the "Price margin" vanishes from China, guess what the Western companies will Shift to Africa... On another note it is China who is dependent on US not the other way round which is generally perceived... China is what's called a "Client" state for US. Meaning no indigenous challenge to US. The so called trade deficit is a BIG JOKE.. The moment US's trade deficit vanishes it would be a biggest loss to China then any other country... The trillion dollar question is this... US is a 12 trillion dollar economy which is the backbone of all the world economies.. If China or India can achieve an alternative on that scale then the real fun starts... But wait hold on before you start jumping around, 'Cos how can a 10 trillion dollar economy come into existence without any dependency on the US economy and that's the trillion dollar question...

Nigel

April 5, 2007 07:22 AM

Many people here are saying that there are a lot of discontented people in China because of the repressive communist regime, yes there are. But even in India with its democracy there are many discontented people.

Many of the protest are about things such as a shortage of jobs or the demolition of private property without consent. And I would be wiling to bet my life that the same thing is happening in India and the rest of the world.

The feeling generally in China is that local officials are the corrupted ones not the people in high ranking positions such as Mr Hu, Mr Hu is actually very revered and loved. So people banking on an internal split of China can begin to feel cheated.

I just don't like the fact that the Indians are banking on my country to fail, when I want theirs to succeed. Many of my Chinese friends have hardly even heard of India. To see this much resentment from Indians is weird for me, its like an unknown person mocking you. Why can't you just be happy for yourselves, but at the same time not feel angry at us?

india sucks

April 5, 2007 11:00 PM

The majority of posts by indians in this blog are based on fabrications and outright lies.Everybody knows Indians are extremely jealous of China.

Indian

April 14, 2007 12:16 AM

Even though I am from India, I think China will probably continue to maintain a significant lead in terms of economy and infrastructure over India over the next 30-40 years. Chinese are more disciplined and follow rules, while in India nobody follows rules and the result is chaos. It is only because in India everybody "adjusts" along with a "chalta hai yaar" attitude that the country has not collapsed.

It will take another generation for Indians to get fully educated at least until high school level, and then there will be some recognition of the need to move forward quickly to bring about self-discipline for the greater good.

Having English as the medium of instruction is not good for India in the long run. Children learn better in their native language. Anyway, language is just a tool to assess, communicate, and store information.

Of course no one can count out the Western nations. USA and EU will continue to dominate the world economically and militarily for at least another 50 years. Even after that, there will most likely be a greater distribution of power to the East rather than an abrupt reversal of the power balance.

In the end, what really matters is happiness. If an average citizen in USA is happy that he is enjoying a GDP of 36000$, or a Chinese citizen is happy that he is 3 times better off than an Indian, or an Indian is happy that he has a good family, culture, and is well-fed and happy, even though with a low GDP, that is fine.

Ben Jhonston

April 15, 2007 07:37 PM

To all self-praising Indians:

Don't accuse just the Chinese of illegal immigration and people smuggling.There are a hell of a lot Indians who are arrested all over the world for the same offences as well.It is not unusual to find illegals from India as well as other parts of south asia trying to enter Europe hidden in concealed cramped up spaces at the back of some vehicle on a very regular basis or trying to get into the middle east in crowded half sinking boats to look for jobs knowing well the reputation of arabs and their contempt for desis or washing up on the shores of North America like sea weed and asking for political asylum.Talk about India as being a country worthy of being labelled as developed and global power only when people seek to migrate to India and not from it.Atleast China can proudly show the world its measure of development in Shanghai and a host of other urban centers while the best India can offer is an eyesore like SLUMBAI.

India's dustbin democracy is nothing to feel proud of if every government that gets voted to power has the same corrupt self serving agenda and gets nothing done and who says India is more free than China? If having the freedom of starving to death on the streets like stray animals for hundreds of millions of impoverished Indians or having freedom and dignity as regulated by the caste system are the Indian's idea of freedom/democracy then I'm sure the Chinese are glad they don't have democracy.

I have been to India many times and travelled widely within the country and the apalling levels of grinding poverty was all too evident everywhere.India also has the highest number of AIDS cases in the world and increasing by the day and with a corrupt government and overall uncaring society in place,it's unlikely India will be able to arrest this catastrophy in the making.

I would agree that it is foolish to compare India with China as apart from similar demographic size the two share nothing else in common.China is light years ahead of India economically,militarily,development wise and even in terms of international prestige China clearly has the lead by a very wide margin.No doubt China has it's share of serious problems and challenges but atleast the Chinese "dictators" running the country have proved themselves competent enough to steer the ship while it navigates through stormy conditions.The same can't be said about "shining" India.

Indians should stop their shameless self-promotion campaign.With so little to show the world you Indians should concentrate harder on overcoming the problems facing you instead of thumping your chests in self-congratulation.

Ben Johnston

April 15, 2007 07:56 PM

It doesn't take a lot of brain power to tell why Indians in every India vs China blog are so hoping for China to fail.Thats because jealous and defeatist Indians know for sure that India will never achieve the same level of success as China.

India will never develop into anything significant as long as Indians are controlled by such a mindset as wishing for the neighbour's house to burn down just because their own house is a disgusting mess.Nice going Indians!! (Two thumbs down)

William Jaques

April 21, 2007 09:51 PM

Seriously you Indians,I can't help laugh till I feel like I'm about to vomit my insides out whenever I hear or read about all this "India will overtake China because India is a democracy and China is a dictatorship" or "India is the future world power" or even "China's coming collapse" jibe.If democracy was the pivitol factor in determining the development of any nation then India having gained independance in 1947 and having been a democracy ever since shoudda developed into a major world power by now instead of still being stuck in the same bracket as all those other third world countries that have the distinction of being named as among the world's most poorest,underdeveloped and corrupt.India may be the world's largest democracy by virtue of sheer population size but sure isn't the greatest democracy in the world.Besides India's economic growth is highly dependant on outsourced white collar labour from developed countries and lacks the internal momentum that China's economy has steadly built up and strenghtned.China's domestic market is increasingly consolidating itself and will eventually relieve China's dependance on exports for growth.Compare that to India's overhyped "Tech revolution" that only produces mediocre software,90% of which is destined for foreign clients,same case with India's call centers.

China's economy grows at double digits with ease while India's economy is still struggling to reach even 9% steady growth.

Militarily India may be a nuclear weapons state but HEYYYYY so are impoverished Pakistan and North Korea and possibly even Iran in the future.

Comparision of India with China is based on fallacy.Honestly India should be comparing itself with countries like Pakistan or Iran.

Agreed that China and India both have their share of serious problems but atleast the Chinese are working very hard to achieve their goals while Indians still have to get their heads outta their a** which in turn would translate into the first step out of ten thousand steps that India would have to take in order to become a developed country but evidently Indians are content with building castles in the air using their minor achievements as inspiration.

Optimistic

May 4, 2007 07:10 PM

I am very confident that China will soon become super power of the World. Already the World's 4th Largest Economy and the the country with the most foreign reserves. Having a land size of approximately that of Europe, and with the World's most populous nation, the rate & state at which it's accelerating and managed is applaudable. Moreover, China's one-party rule, adopting capitalism ideology, is the right way to go. With a single government, many policies can be implemented fast (as contrast to changing political parties), defintely encourage businesses to thrive, thus attracting billions of dollars from foreign investment. And these create jobs, which in turn spur entrepreneurship among the local Chinese (for eg Baidu) and Chinese who returned from overseas, such as US and Europe who find more opportunites in China now. And for those who havent travelled to China, I encouraged you to do so, perhaps few times a year, and you willl observe major changes that are ongoing, cities such as Chengdu, Suzhou, Chongqing, Zhuhai, etc. are prospering at alarming rate. Also, major corporations like Citigroup, Intel, AMD, Microsoft, Google, GM, NOKIA just to name a FEW, are increasing their presence in China, from R&D to manufacturing to Sales to Marketing. What are the pulll factors? Yes, I agree that the labor costs in China is not very high. However, that is not the only reason why CEOs of these listed companies choose China, and why not Vietnam, Africa, Sri Lanka, or even India. Other compelling factors to consider include the huge (or potential) Chinese market, the availability of wide pool of talents (the top 5%)among its 1.3 Billion population (for eg graduates from Qinghua to Beijing University), its developed physical infrastures and most importantly the thriving business environment happening in China now. And with the Olympics game to be held in Beijing next year, all eyes will be on China. Economics aside, China has in the past few months, displayed it's strong influence on the World with it's impact on the global financial market, sparks by concern that the Chinese government might implement measures to cool the overheating economy & the sudden heavy sell-down in Shanghai Composite Index. And since then, investors have dubbed SCI as the Wall Street of Asia.

SmartOpinion

May 8, 2007 04:13 PM

Ben and Bill:
I am loving your frustration.. That's the exact sign of competitive India.. India has already bypassed the Industrial revolution (manual Labor) and directly jumped to the Service sector..
Bill I think your are kinda small kid in understanding any kinda business matters.. India carved a market even when it did not had any computerization. That's the beauty... Now they do.. And guess what if they start having their own companies as their own customers that would be a biggest threat to the American Corporations.. Its better that they are serving foreign clients...
But its not far when they will invent their own products..
The Strongest argument which I have is that Indians have learned the art of "Free market" Capitalization.. China is a small kid where everything is state owned... So watch out as Indian Corps comes after you... BE SCARED :(

jcage

May 9, 2007 01:51 AM

SmartOpinion: Bypassing industrialization might not be a good sign. Many countries in Africa and Latin America has also failed to industrialized.
Manufacturing is not only doing plastic toys, cloths, but also cars, ships, PC, CPU, trains, aircraft and many more!
All, the G8 countries went through the industrial revolution before moving to service and intellectual economy while according to you India is skipping it as sign of progress.
Failing to industrialized is not something to cheer about.

SmartOpinion

May 9, 2007 12:59 PM

jcage:
Industrialization cannot be bypassed. This is one thing I fully agree with you.. But since high volume manufacturing is already achieved by China and US there is no room for any other country at the moment. So there was no choice then to jump to the Service sector..
But just read some articles by Washingtonpost or New York times and you can find that the manufacturing sector has started picking up. Tata/Bharat Forge/Kirloskar kinda Indian companies are already exporting manufactured goods. There is still a long way to go, but remember these companies are competing and bagging international orders. Jumping into manufacturing market would take time. But that all depends upon how the BSE (Bombay stock Exchange) would grow. Since these manufacturing companies would require heavy capital investment and that would be its primary source..
There is a place called PUNE which is becoming Detroit of India. Watch out for Pune.. Still it is just the beginning..
What I am trying to say in short is that since India at the moment is in Transition so one may find all sorts of issues. So it all depends upon what side of the coin you are looking at..
Since the Government of India is on right track as far as Fiscal policy. Indian economy has crossed what's called as the Threshold of progress. Now inflation is on the rise and the only way for Indians to survive is to make more money.. Since Indians are already diverse in ethnicity they have in-built capacity to compete.. This would help them survive severe competition both domestic and International..

Bruce Lee

May 9, 2007 09:27 PM

SmartOpinion you are an idiot just like the rest of your fellow day dreaming countrymen.You think it's possible for the service sector to survive alone without the manufacturing part? The service sector directly and indirectly supports the manufacturing sector but it's the manufacturing sector that produces the goods and products that the consumers need and buy and these transactions initiate the process from where the flow of money starts and then brances out into the services sector.The services sector in many ways directly and indirectly facilitates the flow,distribution,tracking and sale of goods but without goods there is not much for the service sector to service.

You say that India is being competitive by bypassing the industrial revolution to jump directly into the service sector? Thats just a flimsy excuse to hide the fact that India is unable to produce any world class goods.

Who's scared of third rate Indian companies?Nobody even knows them.

BRING IT ON BUB!!

gregory

May 11, 2007 03:35 PM

As a citizen of the western world I have to shake my head in disbelief at the level of hyped up bullshit thats being posted here.Who cares if China is ahead of India or if India stands a ghost of a chance of overtaking China when there are still hoardes upon hoardes of people from both countries still so eager to migrate and settle in the west by hook or by crook.Apart from the many legal immigrants who have chosen to leave their countries of origin for good and settle in the west permanently,the sheer number of illegal immigrants from both countries who risk life and limb to travel thousands of miles just to get a crack at a better standard of living speaks volumes of the fraud behind the hype in both countries.

Sure "booming" China and "Shining" India have the political and corporate bigwigs in the west all abuzz as they sense opportunity and profit for themselves but to the average westerner both countries are just poor,overpopulated third world countries that are bursting at the seams with too many people and with so many immigrants from both countries trying to gate crash their way into the west only serves to reinforce the average weaterner's perception of these two countries.

I have come across MBAs and scientists from mainland China tossing burgers,fries,coffe and dougnuts around at MacDonald's and Dunkin Dougnuts and there are doctors and engineers from India driving cabs and sweeping factory floors.With all the hype about the boom in both countries,one wonders why so many of even the brightest and best educated in both countries choose to leave their countries permanently and settle in lower end jobs in the west so what to talk about the ones at the lower end of the ladder.

Even though the western economies are in a slump at present,the citizens of "booming" China and "shining" India prefer to leave all behind and come to the west in search of better opportunities.Not even in the worst periods of economic recession in the west will any western citizen stowaway aboard some rust bucket of a ship bound for some distant land.I can understand if Afghans,Iraqis or Somalis are that desperate to leave their homelands in search of a better life abroad but BOOMING CHINA and SHINING INDIA!! C'MON WHAT THE HELL!!

Bottomline is it's because of investment from the west that makes the boom in both countries possible so it's the west that is the superpower.

Divine Empire

May 13, 2007 02:28 PM

All this China will collapse and India will overtake China gibberish is not even 50% based on fact.What Indians,the west and the rest fail to understand is that India is not the USA and China is not the USSR.These people only believe what the western dominated media spews out and since the west is by default considered to be the "good guy" from the days of the cold war by many gullible former colonial states like India,so every word from the west is accepted as divine prophecy without question.

What most other people fail to understand is that China has always charted out it's own course throughout history and never blindly followed others.Sure China borrowed ideas such as Buddhism from others then modified it with local characteristics so that it's integration into Chinese society would fit like a glove.Perhaps thats one of the reasons why China has the most indigenous,longest surviving and least interrupted civilization in recorded history.

Coming back to the subject,China adopted communism at the start of the cold war but never blindly followed the Soviet model and later China adopted capitalism without abandoning communism and without blindly following the western model.For all the pros and cons that China has to deal with in it's endeavour to develop itself with the best suited elements from both systems hasn't changed China's age old approach of building itself with it's own unique style of doing things.

On the other hand India experimented with socialism during it's days of flirting with the Soviet Union then quickly abandoned it in favour of capitalism when the Soviet Union collapsed leaving the USA as sole superpower.It seems that India is in the habit of aping whatever thats in vogue.

The Great Wall of China was built 2,000 years before the Berlin Wall was built and it is the most enduring symbol of a unified,strong,stable and prosperous China and it will still be standing 2,000 years after the Berlin Wall was demolished.You Indians predicting China's Soviet Union style collapse without proper substantiation are a joke.

Indian

May 15, 2007 01:00 PM

My message to fellow Indians:
Go to china once, before posting stupid comments here
The truth of today is that we are 10years behind them
Long way to go and it will take a lot of hard work 4 we get there

Vijay Shastri

May 16, 2007 09:22 PM

Why India will always lag way behind is because India is a spineless nation made up of spineless people who only know how to talk and make hyperbolic boasts which are always empty,hollow and stupid like most of the comments by Indian posters here.If India had any superpower potential then the first thing India would have done is taken care of the damn sullas who have given us so much pain for more than a thousand years and continue to humiliate us from across as well as from within our borders.Any great and proud nation would never have tolerated the insults that these rapacious sullas have heaped upon us.No,India is no superpower,never was and never will be.A few cosmetic achievements mean nothing.

Jared Lipinski

May 23, 2007 07:23 PM

The reason why China tops India again and again and again is quite simple to guess.India builds up a mountain of hype,while China quitely builds up it's economy with a forex reserve that is much greater in value than India's entire GDP and it is still growing fast.India was never any competition for China.The Americans in particular must be really brain dead for helping to promote India's fraudulent hype.By the way I'm white Canadian so my views are based on neutral judgement.

Indianview

May 26, 2007 06:20 AM

China's economic reforms started in 1979 and India's in 1992. Secondly, Chinese authorities have used their power to make China a giant factory which makes for the world & native giant population. After 28 years of economic reforms , Chinese people are becoming more & more affluent. China has invested heavily in infrastructure and there India is behind. Indian political leadership should invest in good infrastructure so as to spin economic growth much faster.

I read about India's no invention in the past except zero. I pitty that you ( like most Indians ) don't know that Pythgorus theorm was written in Sulbha Sutra ( a Sanskrit texts on maths ). It was Arabs who carried current Indian number system, algebra & trignometry to Europe and then Europe made strides during rennisance period. ( It might be appropriate to remind you that Western Europe & US did not become developed only in 25 years ! )

Anyway, I admire China's economic growth , but India is also gaining momentum after her 15 years of economic reforms.

Celestial Emperor

May 26, 2007 12:51 PM

A foolish Indian commented that India will overtake China soon because India's demographic size is set to overtake China's.I didn't know whether to burst out laughing or be stunned into silence at such an appalling subversion of logic.
China didn't achieve high economic growth rates just because it has a billion plus population.It is the Chinese government's single minded focus and determination coupled with the hard working and industrious Chinese people that is transforming the face of Chinese society like never before and it's increasingly singnificant impact on the world,otherwise any underdeveloped country with such a colossal population and most of them mired in poverty is a recipe for diaster.
The Indians have cooked up one ludicrous reason after another to state why they believe their country will overtake China.

First it was India is a democratic and free society while China is an authotarian one but now more and more countries in the third world are taking an interest in China's model of development instead of the western one.

Then Indians argue that India has proefficiency in the English language but now more and more people around the world including the Indian people's "venerated white mentors" are taking lessons in Mandarin alongwith many African and Arab people.Many of these people have openly expressed their belief that the future is in China and they want to be prepared when that happens.

Now Indians argue that greater population size matters.India is literally bursting at the seams with it's current population size with the overwhelming majority of Indians living in absolute poverty with no access to even the most basic of necessities like food,clothing,shelter,sanitation,electricity and education.Yet a lot of Indians think that having more of such people will propel India ahead of China.Sure India will be ahead of China in quantity of people but not ahead in quality of life of it's citizens.
I find the Indian way of thinking simply ASTONISHING.

jian

June 3, 2007 03:49 AM

History of the last two hundred years have taken away the dignity of the Chinese and the Indians. That is why both of us are talking nonsense here. Indeed China was a civilization with its economic might for millenia, yet it was only a by-product of her culture, it was not the goal. That is why China was able to maintain its superiority with a fahsion of ease for milenia and lived on even under foreign conquests. Both of my conuntrymen anh you Indians are very confused and lost here. You have simplly forgotten what you are. You are arguring with each other in terms of western vulgarity. Western civilization does not has a spiritual ground. Look at the history of the last two hundred years. It has miserably failed both humanity (Slavery, racism, world conolism, world wars, mass killing wapons...) and nature (Global warming...). Human rights? Freedom? Ask the Africans, native Americans, native Australians... Or you don't think they count? because both of you are only thinking of the luxury of the westerners? Have you lost sympathy for the suffered? A groundless culture can not last long. Do you guys understand??????????!!!!!!!! How long did the British empire last? The US empire is already declining after 70 years of superpowerhood. China's Han dynasty lasted 400 years, then Tang 300, then Song, Ming... and before, Zhou 800! China is immortal.

Wake up, my fellow Chinese. What our country has "achieved" now is nothing compared to what is suposed to be. Shame on you to boast what is suposed to an embarrasment of our own to our Indian neighbors who created the most spiritual culture in the world. We have lost our basic identity, that is why so many Chinese people are still trying to get out of the mother country and go to the imagined western world. We don't even feel spiritually at home! We don't know who and what we are! We have failed our sages who created the Chinese culture which is a source of eternal humanity and beauty. We are at best loosers with some signs of recovery today. Nothing to boast about! Nothing to boast about!!
And wake up to some (only some) of my Indian fellows. If India takes on the world, the whole world speaks Hindi, raher than you mindlessly bragging that you are better than China because you speak better English. India is supposed to be the most soulful country. How could you have fallen as low as irrationally insulting my country that has suffered at least as much as yours has for her such insignificant "achievements" today, celebrate her mistakes and pains and wish for her failure?? You have too failed your Hindi sages, the Buddha, and Gangdhi!

A people can only be succesful when they are true to themselves. Chinese culture has two sides, the secular (Confucianism) and the spiritual (Daoism). In long run, Chinese only need to adjust themselves more towards the secular side to compete with the west, they don't need to be unture to themslves. But Indian culture is mainly a spritual one. Indians will need to change themselves, that is turning untrue to themselves in order to compete with the west. Regarding this insight I think India will never "take over" China. No one will, in long run. The middle kingdom is the middle kingdom. One with some objective vision back in history or forward into the future should be able to see tjat. The vulgarity of the west, especially the US essentially disables them of being the true master of the world. China will be a supperpower if one wants to improperly term it that way. And a dynasty is much longer than the so called "21st century". But India need not pay much attention to this, this is not important to you. What is important to you is to be true to yourself, the spiritual teacher to the world, a true spiritual master that even the middle kingdom profoundly admires and the whole world respects.
Now, both of you, empty your mind, dump the western vulgarity, hypocrsy and cruelty, be at peace, be trueful to yourselves, and be free.

Jesvin Chandy

June 15, 2007 07:06 PM

Jian, I respect you greatly for your kind and lifting words.

It is true my friends, we value our countries based on Western morals. But please, let us not forget our countries' history and what we have contributed to the world.

Fellow Indians, let us be proud of the fact that we had invented the zero, invernted sterilization techniques, made advances in medicine and math, and that we live in a country of tolerance. Our population compromises of 17 different languages and many dialects and all of the world's religions.

But we must also pay respect to the Chinese, who invented and discovered numerous things that have changed mankind. Paper, fireworks, the kite, and also their modern cities inspire us. The leaders of Mumbai have strived to make Mumbai "another Shanghai".

Fellows Indians and neighboring Chinese, I request that we do not allow Western ideals and morals come between our friendship. India and China have potential and if we strive like we have done in the past, we will be the countries we were in the past.

Smartopinion

June 18, 2007 02:56 PM

Jian/Jesvin:
I think you both are getting emotional like a girl.. Nobody hates Chinese/Nor Westerners.. The so called VALUES you talk about change in time. Remember what BUDDHA said.. Nature changes continuously and whoever clings to the past or fancy the future will die premature...
What we are trying to predict here is who will impact the World economies the most and there by would be SO CALLED a superpower...
Take the Europeans and the US relationship. It's a love hate.. 'Cos US is still a big market for European Companies but they hate US 'Cos it's a total Capitalist with no room for any Socialism... The people who are blogging here would have a similar relationship with the Chinese or the US..
Let's take a hypothetical scenario.. Let's take a Chinese company which becomes international and grows in European/Indian/US continents.. Now lets compare about the worker rights in one country with another of the same company. How can this model sustain where by some workers have more rights then others in the same company.. You see what I am saying!!! China has to adopt to the world standards as far as democratic values for its citizens are considered.. And then my friend it CAN be a real superpower which can balance the US which I welcome as an Indian...
But that's not happening and hence the odds for other countries gets better day by day... Before you criticize US just read the history of some of the decisions made by its Supreme court.. Then you will understand that the US Supreme court guarded one's right to be UN CULTURED. There by IT CREATED ITS OWN MODERN CULTURE..
So don't take swords in hands and preach about "Peace and Solidarity" . Stop living in PAST and live the Culture worry to the next generation. Anyway they will define their own..
The only hurdle between the Chinese and Indians is Democracy Vs Communism.. 2 Billion people which are almost having the same value are suspicious of each other because of this fundamental reason.. Once CHINA evolves as a democratic country then that day would be the most glorification for INDIAN / CHINESE businessmen/women....

raquel

June 18, 2007 03:01 PM

What nonsense this Bruce and all the China-lovers spout! China exports petfood to US: their petfood kills dogs. China exports toothpaste: it turns out to be toxic. China cannot even make simple things like petfood without screwing it up.

As a non democracy, CHina exaggerates their stats and hides their poverty in labor camps where journalists are prohibited..LOL, funny how Chinese say 'Indians are unrealistic braggarts'; guys, you people in fact constantly lie, fabricate stats, and blow things out of proportion..that's why you dont dare have democracy, you prefer to lie with your controlled press and dictatorship.

India sucks

June 21, 2007 07:00 PM

ha ha raquel eh??? just another Indian hiding behind a western name.

A lot of softwares from India have been rejected by foreign companies due to the third rate quality and your call centers are involved in credit card scams and identity theft. What you got to say about that?

jian

June 22, 2007 03:37 AM

I like to thank Smartopinion for pointing out that my writting (on June 3) was improperly emotional and thank Jesvin for your positive response.

I think my basic logic holds true that we can only be successful by being true to ourselves. We must think in tens or hundreds of generations not our life times. And we must think of the destiny of a people but the fate of a international company... Smartopinion's view reminded me those of the Chinese youths after the revulotions. How similarly these two once great contries suffered spiritually. I belive Smartopinion is a sincere Indian, and I highly respect his good wills toward his country and mine, but in term of giving further argument, I am wordless. One must see what is truly important for oneself....

A word for all Chinese contributers regarding India-Chinese comparisons:
This is only the second time I post a message in this site, and I have only discovered this website weeks ago and didn't read as much yet, but it has already saddened me very much. I am very embarrassed by many if not most my fellow Chinese contributers. I beg you to read my message posted on June 3. Yes I was improperly emotional, I am regretting it (And thanks again to Smartopinion for pointing that out). But do please decide the truth of what I said. If you have a mainland background, I am very sure you will understand what I was saying.
We must remind ourselves that India is not just a poor country struggling for world power though this may be true. She is the only serviving ancient civilization comparable to ours in depth of culture and history. She has made many of her mistakes and is still making many of her mistakes, but so has and is our country. India has served the world by providing gallacies of spirituality without taking anything back, very unlike western powers, India is truly generious and noble. We must admire this. And we must feel lucky to have a companion in this harsh modern world, otherwise we will be very lonely. I understand this is Businessweek, not conference of world history, but regarding anything Indian and Chinese, this dimension of culture and history is inevitable. In fact, you may be unaware that your sometime insulting comments on our Indian neighbors are still a consequence of history. It is our unfortunate modrn history! It has taken away our sense of history, that is why you are so short-vision as to laught at a noble neighbor. True, some Indian people today do seem to do and say irrational things, sometime especially toward our country. But we have done worse, only need to look at the cultural revlution, we nearly destroyed ourselves. True, modern day Indian people are not perfect, but are we? Modern day China seems like a very dishonest society, nothing like a high civilization anymore.

A word to the author of the article, Bruce:
I deeply question your sincerity. If your initial motivation was an innocence or neutral one, after seeing the off-focus and quite often unhealthy responses, especially those from the Indian contributors, why did you still keep feeding similar articles with titles that were
insulting to India?
If you are indeed innocent, then I must question your maturity.
With respect I like to let you know that, as a Chinese, I do not appreciate your making comparisons between China and India that way from time to time, because I think India is too noble to be compared that way. Business and science do not decide the future of India, not even the near future for a country of this scale.

To my Indian contributers: I like to let you know that most Chinese people today don't know much about India, and in fact hardly think about India at all. But We should! We should be better informed about your past and present, and your blessed future. Please do not be misled by a few of my embarrassing countrymen here on the Internet. How many Chinese people can even read basic English? let alone using it on line. Just think about it!

yaseen malik

June 23, 2007 02:46 PM

India is the largest source of child (slave) labour in the world and more than half of young Indian children are sexually molested by their own close relatives. Look at yourselves first before preaching morality and virtue to others.

Dragon Fire

July 3, 2007 05:43 PM

Jian

Stop being such a politically correct wimp. You obviously haven't experienced these Indians and their backstabbing nature yet. Indians are covertly and sometimes overtly racist towards Chinese and other East Asians. Friendship is good but it takes two hands to clap and if these Indians don't desire harmony with China then it's their problem.China can crush India like an insect if Indians try to disturb the status quo and try to become too big for their shoes like they did in 1962.

Dragon Fire

July 3, 2007 06:06 PM

I cannot help laugh my ass off at all those Indian imbeciles who are praying day and night for China's collapse.

It reminds me of the doomsday predictions that were rife a decade ago when Hong Kong was being handed back to China. Well, did HK did a cruel death as predicted by those self righteous westerners? In fact HK has prospered even more under Chinese rule. The same contradiction holds true for China's 'collapse' and a similar contradiction holds true for India's 'rise'.

Indians are the most shameless hippocrates in the world. They never spare an opportunity to malign China or the Chinese but have no second thoughts about coming to HK or China to make money. As a matter of fact there are even more Indians in HK and China after the handover.

If 'free' and 'democratic' India is so much better than 'dictatorship' China then why nobody wants to migrate to India? Why every Indian wants to migrate from India?

Beware Indians!! India will die from AIDS or collapse from poverty and overpopulation before China collapses in anyway.

jcage

July 3, 2007 06:39 PM

So Smartopinion has changed name to Jian to praise his own work! Wow! I am not surprised at all....
Typical of insecure people.

jian

July 4, 2007 02:07 AM

Dragon fire,
Indian people's imperfection that you see has a lot to do with what they have suffered at the hands of foreign conquerers (over 900 years, the British was only the last, I believe). As well the Indian goverment was educated by the British (Nerhu went to school in England, I believe.), a kind like the communist regime has to extents changed the nature of the Chinese society, the Indian society today doesn't fully reflect its truer virtues and wisdoms and more peaceful nature as well. And the fact that China is superficially ahead of India naturaly causes a little discomfort. But if you look closer, Indian people's "hatred" towards us is only a superficial and sentemental one. It is nothing like that between China and Japan, India and England, black people and white people and so on. There is no need to deepen a superficial "hatred". What eventually decides the relation before India and China is still histories and cultures. Regarding this, I wasn't being politically correct, I truly think India has a noble culture and a noble history. I am more immpressed with this rather than some irrational insults from some of them. Our common challenge is western culture that has poisoned world people's hearts as well as the trees and the waters.
The only ones who are truly laughing here can only be some westerners who wish for the mutual hostility and the ultimate failures of both India and China (the countries, but more immportantly the cultures) so that they could control the world like before, most importantly control the minds in the world.
I don't worry about how Indian people look at us. I am beyond confidence on the quality of Chinese civilization and her culture. I am not that easily moved.

No, I am not smartopinion changed name to jian. Jian is my real name. I was born in southern China. Smartopinion's opinion is not so smart (though he seemed sincere). He only reminded me the Chinese youths after the cultural revolution in 1966 or the May 4th movement in 1919 (a movement of cultural self-denial). By the way, there were no such disasters of this scale in India, another reason why I praise my Indian neighbors.

Dragon Fire

July 4, 2007 08:01 PM

Jian

Since you are such an admirer of Indian culture, do you even admire the atrocious caste system? The caste system was created by the hindus themselves and is not the result of any foreign conquerers other than the fact that it was started by the first hindus who invaded India more than 3000 years ago.

These Indians lick up to the whites and are treacherous towards others. Sure the westerners want to escalate hostilities but it is made possible with Indian's willingness to play along with their white master's scheme. As such you really think these brahminic slaves can be trusted?

India is not the peaceful democracy that Indian's want the world to believe. India has hegemonistic designs against neighbouring countries including China. The only thing thats stopping Indian regional hegemony is a powerful China.

jian

July 5, 2007 02:52 AM

Dragon fire,
No, I don't admire the caste system, but this is because first of all I don't understand it and its history. India produced a Ganghdi (who I believe even inspired Dr. King in USA to earn dignity for the descendents of the black slaves) whose deeds put the west in shame. India also produced a Tagore who saved a lot of Indian youths from the poisons of the colonial education designed by the British. But China produced a Mao who put our mother country in destruction, and Lu Xun who taught the Chinese youths to despise the native culture. This is enough for me to praise India. Sadly, the later India seemed to have shifted from the road laid by the Ganghdis and the Tagores and partly became the one that you are very unhappy about (probably since Nerhu, but I am not sure). And the insincere praise and supports of the west (since they need India to counter China) have further clouded India's vision. My attitude towards India lives on two things, first, my confidence in the depth and strength of the Indian tradition of the past and the intelligence of its people will bring the true India back. And second, I am absolutely confident of the might of China and the superiority of her culture. In long run, no one can challenge us, the physical state or our minds. Physically, in 20 more years, not even the whole west combined can move China. I don't even understand why you are so worried? A hegemonistic India? If India turns out that way, it won't need China to counter it. It will be India's spiritual suicide. It will also be the final triumph of the British-western colonalism in poisoning an once great civilization.

I don't think of if today's Indian people are like what you said assume such unhealthy attitude towards the west and such harshness towards smaller states (Sikim?), maybe, as a consequence of British colonization, and a damage in dignity and personality. People are just vehicles to a spiritual tradition. When a good tradition is impaired, people turn mad. Only need to recall the behavior of Chinese people during the cultural revolution. This is in fact another reason to call for the truer, better indian tradition of the past.

Dragon fire, I don't mean to discredit your experiences and your thoughts. I believe in their frankness and your truthfulness. Certainly we shouldn't be foolishly idealistic, but we still need to try to see wider and further, otherwise we will be traped in the present. One of the virtues of China's culture is its lofty vision and broad heart, don't you think? I am just saddened to see Chinese and Indian audiences insulting each other that way and perhaps a few westerners lacking good wills laugh at us, call us "third world pity". As a Chinese, I naturally understand China better, thus I naturally criticize my countrymen.

Smartopinion

July 6, 2007 10:34 AM

jcage/Drangon Fire:
I think you both are one and the same. Since you thought that I logged as Jian hence I conclude that you are already using this practice..

Everytime an Indian points out about other people’s deficiency or the greatness of Hinduism the response from the critics is Caste system/Cast system... So here is my response to the origin of Caste system...

I encourage you all critics to read any Hindu scripture. ANY Hindu scripture does not have any definition of CASTE system.. Take a look at the Blacks and Whites in US. Or take a look at Buddhists and Muslim/Christian Chinese in China. It’s the struggle between the one who is in power and the one who is not. In India there were thousands of Kingdoms. They were speaking different languages and they ate different foods and they dress differently. This has survived until today and there are more than 13 official languages in India. The Caste system was like what China has as Communism or France has as Democracy. The ancient Hindu Science which is mother of all science was in Sanskrit and one sect of the people who have that knowledge created a system to have full control over it.. The same way China wants to have full control over Tibet..

So please DO NOT CORRELATE CAST WITH HINDUISM. It’s like correlating Segregation in South Africa as a CHRISTAIN PROBLEM. Or the TIBET as a BUDDHIST PROBLEM.

The highest evolution of HUMAN MIND occurred in India. The innovation of mathematics happened in India. The innovation of Astronomy happened in India. The Innovation of city planning happened in India. INDIA WAS ATTACKED BY CHINA / FRANCE / PORTUGAL / BRITAIN / JAPAN / and MULSIMS from the Middle East. Just ask what was the need to do so. Why did people far away took the trouble to visit/attack India?

India had perfected the Science of Meditation, The Science of Mathematics, The Science of Sex (Kamasutra), the science of taste (Indian Masala), the Science of Music, the Science of Architecture (Khajurai and 1000 of other temples in India).

The British were successful 'Cos of the NON-VIOLENT NATURE OF INDIANS. The Muslims were successful because of the NON-VIOLENT NATURE OF INDIANS. CHINA betrayed Nehru's NON-VIOLENT trust and attacked INDIA. Gone are these days when similar history will repeat. India will align with USA and will become VERY powerful militarily to the extent that nobody can attack INDIA again. India just bought its first fighter Ship from USA. This is just the beginning...

India knows it has the potential hence it's not going to waste time in inventing what has already been invented. Just read the book written by an Indian in US (Mohnish Pabrai). He has beaten Warren Buffet in Investent startergies and is already managing a portfolio of 300 miilion USD. What I am saying is that Indians are mastering the art of free markets.. If you call THIS LICKING OF WHITE ASS then I pity you. 'Cos as BUDDHA said the truth in NATURE IS NOR WHITE NOR BLACK NOR BROWN. It exists as an absolute eternal, whether you like it or not.

So Indians are already leadeing in this field of market valuation.. Chinese are still premature and the only free market is Hong Kong. If this is their model of growth then we already know what's going to happen in time....

There is NO EVIDENCE that Hindus originated from West and attacked India. That's the GREATEST myth which the British Invented in order to inherit the legecy of all the innovations that were done in Ancient India. They were afraid of Hindusim spreading to their country and this is how they took care of the problem. By using Propaganda.

If you want to know as to what the mordern Hindu minds are doing here is just a clue..

http://www.intentblog.com/author.php?author=Avtar%20Singh

So please DON'T confuse Smartopinion with Jian. If you look at all my response I think they were smart with constructive criticism but I guess you will always remain as a child.


Mojo

July 8, 2007 05:03 PM

Yeah Jian, what's a thoughtful person like you doing in this discussion board?!

Aound here, only hateful and spiteful comments are allowed. So get with the program!

jian

July 9, 2007 12:22 AM

Mojo,
My comments have been hateful and spiteful towards western culture, how could you have missed that?!

coolaid

July 9, 2007 10:16 AM

Its is no surprise to me that China tops India in any catagory. It is just a matter of China wants to try or not because sometimes China would rather focus on more important areas.

Dragon Fire

July 9, 2007 09:34 PM

SmartAssOpinion

jcage and I are two different people. Get that???

I did not say that the caste system is a product of hinduism. I said hindus started the caste system because India was never a single country until the Brits put it on the world map and unlike the Chinese, Indians don't belong to a distinct single ethnicity. I used the term 'Hindu' to substitute for 'Indian'. Nevertheless, the caste system is a deeply entrenched part of Indian culture and it has a profound influence on Indian's way of thinking, attitude and behaviour. Whether hinduism created the caste system or not was not in question, atleast not on my part.

India was attacked by China because India provoked the conflict first by sending Indian troops to encroach on land that was recognized as Chinese territory. China initially tried to resolve the crisis through negotiations but 'NON-VIOLENT' Nehru and his croony cabinet did not even have the formal courtsey to respond to the Chinese offer like responsible statesmen and the rest ofcourse is history and now you Indians cry foul about how China invaded India along with the rest of the Indian fabricated crap. This reminds me of my high school days where there used to be this Indian kid (a real loser) named Raman who used to make it a habit to pick on the Chinese kids by passing racial slurs, taking them to be easy targets because of their smaller physical size until the day I punched his lights out and gave him a broken and bloodied nose. The next thing he did was run to the principle and complain about how I attacked him first and how I had been trying to pick a fight all along. Typical of Indians, LOL!! In the same way you Indians now try to paint India as the victim when in truth it was Indians who provoked the war.

If Indians want to become powerful by jumping into bed with Uncle Sam then go ahead full speed, nobody is stopping you since India lacks the spine to do anything alone.

Once again Indians try to play on the success of Indians abroad to hype and boast. Whats so great about Indians doing well in America? America is the land of opportunity ain't it? There are numerous other ethnicities including Chinese who are doing very well in America but you don't see Chinese anywhere boasting about it because these Chinese are citizens of America and their success doesn't necessarily reflect on the land of their ancestry. If Indians achieve something of global significance in India with no foreign support then boast about it since as you claim that every innovation has it's origin in India.

Jian

You are right about the diasterous effects of the cultural revolution and hopefully Chinese society today will rediscover and re-consolidate it's original culture and values which are the essence of our great and ancient civilization that by far reached it's greatest height under the glorious Tang Dynasty.

Your praise of India and Indian culture is your own business but you are probably confused about India when you talk about the spiritual aspects. India was spiritual when Buddhism dominated there as Buddhism is truly spiritual in its philosophy. Hinduism seems to be rather ritualistic and supersitious in comparision.

I am not concerned about India as India is incapable of doing anything alone. Japan and Australia are also part of the alleged China containment strategy being spearheaded by the USA.

jian

July 10, 2007 03:35 AM

Smartopinion,
Of course, I am not you. Being mistaken for me may not be too bad. At least, it means a Chinese person and an Indian can share the same vision regardless the differences.
People exist first, then their civilization, therefore a civilization is always an open system. An open system means possible entering or even invitation of imperfections. If you read Confucian or Daoist scripts, they don't approve many bad things praticed in old China either. But China is still responsible of this reality. Same with the caste in India. The essential question is that, if the caste is removed, will India remain the truful India? If the answer is yes, then the caste is not in the nature of Indian culture. This is a thought experiment help to see the nature of a culture. For example, I don't think western culture with its many evils (such as manipulation of nature, negative world view, distrust in human nature, etc.) can survive this thought experiment.

I understand and symphasize your bitterness regarding building a stronge country that no one can colonize any more. Chinese people had and perhaps still suffer the same feeling since Opium Wars, European invasion and Japanese invasion. With this bitterness, China and India also both risk in being mutated into westernized states and live like them. If you have heard of China's Ming dynasty fleet (led by Zheng He) could have conquered the world, especially the Europe that later came to humiliate us. That way much of the world would speak Mandarin today rather than me blogging with my unnatural English. But if Ming China did that, China would have mutated itself into a Roman Empire and would have died out like them later. Our noble cultures are the secrets of the immortality of our civilizations. When we are building up our strength today, we also need to be careful as not to let this bitterness, anger or the desire to restore greatness mislead us.

jian

July 11, 2007 04:54 PM

I think those hypocritical westerners who want to creat China haters in India will only end up creating west haters in China. Be aware of the law of Karmar! Of course, those barbarians who once dared to sell Opium in the middle kingdom and robbed in the secret land of Buddha hardly have the moral to see that. A Chinese definition for hopeless people is "those who do not shed tears until they see the coffin!"

Smartopinion

July 20, 2007 06:50 PM

http://www.rediff.com/money/2007/jul/21research.htm

Aaron

July 23, 2007 08:45 PM

Why China Tops India?

- Tiannanmen Square
- Suppression of ethic groups
- One Child Policy
- State Controlled Media
- No democracy

jcage

July 24, 2007 01:39 AM

Why India could top China
-Child Labor around 44 Millions
-Massive poverty around 80% of the population living in abject poverty
-Having the biggest slum in the world in Bombay and New Delhi
-Major number of AIDS carrier
-Having the greatest number of separatist movement that want their own countries or nation away from India

Aaron

July 26, 2007 01:49 PM

Wow jcage, aleast you were able to get those statistics. In China they would have lied to you or even worse created an "accident" with you.

Jcage, here is some advice, talk to chinese people not those businessmen and you will get a different prespective.

You are just talking because you are probably in America or some democratic country. Imagine if you are in their shoes.

Oh! But let's no forget, business is business and let's not get our ethical side, conscience or "ten commandents" in our way. Right?

jcage

July 27, 2007 12:55 PM

I guess that Aaron is admitting that India has been failing their people for a long time despite what the British did for the Indian people before they left. British set up the first stock market in Asia by creating it in India, British gave the India language, law, government system and everything to ensure India success and look what happened after India got their independence?!

India went unscratched during World War 2 and still make such as mess of their country. Indian people should not be lecturing other about governance since they themselves are can barely get their country barely functioning.

Charles Drake

July 29, 2007 02:24 AM

Lets face it, India is as backwards as China when it comes to democracy. When you suppress 800 million untouchables, you are as worse as a communist state. But wait, if China's communism is able to push 800 million out of poverty does that mean communism is more progressive and profitable than democracy? Only in India would you have a communist country beat you in FDI investment? Yes, a communist country that had the Tiananmen Square massacre is beating India the "biggest democracy". Is it b/c India has the worst protectionism in the world, have horrible infrastructure, have 80% illiterate people, have 200 million people with HIV/AIDS, does not have adequate academic skills other than IT, has a multi-caste system with predominately racist hindus who attacks muslims, buddhist and sikhs, unstable and corrupted government, male-shauvinist family authority, environment and pollution issues? No, its b/c India does not focus on improving its own country and instead boisters on how great its IT is and how good there "Ind"-glish is all while ignoring its hundreds of millions of poverty stricken people. Please stop comparing yourselves to China, Britain, Russia, Japan, nor Brazil. Clean up the miss at home first, slow down on having so many young people as you will run out of resources just like China except you have alot less land. Be humble like traditional indians, work-hard and may the fruits of your labor prevail.

Aaron

July 29, 2007 11:55 PM

First, jcage, you automatically assumed I was Indian, when I am clearly not. "The British gave the India language, law, government system". No India was well off by itself before the British were even there. They had a working law system, business centers, universities etc. Even though Britian brought a few good things to India, they drained them into a debt of trillions of dollars. Secondly, most of these current superpowers like USA became a superpower because they used the black people (India didn't use any slaved to turn around its country). So we have to congradulate India for atleast overcomming from this debt imposed by the Britians and turning toward the right track. Also Indians only had 60 years of indepedence, while China hadn't been suppressed by anyone.
If skyscrapers mean a lot to you, than great. I would rather be poor and have rights respected than be rich and have my diginity trampled upon.

I'm sorry to say this by Charles Drake, you have lost all my credibility. Please your stats are laughable. "800 million untouchables" and the one that makes absoleutly no sense at all "200 million with HIV/AIDS. Umm. United Nation concluded that there were 4 million

abner

July 30, 2007 12:01 AM

I would disagree with people who say that India has lost of to china and gained losses because of the the british empire. India just go independance 60 years ago, in that time it has picked up itself, regaining its momentum and reclaiming its former position as the number 1 counter in the world. 60 years mind you is just a blip in the India's 5000 year history, so if one looks at India's history as a whole 200 years down the road, it will look like india always led the world and the colonial period and it breif aftermath was just a blip on the radar

jcage

July 30, 2007 08:07 PM

To Aaron

I don't care whether you are Hindu or not but I am saying that India was in much better shape many countries in the world after WW2. India was virtually un-scratch after WW2 when compared with Europe, Japan, China, Singapore, Korea, Russia etc..
The British did a lot for India such as giving English to the Hindus people and that is why many countries initially go to India for IT, call center and other back office type of work and whenever India is praised by western press, India is praised for her English speaking population and not for Hindis speaking population. Everytime that the West praise India is because of what the British did to make India strong now such as "rule of law", "democracy", "English", railroad, mail system, superior eduction, technology and many more goodies inherit from the British.

jian

July 31, 2007 12:30 AM

A sexy big girl is hosting a street party. Two princesses have been beaten up and passed out in the side walk. One of them wakes from coma first, still not remembering who she is though, with the intelligence of a princess, she opens a shop in the street and doing very well. That worries the sexy big girl. "It is supposed to be my party!" She says. Then the other princess wakes from coma too, still not remembering who she really is though, with the intelligence of a princess, she also opens a shop in the street and doing well too. Yet since the princess waken first is doing better, she is jealous of her and makes harsh insulting remarks against her. The sexy big girl sees the oppotunity, and stirs more bitterness in the later princess in order to use her agianst the first princess, since the sexy big girl is afraid that the wealthier princess may take over the street.
Yet the first princess begins to remember who she is, and it is only a matter of time that the other princess will remember who she really is too. Then they will acknowledge each other, abandone the street way of business, return to the palaces and run the town their way. Then people will look to the palaces, realize the vulgarity of street culture, and abandone the sexy big girl.

Aaron

August 1, 2007 01:17 AM

Jcage. I think you misunderstood me. We all know that CURRENTLY China tops India in infranstructure, education etc. It would be stupid of me to say that India had better roads than China. However, you have understand that China has it's fare share of problems. People in rural areas (approx) 300 million are still not part of economic boom. People, reporters for news broadcasts are being prosecuted hurting China's image. It's a bit strange that in a country of a billion there are no protests at all. For business China is great but it's human rights is worse than India and India's is also bad. Falung Gong. Tibet, Tiawan that may ring a bell. China I believe is forcing it's people to improve their image. I am not saying India is the gift to humanity, it also has its problems. Many Chinese who I interviewed do not want to go back to China fearing many factors.

BTW India may not be hurt after WW2. However during colonial times (b4 WW2)they were robbed of everything. India made its mistake when it decided to be socialist and join Russian during the cold war. China made its mistake under Mao Zedong.
In end China may be ahead now but it will face it problems. How can a country be open to free trade and huge influx of foreign goods and yet be closed to foreign media and democratic values. Sooner or later the Chinese people will have to rise to have their voice heard when everyone is watching probably at the 2008 Olympics. India will also grow but face it's fair share of problems

jcage

August 1, 2007 03:41 PM

Aaron: China has a lot of problem to solve and I have never denied that China did not have problem.
All your concern are valid and it would take time and money to fix.

Aaron

August 2, 2007 12:04 AM

To Jian,
I support Jian dearly not because he is pro india or pro chinese or whatever. He is actually right, foriegn governemnt would like to see India and China clash so they could benefit.
Here is question why hasn't the Middle East, Asia, or South America be able to produce a world superpower. It is because the U.S , european nation tries to divide these countries
Prime example, India vs Pakistan, Israel vs Palestine, huge conflict between African countries, Iraq vs Iran. Offcourse there are also other reasons. Other the other hand Canada doesn't fight with U.S or Britian vs France currently . I just hope that the China and India will resolve its differences so they can surivive peacfully together.

jian

August 2, 2007 03:14 AM

Good job, Aaron
Much of China's and India's behaviors in "modern times" are because they are put in the street. So are the behaviors of most Inidan and some Chinese bloggers in this street called the "Business Week". Do you think western media really treat China and India contrastly? No! they have the same purpose in mind: keep the two princesses and their children in the street as long as they can. It does not matter which princess tops the other, as long as they are still in the street, the sexy big girl rules. The street fighting of the children of the two princesses is a joy for the sexy big girl to watch while she sneers at their forgotten distant palaces. This is why articles like this one and its author like this Bruce always show up in western media.

A word to some Indian bloggers: Very few Chinese respond in discussions like this one, true, language and lacking so-called democracy is a reason. Yet, the truer reason is that the Chinese princess has begun remembering her true indentity and her destiny. She doesn't want to engage in street fights. Most Chinese bloggers are not just being more "politically correct" but simply being more Chinese than Indian bloggers are being Indian.

And, a final word, my friends, we are all the princess' children living in the street. We need to un-learn these street behaviors taught by the sexy big girl before we return to our palace home.

Good bye, all.

Celestial Emperor

August 4, 2007 12:07 PM

If India wants to be friends with China, it would be excellent. Otherwise China isn't going to waste time with India. Whether Indians want to mend ties or continue strained relationship, it is up to India to decide which approach it wants to adopt. Chinese are not going to loose any sleep over what Indians want.

Smartopinion

August 9, 2007 10:09 AM

Aaron:
I think your well wishing or anybody's is not going to differ the situation. Unless Chinese evolve to a more democractic society there would not be any real reconciliation between these two giants..
Unless freedom of dissent is allowed in China we will not have any meaning to its progress. Chinese and Indian economy will eventually depend on each other. (American companies Made in China products being sold in India and vice versa). That's the time the real fun starts..
If Chinese invent new technology standards then they will feel tremendous pressure from West Japan and also India. But how can that happen, for that an atomsphere of free thinking and dissent is required. China has to evolve to a democracy there is no other way to any more excuses...

Jia Ming

August 10, 2007 11:13 AM

Bruce,
Since the Indians are always either boasting their democracy as a huge superiority over China or using it a justification for India's lagging behind economically, I don't think the China vs India comparison is appropriate. Indians like associate their country with the West and Japan. So isn't it more appropriate to compare India to the US, Europe or Japan? you know, apple vs apple, democracy vs democracy? I am not sure if an "India vs the Philippines" match would please too many of our Indians here.

I think I can safely say that Chinese are quite content with not being compared to India. China is probably not(hopefully) going to "evolve" into a democracy anytime soon. So the comparison is not very fair to India.

jcage

August 10, 2007 01:51 PM

China is moving very fast in the filling of new patents while India is falling behind according to this report:
http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINIndia-28912620070809?pageNumber=1
"
Asian economies lead growth in patent filings, India lags - U.N.
Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:40AM IST
Email | Print | Digg | Single Page
[-] Text [+]

By Laura MacInnis

GENEVA (Reuters) - China and its fast-growing Asian neighbours helped power a 4.7 percent rise in worldwide patent filings in 2005, the World Intellectual Property Organisation (WIPO) said on Friday.

In a report, the U.N. agency said there were 600,000 patents granted in 2005, the last period for which complete figures were available. The vast majority went to Japan, the United States, China, South Korea and Europe.

While applicants from Japan and the United States owned 49 percent of the 5.6 million patents in force in 2005, more and more developing nations are seeking legal protection for their innovations, WIPO Deputy Director General Francis Gurry said.

India, however, has not similarly boosted its participation in the patent system. Applications from Indian residents fell 8 percent in 2005, from 2004, a period when Chinese filings rose 42 percent, Indonesian filings rose 17 percent and South Korean filings rose 16 percent, according to the WIPO figures.

Gurry said India's technological scene had not translated into a jump in patents, but a drive to open new patent offices should trigger an increase in filings in five years.

China's patent applications rose more than eightfold between 1995 and 2005, while South Korea more than doubled its number.

"Northeast Asia has become a major force technologically. We have seen explosive growth out of the Republic of Korea and China," Gurry told journalists in Geneva."

Celestial Emperor

August 10, 2007 08:11 PM

Smartopinion's not so smart opinions:

"Unless Chinese evolve to a more democractic society there would not be any real reconciliation between these two giants."

India had no problem kissing upto the Soviet Union despite the USSR being the leading non-democratic nation in the world.

"Unless freedom of dissent is allowed in China we will not have any meaning to its progress."

You Indians should stop pretending that your country is so damn important.

"Chinese and Indian economy will eventually depend on each other."

YOU WISH!! China is better off going it alone than engage in a partnership with a liability like India. If China forged a partnership with Russia and Central Asian states, it would be more meaningful. Of what use is India to anyone?

"If Chinese invent new technology standards then they will feel tremendous pressure from West Japan and also India. But how can that happen, for that an atomsphere of free thinking and dissent is required. China has to evolve to a democracy there is no other way to any more excuses..."

What excuses does India have for being so backward and underdeveloped despite touting itself as the largest democracy? What new technology has come from India? Even all the (mediocre) softwares that India produces need to be created with programming tools like C++, Visual Basic etc. and run through Operating Systems like MS-Windows, Linux, Apple Mac etc. None of any OS or programming language have been created by India or by Indians. Even the hardware Indian software developers use are all made in China. India should prove some serious innovation of it's own to the world before pointing fingers at others.

To furthur the point go to:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6939767.stm

And no it isn't a Chinese propaganda website.

jcage

August 13, 2007 06:59 PM

I guess that SmartyOpinion is going quietly or just change his handle to avoid answering any of the hard facts presented to him/her/them/it.

Whoever or whatever SmartOpinion is only living in serious denial.
India population is younger than Chinese population let's say by 15 to 20 years younger in average but eventually all of them will growth old. That mean that India only got additional 15 to 20 years more to get India in the right track before they all growth old.

India assume that India will be able to feed, cloth, educate and give work to all their people in the near future. However, evidence point the opposite direction since India take too long to get anything done eventually all their young population will growth old and poor!

Outsourcing competition is coming from different country in Asia (Vietnam, Singapore, Malaysia, Philipphine), Eastern Europe and Latin America.

Rei Lily

August 14, 2007 02:34 AM

Democracy, democracy...Were there no India, no China before democracy?

Democracy, democracy...Were there no democracy in Hitler's Germany, Bush's USA?

Democacy is only a path but the goal, when it doesn't make people better, it is worthless. Don't make it a fashion of the day. Do not mind China, mind yourself!

Wake up! India, have some back bones! The British barbarians have left, do not let them stay in your mind still! Rolls of higher rank characters in Hollywood movies (such as the Star Wars) speak in British accent. The Americans won the Independence war in the battle field, but still lost it in the mind field. A superpower with the arms, a dwarf with the brain. Does India like to be another paper tiger like this?

Do not look up to USA (a land robbed from the real native Americans, the true, complete Tibet), do not look up to Japan (a nation sold herself to the west, to Hitler, and bit the hand that fed her), look up to your true identity, your glorious past.

What has happened after Ganghdi and Tagore? Who has taken away the once charming personality of India?

SmartOpinion

August 14, 2007 05:37 PM

Hey "jcage". I was spending time enlighting Chinese on some other blogs. I love destroying Utopian thinkers...

You say
"Outsourcing competition is coming from different country in Asia (Vietnam, Singapore, Malaysia, Philipphine), Eastern Europe and Latin America."

Here goes again a crash course in business 101.. If price margin goes away then either diversify or move to other markets.. Indians are already setting up shops in cheap China.. Do you think that Indian companies will not diversify in other countries?? Apart from price I think outsourcing requires brains but "jcage" you are excused cos your brain will not understand that..

India started late but M&A will help it catch up with the rest of the world.. I hope "jcage" your brain does understand what's M&A. If not please don't hesitate to ask...

Celestial Emperor says..
"None of any OS or programming language have been created by India or by Indians. Even the hardware Indian software developers use are all made in China."

Go ahead be my guest.. Develope OS no problem we will give U a GOLD MEDAL. OS or Languages are just resources which just need to be managed with licesing costs that's all.. The real fun is "what's your business model using these tools".. Indians want chinese to make cheap hardware. After all they are proud to do so at a dirt cheap costs. Indians will just buy it at a market price and manage this as an expense.. Case closed... (Same thing as Oil. Oil is scarce but chinese factories are abundant).

I think I mentioned in my previous posts, Indian will not and need not invent any technology for 20 years. They are proud to borrow best business practices. But THEY ARE ALREADY INVENTING NEW BUSINESS MODELS. SO MUCH SO THAT HARVARD STUDENTS are preferring to do interships in India. HA HA HA case closed....

jcage

August 15, 2007 12:40 AM

SmartOpinion said
"I think I mentioned in my previous posts, Indian will not and need not invent any technology for 20 years. They are proud to borrow best business practices."

I agree with you so you finally seen that light that India is not the innovating nation but one of the many follower.

Also, you mentioned that India won't industrialized since India would simply bypass it like many other poor countries in Africa and Latin America.
In summary, India can not innovate and industrialize according to you SmartOpinion!
Thank Smarty for proving my point!

Celestial Emperor

August 15, 2007 08:32 PM

SmartAssOpinion says

"Go ahead be my guest.. Develope OS no problem we will give U a GOLD MEDAL."

As a matter of fact many Chinese programmers have already made their own Linux distribution i.e. different versions of Linux among other things.

"OS or Languages are just resources which just need to be managed with licesing costs that's all."

OK, then let's see Indians design their own OS or Programming Language if it's such a piece of cake as you make it sound. Shouldn't be too difficult for "hi-tech power" India, now should it?

"Indians want chinese to make cheap hardware."

You mean inexpensive hardware that works. Something that Indians can't manage to make.

"After all they are proud to do so at a dirt cheap costs."

HA!! You Indians are just jealous that Chinese manufacturers can churn out inexpensive products in bulk that sell all over the world. Let's see India make products that are cheap and sell in foreign markets.

"Indians will just buy it at a market price and manage this as an expense.. Case closed... (Same thing as Oil. Oil is scarce but chinese factories are abundant)."

Don't worry, the shortage of oil will hurt India just as much if not more.

"I think I mentioned in my previous posts, Indian will not and need not invent any technology for 20 years. They are proud to borrow best business practices."

There you go again you self contradicting windbag.
On one hand you Indians claim that you are more innovative than Chinese and on the other hand you claim that you are proud of being copycats. This all adds up to the fact that the only thing you Indians are good at inventing is B---S---. Or perhaps your statement is a poorly disguised excuse to hide the fact that Indians can't invent anything on their own and need to replicate what others create. This proves who the real copycats are along with being the biggest cheap talkers.

"But THEY ARE ALREADY INVENTING NEW BUSINESS MODELS. SO MUCH SO THAT HARVARD STUDENTS are preferring to do interships in India. HA HA HA case closed...."

Wheres your proof that Harvard students are flocking to India in droves to familiarize themselves with these new business models of Indian creation? Do enlighten us with the salient features and dynamics of these "revolutionary" new business strategies that have been fabicrated due to the astonishing intelligence of the Indian mind (as you self-praising Indians love to claim, LOL). Now you can see for yourself who the Utopian thinkers and day dreamers are.

If you Indians are really that desperate to achieve greatness in whatever capacity, then start by learning some humility as the great are always humble and Indians are never humble. Get the point?

Sam

August 15, 2007 08:41 PM

With due respect, I believe that this article has done quite superficial analysis. Well Records have it that India has always been the pioneer when it comes to the innovation and R&D.

West has seen its days of supremacy in last 2-3 odd centuries but China and India have been world's super power since ever. So at this point in time India is neutralizing the effects of British rule (of 350 yrs during which 3 trillion dollars were looted)

Now when it comes to the poverty go get your facts right poverty in India is 21.17% world average is 28%. But if given a chance I would still born as Bhartiya (or "Indian" as what gringos call us).

So next few decades and thanks to globalisation indian work force would be every where. Go prepare and yeah, bad news for you "colonisers" this time India is much more stronger and you got to find some other way and some other nation to loot lest you should die of starvation with your lazy people.

Celestial Emperor

August 15, 2007 09:38 PM

Another example of the unsmartness of SmartOpinion's opinions.

"Here goes again a crash course in business 101.. If price margin goes away then either diversify or move to other markets.. Indians are already setting up shops in cheap China.. Do you think that Indian companies will not diversify in other countries?? Apart from price I think outsourcing requires brains but "jcage" you are excused cos your brain will not understand that.."

SmartOpinion should get some brains of his/her own first, LOL!! Now how does Indian companies outsourcing to foreign locations benefit India? More specifically how would it benefit the impoverished Indian masses who form the overwhelming majority of the Indian population? Isn't it the objective to get as many (if not all) people as possible gainfully employed so that they may earn a living and add to the tax base, in short more people working,spending and paying tax means more money circulating in the economy. The more the cash flow, the stronger and more vibrant the economy. By shifting jobs overseas, the economy suffers if less people work, spend and pay taxes. India is not a developed first world economy to be able to afford outsourcing. That may benefit the companies involved in outsourcing but a handful of companies alone can't ensure the prosperity of an entire nation, especially one that is as huge and backward as India with a large unemployed grassroot languishing in poverty. Perhaps SmartOpinion thinks that it is possible for India to achieve it's impossible dream of becoming a developed first world powerhouse by running it's economy in the same way a handful of Brahmin elite run Indian society and hold sway over the more numerous lower castes.

SmartOpinions arguments are idiotic, LOL!!

Rei Lily

August 16, 2007 12:53 PM

As much as I appreciate India's cultures, I feel sorry for Indians like this VerySmartOpinions. The British barbarians have indeed changed them. Hope this isn't the majority, and hope not forever.

David Roberts

August 16, 2007 01:17 PM

Very shallow article. India started late and moved slow. She may be able to avoid China's problems such as pollution. India is a denser country. Consequences of rapid industrulizatioin are more fatal in that contry. It is wise to evolve slowly.

yasin malik

August 18, 2007 12:59 PM

will india ever overtake China and become superpower as the indians love to claim?

heres my suggestion.

indians always talk the talk but never walk the walk so ladies and gentlemen do the math bcoz your guess is as good as mine :-)

yasin malik

August 18, 2007 11:27 PM

whether you indians like to face facts or not will never change the fact that india is no challanger to china so get over it

Nathan Bates

August 19, 2007 08:07 PM

The comparison between China and India is meaningful when one only sees money.

SmartOpinion

August 21, 2007 09:18 AM

Celestial Emperor says
"By shifting jobs overseas, the economy suffers if less people work, spend and pay taxes."

Lots and Lots of LOL.. Really you crack me up. I can't blame you 'Cos you still have that "Centralize Chinese Government control" mentality. So lemme explain in terms so that even a KG kid can understand. If a company's price margin is eroded in it's existing market then it's survival is at stake. IN A FREE MARKET ECONOMY (how can U understand that) crating JOB is not the responsibilty of PRIVATE corporations. Their SOLE PURPOSE is to make profit. So creating jobs, taxes are a secondary priority, the fisrt comes it's survival. So if a price margin is erorded in it's domestic market then it has no choice but to go to another cheap market LIKE CHINA. I think U owe me some Learning expenses man..I am sick and tired of giving basics of Business 101 FREE TO YOU.

Celestial Emperor says
"Do enlighten us with the salient features and dynamics of these "revolutionary" new business strategies"

And why should I do that for free... There is a tool called as "GOOGLE" why not spend some TIME on the concept called as VOLUME ECONOMICS and then come back to me... Also research on creating markets in VILLAGES... Study the the PROFITABILITY OF NOKIA phones in European markets and in INDIA.
Good luck to you BUDDY..

jcage says
"In summary, India can not innovate and industrialize according to you SmartOpinion!"

Please don't make me laugh again man.. That's enough for ONE day.. Innovation is required in MARKETS which have evolved and your survival is only possible by new products. In a trillion dollar market like US one can only survive by creating new products. BUT PEOPLE DON'T CREATE PRODCUTS JUST TO SHOW OFF TO THE WORLD. THEY HAVE TO INCREASE THEIR BOTTOM LINE. Different kinds of products will have to mbe invented for emerging markets like INDIA or Brazil. IF YOU TAKE A FLAT SCREEN TV AND TRY TO HAVE BOTTOM LINE by selling them into Indian villages then YOUR ARE A FOOL. But at the same time you can come up with innovatinve way of selling commodities or communoication products and you may even earn more than the advance countries.. Enough of this FREE KNOWLEDGE.. Please you owe me some bucks here.. And be careful in your response 'Cos this LOL is killing me.

Sam

August 21, 2007 07:38 PM

With due respect, I believe that this article has done quite superficial analysis. Well Records have it that India has always been the pioneer when it comes to the innovation and R&D.

West has seen its days of supremacy in last 2-3 odd centuries but China and India have been world's super power since ever. So at this point in time India is neutralizing the effects of British rule (of 350 yrs during which 3 trillion dollars were looted)

Now when it comes to the poverty go get your facts right poverty in India is 21.17% world average is 28%. But if given a chance I would still born as Bhartiya (or "Indian" as what gringos call us).

So next few decades and thanks to globalisation indian work force would be every where. Go prepare and yeah, bad news for you "colonisers" this time India is much more stronger and you got to find some other way and some other nation to loot lest you should die of starvation with your lazy people.

jcage

August 22, 2007 04:02 PM

SmartyOpinion is desperate and making all sort of crazy theories to hide his/her/it ignorance.
According to SmartyOpinion opinion is:
India does not need to industrialize
India does not need to innovate in science and technology
India does not need to create job since India just need to outsources her work to better places such China

Here is link in which state India is running out of qualified educated personnels since only small portion of the India people are educated enough to work for Multinational Companies. I believe the myth that India is the laboratory of the world is about to burn and crash!
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aNtGr9ytmeYI&refer=home

jcage

August 22, 2007 08:38 PM

Finally SmartOpinion, please get a real education and stop spouting nonsense like you usually do.
You don't know anything other than write uneducated opinion.

I think many people in the West is laughing at India in how easy they are to be used and manipulated with cheap lies such as "The greatest democracy in the world" or "India the laboratory of the world" or "India the next super-power" or "India respects IP, India has rule of law, India democracy, India education and INdia English".
How easy to patronize you guys and gals by the Western people. Most of the west must be laughing their head off India.
Smarty, think what I have said.

Celestial Emperor

August 23, 2007 08:04 PM

SmartAss is trying to rewrite economic fundamentals

"If a company's price margin is eroded in it's existing market then it's survival is at stake. IN A FREE MARKET ECONOMY (how can U understand that) crating JOB is not the responsibilty of PRIVATE corporations. Their SOLE PURPOSE is to make profit. So creating jobs, taxes are a secondary priority, the fisrt comes it's survival. So if a price margin is erorded in it's domestic market then it has no choice but to go to another cheap market LIKE CHINA. I think U owe me some Learning expenses man..I am sick and tired of giving basics of Business 101 FREE TO YOU."

You can take your free Business 101 lessons and shove it up your #@*. How does India hope to become a global powerhouse with this kind of brahmin economic strategy where only the profit and fortunes of a handful of companies are imperitive while the needs of the majority grassroots are secondary at best. The advanced economies of the West and the Far East developed their domestic economy first before contemplating any foray overseas. According to smartass's moronic argument, India's economy will develop solely on the profits of India's large companies while the average Indian's economic prospects don't matter.

Indian companies like Wipro, Infosys and Satyam may be big names in India with stock listing in the NYSE but nevertheless these companies are not global brand names but mere sub-contracters catering to global players like MicroSoft, ORACLE, DELL etc. Just imagine if these global players were to find more competitive sub-contracters in other countries with better cost cutting edge, then where will the Indian "tech giants" fall back on without a solid domestic market to help cushion the impact? India's boom is driven almost entirely by outsourcing from foreign shores, therefore debunking you Indian's wild claims that India's growth is indigenous.

SmartAss is trying to sell his/her ridiculous brahmin economic concept as an alternative to those conceived by world recognized economists like Adam Smith. LMAO!!


Rei Lily

August 23, 2007 08:48 PM

None of the above is correct, the Smart or the Emperor. There is an economy first, then there is an economics. The mindset of a people determnines the nature of their economy. China is on her own, China isn't "developing" but creating. That is why her economy puzzles western economists. Art first, then art theory. Physics first, then engineering, vocal literature first, then lingustics....Economics is not a fundamental study, not even a first study. You can borrow some ideas from western economics only when you like to use them, they are conveniences but fundamentals.
Indians like Smartopinion: The british barbarians already left your land, do not let them stay in your mind!

SmartOpinion

August 24, 2007 09:48 AM

JCAGE says
"Here is link in which state India is running out of qualified educated". Lots and Lots of LOL..
Hmmm May be the Indian economy is sizzling hot and booming and JCAGE must be given a NOBLE prize for discovering the fact that India is short of qualified educated personnels. Vow you are you really are something mann...

Celestial Emperor says
"Indian companies like Wipro, Infosys and Satyam may be big names in India with stock listing in the NYSE but nevertheless these companies are not global brand names but mere sub-contracters catering to global players like MicroSoft, ORACLE, DELL etc."
LOL LOl LOL LOL. Thank you for putting Wipro, Infosys and Satyam in the same league as MicroSoft, ORACLE, DELL. You are right. There are 128+ countries in the whole world and MicroSoft, ORACLE, DELL are really crazy to work only with Indian companies. They must listen to you for your EXPERT advice on to working with Chinese HARDWARE experts in solving US business problems.. That's real genius mann.. Keep it up.. I can see a emerging entrepreneur in this Emperor.

You brought the subject about "brahmin" and no offence taken. But here are some facts about Indians in India and in the US and this is just the begnning... Please read the LAST COMMENT

The so called "brahmins" discovered
a) The science of mathematics (Vedic mathematics which the west is learning now)
b) The science of meditation (Yoga)
c) The science of music (Indian classical music)
d) The science of dance (Indian classical music)
e) The science of taste (masalas)
f) The science of all science namely Rig Veda, Yajur Veda, Athrva Veda, Sama Veda
g) The science of Architecture
i) The science of Astrology
j) The science of Astronomy
k) The Science of Sex (Kamasutra)

Q. Who is the GM of Hewlett Packard (hp) ?
A. Rajiv Gupta

Q. Who is the creator of Pentium chip (needs no introduction as 90% of the today's computers (including CHEAP) run on it)?
A. Vinod Dahm


Q. Who is the founder and creator of Hotmail (Hotmail is world's No.1 web based email program)?
A. Sabeer Bhatia

Q. Who is the president of AT & T-Bell Labs (AT & T-Bell Labs is the creator of program languages such as C, C++, Unix to name a few)?
A. Arun Netravalli

Q. Who are the Chief Executives of CitiBank, Mckensey & Stanchart?
A. Victor Menezes, Rajat Gupta, and Rana Talwar.

Q. Who are the Chief Executives of Pepsi?
A. An Indian born WOMAN Indra Nooyi.


Some of the following facts published by German magazine, which deals with WORLD HISTORY FACTS ABOUT INDIA.

1. India never invaded any country in her last 1000 years of history.

2. India invented the Number system. Zero was invented by Aryabhatta.

3. The world's first University was established in Takshila in 700BC. More than 10,500 students from all over the world studied more than 60 subjects. The University of Nalanda built in the 4 th century BC was one of the greatest achievements of ancient India in the field of education.

4. According to the Forbes magazine, Sanskrit is the most suitable language for computer software.

5. Ayurveda is the earliest school of medicine known to humans.

6. Although western media portray modern images of India as poverty striken and underdeveloped through political corruption, India was once the richest empire on earth.

7. The art of navigation was born in the river Sindh 5000 years ago. The very word 'Navigation' is derived from the Sanskrit word NAVGATIH.

8. The value of pi was first calculated by Budhayana, and he explained the concept of
what is now k! nown as the Pythagorean Theorem. British scholars have last year (1999) officially published that Budhayan's works dates to the 6 th Century which is long before the European mathematicians.

9. Algebra, trigonometry and calculus came from India . Quadratic equations were by Sridharacharya in the 11 th Century; the largest numbers the Greeks and the Romans used were 106 whereas Indians used numbers as big as 10 53.

10. According to the Gemmological Institute of America, up until 1896, India was the only source of diamonds to the world.

11. USA based IEEE has proved what has been a century-old suspicion amongst academics that the pioneer of wireless communication was Professor Jagdeesh Bose and not Marconi.

12. The earliest reservoir and dam for irrigation was built in Saurashtra.

13. Chess was invented in India .

14. Sushruta is the father of surgery. 2600 years ago he and health scientists of his time conducted surgeries like cesareans, cataract, fractures and urinary stones. Usage of anaesthesia was well known in ancient India .

15. When many cultures in the world were only nomadic forest dwellers over 5000 years ago, Indians established Harappan culture in Sindhu Valley ( Indus Valley Civilisation).

16. The place value system, the decimal system was developed in India in 100 BC.

Quotes about India .

We owe a lot to the Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made.
Albert Einstein.


India is the cradle of the human race, the birthplace of human speech, the mother of history, the grandmother of legend and the great grand mother of tradition.
Mark Twain.

If there is one place on the face of earth where all dreams of living men have found a home from the very earliest days when man began the dream of existence, it is India .
French scholar Romain Rolland.

India conquered and dominated China culturally for 20 centuries without ever having to send a single soldier across her border.
Hu Shih
(former Chinese ambassador to USA )

iranian

August 24, 2007 08:48 PM

indians should be realisitc and make comparisions with pakistan. It would be more fitting

JCage

August 27, 2007 01:09 PM

smartyopinion again spouting irrelevant and made up story to distract the people from the main point of why India is behind China.
Obviously, you got nothing to show so you have to cut and pasted lies and comic story lies to confused reader.
This article quality leave much to be desired and it require more research before putting it on a magazine opinion section.

guqin

August 31, 2007 02:11 AM

"To boast is a fool's idea of glory."
(by Rabindranath Tagore and Bruce Lee)

SmartOpinion

August 31, 2007 12:55 PM

"Jcage"

If you see all my reponses they were really Intelligent and to the point. All your reponses are personal attacks that includes name calling.. So I responded your -ive response with well known +ive facts about India..

Here is the thing.. Indians were always advanced and democratic. In fact people criticize them to be too democractic.. The only thing that was missing with them was Capitalism.. Now that Indians have understood the fundamentals of it they are on a long ride towards progress. They will take US and Europe and Japan along with them.. Even in the poorest of the poor conditions you will find a mathematician like C V Raman or a poet like Rabindranath Tagore or a innovater like Jagdish Bose.
Since Indians are pluraristic society their progress will have their own pace.. But the party has just started and we are seeing billionares in India. People who don't joint it would be misrably for a long long time...

Celestial Emperor

September 2, 2007 03:35 PM

SmartAss barks

"Thank you for putting Wipro, Infosys and Satyam in the same league as MicroSoft, ORACLE, DELL. You are right. There are 128+ countries in the whole world and MicroSoft, ORACLE, DELL are really crazy to work only with Indian companies. They must listen to you for your EXPERT advice on to working with Chinese HARDWARE experts in solving US business problems.. That's real genius mann.. Keep it up.. I can see a emerging entrepreneur in this Emperor."

First of all I didn't place those Indian companies at the same level as Microsoft and the other global IT giants. I said they were mere sub-contractors working for those giants i.e. Indian coolies hauling the white sahib's luggage. I see a real intellectual in this Smart------.

jcage

September 2, 2007 09:56 PM

SmartyOpinion

If pointing out Hindus Nationalistic propaganda, outright lies, misleading informations and wrong logic is called personal attack, the so be it.
This type of Hindus Nationalism is growing in India in a daily basis and they are distorting India textbook story making up lies and myth of Hindus superiority that SmartyOpinion was kind to provide in his/her/its messages.

Democracy and Caste are not equivalent and you have justified racism and caste discrimination by ignoring the lower caste people by saying the India was always a democratic society while Brahamim such as yourself are enjoying the good life many illions and millions of the lower caste Hindus and non-Hindus are living in subhuman condition and the India government is not doing anything but to enrich the upper caste such as yourself!

You had stated in the past that India does not need to industrialized and it does not need to create new technology (No Innovation). I don't agree with such as type of thinking and if that bother you, well I am sorry to hurt your feeling.

Also, Bruce should stop making more of this type of India vs. China since your shallow research is not even fit to be published in opinion page.

Celestial Emperor

September 3, 2007 03:25 PM

SmartAss

All your claims about Indian's alleged achievements have been pulled straight out from jingoistic Indian websites.

As for the pentium chip, it was built upon Intel's existing x86 technology but smartass trys to boast as if Indian's invented microprocessors from scratch. Same with Hotmail, an Indian may have created the email application that became popular with online users but the concept for the technology that created email is not of Indian origin.

Like I said before whats so great about Indians doing well in other countries where opportunities for advancement are available? This only shows that Indians cannot create opportunities for themselves in India despite all the Shining India slogans.

As for all your other claims about India being the originator for just about everything in the world, refer to the first paragraph.

Anyway here are what SmartAss claims:

"Some of the following facts published by German magazine, which deals with WORLD HISTORY FACTS ABOUT INDIA."

"India never invaded any country in her last 1000 years of history."

Thats more because India was never militarily capable of invading any other country throughout her history and not because of "peaceful" Indians.

"India invented the Number system. Zero was invented by Aryabhatta."

The abacus was well in use before the adoption of the zero related numeric system and is still being used.

"The world's first University was established in Takshila in 700BC. More than 10,500 students from all over the world studied more than 60 subjects. The University of Nalanda built in the 4 th century BC was one of the greatest achievements of ancient India in the field of education."

The university at Nalanda (and Taxila) was destroyed centuries ago and Indians despite their well hyped smartness could not build it back and now need Chinese assistance to restore Nalanda university.

"According to the Forbes magazine, Sanskrit is the most suitable language for computer software."

The why are Indian developers still programming in English? Even Chinese developers are using softwares in their own language.

"Ayurveda is the earliest school of medicine known to humans."

Traditional Chinese medicine such as acupunture are several thousand years old and are finding greater acceptance outside China.

"Although western media portray modern images of India as poverty striken and underdeveloped through political corruption, India was once the richest empire on earth."

India was never a unified empire until the mughals then the brits. The only Indian/hindu empire under Asoka lasted only 50 years.

"The art of navigation was born in the river Sindh 5000 years ago. The very word 'Navigation' is derived from the Sanskrit word NAVGATIH."

Then how come Indians were never a maritime power like China under the Ming dynasty and the Europeans later on?


The rest of SmartAss's BLAH BLAH BLAH:

"The value of pi was first calculated by Budhayana, and he explained the concept of
what is now k! nown as the Pythagorean Theorem. British scholars have last year (1999) officially published that Budhayan's works dates to the 6 th Century which is long before the European mathematicians.

9. Algebra, trigonometry and calculus came from India . Quadratic equations were by Sridharacharya in the 11 th Century; the largest numbers the Greeks and the Romans used were 106 whereas Indians used numbers as big as 10 53.

10. According to the Gemmological Institute of America, up until 1896, India was the only source of diamonds to the world.

11. USA based IEEE has proved what has been a century-old suspicion amongst academics that the pioneer of wireless communication was Professor Jagdeesh Bose and not Marconi.

12. The earliest reservoir and dam for irrigation was built in Saurashtra.

13. Chess was invented in India .

14. Sushruta is the father of surgery. 2600 years ago he and health scientists of his time conducted surgeries like cesareans, cataract, fractures and urinary stones. Usage of anaesthesia was well known in ancient India .

15. When many cultures in the world were only nomadic forest dwellers over 5000 years ago, Indians established Harappan culture in Sindhu Valley ( Indus Valley Civilisation).

16. The place value system, the decimal system was developed in India in 100 BC.


Quotes about India .

We owe a lot to the Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made.
Albert Einstein.


India is the cradle of the human race, the birthplace of human speech, the mother of history, the grandmother of legend and the great grand mother of tradition.
Mark Twain.

If there is one place on the face of earth where all dreams of living men have found a home from the very earliest days when man began the dream of existence, it is India .
French scholar Romain Rolland."


Even if most of all these claims do have factual support then India should have made a far greater impact on the world today. By all means India should have been the world's first great state/empire/superpower instead of Persia under the Achaemenid dynasty.


And finally SmartAss says:

"Please read the LAST COMMENT

India conquered and dominated China culturally for 20 centuries without ever having to send a single soldier across her border.
Hu Shih
(former Chinese ambassador to USA )"

OK so apart from Buddhism name any other cultural import to China from India? Don't misinterprit the Chinese envoy's diplomatic and conciliatory language as an excuse to heap undeserved praises on yourselves. Read some history and you'll find that dozens of Indian kingdoms including Kashmir were under Chinese vassalage during the period of the Tang dynasty.

So whats next on the list of India's (alleged) achievemnets? I'll bet it's gonna be:

1. Some Indian discovered America before Colombus.
2. Some Indian discovered the planets of the
solar system before Galileo, Capernicous etc.
3. Some Indian discovered gravity before Newton.
4. Indians invented gunpowder before the
Chinese.
5. Some Indian taught Bruce Lee Kung Fu. LMAO!!
6. Indians invented jet engines, ballistic
missiles, radars and computers before the
Nazis.
7. Some Indian is actually responsible for
the invention of the A-Bomb.
8. Indians went to the moon and landed on it way
before Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin.

Yeah right I suppose even the legendary Nicola Tesla, reputed as the greatest scientific genius of the 20th century owes the Indians. LOL!!

What India has an abundance of are liars and boasters like this SmartAss.


Celestial Emperor

September 8, 2007 01:49 PM

SmartAss says:

"Here is the thing.. Indians were always advanced and democratic. In fact people criticize them to be too democractic.."

Indian society is and has been amongst the most supersitous and backward in the world, you call that advanced? You call the caste system democratic?

"The only thing that was missing with them was Capitalism.. Now that Indians have understood the fundamentals of it they are on a long ride towards progress."

Capitalism is a western invention. Since as you claim that Indians were the inventors of everything then why wasn't Capitalism invented in India? By all means Indians should have been the Innovators of Capitalism long before the whites.

"They will take US and Europe and Japan along with them.."

First let's see people from these countries wanting to migrate to India instead of Indians migrating to these countries.

"Even in the poorest of the poor conditions you will find a mathematician like C V Raman or a poet like Rabindranath Tagore or a innovater like Jagdish Bose."

Innovative in fabricating tall tales like this SmartAss I suppose. LOL!!

"Since Indians are pluraristic society their progress will have their own pace.."

Isn't 3,000 years of India's vedic/hindu society a long enough period for India to have made significant progress and match Indian's boasts with facts instead of India being a slave state to foreign masters throughout that period? The Persians, Greeks, Romans and others rose and fell but left their mark in history but India has not been able to do any such thing other than Indians boasting forever. Even the mechanisms of the Indian state and society are of British or western origin.

"But the party has just started and we are seeing billionares in India. People who don't joint it would be misrably for a long long time..."

India will be a miserable nation for a very very long time with a handful of brahmin billionaires and a hell lot of poor lower castes toiling for these upper caste vultures because thats how the hierarchical Indian/Hindu caste system works.

Read the article provided by the link below then talk about Chinese sweatshops.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=479571&in_page_id=1770

Chanakya

September 10, 2007 04:11 PM

Hey fool Celestial,

Are you really a Chinese, I really have doubt about it.You can reveal by urself, if u want to speak truth. You really a half knowledge fool and a big idiot, close all your nine holes, first read the History and contemporary issues, you know nothing about Chinese or Indian history and culture, just speaking blah blahhhh.

China is not donating money to Nalanda University, its just participating in that project along with other East Asian countries to revive that old university.

Who are now Billionaires in India, many of the are not belongs to Brahmin's-- Ambani (Trader's caste), Premji (Muslim), Tatas (Parsi), etc.,, you bloody fool shut up ur dirty mouth.

You put all your efforts on your career or study, improve yourself and help other your fellow countrymen, don't show your stupidity and half knowledge here. If you want to think and feel, India is a poor, inefficient and underdeveloped, haaa, no problem you are free to do so, nobody stop you, even u can think India is 1000 years behind China, are you happy now. Indians don't feel anything, what u think. You may try get some money from Chinese government, if they feel happy that, you doing good job criticizing and speaking blah blah about India. Haaa, Good luck Idiot.


Celestial Emperor

September 14, 2007 07:48 PM

Get a proper education first fool then attempt to post comments

JayeedL

September 16, 2007 09:13 PM

Let's look at this way people:

India is attaining a rank through a deficient democracy and a whole slate of problems. Other superpowers are amazed of how this miracle has worked out, and the Chinese have reached this level through harsh government control and strict constriction of rights of the people.

India could very well impose a one-child policy, tear down the houses of many just to create space for entertainment venues (eg. the 2008 Olympics in China), and kill its citizens for lavish and selfish reasons just like China and it's world authority would mere China's .

But my nation has chosen a more righteous path. The hard work, blood, sweat, and determination of people like J. Nehru, all the Gandhis, JRD and Ratan Tata, Manmohan Singh, Yash Chopra and many others' are the cause of India's stand today. They have helped established an educational system which produces some of the most talented workforces in the world, assured equality and justice and HUMAN RIGHTS, and set up a succesful and booming economy.

Bruce and others may rank India under China and the many other superpowers, but I can forsee a future where India will take center stage in the world.

To the Chinese: you may be proud of your country, but think about this. The success of your nations was built upon the selfish sacrifice of millions of your countrymen. The gleaming metropolises shadow the poverty and suffering in the country side.

India is a country from humble roots, but its a miracle to see this nation to be at this level with the challenges it had to face. With many dialects and languages of India, communication seemed like a false hope. But our people have learned English and our workforce boast this skill on their resumes. Hindu and Muslim tensions seemed to rip the country apart, but we somehow pulled through.

And to just say where this has got us Indians now:

India has the second most number of billionaires after U.S.

Indians are the richest ethnic group in America, with an average income of $73,980.

Indian students score highest on SATs and STAR testing.

Indian students occupy a large percentage in the top colleges of the world.

IIT Universities in India produce the top computer experts in the world.

Watch out China, one day all those poor, neglected people will rebel. No government action can quiet this uproar of almost a billion people. It was your mistake of choosing such a selfish and cruel path.

Attention world! Here comes India!

don

September 17, 2007 05:32 AM

Reading all these comments from the Indian fellows makes me wonder if they have a inferiority complex. They must be jealous seeing China rise faster and more prosperous than their country. Everyone one has a right to be nationalistic but their arguments are absurd, blinded by the fundamental flaws of their society. A cast system, Kashmir, population explosion, racial discrimination of Muslims, and corruption are a few of the issues that plague India. Kashmir and population explosion are the two major ticking time bombs. Please, don't brag about India taking over China in population because that is a dubious distinction no country wants to bear. India cannot afford more people and neither can this planet. Sure, India is strong in IT but look out, China is catching up fast. Does China have it's share of problems? You bet. It has a lot of problems. But, with each day as the economy reaches more people, these problems will be less and less. China doesn't get the praises it deserves in terms of alleviating hundreds of millions out of poverty. Instead, western media always highlight the negatives. That is why the situation in China is much better than what the media portrays. That is why outsiders are always amazed and surprised when they visit China because what they read is not what they witness. I've been to China five times already and I'm amazed each time I go there. It is not the oppressed society in which people have no freedom. I witness the opposite. I cannot do it justice with this forum...you just have to witness for yourself.

yasin malik

September 17, 2007 07:03 PM

It is simply amazing how these Indians love to brag non-stop.

Borat

September 17, 2007 07:41 PM

Kazakhistan will develop into an economic powerhouse before windbag India.

rajesh

September 17, 2007 08:43 PM

For the last ten years some western thinkers have been predicating that India will be superpower in next twenty years. Those who blindly follow the western thinkers in India are also predicating the same thing with joyful hype. Western thinkers do not know the ground reality of India, Indian thinkers are really fools they only know one thing and that is to blindly accept what western thinkers say. First thing we must understand is that Indian government is soft and corrupt, people of India are also corrupt, Indian people are not scientific thinking or logical, they are superstitous, believe that everything is in the hands of fate and are not industrious. When any nation has some hope for becoming superpower, there are some signs in the nature of that nation to indicate so. I am INDIAN AND HAVE SPENT MY 50 YEARS IN STUDYING INDIAN PSYCHE AND I DID NOT FIND A SINGLE RAY OF NEW THINKING IN ANY PART OF INDIAN BRAIN

Celestial Emperor

September 17, 2007 10:09 PM

Even former head of the US federal reserve Alan Greenspan has admitted that the world's future economic prospects depend on China's growth but I am quite sure all these learned Indians will beg to differ

jian

September 18, 2007 11:14 PM

Rajesh,
I am a Chinese and favor China and India to restore their historic importances. I don't understand why you are so pessimistic of your mother land and her people. There may be much truth in your comment, but at least, isn't it also true that India's economy is rising quite impressively? Be it uneven or even unhealthy at the moment, isn't this at least a sign of Indian people's vitality (no matter how limitted it may be). Or India DID produce mathematicians like Ramanujan, world conscience inspiring sage Ganghdi (Today, I just saw a German woman looking at Ganghdi's biography), and great artists like Rabindranath Tagore. These are all very recent products of your mother land. Even today, Indian scientists are respected for their brilliance... I am puzzled by your comments... I wish India and China rise together on each side of the mighty Himalayas and give this western dominant greyish and terror filled world a brighter and healthier tommorow.

Chanakya

September 20, 2007 06:21 AM

Dear Jian,

I really appreciate your comments. Some people Indians who are too Pessimistic (e.g., Rajesh) or too over-confident ( who always speaking about Super power status), these guys don't understand the ground reality of the Indian system. India is a diverse country with different cultures, religions,and ideologies.India's development is on steady phase, it will continue as the same. It can't be run faster, as it has to confront with political parties, diverse people and ideologies (especially with Indian communists). As the communists always create troubles to the governments. Mostly for the communists supporters are only poor people, If the poor people become rich, communists will loose support and none of the others support anyway. So, the communists always resist any developmental process, its their hidden agenda.

With all these obstacles, how India can develop so fast ? But only thing is, it need time to overcome all obstacles.

No need blindly accept or reject Western propaganda, either positive or negative, we should think from our point of view and make 21st Century as Asian Century, as it was before 17th Century.

Practical

September 21, 2007 11:10 PM


Hello Two Asian Country Neighbors India China aid each other and dominate the world.

Please stop arguing throwing flak at each other and start talking how to better each others nation using good points of each others country.

And also try to bring down bad aspects in each others country e.g bad corruption in India make it public by posting all the facts about it & names of politicians,police, businessman involved in this so government will take action cause of publicity.Take advantage of such blogs to develop your country by good interaction make use to bring down all bad points
And on gaining power
China can be king of the world and India the minister aiding the king OR
India the King & China the minister aiding the king based on the Income so presently China is the king.

[Country of the Queen is left to the privacy of the King to select]

And all the other countries reporting to the country of the King/Minister
Cheers!


h

Peter Kwan

September 23, 2007 09:09 PM

Jian you idiot !!
Why don't you get out of China and just move to India if you have more loyalty towards India and Indians than towards your own nation. These Indians have nothing but malice and venom in their hearts towards China and Asians in general. Why are you so sympathetic towards those who wish ill towards your own?

jcage

September 23, 2007 11:59 PM

@Peter Kwan
How do you know that Jian is Chinese? It could be an upper caste Hindu pretending to be Chinese and they have pretend to be Japanese, American, European and even Sikh and Kashmir people!!

jian

September 24, 2007 01:03 AM

Kwan,
It isn't about loyalty. Like us since the Opium wars, India is an old civilization whose pride hurt by the British/westerners. Sometimes, people who are hurt don't know where to direct their anger. Indians' bad thoughts towards China are only a misdirected, superficial one that has no serious consequences. The true and consequential ones come from the west and the westernized Japan. And they only want to use India to counter China. But we should be able to handle this situation.

Sooner or later, when India is economically better off, she will respect this, and has sympaphy for us. In fact, I already know some Indians giving their sincere blessings to our motherland.

Today's world is too dark (look outside China, to the Islamic, African worlds and many other forgotten places), if there are two suns by the Himalayas, they should be re-ignited side by side. Two is better than one.

Chankya

September 24, 2007 08:47 AM

- Peter Kwan

You are the big Idiot. Better use " malice and venom in their hearts" to ur communists leaders, who killing your own innocent people in your country side, for just asking their rights. And more dark side of your leaders actions 1)Forced abortions like in Shandong province 2)Putting in prisons, harassing, and giving capital punishments those who asked justice ex: Chen Guangcheng, Zhao Yan both were jailed. How the migrants workers, working under oppressive sweatshop conditions, especially women without payment for several months..

If you have guts to question your Leaders, do then you will know, who has "malice and venom" in their blood and heart. Hey fool you first understand your country issues, I have traveled most part of China. I know the reality, How your Chinese people hate your leaders, just they can't express they anger because of the fear of oppression. So, close all your nine holes. Don't speak nonsense... Idiot.

Uncle SAM

September 25, 2007 08:56 PM

LOL @ Indians and Chinese. Ya'll both third world country. Ya'll both workign hard like slaves so Ameicans like myself enjoy life. Stop bickering among yourslef and get back working on shoe and toys or answering the call center. NOW

JayeedL

September 25, 2007 11:08 PM

Don't worry, we'll do exactly those things while you and the rest of your people from the one of the most obese nations laugh.

And here's a thought: its Asian Americans, mostly Indians, who are enjoying the good life in America while you other guys work in McDonalds.

jian

September 26, 2007 12:04 AM

Uncle SAM is truthful. The master is calling us hard working slaves (His country never changes. The Civil Rights Movement doesn't help, slavery has sticken in people's mind.)
.

My countrymen and my Indian friends, are you seeing the truth of the situations of our countries and the truth face of the westerners now? Are you still interested in himiliating each other? And can you imagine what the Africans, native Americans having been feeling for hundreds of years? What kind of future this world has if people like this Uncle SAM rule? What dignity China or India have? How much deeper Africa will sink? What good it serves if China tops India or India tops China? Wake up, my people!!

Thank you, Uncle SAM, for simply showing the truth. I like you.

TJ7683

September 26, 2007 07:37 AM

I was watching NBC nightly news yesterday and they were reporting on water shortages in the world. They did a pice on India and showing the gange river.

Nothing but poor and malnurished kids. Sad if you ask me. There are plenty of rich Indian in America, I wonder how many goes back hoem to help. Most are probably here bragging hoe geat India is.

ABC

October 1, 2007 07:09 PM

Indians are just big copycats who wanna do everything that Chinese do first

Yang

October 5, 2007 03:24 PM

I did think that Infosys which most Indian people are proud of is a very big company. But after I saw its revenue and net income on wiki, I reliazed it's actually even smaller than an local alcohol company in my hometown although both companies hire almost the same number of people. I am from a relatively poor and non-coastal region in China. So here's my suggestion to your Indian guys: Stop boosting your success in outsource service section. Its scale is too limited to support the prosperity of a whole country.

Ding

October 8, 2007 03:03 PM

You chinese guys boast to much. China has had same problems as India for many years, but on a larger scale.Your goverment have been successful in hiding your ugly statistics.

Bruce Lee

October 8, 2007 06:46 PM

India is nowhere close to matching China's performance and never will be. Your govt. and people just love to hyper-hype up everything about India's limited success and China's short comings.

shirish kokatay

October 9, 2007 01:34 PM

US-Chinese government to government relationship is currently tense if not outright hostile, based on one sided and non reciprocal trading, lack of respect for intellectual property , surreptitious expansion of army, cozy relationship with the likes of Iran, Sudan etc.

Think of the close relationship between the US-UK, the US-China one is the opposite.

The US has already planned the outlines of a grand alliance to counter the potential China threat, it includes Japan, Korea, Australia and India.

The basis for the need to counter the Chinese lies in the communist and dictatorial government's 'chip-on the-shoulder' attitude towards the west and their barely concealed hunger-for-power stance that is threatening regional security.

Chinese mistreatment of the Tibetians and forced abortions of their own people reflects badly on the Chinese authorities values, ethics and morals. The term evils comes to mind very easily. It is not too late for the Chinese government to liberalise and to join the global community of nations as a productive and non-threatening member. Amen.

Why

October 10, 2007 12:26 AM

How does that have anything to do with the economy?

jcage

October 10, 2007 01:32 AM

You can talk about the evil of Hindu caste system in place in India right now! You can talk about the female killing going right now in India! Yes, you can talk about how the Hindu government in India is killing the lower caste Hindu, non-Hindus, Muslim an d other minority through sheer neglect and reserving all the education and best job to the upper caste Hindu!
Don't criticize other before setting your own house in shape!

ABC

October 11, 2007 07:02 PM

Blah blah blah blah don't you Indians ever tire of the same old anti-China bull over and over again?

The real reason behind the west's anti-China designs have nothing to do with freedom and democracy rather it is just an excuse to try and stop China from gaining her rightful place in the world.

p>

Mathew Philip Mattathu

October 12, 2007 04:24 AM

Hey guys ;

Calm down ! I am not here to say India is better than China .The infrastructure in China is much better than in India .In India ,if you take the train to get to a place 400kms away ,it might take you 12 hours .That is stupid to say the least. That is why many people like us do not use the railways .Sadly ,not many can afford to go from point A to point B by air .However ,the airline industry is pretty safe and good in India .I also saw a documentary about how bad Chinese pilots are in English and that officials in JFK are surprised that there are no accidents .They want to make sure that only English speaking Chinese pilots are allowed to fly there .

The problems with the Chinese;

Lack of democracy which makes your government able to pull down houses and build roads. It helps you change your landscape so rapidly . In India ,you can never think of that .It is also absurd to say that blasts take place in India as if it is done by the govt.It takes place because our country is so diverse as Vineet pointed out .The Indian government does not plant bombs .Innocent people were killed in Tiananmen square by the Chinese government .This is one major difference.

Problems with India ;

Population that is not controlled very effectively
Corruption ( I come from Kerala which is the least corrupt state in India and I still feel that there is corruption there ;So, you can imagine how corrupt India is. I ( work in Germany though )

Infrastructure is so bad in India

Good things with the Chinese ;

They are good at manufacturing and they are fast .The quality is pretty good .Whoever says that Chinese goods are of poor quality are idiots .If you ask for cheap items ,you get low quality goods.

Read this ;
Click on the link

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/2/hi/business/6969035.stm > It is about an Indian guy who works in China and says it is wrong to say China only produces low quality products. Chinese companies produce low quality products at times because the west asks for it .

Good things with India ;

Young people fluent in English .I am not talking about the people who speak English but suck at it .I am talking about the ones who are really good at it .
Better relations with the west .You got to admit it ;The west rules for now and we have to put up with it for now .It does not mean that we have to do whatever they say . Look at Iran ! What are they gaining by alienating the west? .Their ruler is a fool . Bush is an even bigger fool .

I agree that China is ahead of India at the moment and might be for a long time to come .You have to accept the facts .

All I want to say is that I had prefer living in a free developing India rather than living in a autocratic developed China .Many Chinese would hate to admit it but living in a free country is better .

Touche!

PS:Please stop losing your cool over the opinions .Just respond to them in a professional manner .It is too immature to call other people names .

Vineet :Hats off to you !

If anyone wants to get in touch with me ,feel free to mail me at mathew0404@sify.com

God bless and keep your cool ! The pen is mightier than the sword at times .

TiredOfYindu

October 12, 2007 02:04 PM

From what I read and heard, Indians like to flaunt their "democracy" in front of China. I figured, maybe, they think the Chinese are very jealous of their "democracy".
I think it is time for Indians to realize, Chinese are neither jealous, nor envy your "democracy". On the contraray, Chinese see India and Phillipine as the exact exmaples of failure of "democracy". If Chinese decide, one day, to change their political system, you can bet it will not be India Chinese would look up to.

ABC

October 12, 2007 10:21 PM

"The basis for the need to counter the Chinese lies in the communist and dictatorial government's 'chip-on the-shoulder' attitude towards the west and their barely concealed hunger-for-power stance that is threatening regional security." says kokatay

Listen up you Indians. China had always been a massive military superpower in history while India has always been a puny pushover. If Chinese had been as aggressive, warlike and expansionist as the Mongols and Turks in history, India would have been history ages ago. India is no saintly state but a treacheous hegemon that would have gobbled up Tibet as well as Nepal and the rest of the Himalayan region had China not put India in her place.

Now Indians want to join the anti-China gang headed by America but this conspiracy will also fail. India as well as America will pay dearly for any misadventure against China.

Chanakya

October 13, 2007 03:01 PM

TiredOfYindu, ABC Fools,

I traveled to China several times most of Chinese cities and rural areas, I knew very well how you Chinese people hate ur Communist leaders (except Vice Premier Wu Yi), close all ur nine holes Idiots,
If u living nearer to Three Gorges project, displace immediatly from there, otherwise you guys will wash out, that is what ur leaders going to seriously discuss in the Peoples Congress meeting, serious consequences of the Environmental disasters....

Master Obi Wan Kenobi

October 13, 2007 09:02 PM

China may not be a fully developed nation yet but China is increasingly playing an important role both economically and politically on the world stage, China's global clout is increasing dramatically and hence is being viewed as a rising world power. This can be gauged from the fact that China is increasingly being called upon to use it's influence on countries like N.Korea, Sudan, Burma and some others. On the other hand India does not play any significant role on the world stage and does not have the ability to exert any kind of influence globally, nobody even considers India as a serious player in the international scene and yet Indians are madly hyping their country as a superpower. On what logic I wonder do Indians base their claim?

Having similar population size as China is not a consideration, neither is democracy or the lack of it. Knowing how to speak the whiteman's language is also not a factor nor is doing bulk outsourced coding for foreign software companies or managing outsourced call centres any reason for India to be branded a superpower.

Indians are invited to set aside their irrational nationalistic passion and provide a balanced argument to support their claim. Let us see if just for once Indians are able to indulge in logical debate and not swim in profound stupidity, the kind demonstrated by SmartOpinion and many other Indians.

Ordinary Chinese

October 15, 2007 12:19 AM

I am reading a book by a Chinese writer who took a trip to visit old civilizations comparable in age to China, starting with Greece and ended with India. The author was in attempt to understand the fates of those civilizations. I ended up having a lot of sympaphy with the difficulties that men had created for themselves and for each other. Regarding India, I think she has been burried under layors and layors of sorrows and miseries (So are most other old civilizations). She is still searching for her own dignity and destiny. But given this damaged psychy. India's people can behave less wisely than expected from people of an old high civilization. The west doesn't really respect India's sufferings, unconcerning with her alarming crisis (population, health care...), and only paints her with the meaningless "democracy" and uses her to counter China. And the wounded pride of India's people pushes many her people into this dangerous direction too. China has suffered much less damage and is nearer to her great past. It is easier and more natural for China to see and recover herself. In many ways, today's Chinese people are lucky under the protection of China's civilizational destiny.

I don't know what to say. Am Chinese but I have the deepest sympathy for India and her people, and the most sincerely pray for her finding her dignity again and bring her people out of poverty. But I am worried by what I know of India today. The hypocrisy of the west is doing furthur harm. And internally, there are fundamental questions that can be asked upon the state of India's civilization too... Maybe Buddhism should be and will be brought back to India (from China? as a thank-you for giving this tradition 1500 years ago?) as to remove the Caste system (Buddhism is of equality), and frees India's energy. I strongly believe that India's young and younger people (say, under 50) should work toward this long term goal. The "superpower" dream or envying China are meaningless, and much more dangerous. Many civiliations had died of blind self destructions.

China seems doing very well and enjoys a much more blessed life for the longest time in all history (a few bad times, Mogol and Manchu invations, Japanese masacre, communist masacre etc, but not as many times as the Jews, Indians, or perhaps even the Egyptians had suffered. The book said Babylon once wiped out the WHOLE Egypt. Very hair raising stuff when you read it). Chinese people should learn to be humble. Most Chinese are. Most commentators in this blog are probably not mainland Chinese.

Chanakya, I still respect Indians like you, but I believe you should focus your energy in the right place. China has little to do with you, and you have little to do with China. The China-India comparison is probably brought up by the disrespectful west or one-sided. It is delusional.

May the force guide India.

Rajesh John

October 16, 2007 08:52 PM

Has anyone ever wondered how and why Buddhism a religion of peace, harmony, compassion and equality faded out in India after enjoying several centuries of success? The reason was the brahmin chauvanists conspired and succeeded in strangling Buddhism in India because it challenged brahmin supremacy with it's rejection of the caste system.

Let alone become superpower, it is highly doubtful if India will be able to free herself from the shackles of poverty and misery as long as the feudal order of brahmanic hinduism dominates Indian society. Indian democracy is a farce. India is still run by brahmins and upper castes.

It is not a mere coincidence that the only Indian in India's long and troubled history who managed to unite and rule the whole Indian sub-continent as a single empire was a buddhist and not a hindu. Otherwise the only other times when the Indian sub-continent could be unified was thru the force of foreign invaders like the mughals from central asia and the european british. Hinduism is inherently divisive hence the caste system. A divided society lacks the strength and will to become a great power. The brutal muslim invasions of India and the following conversions only served to make an already horrible situation even more worse. Before where there were hundreds of mutually hostile castes and sub-castes at each others throats, now there was an additional religion competing for dominance with the hindus in India, eventually resulting in the partition of the sub-continent along religious lines.

Ironic as it is but buddhism may have been born in India but found it's natural home in China where it flourished and reached great heights, whereas it became extinct in the land of it's birth for reasons mentioned earlier. The ability of Chinese society to successfully assimilate an essentially foreign element like buddhism and take it to great heights is but only one proof of the strength and superiority of China's incredible civilization. Despite being older than vedic India, China's civilization due to it's inherent wisdom and humility has managed to steer clear of the atrocious traps that has made a hostage of India for the past thousands of years due to brahmin and upper caste arrogance.

Both China and India are ancient civilizations but among the two only China can be termed as a success. China has a natural cohesion and unbreakable will to strive forward and triumph, something that is totally lacking in India and that is the reason, one among many as to why China's predicted rise is serious business while talk of superpower India is nothing but empty air.

All those Indians who joyfully party over India's 'superpower' status because of minor achievements in outsourced software production and call centres are obviously living in a delusional state where they think the whiteman is handing over the superpower crown to India. Very pitiful indeed.

BTW I am originally from India but now living in the west. I left hinduism for christianity a long time ago. Christianity has it's flaws but atleast it does not have the suffocating caste system thrust upon a person from birth.

yasin malik

October 18, 2007 11:07 PM

Latest statistics show that China has more billionaires than India and is just behind the USA at number 2. Latest statistics also show that the number of Indian immigrants both legal and illegal settling permanently in other countries has surpassed the number of Chinese immigrants.

'Shining future superpower' India sure ain't attractive to the majority of Indians. Probably all the Mera Bharat mahaan hyping crowd posting in blogs like this one are Indians who live outside India and who will probably never want to live in India.

Smartopinion

October 21, 2007 12:27 AM

Rajesh John: A convert, well what can I say.. You are equating Casteism with Hinsuism. It's like equating seggregation with Christianity.. Tell us any original written Hindu Scripture that mentions Caste in its texts.. If you take the time to do that you may atleast find that Hinduism is the most scientifically based religion who does not have a messiah nor a precher hierarchy and which has invented Vedic mathematics the mother of all science.. Also it is the most secular religion which does not hate other religons nor does it have a concept of conversion or kafir

Matt

October 22, 2007 04:22 AM

I think that this blog site sucks and all of you are all simply fighting it out for no reason .Why don't you all take a hike and get back to work ?You are trying to prove which is better ? India or China ? I agree with Rajesh that India is still a poor country and so is China .Both countries have a long way to go .I am Indian but I think India is not going to be a superpower in the near future .All this talk about India having so many young people is bull.India has so many people but so what ?I think only around 30 percent of these Indians are ones who have a good IQ and will do something for India .The rest are either living in poverty or do not have the brains .Accept the truth ,fellow Indians .Most of us just leave our country whenever we get the chance.Our country attained Independence 60 years back but it is still in shambles ? Why ? All our leaders never cared about their country .They lacked pride .Some so called great leaders tell people like us to do something about it rather than complain .Yes,just try doing something about it .You won't even be allowed to .In many states of India like Kerala,( where I come from ),there are many idiotic youngsters who burn buses ,go on strikes for their leaders.How stupid can they get ? I feel bad about my country but am helpless. Our country is full of hypocrites and conservative people .We say that sex is against our morality but we have the second largest population in the world .How hypocritical . To answer smart opinion; There are many hindus who are fanatics like the RSS,the VHP and the Shiv Sena .When India gets rid of such organisations ,it will be better .China is at least doing better than us but has a long way to go too .So,stop trying to fight with each other .Don't boast about India .It is still nowhere.

A sad Indian

Maybe ,this post won't even be posted because one of my posts was not even posted.

Tsk Tsk

Visiter

October 25, 2007 04:41 AM

Come on guys, keep it going. love it

Alan Smith

October 29, 2007 01:40 PM

"Everything in China is stage managed. They decide from what kind of image they have to potray to what culture the people should espouse."

... Interesting generalization!... I sincerely hope someday, somehow India could "stage manage" on city that could imitate Shanghai, one train that could run on time...

Smartopinion

October 30, 2007 03:55 PM

Look at the Wall Street news today... Richest Person in the world is Mukesh Ambani an Indian.. To those who think that Indians are just empty bragging, I rest my case.. China opened its economy 15 yrs ago. India opened it late and now has a richest billionare in the whole world.. Now who undesrtands Capitalism, Chinese or Indians???

John Wayne

October 30, 2007 06:42 PM

Richest in the world, an Indian???? What happened to Bill Gates? And India also has the worst sweatshops in the world.

This SmartOpinion is the biggest braggert in the world

jian

November 5, 2007 02:34 AM

He might mean the richest in term of cash or so. Bill Gates is the richest, but much of his wealth isn't cash...

Smartopinion

November 21, 2007 10:30 PM

John Wayne
India Sweat shops are better than Katrina (New Orleans) shop lifters.. At least the Army in India reaches on time Duh... Well I know white people will never know that 33% of America is as poorer as a poor person in East (But hey man when was the last time anybody saw any poor person on American TV). And yes Private Health Care is a VERY NICE SOLUTION FOR THE poor people...

John Wayne

November 24, 2007 04:22 PM

Amazing !!

When anything bad about India is exposed, the Indians have a thousand excuses to make for it. Otherwise they are fixated on "Chinese sweatshops".

I can't see what possible comparision can be made between Indian sweatshops and shoplifting in post Katrina New Orleans. A desperate and futile attempt at exoneration I suppose.

The recently exposed sweatshops in India have proven that slave like conditions and child labour exploitation are worse in India but ofcourse Indians like SmartyPants will always be pointing fingers at China.

The excuse Indians will be making to condone their own imperfections is all too predictable: "Atleast India has a free press that reports these incidents wheras in China they are suppressed".

YEAH YEAH SURE SURE!!

SmartOpinion, you and your fellow countrymen are the embodiment of double standard hippocracy.

Celestial Emperor

November 24, 2007 05:12 PM

It is extremely unfortunate that there is so much bad historical baggage between the countries of the Far East i.e. China, Japan, North and South Korea which keeps them divided and prevents them from joining forces to create perhaps the most dynamic bloc on this planet.

Ethnically and culturally similar all these countries of the Far East have developed and advanced marvelously both economically and technologically with a high standard of living as in the case of Japan and S.Korea and a rising standard of living as in the case of China. Just imagine what a colossal global clout the Far East could weild if only all this historical animosity can be put behind.

I hope Jian can put aside his molly coddling of these Indians and contemplate what I have suggested. We East Asians are racially and culturally similar so it is natural that we forge an alliance for mutual benefit. Ofcourse the main stumbling block being the bad history in the form of the legacy of imperial Japan's atrocities against China and Korea which is very unfortunate. And then there is the imperialistic designs of the western powers to exploit this animosity to keep East Asian region divided.

These South Asians are of no value to us. They are not our bosom buddies like Jian likes to think.

jcage

November 25, 2007 09:47 PM

Hi CE

I would not called that South Asian has not value since it would be unfair to demised an entire country just because of a group of upper caste hindus.
Also, South Asian include many Asian countries such as Vietnam, CAmbodia, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Miyanmar and it would not be fair to those countries to be demise just because of individual such as Smarty and their ilks!

Celestial Emperor

November 26, 2007 08:15 PM

Jcage

Vietnam, Cambodia, Myanmar, Phillipines etc. are South-East Asian countries, not South Asian.

I have nothing against South Asian countries like Sri Lanka, Nepal, Bhutan etc. which have also been subjected to India's hegemonistic designs in the past.

India/Indians make up the majority of South Asia. Maybe I should just have said India/Indians instead of South Asians.

jcage

November 26, 2007 11:58 PM

CS

Sorry for the misunderstanding!
Not all Hindus are like Smarty and I believe that Smarty belong to the neo-fascist nationalist Hindu that is becoming more and more prevalent.
The tend to throw disinformation and lies to against competition such as China or lies and more lies to boost India perceive super-power status.

CBC

November 29, 2007 11:12 PM

American propaganda depicts China with toy-scares to make the public believe that China is evil trying to poison the children. While it is the USA's fault for their companies such as Mattel creating the designs on the toys and implementing quality control. This shows the lack of responsibility on the American side.
I am glad China stood up to the USA and did not allow the Kitty Hawk to port in Hong Kong. This shows that China will not be bullied by the USA and that it was a lesson to be taught to the arrogant Americans. They are not welcome across the world.

JC

November 30, 2007 04:45 AM


As for India, how can they be considered a superpower. They cannot be considered a "regional" power. That's a fact. These Indians on this board claim that India is so great. India is only 1/3 the size of China and has about the same population. They are truly overcrowded and everything is unorganized. Atleast China is building a reported 3-5 Manhattan sized cities every year. They are making ground breaking deals with nations all over the world. Like just recently they patched a deal with France with contracts worth over $30 Billion. China plays an international role in the world. India is not even in the UN Council. You Indians are all talk and living a pipe dream. China is manufacturing everything, this includes high quality products as well as low quality. It's just sad how North Americans are misinformed by CNN (The USA's Propaganda Machine) and that they only focus on the cheap products that China makes. You get what you pay for. IPODs are made in China...so I'm guessing they are considered toxic crap as well? Please the USA wants to be the only superpower and is doing everything to contain it from having a legitimate contender to balance the equation in the world.

The Dragon's eternal legacy

December 9, 2007 04:08 PM

America is a spent superpower both economically and militarily. America is no longer a leader of cutting edge technological innovation. For decades Americans have been living beyond their means, spending far more than they actually earn. The result? America is now saddled with a mountain of debt which is rapidly approaching a size
equivalent to the US GDP. America is fast approaching financial insolvency.

On the military front, the American military is no longer able to fight and win conventional wars overseas as is being witnessed in Iraq. The hitherto most powerful military in the world is in shambles as admitted by even top ranking US military officials.

For all those Indians who wish for China's collapse should beware of what they wish for. First of all China is never going to collapse as all this China is collapsing and India is future superpower BS is all American initiated propaganda which the glory starved Indians have lapped up ravenously.

As America's global power wanes and China's global clout increases, an increasingly nervous America is lashing out like a cornered beast.

An interesting fact nowadays is that China is the largest financier of America's gigantic debt. Hypothetically if China were to collapse then the USA will collapse as well for sure under the crushing weight of all the debts that America's own complacency and decadent lifestyle has accumulated in the decades following the end of WW2 and if America were to collapse then so will India's dreams of surpassing China and becoming superpower as everybody knows that it is America which is the largest sponsor of all this superpower India talk.

I don't mean to offend Indians but after going through so much anti-China tirades, the majority based on irrational sensationalism by so many Indian commentors in countless blogs and other media outlets, I am just tempted to respond.

Achimus

December 10, 2007 05:57 PM

I am an Indian.

I agree with the Dragon. India the superpower debate is sponsored by the Americans and it is not working.

India's prosperity is entwined with a success of the Chinese economy. This will become more apparent as the volume of trade and cooperation in R&D increases.

The Indian I know understand that much needs to be done. Unfortunately I don't see many of them in this blog.

The Chinese I know are supportive of our causes.

I hope there are more people like Jian out there. I will be very worried if they aren't.

Jian

December 10, 2007 10:25 PM

If China or India have any destinies, they can only be self-realizations. No superpower is make by others or through others. China will need to assimilate west's superiority in the materialistic domain and transcend it. India needs to see the west's hypocrisy and to continue her tradition once so revived by Gandhi. Economic reform alone can't save a civilization. Japan has sold her soul to the west, and to the worst part of the west, WW2 says it all. Japan should be abandoned.

Achimus

December 12, 2007 06:57 PM

Japan is an aberration of Asian Ethos. It needs to atone for its past. It will sometime before Japan can return to the Asian fold.

Indian are aware that the west wishes us to pursue a aggressive posture with China.

China needs to be proactive and preempt the west.

Yasin Malik

January 1, 2008 08:25 PM

Yes ladies and gentlemen when Indians like SmartOpinion and his/her likes say that India is the mother of all innovations and Indians are the most innovative people in the world, YOU ALL BETTER BELIEVE THAT!!

The link below provides interesting material towards that end. Read on

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/couples-outsource-pregnancies-to-india/20071230143609990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001

templetiger

January 10, 2008 02:20 AM

India and innovation?

A recent example of innovation is the Tata Nano, the cheapest most environmentally conscious car ever built. Talk about changing the world with an idea. Someone said China was the factory of the world? I think thats set to change as well from now on..

CSI

January 10, 2008 11:07 AM

So making the world's cheapest car is an innovation ? lol, this is so funny. I wonder how many people really think this worse-than-yugo car can really change the world. Environmentally conscious ? fyi, that car does not satisfy any European, American or Japanese emission standards, its engine is even worse than the 1986 Yugo of 650cc. That car is running on a 625cc engine, can that even overtake a horse ? Wow India just comes up with a very environmentally "friendly" car with absolutely no safety features whatsoever and I am not talking about airbags. A revolution indeed, a car with a donkey engine and no safety features. Amazed !!

Tech-savvy

January 11, 2008 02:43 AM

Who ever heard of Yugo?? It sounds like a the name of a toy or something.. that shows how successful this "better-than-nano" car was. And, for ANYTHING, success is the yardstick by which a product's worth is measured. Sure, how successful nano will be, is not known and that's you cannot comment about it for worse or good. But coming to the point of invention, it is definitely an invention when everybody in the industry deemed it impossible to do (even the local market) and fuel efficiency of 50mpg..at that cost says something. Today's most hybrid vehicles can't get that kind of fuel efficiency and cost an order of magnitude higher. Now, coming to safety features, yes it doesn't have many, but look at what market segment the car targets..its mainly for people upgrading from a motorcycle. and which has better safety between a motorcycle and a car? against road accidents, and environmental factors?

A revolutionary car was made by ford in 1908, model T. Look at how that car compares with nano. Sure, nano comes a 100 years later.. but nano is better off in terms of features, functionality, and affordability. See the comparison of these two cars here:

http://www.statesman.com/business/content/shared-gen/ap/Finance_General/India_Ultracheap_Car_Glance.html

Smartopinion

January 11, 2008 11:58 PM

To Jcage:
I heard that Tatas are buying the Luxury brands Jaguar and Land Rover from Ford... Well I guess you must not have cleaned your ears recently, (excuse me your head) .. Go ahead enjoy your trillion dollars... Guess what a Utopina will always be asleep even when the end of the world is at his/her door step.. Elephant is rising and there is no stopping.. Period... As for the 2500 dollar car, its a brilliant solution for the Indian market... But I guess a JCAGE would always sell a BMW to the village people in China right?

January 14, 2008 08:21 PM

Just wait for America, the real patron behind the rising India hype, to implode. Then let's see what chance India has of becoming superpower.

The $2500 car is not dissimilar from the Arjun tank, the LCA and everything else that is made in India, i.e. they are all worthless junk.


Celestial Emperor

January 14, 2008 08:49 PM

Don't worry, the day when the village folk in China being able to afford BMW's is not that far away. As a matter of fact I already know a few who own BMW's but even $2,500 is like a king's ransom for the desperately poor of India who form the majority. So how big a hit is India's new contraption (excuse me I meant car) in India itself? I ask because from the way you Indians keep boasting, it seems like you think it has taken the world by storm but it comes as no surprise as we are all used to excessive hyperbole from boastful Indians.

Today China is America's (India's master) largest creditor. Is India in a position to loan large sums of money to a major world power like Uncle Sam?

jcage

January 15, 2008 01:49 AM

Smarty, are you the same guy who stated the following:
1-India does not need to industrialized since Indians don't like manual labor
2-India does not need to innovate but just buy foreign software and IP or just pay patent fee
3-The same fellow who stated that Silicon Valley was created by Hindus and then give a list of Bangalore statistics to prove your point!

Now, more of your smarty opinion:
Ford spent $2.5 billion just to purchase Jaguar from BMW and spent over $10 billion in a period of 10 years and still fail to make Jaguar into success. Now pray tell, how Tata could do when Ford could not do it. Ford the creator of the 1st mass produced car the T-Model when India was still a British colony.

Tata lack the technology to do it and it would have to spend a lot more $$$ to purchase tech to improve jaguar. I am not even comment on the amount of $$$ that Ford spent on the Land Rover..

Also, BMW owned Jaguar and Land Rover for a time before selling to Ford after losing a lot of money.

Finally, the Nano is just Go-Kart or Golf car on steroid. The Nano engine tech belong Bosch engineering and not to Tata. It is just an expensive toy car masquerading as a "real car". China has just introduced the ARJ-21 a regional jet and China is already organizing its aerospace industry to compete with Airbus and Boeing, but India intruded the "Nano". It is not easy to compete with colossus of the industry but nothing is easy when one aim high.

Smartopinion

January 15, 2008 10:08 PM

Celestial Emperor thinks that all Chinese villgers will afford BMWs. Well what can I say, if these BMWs are made in China and funded by the Chinese national government then sure they would be affordable to Chinese villagers.

By artificially pegging the Yuan to dollars a begger can appear rich in international market.

Well what can I say to people who are still learning ABCDs of S T O C K M A R K E T..

Go ahead peg your Yuan. Try to be rich by saving money instead of creating value. In the mean while let the poor begger Tatas by Jaguar and Land Rover...

January 16, 2008 09:32 AM

Chinese companies doen't exist. Indian companies are creating value around the world. Learn to live free before starting to defend your poor pseudo-communist country!

jcage

January 16, 2008 03:17 PM

Smarty, the yuan is no longer pegged to the dollar and is now around 7.3 yuan per one dollar. In the past, the exchange was 8.3 yuan per dollar and please read the news and spend less time in blogs.
If China let the yuan grow more, that mean that China GDP in dollar become higher due to higher exchange rate so the lower yuan actually make China GDP lower than in reality. Well, that is lesson for today.

Get back to your desk and start answering phone call! OK..

a deluded indian.

January 17, 2008 05:03 PM

Chinese companies don't exist. Indian companies are creating value around the world. Learn to live free before starting to defend your poor pseudo-communist country!

LOL funniest I've ever heard. Indians creating brand values hahaha.

Here are some Chinese companies for you to think about

Lenovo
Haier
Huawei
ZTE
Aigo


INDIA IS A JOKE

January 17, 2008 07:55 PM

"Indian companies are creating value around the world." Where around the world?? Maybe around your dream world. Name even one Indian company that is competing alongside multinational giants and don't start off with the likes of Infosys, Wipro etc. They are just white collar coolies.

jcage

January 18, 2008 12:29 AM

The only value that Wipro, Infosys and their likes is only cost saving. It is simply cheap labor that's their only triumphs cards. There is report from BusinessWeeks stated that many Indian companies outsource their IT job to IBM, Accenture and other Western companies since the India company lack the technology to get the job done!!!
Wipro and companies can not compete against IBM and Accentures in India!!!
Wipro, Infosys and Tata are just bottom feeder while IBM and Accenture take care of the most value added business!

Smartopinion

January 19, 2008 11:36 PM

Lenovo
Haier
Huawei
ZTE
Aigo

All funded by Chinese Government... What can one say, These companies will one day be be global, so all workers in these companies will have democratic rights in other parts of the world except the part in which people live in China.. Way to go JCAGE.. I guess time has come for you to come out of your CAGE...

nanny

January 21, 2008 10:40 AM

Let's not fall into the trap of western media manipulation. If the growth exist on both country, let it grow strong.

There are many Indian is extremely casting an envious eyes on China, which is understandable in term of almost all statistic comparison in all area. This strong sense of dislike and jealousy toward the China is getting even stronger each day with all the strong from Indian local media and as well as western media.

But let's be practical and rational, you too, can become like China one of these day with the prerequisite of getting rid of self-hallucination mentality and boastful behaviour.

Again, let don't get corrupt by western media (such as BusinessWeek) to destroy the economic prosperity which India has currently enjoying. Bear in mind that no any single developed world like to see both country getting stronger as it will break all the long tradition status.

So before you pour out your irrational and pride-ridden opinion, think twice.

a deluded indian

January 21, 2008 01:29 PM

LOL LOL. Those companies are funded by Chinese government? Hahaha. Yet another stupid talk.

I think I'd rather save some breath.

DY

February 12, 2008 08:58 PM

It's sad to see some Indians so disillusioned they'd rather stay in their little waterholes and croak away while the rest of the world goes about their business.

For those who want to see China and India together working as allies, I guess you've seen the light.

Other lower-middle class Indians trapped in their several thousand rupee jobs and their rickety English skills would want to blow their horns to invoke hope for the rest of their impoverished brethren.

@ Pinot
November 14, 2006 09:56 AM
"To jcage. Why are you comparing Indians to a Hindu religion? First please check what an Indian means. It is a secular country. Indians are multiethnic and multicultural. A Sikh, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jew, Parsi etc all are Indians. Once again an Indian does not mean Hindu."

Oh really? Then why is India named "Hindustan"? Do you know what it means? LAND OF THE HINDUS. The rest of the cultures and races alongside you are subjects in your sub-standard, corrupted and non-functioning democracy (where votes are easily bought and its not unknown for Politicians to be allied with thugs) living under your Hindu umbrella.

Stop trying to blind the ignorant, naive westerners. You can't fool another Asian with rat-trap talk and rubbish facts. We know what you are.

dharmendra

February 13, 2008 11:56 AM

here i have read meny readers comments.
from this i conclude that in todays world india is lacking behind because in india there are following factors are hurdle
1) centralisation of money.
2) political unstability.
3) illeteracy
4) still depend upon the weather for the irraigation.
5) no respect towards country.
6) no proper planning.
7) no support from european countries.
8) millitancy.
9) community division.

now i am going to elaborate them.
first this is very much true that those people who has enough money they attract more money ans those are poor become more poor because in india one thing is speak only money no matter what the quality person have.

Ambanis and Tatas become rich day by day but have they do anything for the poor?i thing no.so in order to remove this factor our government has to ammend the constitution and make some laws to uphold the poor people in india.

second problem is no political stability is present in india.from the last five to seven year we have some stability in our governments.this political instability because of the many pasty rule .where as in china there is only two party who compete with each other so they have more stability as compare to us.

third is biggest problem india is facing is that illiteracy. because of this we are lacking behind in every sector whether it is agriculture and the it sector. the people are easy to divert in their favour by misguiding them because of their illeteracy, because they dont know what is right and what is wrong. in only fifty rupees they are easy to make people in their favour.
examples is that political party what does during the election they only privide food for a day and whisky and people ready to vote in their favour.

around fifty five year of independence has already over.but it is sad to see that still we are depend upon the weather for irrigation. if weather is good then our farmers get the good food cultivation but can u iamgine if india can solve the problem in the rajasthan but it is quite un belivable that our politics are not able to resolve the problem of the mp and bundelkhand.every body knows many farmer committ suicide but what matters for anyone because we are self thinker.

other is that no respect towards country in india. u can imagine to hear that there is some people saying that what the country did for them. except 4 to five percent person every other person think to go abroad for enlighting their future is is right to take other country forward and leave our country at the same position. and we can see this irrespect in the monuments we see that people write their love story on the walls and spoiled them. ans in recent says many things come in light of abusing abusing foreigners and humiliating them.how can we able to collect our foreign exchange more amd more if we are not able to respect the foreigners. in order to remove strict rules is necessary as that inthe china.

no proper planning from the government and this can be explained by taking the example of the common wealth game has we any proper planning for that. the answer is that no planning is their.has their any construction begin? not yet.
so their is also lack in the palnning which lacks us from china.

millitancy in india is very big but in china what we see that millitancy is very less and this is due to strict rules and regulation.In defence we spend almost half of the budget in it .think if we are able to use this money in the welfare of the people.then what can we do in the future for the poor people to stand them on their feet.

all over the world india is the only country where reservation is present yet according to my knowledge.and on the basis of that many political parties makes it a vote bank. now jaats are also demanding for reservation. because of the reservation our community divide int the two parts. so unity is less and production is less.

Abhishek Gupta, Doha

February 19, 2008 06:19 AM

China, unlike an empty and hollow shell like USSR, is doing the right thing needed for the country. They are delivering by exhibiting unmatched economic growth which cannot be disguised as USSR did in terms of boasting about their arms, weapons and defense power.

However, what both these countries lack is the realization of reducing the margin between the rich and the poor.

Being an Indian, I would love to see someone challenge me on my opinion of "Indians need to change their mentality".

We get attracted by Malls, Clubs, Cinemaplexes, Cars, etc.
We give secondary or no importance to Health Facilities, Education Centers, Infrastructure for road, electricity, transportation system, municipality system, master planned city, clean air, etc.
We Indians have a difference in Outlook compared to westerners. We are trying to skip steps. We are making pillars without filling in all the bricks.

We have not gone through any Industrial revolution and we are in IT revolution already. Is that good? Not sure but we are missing something for sure.

Currently, communism is good for the Chinese people because they will be clueless if they are granted with democracy all of a sudden. I believe in near future they will slowly transition into democracy.

In my opinion this battle will continue for another one or even two decades further until a country takes an edge over the other.

Watch out Indians, Chinese government is trying to promote English now so that they can capitalize on the IT market as well and I believe thats the only edge we have over the Chinese is that we speak English. We are the most successful migrants in the world according to recent article or findings.

Anyway, I am up for global distribution of wealth and power. I do believe the control of the world economy and power should be held in one or few hands to avoid chaos.

Jain

March 22, 2008 06:48 AM

It does not matter for Indians whether China is better than India in more ways than one. These are only comparisons. What matters most is where India stands in providing a decent living standard for its citizens. So long as it steadily grows at 8 percent every year, it will be able raise its poor to a decent living standards in a decade or two. What China does is for the Chinese citizens.

Let's stay FOCUSSED Indians.

China tops India for obvious reasons

April 13, 2008 08:42 PM

Isn't it obvious why China tops India in everything?

India is growing mainly because of support from the West (in exchange for support against China). While despite being deliberately hampered and obstructed by the West at every turn and at every available opportunity over some pretext after another (as is evident in the latest fuss over Tibet in a vain and futile attempt to disrupt the Beijing Olympics), China powers way ahead of India.

Having so-called democracy, so-called freedom, so-called rule of law, so-called entrepreneur driven growth and so-called better knowledge of English hasn't helped India overtake China in anyway and the way things are progressing in both countries, the status quo will remain unchanged for a very long time to come.

Human rights is non-existant in India for millions of the lowest caste called untouchables who are treated like animals or worse by the upper castes despite India's tall claims of being a civilized country with a long history. Atleast in China nobody is treated like that.

Until you Indians reform your own uncivilized society first, you have no right to sermon about democracy, freedom and human rights to others.

First practice what you preach else shut your traps!!

funny guy sanjay

April 26, 2008 06:15 AM

china tops india on overall growth .Was the topic of discussion and after reading thru the comments there is no doubt that the chinese sure do tops indian in term of growth,but some how they are also jealous of what ever india has achived inthe last 15 years

Chinese for almost half a 50 years have duplicated there a sucessful model throwing every rule in the patent law.They would simply reverse engineer .So much so for r&d you take ant chinese product you can see it has been reverse engineered ,but we all have to credit them for there hard work I thing we should also do the same thing .Well I do concurrer with abhiseik and jain about our change in mentality and focus .India is changing I would kove to see her on top!!

But What I dont understand is why all the chinese friend in the discussion are using such frustrated language!!As if given there way they would nuke all of india with their DHong Feng
ICBM!!!??
hey forgive me for being scarsatic,The chinese always invaded any one who did not agree with them.
Remember Tibet and then India.I know any chinese reading this is letting of hot steam...oops Fire ,But just coolit my friend ;-))

With Love and Regards

sanjay


Funny Gay Sanjay

April 28, 2008 10:46 PM

Chinese are jealous of India????? Don't be a clown Mr. Funny Guy :-)

Smartopinion

May 8, 2008 06:01 PM

Yooo Cage and Emporer.. I am back..

India is soooooooooooooooooooo poor lets check out the list of these poor billionares... Hi Hi Ha Ha Hi Hi Ha Ha

http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2008/03/06/india-dominates-billionaires-list/

johnny

May 30, 2008 05:33 PM

a bit off topic, but.............

whoever said iraq was a conventional war needs to be smacked in the head a few times.

we defeated iraq, then the jihadists began waging guerilla style war against us.

the US military can still defeat anyone in the world army to army.


also love how even in an india vs china economic topic there are (jealous) canadians (posters jerimiah or whatever his name was, i cant be bothered right now to spend 20 minutes scrolling around this thing and maybe CBC) who come out of nowhere and take potshots at the US.

preparationH

July 12, 2008 01:01 AM

China is way ahead of India- no question. Given that India endured way more difficulties than China. A 1,000 years of Islamic massacre and then a couple centuries of British exploitation.
However, this is no ground to say that I can be optimistic because of recent developments that has taken place in India. I am losing faith in India's ability to become a manufacturing hub. India's engineers are graduationg with memorized equations and no real skills. I doubt if many can even take a drill and drill and tap a hole on a piece of steel. India lacks skillful people in all areas that can lead it to manufacturing (construction, plumbing, fabrication, tooling and so on). If you don't believe me go and watch a plumber in India and the tools they use. My Indian educated theoritical enginner friends tell me 'being an engineer my job is to tell people what to do'. He off course is now working in software. Being an engineer of Indian origin and graduated from US, I can say my job is not to tell them but often show them how to do it (By the way I don't work in software).
There is no doubt that using our "Free Press' we have beaten the drums too many times. I just heard of Chongquing and looking it up in the web, it turns out to be a well designed impressive megapolis. In India if a city of this magnitude crept up from barely nothing, it would have been some type of showcase. My point is the Chinese 'just do it'. We talked about a gas pipeline from Iran to India for decades. It's still on drawing boards. The Chinese have laid rail track to Tibet, pipelines through Tajik. We declared to create an LCA in 1983 and 25 years later the airforce is still waiting for one.
If Indians will not begin to stup up and start doing something with their hands, then just remain in IT annd see how long that can keep the growth.

disappointed

July 25, 2008 12:14 PM


My English are not that good, so spare with me on this part. I really do not understand why so many Indians are so jealous towards the orients in this case Chinese. Giving all kinds of excuses doesnt make it right.

One can see the level of advancement of the mindset of both the Indians and Chinese here by looking at these comments. This already shows why China is far ahead of India. One obvious example is you dont need to wish a country to goes bad luck or die so that your country can see the light. The world does not work that way and that alone illustrate how backwards some of you Indian is. Despite that you are being educated to post with well refined English on a well known renowned business forum. Know that this is a well known renowned forum do you Indians even realized you idiocy of posting nonsense like this? You know that this is a globalize world your words will reflect your culture and your country.

You see what makes me feel sad and disappointed is I have seen way to many Indians like some of you here posting on other forum with the same kind of nonsense. If these comments are posted by some Indians kids at least we can say they are still young and ignorant but looking at the way you write one can tell a lot of these Indians are actually adults. Have you no shame? Go to rediff.com you will see so many of these indiots 24/7 wishing China goes down, US deline and India will be superpower. Go Asia times same thing, go to topix forum same thing. I have even seen some of the Indians boasting about Aryan Brahmin noblemen supremacy in a China forum. Can you believe it? Indians I would say are MORE THAN MEET THE EYES in this regards. Go to China daily forum or any Chinese forum either the Chinese wishes India to be successful and praise India or no mention India or Indians at all. THAT Alone already shows the level of mentality in between the 2. You Indians are really disappointment. Know this well with the internet more and more orients not just Chinese are beginning to know how much the Indian idiocy is.

Indian like to boast and brag about power and wealth which they dun have, Chinese try to hide power and wealth which they have. Indians talks like they can fly while in reality they actually learning to walk. I know a lot of Indians will be offended when I say this but let me ask you how many articles u ppl read that actually brag and boast about China progress which is written by a Chinese?

All these articles, news about China economic might, power etc etc is written by the western press by western ppl. If you really ask a Chinese or read an article written by a Chinese I can tell you 90% will undermine china wealth and power. Now lets look at Indian news, I can easily find a dozens upon dozens of Indians articles written by the so called Indians intellectual self-promoting India to be the next superpower, how India is going to beat China, how lousy China is compared to India, how India gonna overtakes America blablabla. Try and prove me wrong on this one.

You see the wisdom and insight here is Chinese actually have to put effort to undermine their influence so that ppl like u here can feels a little bit better. The Chinese need to put up a shield so that the spotlight of the world does not shine so intense on them. While looking at the Indian is like they are begging the world to move some of the spotlight to them.

I would say this about Indian, your false pride and ego is one of the factors that put a brake on your country progress. A society that have to look down on others so one can looks better doesnt do you ppl any justice and would not bring you any good except perhaps save some ego and keep it intact. Just like most of the bollywood movies the typical one fairy tales like from the surface and thats about it.

Indian ego is so huge and mighty it reached the sky. If there is a limit to your ego I would say it touched heaven.

bollywood

August 3, 2008 06:48 PM

Indians are all talk but no action.

aswin

September 1, 2008 12:19 PM

ok ok china is ahead of india so what......big deal...the most successful nation is not always the most happiest and USA is proof to it

Bite Me

September 3, 2008 07:46 PM

After going thru all these silly comments posted here I come to the conclusion that it's the Indians who are behaving like Cindarella's ugly and jealous step-sisters :-)

Who's got oil and gas

September 5, 2008 03:15 AM

IT is past and today it's all about energy(oil and gas).The world just cannot have more car cultures as there is not enough oil for that.

China has Forex reserves alone two times the size of Indian economy. China has 400 billion dollars a year trade surplus and India is 120 billion dollars a year in red.Even Forex reserves of India started to drop badly as the oil prices went high. There is a fleeting break in oil prices as U.S election gift. After November elections, oil prices will start climbing again.Watch the India's decline.indians are behaving like wolves to their small neighbours and countries like Pakistan and Bangladesh will need stronger China and America around to keep the Indian wolves away.

You go to other forums and find how Wolf like is Indian behaviour to the smaller neighbours. At least, they can only do false bragging of theirs before the more powerful Chinese and the Americans.To their smaller neighbourly critics in forums, these Indians are threatening the smaller countries critics with outright death warrants through even and meaner support of their Intelligence agencies.

God keep China dragon and American tiger around smaller neighbours of India to stop voracious Indian wolves from eating up the smaller and less defensible Paks and Bangladeshi's.

ALLAH BLESS CHINA AND AMERICA AND SAVE THE SMALLER NATIONS FROM THE WORLD'S MOST DANGEROUS COUNTRY INDIA.

Yasin Malik

September 7, 2008 01:32 PM

"ok ok china is ahead of india so what......big deal...the most successful nation is not always the most happiest and USA is proof to it"

Then why so many Indians are migrating to the US by hook or by crook. This is more proof of Indian stupidity.

You Indians have to learn to face facts. You claim that you are proud of your race and culture yet you demonstrate insecurity and lack of confidence by aping the West and seeking the white people's approval.

Your jealousy of those who are more successful is proof of your inferiority complex.

Quite contrary to your boastful claims, you Indians are deeply ashamed of yourselves. All your display of pride in yourselves and your country is based on falsehood.

Mao

September 7, 2008 09:51 PM

I know its load of argument crap out there. Between, chinese and indians, we have the yankees, the brits - all throwing their 2 to twenty cents about perceptions.

India has a long way to go and except for certain pockets there is a lot lot to do with alleviation of poverty and infrastructure

China maybe communist but they dont figure in the below the poverty line en-masse'.

When you write an argument - argue on the issues with facts as opposed to aimless blabbering - indian's especially

take care

Aing Poing Choing Seth

September 8, 2008 01:01 PM

The last time I checked no one has figured out a way to predict the future... truth is always stranger than fiction.

albertjames

September 12, 2008 04:53 AM

Just after two years India is once again becoming Bangladesh's top importing source by beating China, the fastest growing economy in the world, official data for the first nine months in the current fiscal year revealed. China was the number one country for Bangladesh's imports during the fiscal years 2005-06 and 2006-07. According to Bangladesh Bank (BB) data, the country has imported Tk 1,115.17 crore worth of more goods from India than China during the July-March period of the outgoing fiscal year.
--------------
albertjames
word-of-mouth

Hanuman's teacher

September 14, 2008 01:07 PM

Indeed the truth is strange especially when one wonders why India was not interested in becoming superpower when China was not a player in global politics. Now that China got the emerging superpower status, suddenly Indians are hyperventilating and hyping up their claims to being superpower, it doesn't matter to Indians if India is really worthy of such a status or not and the western leadership is playing on the Indians greed and delusion which is directly tied to jealousy over China's rise for their own expediency.

Kerean

September 14, 2008 02:57 PM

Interesting post as well as comments.

For the past 2 years or so, we've seen no decrease of hundreds of thousands of Indians(also Paks/Bangladeshis) working in the Gulf region - geographic proximity, somewhat similar culture, much higher pay than back home... We sometimes wonder, apart from the obvious money factor, what else drives them building others' homes, not their own?

Kerean

September 15, 2008 06:45 AM

The title says it all, what are we arguing about actually? I guess the real question for India is how to catch up and for the government how to serve its people. Democracy is not some seasonal must-have in the fashion biz, it comes from people and must feed back to people. What is democracy for if people are suffering from mass poverty, lack of basic infrastructure, deep social and religious division, and even unsafe and unstable environment? Why do you Indians elect such a government, and you want to play the blame others game?
Talking about the rich of the richest, someone has forgotten to count some heads from Africa? It is how poor the country is that counts.

Indian

October 24, 2008 10:57 AM

Businessweek is regularly printing anti-Indian articles, I am sure, you guys are getting money from China for the same, keep bashing, nothing will happen.

Dalai Lama

November 18, 2008 10:34 AM

China = Cheap
China = Cheap
China = Cheap
China = Cheap
China = Cheap
China = Cheap
China = Cheap
China = Cheap

mazhouma

December 10, 2008 06:15 PM

You're Right China does equal cheap in the world's view, what's interesting is the average Indian gets paid less than half of a average Chinese.

George Bush

January 31, 2009 11:33 AM

The reason why the the western world, in particular the neo-conservative factions are hyping up and siding with India while trying to put China down is because of a historical fear the white (caucasian) race has of the yellow (oriental) race.
Throughout history, from the Huns who humiliated the mighty Romans, to the Mongols under Ghengis Khan and his grandsons to the Japanese at Pearl Harbour to the Vietnamese in the Vietnam war, the East Asian race has kicked the white race’s ass while the South Asian’s have traditionally licked the white race’s ass. Therefore the western fear of China’s rise as a superpower that could challenge the western world’s global dominance.
The west courts India not because India has any true superpower potential but because Indians are sycophants and willing lackeys to the white race, is conviniently located right next door to China and more that willing to take orders from the whites.

Tianzhuren

April 9, 2009 12:18 AM

Do not countenance the Chinese with a response, people who have no say in governance and don't want it cannot be part of a debate.

virgoptrex

July 7, 2009 01:05 PM

Hey guys leave both economies to their own path. Both countries are good in their own aspect and also don't forget the land size difference which matters a lot for industrial development!!! (or why would countries annex other parts of the world as seen in the history and even now?)I belong to one of these developing countries and I really don't care what world thinks! I know what my aim is. Rather than whining on demerits of my country I can definitely make a difference no matter how small it is!!! Destiny shall shape the future!

Skeptic

August 19, 2009 07:20 PM

China tops India and vice versa. The real challenge for India is to feed its people. In a few decades India will be the most populous country on earth, and it takes a lot of money to feed 1.5 billion people. It's difficult to be rich and retire with plenty if you have to spend $100,000 raising each child.

NatureOfTruth

September 15, 2009 10:19 AM

Only a country who is envy of another success will badmouth them. And so far, many Indians like to badmouth China. China culture has huge influence on countries around her. Lets talk current senario...as of currently. China is the 3rd most powerful army in the world, its capability include ASAT anti satellite missile capability striking 800Km above with kinetic hit to kill precision which at this moment NO COUNTRY in the world is able to perform, and that includes US at that height. They have various other system, but the precision is won by the China with ground launch missile base and at cheaper cost too. This technical feat is being translated into a better ASBM anti ship ballistic missile capability that would threaten US carriers or any ship at the sea....if they can hit a satellite the size of a fridge at high velocity up in space, I doubt they would miss such a HUGE US carrier ship on open water traveling at much slower speed. There's currently no defense on ASBM yet and CHINA has it. During the recent Olympic, China rank #1 in the Gold medal count and by large margin also, Nation that have economic strength as well as military strength would also show their physical strength such as in the Olympic. China has HUGE reserve/savings over 2 TRILLIONs and growing as per latest month data from years of hardwork and right economic strategy to promote this growth year by year. China has successful launch a man in space on its own being the 3rd country to do so. No country even British, France, Japan or India is capable of this feat on their own. China innovation & invention during their civilization is stolen and it is a hoax propagate by lies of west that China doesn't have innovation. Football was play in China years before British re-invented into modern soccer, gun powder, hot air balloon, paper, the world 1st cheque, compass, etc. Its probably due to the old China arrogance they cease to modernize and sat on their assess thinking they are the superior civilization on the world...the 1st british diplomat who visited China then is treated as an ignorant barbarian or buffooon and promptly told by the Emperor they don't need anything from the British they consider backwater nation but unknown to China then, the British as the rest of the west then have undergone and industrial revolution with ideas stolen from several civilization around the world such as the Arabs,Indian,China to create the current modernity. The only thiefs in the world is those Barbarians like Tony Blair! Though with China might, they have largely kept to themselve at ease unlike the mass colonisation of the other west power with their modernization killing countless natives with their guns. Remember the old cowboy movies? That's how people like Bush seems to think and shoot all natives to expands their resources for survival...and they still do it even to this day against Iraqis....the forms can be whatever, freedom, democracy etc...but the nature, substance remains....economic resource expansion for their survival, oils for example. Look at how they are afraid of any rising power....because at the very base of nature....survivability is threaten. Cut the bullshit democracy....all wars is wars for resource. China should defend themselve, India should too, lest vultures like Bush & Tony Blair ilks.....wipe you out from the face on the Earth for their "freedom" and their "democracy".

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BusinessWeek’s team of Asia reporters brings you the latest insights on business, politics, technology and culture from some of the world’s biggest and fastest-growing economies. Eye on Asia’s bloggers include Asia regional editor Bruce Einhorn, Tokyo reporter Ian Rowley, Korea bureau chief Moon Ihlwan, Asia News Editor and China Bureau Chief. Dexter Roberts, and Hong Kong-based Asia correspondent Frederik Balfour.

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