Spain's High-Speed Trains Outmuscle Airlines

High speed train between L.A. and S.F. is needed. Let's get going, Mr. Governator and Mr. President.

I rode the Ave in May of this year. I was there 30 mins before departure. It was awesome. Lots of legroom and beautiful view. This has to be done in the US if we want to be a First World nation. Obama, don't give into the lobbyists. Air travel needs to be what it was, a luxurious form of limited travel--intercontinental. Airlines can charge for the high prices, and we don't have to deal with the current headache of air travel.

America will never accomplish this. We've been sold not only on the concept of less, but NO taxes. It will take taxes to plan, capture rights of way, build, and maintain, such a system. Anyone in railroad transportation can tell you, freight makes money, passenger rail transportation must be subsidized, just like urban bus transportation. A clue for law enforcement, teachers, fire prevention, etc. In addition, we just don't have the will to accomplish on the ground what we have accomplished in outer space. May as well cross this one off for the US.

It's great to see someone who obviously had little experience with modern train travel being convinced by the quality of the Spanish system.

However, the route between Madrid and Barcelona is not based on French TGV technology. The fast trains there are German Siemens-trainsets.

Anyway, there is a simple answer to your question why other services are not as modern or convenient as the Spanish one: They are simply older. The TGV was introduced in the 70s and 80s, the German ICE in the 90s, and the Ave just recently. Because the companies who make the trainsets (Alstom, Siemens, Talgo...) compete with each other and develop their trainsets, the newest versions are of course the most comfortable.

There is no mention of the cost of building the system and how heavily the government subsidized the service. Is this another free lunch?

Also if it is so great then why does Spain have one of the highest unemployment rates in Europe? Maybe the high taxes to support this boondogle (and other) drive away businesses?

@Tilman, I'm the Europe editor on BusinessWeek.com and I'm responsible for introducing the Alstom element into Mark's blog. Apologies if it's wrong--I was under the impression that Ave used TGV technology. We'll look into this and correct it tomorrow as needed. Thanks for your comment.

Although "high speed" rail is found in France, Germany, Italy, and other parts of Europe, Korea, Taiwan, and China, I usually analogize high speed rail to Japan's Shinkansen. That's the original.

It may just take us longer to get dedicated high speed rail, as we're not as socialistic as those other countries. There are many here who really don't care for what is best for most, only what is best for me. Couple that with, for example, the cost of building long haul train routes, as in California, and we've got to wonder if it's cost-justifiable. But, if we had built these things years ago, like those other countries, we would be enjoying it now. The "me's" have won.

Madrid-Barcelona AVE is Siemens, Madrid-Seville is Alstom.
As for HSR being socialist, that's typical American misinformation.
The Paris-Lyon TGV was built with Wall Street capital and the 10 years bonds were paid off in 8 years. The line currently has a 25% profit margin, which French socialists find shocking.

The SNCF is state-owned but not state-run. State functionaries have 7 seats in its 18-member board. It is run like a private company. It is currently bidding to run high-speed trains in America.

In fact, the only really socialist rail company I know is Amtrak, which relies on subsidies for most of its financing.

Japan's Shinkansen trains aren't great just for the speed, but for their frequency. Along the main city axis of Osaka-Kyoto-Nagoya-Tokyo you have a train leaving every ten minutes or so throughout the day. Which means you don't need to buy a ticket beforehand and don't need to "make your train." Just show up whenever you're ready and get onto the next train.

@Turner, air transport is also heavily subsidized in every country, including the US. You're paying for the air traffic control, safety regulatory systems, and most of the airport-related infrastructure through your taxes.

I suspect that if the likes of Mr. Turner really got their wish so no public money went to any common infrastructure, they would not actually like it very much.

What are we waiting for? Why is something that should have been done 25 years ago a "dream"?

After 225 years, isn't it obvious that we are at our best when we build things and try to go faster?

If the Acela can make a profit, why can't California HSR?

The obvious difference between the potential of high speed rail in Europe and the U.S. is the much larger average distances between the major American cities. The train travel time advantage over flying would only work on select city pairings, i.e. Boston/NYC/Philly/DC, which could make such a project a political hot potato in Washington, particularly if it meant no high speed service for the smaller cities along the rail line e.g. Providence, Baltimore etc.

It's a little hard to throw an airplane into park if you just gotta stop. Just as hard to hook up an extension cord to keep it running. And what would we do with the terrorists not being able to drive a train into a building? Any way you look at it, we got suckered by the alure of high tech airplanes, and now we are paying the price.

Even old rickety rail is more comfortable than air travel, and with far fewer delays (thunderstorms have little effect on a train). HSR is going to come to the US. As a daily rider of METRA in Chicago, there was a large increase in ridership last summer when gas was $4.00 per gallon. There is no doubt that it will be back there before long. What the US needs is a first true HSR line, whether that is LA to SF or Chicago to Cleveland, St. Louis, or even just Milwaukee. I am very hopeful that the $8 bil that is in the stimulus will be directed to 2 or 3 projects and not to multiple slight upgrades which would not have much value in promoting HSR.

America is quite creative in many ways, but when it comes to public transport, especially fast trains, America is very much behind Europe and Japan, maybe even China....???

Andy Reinhardt:

Tilman is right--this route uses Siemens trains. Other AVE routes use Alstom and also Talgo units. There is no one "AVE" manufacturer (unlike in France).

123xyz:

Shinkansen was the first recognisably modern high speed train, but back then it was nowhere near as fast as all these modern designs used across Europe and elsewhere. True high speed was first reached by the French.

I'm going to guess that the reporter charged his fare to his employer.

Acela service in the US Northeast costs double the regular train fare and takes about 20 minutes off of a 3 hour journey. It's mostly used by business travelers.

Regular people use the standard Amtrak service ($92 for NYC/Baltimore) or take the bus, which costs about $15, offers leather seats, and has wifi (www.boltbus.com).

I shudder to think what high speed rail between SF/LA will cost. SF/Sacramento Amtrak already costs about $20 and has terrible on time performance. SF/LA is about 4x the distance. It's also about 2x the distance of Baltimore/NYC. Does that mean that it will be double the Acela fare for that city pair which is already $200? Airfare on Southwest is

@Tilman and @Andy Reinhardt:

As far as I know, you are both right. AVE uses both technologies at the moment. Which one is being applied between Madrid and Barcelona tends to differ based on which train set is to be used at that given time.

However, the most important aren't the trains. The most important are the tracks themselves, which are dedicated high-speed trains.

@Tilman:

Almost of all of the Siemens trainsets in Germany have been update in the last few years to make them just as comfortable as the new ones. The difference isn't that big anymore.

@Tilman, @Dave, @Andres, and most of all @Mark Scott:

Mea culpa! The trainsets on the Madrid-Barcelona line are indeed from Siemens, not Alstom. (Alstom equipment is used on the Madrid-Seville line, which is what I was thinking of.) I've updated the blog post to reflect this.

Apologies to all--especially Mark, into whose copy I introduced an error.

Oh yeah! That is wonderful! We are living in Alice's Wonderland, but with a 19% jobless rate, and a national government focused only on winning the next (2 years ahead) polls. We have less happiness to celebrate. It is not gold every shinning gadget & country.

Mark Scott, thanks for the important subject on your post. Most flag carrier airlines today operate in deficit, still funded by Exim bank subsidy for purchase of newer aircraft would mean the state, tax payer suffers for every passengers. At the Le Bourget, Farnborough airshows newer aircraft are grabbed when they're launched. Billions are invested by the GCC airlines as Emirates, Eitehad, Qatar, Oman. Developing countries with with state operated rotten railways networks running into huge losses, corruption from the pocket of tax payers.

I was not able to participate at the Barcelona International High Speed Rail launching event a mega show. I could not convince state authorities to participate at the show and look at the road map for development of rail network of Barcelona, Spain, Delhi, Tehran, Beijing, and beyond. Why state airlines don't invest in high speed railways to complement low cost services if they have the infrastructure, they can invest in surface transportation, logistics.

With urbanisation, high rentals in big cities, only high speed rail can solve employment, poverty in many developing countries. They should think hard to stay on the ground and don't fly when you can travel on the ground. Countries will succeed and meet
the development plans with developed railways infrastructure, poverty, and employment. eMail: haroon@supertec.com

I recently rode a lot of trains. I am French and my beloved TGV got hammered by the Shinkansen... I went to Mount Fuji and got back to Tokyo using the bullet train. We stayed on the platform for 10 mins and we saw 3 trains passing full speed... At that time I understood that the TGV might be just as fast but far less frequent.

Then we went to China. We rode the fastest train on Earth. The train between the main airport of Shanghai and the city center. 30 km covered in 7 mins 20s. The max speed of 431km/h is reached in about 2 mins.

The Chineses were thinking of having the same between Shanghai and Beijing but apparently it costs too much.

After that we took the actual line from Shanghai to Beijing. That took a night. From 2100 to 0700. State of the art, classy train. About 1000km.

Finally the last one. From Beijing to Helsinki in Finland (home). First from Beijing to Ulan-bataar in Mongolia (the transmongolian), then to Irkutsk in Russia. We changed for the Transsiberian until St-Petersburg. And finally the Sibelius to Helsinki. About 10,000km. Probably some of the slowest trains on this planet. But a lot of fun!

Great article. If readers want to see high speed rail built in the US, tell the US Senate to spend four billion in next year's budget. The House has already voted to do so. Please visit www.FourBillion.com for details and a link where you can email your two Senators.

Excellent comments -- just to add some personal experiences: the TGV (Lyon-Paris) gets a bit old now, the German ICE (Munich Nurnberg) is really state of the art, like the Spanish ones. Worst is the UK link from London to Paris. They did not even have Champagne when I travelled!

Now about America: The best experience I had in China was with the Maglev train "Transrapid" from the airport to the city. This silent speed of 340miles/h or 550km/h is just amazing. I recommend this experience!

America, think big like you used to when you were not run by bankers, accountants, and lawyers in the past.

Get the next generation train without wheels. Why follow when you can lead the world?

The distances are greater in the US so you need a quicker train. The classic high speed trains are limited by the pantograph to around 200-250 miles/h

With the maglev you can double that to near jet speed. It would make flying from west to east coast redundant.

As the US would have to establish a new railway network anyway for high speed trains you could build the maglev train from scratch...

I do hope Obama goes along with it. I do hope more countries go this route. It will certainly help to cut down on the fuel used by the airline industry and by extension, help to lower the global demand for fuel, thus keeping the prices at a moderate level.

Rory - Jamaica

I'm always amazed at how the average American fails to recognize how much other forms of passenger transport are subsidized. I vividly recall attempting to explain to a fellow grad student that the interstate highways she drove on were a subsidy for cars (she never did seem to grasp the concept).

I spent the spring traveling in Europe and returned convinced that we need subsidized high speed passenger rail in the US.

Great idea in theory, but I just don't see it becoming the nation-wide norm in the States. We are just far too spread out. On a regional level, it could definitely work well and could potentially evolve to a more complex system...but I suspect we'd all be long gone before something like that happens.

What limits train speed is not the pantograph or wheel/rail friction. It is air resistance. It grows with the square of the speed. When you multiply the speed by 3, you multiply air resistance by 9. That's one of the reasons why maglev has been practically abandoned except for prestige reasons.

Alstom's AGV reached 358 mph. This is faster than an airliner at low altitude, but consumes so much electricity that it will never be a commercial speed. Not at the current cost of electricity, anyway.

The SNCF has calculated that the profit curve increases steeply between 125 and 186 mph, more gently between 186 and 225 mph, after which it starts to reverse. All companies now consider 360km/h (225mph) as the normal commercial speed for the next 20 years.
That extends to 800km (500 miles), the distance for which the train beats the plane (downtown to downtown). Of course, if other factors are taken into account, such as stress, queues, claustrophobia, this distance can be lengthened.

As for airlines replacing their short-haul flights with trains, they already do it, in a way. All American airlines codeshare with the TGV, which gives them access to all parts of France without the expense of buying airport slots. When you buy a United Airlines ticket from New York to Bordeaux, the second part of your "flight" will be TGV from Paris-CDG airport to downtown Bordeaux. The main TGV stations have IATA three-letter codes and are counted as airports by airlines, even for calculating frequent flyer miles.

I really hope we are able to get the high speed train project to fruition in the U.S. A project like this cannot happen unless the Federal government makes it a priority. Unfortunately, we are nation driven by lobbyists. The auto industry and the airline industry would not be too happy with the project.

The reality is also that our elected representatives, for all practical purpose, do not represent public's interest, but rather work for the lobbyists. The simple economics of getting elected drives where the loyalty lies for elected representatives.

Finally, even if the project reaches fruition, the fares would be outrageously high. We are country that operates on very high overheads. European countries tend to subsidize the fares so that they are affordable to the general public. Affordable fares create a high level of traffic, which in turn drops the overhead cost per passenger mile and generates greater asset utilization.

In the U.S. the economics works exactly the other way round. It is cheaper for a family of four to drive from San Diego to San Francisco in an automobile than to take an Amtrak train. Not only that, it takes 11 hours to cover the distance by train, as opposed to eight hours by car. Obviously, there is no penalty to auto drivers for contributing to the traffic jams and horrendous pollution.

Spain is a great example of what a country can accomplish in a short time once they decide that it is the right thing to do. On the contrary, the California high speed train project is embroiled in convincing each municipality along the route about the project's viability. Literally, any citizen can bring an injunction and halt the project's progress by raising concerns about noise, environmental impact, and other issues.

If people wonder how the national highways were built in the U.S., the primary reason was that project was positioned as a military project required for national security. We have not undertaken anything of that scale since the '50s, to the best of my knowledge. As much as I would like to see high speed trains running across the country, I have very little hope for the project. I hope I am proven wrong.

Please forgive the REALLY long post here. It's a passionate, while decidedly pragmatic one, about the subject of High Speed Rail when it comes to efficiency and global economic competitiveness of a nation.

Though I am the eternal optimist, it seems the United States has devolved to a point that it can no longer see the forest for the trees. In other words, it seems that insanity disguised as the 'Voice of Reason' has and is winning out over pragmatism and ACTION.

While we were once the country that embarked upon some of the most ambitious public works building of infrastructure in the first century of the Industrial Revolution, spanning from Lincoln's Transcontinental Railway (built in 7 yrs from legislation to last track in the midst of the CIVIL WAR!), to the Interstate Highway Program of the 50's and 60's, we've basically done NOTHING for the last 40+ yrs to upgrade decaying roads, bridges, dams, levees, electrical grids, sewage systems, etc.. since then. And now it's all outmoded and literally crumbling beneath and around us. Let alone the fact our trains go slower than they did 80 yrs with much less route coverage today than back then.

In the meantime, what has the rest of the industrialized world done?

At about precisely the time the US stopped doing ANY public works projects of ANY significance/scale ('cuz that would just be evil SOCIALISM, right?), beginning in 1964 Japan opened the first Shinkansen Bullet Train line.

Since then, France, Italy, Germany, Spain, Taiwan, S. Korea, and now, China, have followed suit, with many others coming online in recent years.

In the case of China, a country slightly larger than the U.S., you can throw out the argument about countries of this size being too large to realize viable High Speed Rail systems.

But while Obama has to kiss the ring and plead for $8 billion in HSR funding for HSR corridors of 500 mi (830 km) or less, China has already committed $800 billion (yes that's 100 times the fragile U.S. commitment) and is ALREADY constructing what will be the largest HSR network in the world by far when it is all completed during the next decade (by 2020).

Combine that with China's gleaming new subways, ports, and dedicated right-of-way freight rail being totally separated from the new passenger High Speed Rail, you can see how this all plays into global economic competitiveness, efficiency, and considerations of private investment by private companies in factories and distribution centers in places like China, rather than the U.S., which is rapidly becoming a 3rd world infrastructure economic backwater.

So, basically China, Northeast Asia, and Europe are eating our lunch while we bicker and get lost in the Gridlock, NIMBYism, and do-nothing selfishness of, as one previous posted noted, 'the many here who really don't care for what is best for most, only what is best for me.' 310 million nations of 'me.' Total paralysis.

This is a country without a Strategic Plan. Would a private enterprise and/or its Board of Directors ever approve any investment funding without a Strategic Plan? Why run a country without one?

The country that went to the Moon 40 yrs ago seems to have lost the ability and will to do anything big again.

We need to find ways to creatively fund major infrastructure that is First World, and adopt cutting edge 'leapfrog' technologies to make up for a half century or more of neglect and wrong-headed, dead end development.

But right now it kinda seems too late.

I hope I'm wrong.

I thought America was capable of greater achievement than this public works devolution...We used to be so pragmatic and can-do, once the envy of the world in this department. Look how far we've fallen!

Contrary to our recent history, we DO have much to learn and adopt from the successes of other countries, while maintaining our identity and cherry-picking certain good ideas for engineering, efficiency, and ACTION.

It's time to WAKE UP and GET UP.

The real No. 1 superpower in high-speed trains is actually India. The train from Dehli to Pune is state-of-the-art in the world and probably going to be so for the foreseeable future this century; it beats the Shinkanshen handily, far out-smarts the Chinese, the TGV, the Spansih, and the Germans. The future in high-speed rail is India, and in fact in everything. Jai Hind!

My wife and I also took the AVE train between Barcelona and Madrid last March, and it was a blast--very confortable, spacious and quiet, and due to heavy traffic in the city we got [to the station] only 5 minutes before the departure! (Try that in an airport!) I had the opportunity to ride three Shinkansen trains back in 1994 (1 Nozomi, 2 Hikari) and it was amazing the speed, quietness and punctuality. I know now the Japanese have even better trains.

Though we wish to have similar systems here in the US, I recognize it would be an unreachable dream...too many interests at risk and the lack of culture for good public transportation. Hey, we are all sold on the freedom a car gives you! It's true and I love to drive away, but sometimes a good alternative would be welcome-–the ones existing are too expensive and restrictive (air travel) or lousy and slow (buses, ie. Greyhound).

In the meantime, at least I can experience fast trains abroad.

BTW, the economies of scale work the same anywhere--almost always it's cheaper to drive a car (including rent and fuel) when there are more than two persons than to buy train tickets. (Even better if most involved know how to drive stick-shift/manual.)

The best places to get a real safe bullet train experience are France and Japan. They have the biggest high speed networks, and in France they run 700 TGVs each day. The technology is the best economically and technologically, and doesn't kill anyone like the ICE and other fat bullet trains, which are very dangerous when riding off the tracks.

Two kind of AVE trains run on the Madrid-Barcelona route: German-designed Siemens trains and Spanish-designed Talgo trains (whose motorhead comes from Bombardier).

So, for the sake of truth, you should also mention that the Madrid-Barcelona AVE route also uses Spanish Talgo high-speed trains. That's also true for all other AVE routes.