The Russia-Georgia War Revisited

The Georgian president should be trialed not only for attcking civilains from break away region but also for closing the door of negotiation for ever. In addition he should be sued by displaced people og georgian origin for putting their lives at risk just to follow orders of Dick Chenny.

I was closely watching both Russian and US/European meadia coverage of the events in August. Even though I do not have much illusions about the "independence" and "freedom" of media, I was surprized at the level of anti-Russian bias. They did not even let Russian to deliver their story. After 24+ appearances on CNN and other media outlets of Saakashvilly, CNN was scared to show one interview with Putin: they completely sensored it.

Was happy to see this posting, Jason. The question is now, do you think that this discovery would really change anything, or would the Western media still feed us what is easiest to digest - big Russian bear ravishing an innocent democratic dove? The facts were fairly obvious from the start - there were plenty of Ossetians screaming for help, and nobody seemed to listen, or perhaps even care. Collateral damage. I am sure that anyone higher up knew the facts. But even Obama was weak and swerved onto the McCain line.
My guess is no, things would be the same and the media will still sell whatever is sold easiest. And the people will buy it wholeheartedly. Sadly, only a few people care about the issue enough to follow up and the mass perception will remain entirely biased. I do give BBC a lot of credit for the documentary though.

Sure it's Georgia's fault. And OJ Simpson's wife also attacked him first. And the Czechoslovakians attacked Hitler, didn't they, those rascals?

Of course Georgia deserved this invasion and the ethnic cleansing of Georgians from South Ossetia and Abkhazia. The kind and gentle KGB general Putin was just protecting Russian citizens as he did in Chechnya for example. Right?

Why don't these reports say anything about several days of shelling of Georgian positions and Georgian villages starting August 1st (not denied by anyone). About explosions of Georgian police cars, about at least 2 dead Georgian peacekeepers, and about undeniable build up of Russian forces in South Ossetia (even Russian media spilled this information) and in Abkhazia. About the threats from Ossetian leaders to attack Georgian cities and ethnically cleanse South Ossetia from Georgians? How did hundreds of Russian tanks and rocket launchers get in Java (in South Ossetia) prior to the conflict? Why were Russian planes shooting Georgian drones in Georgia? All of these were illegal Russian activities on the internationally recognized territory of Georgia.

Why are these reports denying Georgia's right to defend itself on their own territory? Were there other options in the face of this crawling Russian aggression? Were they just supposed to roll over and wiggle their tail? The West did nothing to stop the Russians and now some are cowardly trying to blame Georgia for it. Hypocrisy indeed.

It is funny how these half-lies trying to turn Georgia into a villain started to circulate right after Obama's victory. I wonder if it's b/c pro-Russian forces are trying to soften the field to push Obama away from Georgia or is it even worse and it's actually Obama's people preparing the public for their planned betrayal of Georgia so that the celebrity president can concentrate on abstract "change" instead of dealing with Russian aggression?

To those of you still wondering how the Georgians feel picture an 350 lb intruder in your house. Picture yourself trying to eject him out of your house. Picture him beating the crap out of you with a baseball bat and then proceeding to settle in one of your rooms, kicking your family out of it. Picture how your appeals to police result in no action on their part. Picture how the police tell you to negotiate with the intruder instead. And now on top of that imagine local newspapers starting to circulate a story that apparently it was you who attacked the intruder and maybe even broke his tooth. That police cannot confirm that the intruder's bat was showing when you attacked him. And that maybe you are not an innocent as you claim. Picture that.

First, uncle sam wanted us to test the ruskies. Then, they abandoned us to rot. Not enough? Now, they smeared our name as the genocide criminals. Thanks a lot uncle sam. You're quite an ally.

nice,, why would Georgia do that ,,
not nice Georgia.
Ur lucky the russians didnt eliminate you.

The investigations are more likely to yield truth if they are conducted right away. I'm more likely to believe a side, which has been open to any kind of international investigation into what happened during this conflict, since day one. Georgian authorities have not only welcomed the idea but also invited other countries and NGOs to conduct thorough investigations into this matter.
Now that several months have passed, dust has not only settled and most likely moved around, and the area has been completely cleansed from those people that do not share Russian point of view, Russians are letting selected few enter the area and showing them only what they want to show and letting them hear only what they want them to hear.
Mr. Saakashvili has claimed since day one of the conflict, in his televised interviews, that he mobilized the troops only after he received information about Russian troops crossing the border. The phrase "to restore constitutional order" was a blunder by a lower level general that was taken out of context.

"As the true facts slowly" emerge is self-serving twaddle. Gerhard Schröder knew and was reporting the true facts, in an interview in Der Spiegel, within a week after the genocidal Georgian assault on South Ossetiaa--as did many others, including just about every non-neocon news source in the Western hemisphere, including the Prensa Latina and the Dissident Voice. So, really, what's taken you so long? Blinding hatred of Russia? Abject unwillingness to contradict the fairy tales concocted by George Bush and his fascist sycophants in the UK? For shame.

I see it this way: some US business interests associated with Russia (like Jason Bush here, I guess) really want to free up some of their shady dealings with Russian Putin-run economy. That's why these so-called reports cynically try to point the blaming finger on Georgia. I expect some more shameless articles like this in the mainstream US media. Twisting and turning some facts while ignoring the others, putting accusatory titles without much substance to back them up, they will be trying to create the smoke screen of doubt in front of less-than-attentive American public to make them think twice about this whole business of standing up to Russian aggression.

Somebody really wants to convince Obama to throw Georgia into Russian jaws. It's possible even that some on his team may think that by sacrificing Georgia they can get "more important" issues resolved. Congressman Jerrold Nadler, for example, while campaigning for Obama recently said: "So let 'em invade Georgia. It's right next to them...Which is more important to us Georgia or Israel, frankly?" Google for it. He actually said it. But who was it that said "The belief that security can be obtained by throwing a small state to the wolves is a fatal delusion."? Oh yes, it was Sir Winston Churchill.

Thanks God, nod all Western media are sold to the warmongering neo-cons.

True...

Shame on you BusinessWeek! And NYTimes... shame you too! You sure found the easiest side to blame -- weak Georgia. The cynicism of this piece is going in overdrive when Jason Bush actually states the reason behind it -- apparently his "foreign investor" buddies are resenting the "anti-Russian bias". They are probably losing money invested in this corrupt KGB-run regime. No problem guys, let's just blame it all on Georgia!

It is especially regrettable to see these cynical reports in Western media, when even in Russia -- a country with the near-complete totalitarian media control -- some people are brave enough to tell the truth about Russian aggression.

Here is a report from a Russian expert Pavel Felgenhauer:
http://www.robertamsterdam.com/2008/08/pavel_felgenhauer_on_russias_p.htm
where he asserts that Putin has made a decision to invade Georgia at least in April, and that this invasion would have happened no matter what Georgians did.

Another brave Russian -- Andrei Illarionov argues that the invasion of Georgia "had been long prepared and successfully executed." (From here: http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/insight/articles/pp081608.shtml )

Here is an account by Russian journalist, Vadim Rechkalov, that he was only able to publish in his Livejournal ( http://voinodel.livejournal.com/59433.html#cutid1 ) which shows that Russians themselves were shelling Tskhinvali with grad rockets on August 8th "in order to take it from Georgians". Yes, Russians bombarding their own citizens in Tskhinvali!

But I am sure it's also an "anti-Russian bias" of these Russians, isn't it Jason Bush?

The problem with these two experts - Pavel Felgenhauer and Andrei Illarionov, is that on the 7 and 8th of August they weren't in Tshinvali. These "brave russians" were sitting in their Moscow offices writing articles about horrors of Putins's bloody regime.
In the third article "we were shelling Tskhinvali" is said by an operator of a MLRS, who simply can't know for sure what he was shelling - Tskhnvali itself or nearby hills with georgian troops entrenched there. He is only relayed firing data(azimuth, elevation) and pushes the button.

And its not "shame on BusinessWeek! And NYTimes", it shame on Human Rights Watch and OSCE.

Hey Georgians, give us a break. The world is now sick and tired of your pathetic propaganda lies. You have to learn to take responsibility for the nasty deeds you did and continue to do in S. Ossetia and Abkhazia.

the sad thing about that is there will be apologies from the western media for the lie spoken about South Osetia. It means that the lie could be spoken again and again...

On YouTube you can find a planty of evidences of Georgian war crimes.

Georgian troops are "restoring constitutional order"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ3zYDB8Pfo

Georgian troops in Tskhinvali before Russians strike back

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe_-ubW98m0

Yea, yea, "little weak Georgia". Which is big-huge liar at all! Answer a question if you can: If Russia has invaded into Georgia why exactly by our side was initiated the night session of security council of the United Nations in august 8-th? For what reason Russia did it? Russia has used artillery and maybe grad (MRLS) but not by residential area! They attack just georgian army positions after they've been pushed out from the city (by chechen division VOSTOK and by ossetian militia). Only after that russian army covered by fire georgian soldiers, that's why they threw out their weapons and tanks and ran out . (sorry for my english)

It is rather interesting to see the rigor of journalism thus belittled... The data that 'now starts to emerge' comes from the territories - Abkhazia and S. Ossetia - which are now fully controlled by the Russian forces. It is reasonable to assume, that those who control the region also provide selective access to the facts and data. Let's assume all of such data is accurate. But where is information, research and analysis regarding the ethnic Georgian villages over some of which Moscow's mayor now plans to build the huge pool to bury the evidence forever? The West should remember that many a church or a mosque were built in Bosnia over the mass graves. In absence of balanced reporting, the current wave of 'new evidence' looks too much like manipulation of half-truths for the political aim...

I suggest George Hewitt's excellent article 'Georgia: a danger to itself and Transcaucasian stability' http://www.eurasiacritic.com/aug/aug_grg.html

And Journeyman Pictures documentary would be useful to understand events http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE8Gg0PMgnk

I remembered the Georgian general Georgiy (Gia) Karkarashvili, leading the invading forces in the autumn of 1992, he stated on TV that he would sacrifice 100,000 Georgians to kill all 97,000 (total population of Abkh.) Abkhazians, if that is what it took to keep Georgia's borders inviolate.

A similar threat came from the head of Georgia's wartime administration, Giorgi Khaindrava, on the pages of Le Monde Diplomatique in April 1993. Goga (Giorgi) Khaindrava, told the correspondent from Le Monde Diplomatique that "there are only 80,000 Abkhazians, which means that we can easily and completely destroy the genetic stock of their nation by killing 15,000 of their youth. And we are perfectly capable of doing this."

So, this is not first for the Georgians...

Why is the American taxpayer still being forced to pay billions in unconditional aid to Saakashvili?

It is heartening to see responsible organizations such as Business Week, The New York Times, Human Rights Watch and others putting together the true story of what happened during the Georgian government's assault on the people of South Ossetia. In addition to all these reports, you can check out our own growing compilation of eyewitness accounts of Georgian abuses before, during, and after the five-day war. (truthforossetia.org/personal-stories)

But now the U.S. government must take the lead and stop rewarding Saakashvili for ordering an indiscriminate attack on civilians. The State Department, which now concedes that Georgia erred in its attack, has begun to show the way. But the American government and people need to find out what Georgia's U.S. trained and equipped military really did in August.

Sen. Hillary Clinton has introduced bill S.3567 to establish a Commission on the conflict between Russia and Georgia. This bill, which is currently referred to the Foreign Affairs Committee, seeks to examine the causes of the conflict and make recommendations about U.S. policy. The U.S. Senate must ensure that the American people get a full and fair hearing on what happened in August, before the U.S. pays another dime to this reckless, repressive autocrat.

By the way, this whole story of 'Georgia taking preventive measures in its attack' somehow emerged two days after the war broke out. They had to make up something quick and it was as quickly bought by the Russophobic media. Seems like not all hope is lost after all though. And my dear Georgian apologists, how do you explain that the death toll among civilians that Georgians killed during the onslaught, roughly 350 exceeds both Russian and Georgian military casualties combined?

Somebody here said that it was Russians pounding the town, killing them? Don't you think that if this was the case, Ossetians would not have welcomed the Russian forces as liberators? And here's one for Misha S. - way to be a tool. No self-respecting president of a sovereign country would have begged the US for help in such fashion, he was ready to relinquish the entire coutry to US control and turned it into a battleground. Way to be a patriot, Misha!

The issue here is not about the media but about our politians, and how they either did not understand what was going on or how they shamelessly lied to us.

Atlanticist hawks in the West (eg. Zbigniew Brzezinski, Albright, Holbrooke, Soros & Co) would prefer to stabilize the Russian front with Europe, in order to keep their precious recovering East European motherlands safe from wars that have seen them trampled upon in the past. This is why they are now quickly moving to discard the loose cannon Saakashvili.

Meanwhile, they would still prefer to eliminate the Russian threat by other means, choosing to instead bleed the Russian bear from the rear, by revitalizing jihadism in SouthAsia. This accomplishes the goal of killing the bear, while keeping the precious East European motherlands safely out of harm's way in the meantime. Better to create a remote battlefield in which to confront the enemy, rather than one near your home.

We Asians of course don't appreciate having our lives turned upside down, just because someone sees us as mere 'collateral damage'. I've always wondered how Cambodians feel about what Brzezinski did to them, when he colluded with the Chinese in supporting Pol Pot and Khmer Rouge to counter Soviet-backed Vietnam.

It is hard to gauge what really happened during this war. Neither one of them are telling the truth and the facts are few and far between. I do agree with one of the posts here in that the Russians control all information coming in and out of the disputed territories and will only allow what they want people to see. They moan and groan about the Georgian "attrocities" but do not mention what they or especially their surrogates did. It is a fair thing to say that both sides did bad things, not just one of them. Personally I see the Russians as bullies in this whole affair, like Georgia was really a threat to them, give me a break, they give people in South Ossetia a Russian passport then call them citizens. They practically dared Georgia to attack. I also believe that Saakashvili is totally insane, the third rate Georgian military had absolutely no chance against the second rate Russian military, what was going thru his mind only a psychiatrist could say. Also, if the fight was in South Ossetia why did the Russians and their lackeys attack thru Abkazia. If the Russians were concerned about the Ossetian situation why did they make it worse by openning another avenue in Abkazia. I believe the Russians provoked the Georgians into attacking South Ossetia and the Georgians where stupid enough to fall for it. Needless bloodshed over pride by both sides.

Omg, is the truth finally starting to come out in the western media? I just wish the new American president Obama would have the courage to stand up to the hawks and announce the withdrawal of support & military funding for the tyrant and murderer Saakashvilli...

Stan you need to familiarize yourself with the issue. It will help your judgement. Go and see when things started. Human rights watch may be the starting point. At least you can be sure of the absence of russian bias there. See what happened in 90s, who was in control, where, how the cease fire was brokered etc...

My dear Russophilic friend AG.

Human Rights Watch reported 44 dead in Tskhinvali when they visited during the war, most of whom were Ossetian paramilitaries. The figure of 350 civilians is now being paraded by Russian authorities, but nobody can verify it. And it is understandably hard to believe them after their hysteric screams about 2000 dead on the very first day turned out to be a blatant lie.

Yes, Russia pounded the town killing their own citizens -- Russian journalists report it as well. (Why does this surprise you? Putin killed tens of thousands of Chechen civilians without any moral problem.) And yes, some Ossetians may be upset about it now (most I suspect are in denial like you), but what are they gonna do? Blame the Russians and expose this whole "evil Georgians killing civilians" sham?

Ok , here it is very simple . I ask you to think about what I write before you react.
Georgia was testing Russia and they got thier results. There is no way that Gerogia started fighting after Russia invaded. They know damn well they would be crushed . They tested the bears resolve and they got their answer.
What if Russia were building military bases in Mexico? Do you think the USA would not react?
Get NATO the hell out of Russia's back yard or the entire world will pay.

It's funny to read such comments as Stan's. So now we can say that even western journalists or OSCE monitors who was on Georgian territory directly who reject or have doubt in georgian version. They all have not own opinion and write the articles from dictation of authorities "controlling the areas", literally? Even they are really not independent, then who are not? Have a suggestions?

The BBC reporter Tim Whewell went to Georgia and the breakway region of South Ossetia that was at the centre of the brief and nasty war this summer. (1-st part) http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=MOPXnxVoPuY (2-nd part) http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=QtDQcRftjZU

GD says "Putin killed tens of thousands of Chechen civilians without any moral problem."

Why not say Putin killed tens of MILLIONS, or even BILLIONS of the lilly-white wahhabi angels?

By the way, guess what happened to those 294 thousands of Russians who lived in pre-war Chechnya (30% of that-time's population)? The current figure of survivors is around 20k.
And.. the Chechens never invaded the Russian province of Dagestan... or did they?

Gentlemen, does the phrase "October Surprise" mean anything to you? I couldn't help but notice how quickly McCain pounced on the Russian response to the Georgian attack, benefiting from a temporary surge in the polls. I also couldn't help notice the stories that quickly emerged in the press, conveniently speculating that Georgia probably saw the Olympics as a ripe moment to attack. What an obvious Red Herring - why would the Olympics be able to obscure such a major clash? What pathetic fiction.

I also can't help but notice the sudden flurry of verdicts against Saakashvili, now that Bush is on the way out of the Whitehouse. Better to sweep away the old cobwebs with the changing of guard, huh?

Saakashvili was a perfect stooge for assisting an "October Surprise" type of event. His country was overwhelmingly dependent on the US for aid, and they even have a main boulevard named after George W Bush. What a total lackey.

Now the naive and ignorant Georgians bitterly curse their fate, feeling used and abandoned, after having been duped into backing a losing horse. I don't feel any sympathy for them. It's no small coincidence that these people gave rise to Joseph Stalin, the most infamous son of their soil. It's certainly worth remembering that Stalin was a Georgian, not a Russian. It's desperate Mouse-That-Roared groups like that which tend to become nurturing grounds for extremist movements like communism.

It is obvious, the war must have been started on Bush's order to "control" russian economy's growth outlook and lower its stock market.
This was necessary to avoid russia getting ahead while US orderly brings down its banks. The administration has been warning of 1000 bank failure for the last year.

The timing of the war was perfect!!

Why are georgians so cruel? remember Stalin?

To Dennis and all "brave" Russians.
You are right that was test.
Now the whole world knows how weak is Russian Army. (Russian Army lost around 1800 soldiers and Georgian around 180)
That was test on Russia's account. Georgia will survive and will be protected by NATO.
But when you will attack once again or will be forced to start war to restore your Empire, you will be destroyed by your Eastern "friends". You will have no oil money, nothing...You will be weak. But what to do, this is your choice. Instead of choosing the civilized way of development you prefer "hooligan", barbarian behavior. And believe me this will happen well before 2030. Time is on our side.

Now Russia rules, USA-EU has to cook whatever would please Putin. Besides, some EU leaders do not want Georgia in NATO, so they need a reason and right before the summit they need had to fabricate something against it. That is fine, but how long do you think Georgia will take your pull and push games? There is an anecdote: A man rescues a drowning man and then keeps reminding him about it all the time. One day the man, sick and tired of his life savers endless boasting and pressure, tells him I am going to go back to the place and jump into the water, but this time please, please! do not save me! So Georgia must be sick and tired of treated like a child. One Tunisian man working for the UN said what do they know about Georgia, one of the cradles of ancient civilizations, country with such a rich history and culture. Now the morons of the modern era can associate Georgia only with Stalin. One Georgian poet wrote: I saw a wounded eagle fighting the crows and ravens and shouting at them: you got me bad time otherwise I would see your feathers spread all over the valley.
Please remember one thing: there is God, oh yeah there is and who can now it better than a Georgian? Georgia will endure the attack of crows and ravens from every side, but it will also wise up and do not trust any more devils in friends musks.

Even Sanjays learned to read and write ): Nothing will surprise me anymore. OK Bush did not hide anything, but your favorites came to power through sneaky tricks. I do not call it a victory, I call it a pseudo-democracy. I feel sorry for you. One thing remember Georgia does not need your filthy money. Those Ossetian gunmen are still terrorizing Georgian population and I will not blame Misha if he liquidates them. That is his own territory, why these morons do not get it? Georgia will not get along with this. If you do not respect international order why should Georgia? US is a failed country now. EU is worse. So, I bet Eastern Europe will create a new Union, No Russia, NO NATO No West, leave those monsters out and create a functional Union that can rely on one another.

I'm ashamed to say, The war was premeditated crime commited by this criminal russian government. There are many facts proving this. Just because some Georgian claims can not be verified, you can not blame all this on them. There were thousand times more claims told by russia that turned out to be a lie, during this war. We need a regime change in Russia now... we owe Georgia appologies... fellow russians let's not be sheeps and believe everything our KGB controlled media tells us. they are trained in population control and they do it well, as we see...

Russia has mastered information war aspects pretty well, scrutinizing different information chanals and making impacts on the population that can feed on anything. Georgia should say: dig out the graves now! Show me the fresh ossetian bodies. Georgian forensics should be there. The Bodies could be consodered civilian if they are not to 18-65 year-old males, as they are the most dangerous gunmen and they all should be liquidated.

I am not surprised to read the comments from russians here. After all most of them are probably either brainwashed individuals by kgb propaganda, or kgb officers being given an order to "win informational war".

what i am surprised is by comments of someone named Sanjay. Sanjay, you mentioned that you are from Southeast Asia. I just wish you had neighbors like russians, and then i would like to listen what you have to say. russians believe then can do whatever they want with neighboring small countries, that's their history. They can do nothing against China, because they have enough brains to udnerstand that will be losing war, but who cares about chechnya, georgia, latvia, estonia. Poor russians, they are offended that NATO and US are expanding into those countries. How hard it is to believe that these countires are scared to have russians as neighbors and want some protection and guarantees.

Anyone who does not believe that, or does not want to believe, i wish you had closer contacts with criminals from kgb, or russian army generals. only then you will understand and value your freedom and democracy.

Jason Bush’s article states that Human Rights Watch estimates that there were 300-400 Ossetian civilian casualties during the war between Russia and Georgia over South Ossetia. He is not the first observer to mistakenly-- though unwittingly-- attribute to Human Rights Watch estimates of civilian casualties during the August war. But Human Rights Watch has never made any such estimates, because we do not have the capacity to do so.

In his article, Mr. Bush references the BBC, citing HRW that 300-400 is a “useful starting point for assessing civilian casualties, even if some of these may be Ossetian paramilitaries.”

This came about in a discussion about lists of deaths, one compiled by the Investigative Committee of the Russian Prosecutor General’s office, which at the time of the interview had a list of 159 deaths, and the other by a South Ossetian commission working with Russia’s Public Chamber, which now has a list of 361 deaths.

Our emphasis, in this interview and others, has been not on endorsing definitive or even approximate numbers but on describing what needs to be done to make an accurate assessment: distinguishing between civilian and fighters, going from home to home, ensuring comprehnsiveness, ensuring there has been no double counting, establishing time and circumstances of death, and the like.

The Public Chamber list does not, for example, distinguish between civilian and fighter casualties. It is not clear whether the prosecutor’s list does, and if so, how.

What is not disputed by anyone, including the parties to the conflict, is that civilians bore the brunt of the fighting. The sometimes clinical and hotly disputed discussion of civilian casualty numbers should not for one instant diminish the fact that even one is a tragedy.
Rachel Denber
Acting Director
Europe and Central Asia division, Human Rights Watch

There is no justice or little justice in the world...Instead of accusing who is right and who is wrong, we need to overcome this blame game and keep trying to live peacefully... there is no way to run away from conflicts in our lives, no perfect safe place on this Earth… It should be of each person priority to keep peace and not to engage in a war of humans' pride.
For thousand years there were wars on the Earth, did we learn anything good from that? Hardly... we have learnt how to make better weapons rather than resolve conflicts... Shame on us! Cooperation and not competition is what makes us stronger as humans... it is a foolish idea to live by a motto "strongest species survive" introduced by evolution theorists as there are far more examples in wildlife that cooperation keeps populations go on..

Are not humans smarter than animals?.. A war and its deeds breed anger and desire to revenge, yet these emotions just breed more destruction. The hardest things of all for a person to do is to try to overcome a grief, forgive and keep living…

Think today, will it matter 50 years from now who initiated the war, Russians or Georgians, the West or the East? The worst thing that would matter, that there would be people who could not make these 50 years, as they were victims of war and no matter who killed them they are dead...

Let us be wise enough to restore peace and not to initiate a war no matter what good intentions we may have... the road to another hell of war can be paved with these intentions...
In the end of the day we all will die, just let us celebrate the life today and protect it!

If Bismark thought the whole of the Balkans were not worth the bones of one Pomeranian grenadier one wonders what he would have felt about the Caucasus? If the west had any brains it would stay out of it altogether. What do we care what the boundaries of Georgia are?

Several things.

1) There is a noticeable trend on part of Western media to try to put blame (or part of it) on Georgia. This is indicative of the reluctance to deal with Russia and diplomatically confront it over its policies in Georgia and other former Sov. Union countries.
2)Russians are working hard to make these news articles "happpen". They see that international opinion matters and that already they succeeded in brainwashing their own citizens, on international scale they still have much "work" to do.
3)Clarification: someone above cited Georgian General Karkarashvili and Geo official Khanidrava. The citation is entirely taken our of context and is aimed at misleading the readers. The meaning of what these two people said (one in the beginning of 90s is that for the Abkhaz the war is horrible thing, because they are such a small ethnicity and if they loose several thousands of young man that equals to a national catastrophy. This has been a subject vastly discussed in Georgia, that the war hits harder the small communities.
4)Huge respect to those RUssians, like the ones already mentioned here, Felenghauer, Illariionov, as well as to Alex Kluchkov, who's made some comments here, who have independent thinking and courage to see and name things for what they are and are not succeptible to Kremlin brainwashing. These people are the people, who will make RUssia a better place some day.
5) Today is the ultimate test time for the West, as we know it. Georgia is a litmus test for many of modern Western values.

Several things.

1) There is a noticeable trend on the part of the Western media to try to put blame (or part of it) on Georgia. This is indicative of the reluctance to deal with Russia and diplomatically confront it over its policies in Georgia and other former Soviet Union countries.

2) Russians are working hard to make these news articles "happpen." They see that international opinion matters and that already they have succeeded in brainwashing their own citizens. On an international scale, they still have much "work" to do.

3) Clarification: Someone above cited Georgian General Karkarashvili and Geo official Khanidrava. The citation is entirely taken out of context and is aimed at misleading the readers. The meaning of what these two people said (one in the beginning of '90s) is that for the Abkhaz the war is horrible thing, because they are such a small ethnicity and if they loose several thousand young man that equals a national catastrophe. This has been a subject vastly discussed in Georgia, that the war hits small communities harder.

4) Huge respect to those Russians, like the ones already mentioned here, Felenghauer, Illariionov, as well as to Alex Kluchkov, who's made some comments here, who have independent thinking and courage to see and name things for what they are and are not susceptible to Kremlin brainwashing. These people are the ones who will make Russia a better place some day.

5) Today is the ultimate test time for the West, as we know it. Georgia is a litmus test for many of modern Western values.

Evidence 3 months after the war ended?
OSCE has 8 observer mandate to Tskinvali but Russians did not let them in the area all this time to see the fresh evidence on any war crime incidents.
Whose gonna believe such articles wherever they are published,
As of Chechens, it wasnt their choice to become fanatic guerrilas and attack russians or neighboring dagestan. in 1993 Kremlin started their bloody war with stupid arrogance and wiped out Chechen civilian population. How come Russia is right in both cases with Georgia and Chechnya.

Why does the "liberal" media ignore the facts put out by the U.S. State Department. The U.S. military was openly involved in this small war.
http://www.sandersresearch.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1369&Itemid=97

I think this article is totally biased. BusinessWeek should not have any illusion that it does any independent reporting. A BBC journalist was not able to visit South Ossetia until three month after the war. Russians did not grant any access to foreign media or international NGOs in the conflict zones when the war was going on. Georgian authorities were welcoming journalist, NGOs, and anybody who wanted to witness the fact themselves.

I think there is a reason why Russians did not let anybody in those territories. They needed to hide the true picture. If Georgians were as brutal as they say, why would they let journalist in so that the whole world would see Georgian brutality? Would not it have been in their interest? I guess that was not the case. I am amused how this article mentions eyewitness reports in S. Ossetia. The only people left there are Russian passport holders. Ethnic Georgians have been driven out and their houses have been burnt to the ground. Of course these so called eye witnesses will say whatever Russians will tell them to say.

I also find it interesting that these articles emerge right before the EU and Russia resumed talks. I guess Europe realized that they really need Russian oil, so they have to close their eyes on some issues and discredit Georgia. It is also interesting that Russia recently hired leading PR companies like Ketchum, etc. to influence media coverage of the conflict. And yes, don't forget about the new U.S. President. I think timing is the key here. Why are those reports emerging now? How much money is Russia spending to make sure it happens? I think BusinessWeek has fallen into Russian propaganda.

I will tell you why there is a tendency to blame everything on Georgia and why these reports are coming out now. The European Union is Russia's No. 1 customer and No. 1 investor, and heavily dependent on Russian energy. With the world financial crisis shaking markets in Europe and beyond, officials of the 27-nation EU say reaching out to Moscow is crucial to ensuring stability and to keeping Russia from shutting off its economy to outsiders.

Which if translated means: "Make sure you provide as with oil and we will ignore your agressive behavor and will make sure to convince the world that tiny Georgia started it all."

Do people really think the Georgian president is so dumb as to start a war with a country four times bigger than his own? Russia would have invaded Georgia, regardless.

Lev, you are a joke!

I think you got the casualties reversed. Georgians lost 1,800 troops. Those cowards ran when they heard the Russians crossed the Roki tunnel.

Search the web for war trophies the Russians collected from the coward Georgians.

The truth is coming out now since the West figured out they can't ignore Russia after all. Russia and China and OPEC countries are pushing for abandoning the US dollar for transactions.

Guess who won the Cold War suckers!

I guess for most Kremlin supporters it all comes down to magnitude of force and blackmail, and not the truth or defending human rights. Well, at some point the West's patience will be tested and you see who's the boss. The Russian journalist in the BBC movie says only five tanks survived from the long pack, the stupid comm. general was badly wounded by small Georgian brigade. And you tell me the Russian army is a countable force against any serious army? Ridiculous. Make up your mind.

Georgia is 50 times smaller from Russia. Bragging about winning such a small country merely is a sign of sickness and weakness.

Georgia's attack on S. Ossetia was worse than a crime, it was a mistake, as one famous imperialist once said in another context.

The question that we all should wonder about is what was Saakashvilli thinking when he did such a stupid thing. Look at what he accomplished. S. Ossetia ana Abkhasia are irreversibly separated from Georgia. Their hope of ever gaining entrance to either Nato or the EU are over. Once the Georgian people realize what has happened, Saakashvilli's best hopes for a future will be exile.

This really does raise the question: what information was he acting on that led him to make such a ghastly error?

Oleg, there is nothing sick or weak about kicking butt of a little pathetic country like Georgia that was spending 70% of its budget to build up its military, year after year for 5 years, so that it could terrorize much smaller people. Russian military did outstanding job. I guess Western media couldn't lie any longer without looking silly, hence a turnaround.

Too much partisanship being shown by media and by posters. Very quickly it was known (despite western mainstream media reports depicting Georgia as innocent victim) that initial military aggression was initiated by Georgia. This does not absolve Russia from its obligations to abide by international law, however. Russia's actions were clearly pre-meditated, as evidenced by their military preparations.

Both governments should recieve equal condemnation for this outbreak of violence. I see no moral difference; but I do see Georgian's actions as far studiper. What was Saakashvilli thinking???

Randy Sheunneman is the first casualty of truth finding. He was unceremoniously been fired the day after the election from the top post in John McCain's campaign. His role in Georgian war is rather obvious. As a "former" advisor to Georgian President Saakashvilli, he has been indirectly pointed out by Russia as someone who had an interest in stirring things up in Caucauses in order to help McCain win. In fact, we should not forget that this may have worked. The financial meltdown in US, tanking of the stock market, and the clouds of the world-wide recession --- were the major factors in McCain's loss. But back to Sheunneman. He worked very closely with Georgia's minister of defence (incidentally, an Israeli citizen) who was instrumental in contracting a military training company, MPRI, to assist with the planning and executing the assault on South Ossetia. What qualifications does MPRI possess for such a job? This was the company that assisted Croatian government in 1995 to plan, train, and execute the most massive ethnic cleansing operation in Europe since World War II, the expulsion of over 250,000 ethnic Serbs from the region of Krajina. The assault of Krajina matches assault on South Ossetia to almost every detail. The indiscriminate shelling on the only major city, Tskhinvalli, is an identical to the indiscriminate shelling of Knin (the capital of breakaway Krajina). Attacks on the fleeing refugees was also used during expulsion to insure that the refugees do not attempt to slow down their flight and stay within the country. Also, the attacks on the fleeing columns were used every time the columns got bogged down by broken down vehicles or accidents. Once shelled, the refugees would run around the obstacles, often leaving all of their possesions in cars, and flee on foot until they get out of the country. The mop up troups were used to burn entire villages and kill those that did not flee to insure that the refugees would not have anywhere to come back. Indeed, in Krajina, less then 5% of population came back due to the lack of shelter, difficulty in reclaiming property occupied illegaly, and many other forms of harassment.
It is very clear that the attempt to "restore constitutional order" was well planned, by experienced military experts in population expulsion. It is also clear that the president did not during his televised address to the nation mention that Geogia was under attack by Russia's forces. All of that came after it became clear after Georgia lost. Nobody paid for the crimes of Krajina. Until today, more then a decade after the assault on the civilians, the region remains a quiet witnesses of what happened. Hundreds of burned out villages dot the once lively coutryside, as the weeds and surrounding forrests slowly reclaim the land.

Controversy is to be expected in all such situations.Preexisting biases are played out and true facts get buried in mountains of uncollaborated allegations.Often the real facts are deliberatly discarded by many.Jason Bush's report is a service to those who prefer more objective facts and truely value truth.Wars are to eagerly sought when emotions cause us to overlook facts.W.W.1 was such a war.Each side had equal guilt then in simply being stupid.I hope our leaders can let reason prevail.

I'm glad to see that the truth is making it's way slowly into the news media. I would like to see articles about which side actually started the conflict acknowledge that the truth was always there to see and that many people in the United States never bought into the Russian aggression story pushed by the news media and the John McCain campaign.

I was shocked to find the response by Rachel Denber, Acting Director, Europe and Central Asia, Human Rights Watch. HRW is a discredited organization, and has long ago lost every credibility to report on human rights issues. It is a political organization that responds only to the need of its underwriters.
Perhaps Ms. Denber can be reminded of August 5th, 1995, when Human Right Watch was on the ground in Croatia, and lied about the largest ethnic cleansing in Europe since WWII. Croatia, with the help of military contractors, MPRI, conducted operation "Storm" to "restore consitutional order" over a breakaway region Krajina. Over 250,000 people were forced to flee, while thousands of villages were burned and many who remained killed. Hundreds of miles long refugee columns were attacked from the air to insure that they do not get bogged down by broken down vehicles. They were pushed in one direction: out of the country. HRW has later obfuscated their role in misrepresenting what they saw, but it was much too little and much too late. I am sure it did not escape HRW attention that the SAME company, MPRI, has been retained by the Georgian government to train their special forces in their attempt at crushing the resistance in South Ossetia. The shelling of Tskhinvalli is identical to shelling of then capital of breakaway Krajina, Knin. Targeting fleeing refugees was also repeated in South Ossetia.

HRW dishonor has been confirmed recently when it was asked to follow up on the allegations by Carla del Ponte, who as a former Prosecutor for the crimes on the territory of former Yugoslavia, uncovered the information on organ harvesting from kidnapped Serbs in Kosovo. The Prosecutor provided a great deal of detail, including one of the locations of such horrors, as well as the evidence collected from the preliminary search of the house surroundings. Carla del Ponte was, for political reasons, prevented to complete the investigation. HRW, as everyone predicted, did not find anything to warrant further investigation. Sure, sure, HRW. In an effort to squash the pressure, Kosovo Albanian government raided one of the locations where illigal transplants were taking place, and arrested a number of people. This is supposed to stop the efforts at cross-border smuggling of human beings into Albania for the purpose of ortgan harvesting. But it will not do. HRW can rest assured that there are many concerned citizens that are outraged by the protection criminals are getting in Kosovo. And Ms. Denber may reflect upon the fate of all those innocents that are smuggled from Eastern Europe and Central Asia, lured by the promise of jobs, just to find themselves enslaved in Kosovo, and from there smuggled into forced prostitution throughout Europe. Many of them, having been destroyed physically and mentally, end up on the organ harvesting tables. Once HRW decided that criminal gangs in Kosovo are not worth protecting, many innocent lives will be saved. And those lives are human, too.

The US and Israel have been selling/supplying and training Georgia in the use of up to date military weapons and tactics for years. Beginning sometime after July 18th, Georgia and over 1,000 US marines spent TWO WEEKS in military exercises, called "Immediate Response 2008". (See Pepe Escobar at Real News)

It looks like the surprise nighttime attack occurred just days, perhaps hours, after the military exercises ended. How on earth could we not have known of Georgia's build-up for the attack? It involved a large portion of its military forces.

Russia had scheduled its own parallel military exercises just outside Ossetia, and thus was very well prepared to reply.

Georgia got its "immediate response," which was to get its ass kicked. Russia finished up removing or destroying Georgia's fancy new weapons, and no doubt gathered much useful intelligence, from military bases in Georgia, on US/Israeli meddling in the Caucasus.

There goes a few hundred million more US taxpayer dollars down the drain, to serve lunatic neo-con dreams of world domination.

In a 11/06 referendum, Ossetians voted on the order of 90+ percent to join with North Ossetia, which sounds something like the "democracy" and "self determination" we in the US claim to value, in Kosovo.

Gary Rose
Los Gatos, CA

Dear GD,

Certainly there are two sides to every argument, but at least my Russophilic ravings are not so full of shameless denial. Nah, the figures I quoted are verifiable, originally Ossetians reported 1500 dead, which was off, but the official Russian dead figures are usually quite reliable. At least more reliable than Georgian quote of shooting down 17 planes, it was 4 (which is still a shame). Now from your point of view, and that of many Georgia apologists, somehow any civilian casualties on the Ossetian side are OK, as these people are killed by a 'Civilized Democratic European Nation'. Or perhaps an Impoverished Central Asian American Satellite is a better description?

The coverage of the war was strongly biased against Russia. I am glad that finally the truth is coming out and hopefully it will get around to the people through well balanced media coverage. Sadly the damage to Russia has been done and the image of Putin and Medvedev as the aggressor has been established. Its only through documentaries such as the one by BBC that Russia could imerge as a positive player in the world. Moreover the United States should be shameful for arming such a power hungry man is the Georgian president. This is exactly what happens when you give and Idiot guns to play with. Hopefully Russia punished him enough that he will never raise a gun on an innocent soul. I would like to see him get tried for war crimes and pay for the lives lost from his psychopathic orders. He not only disregarded the lives in the South Ossetia but also the lives of his own citizens knowing that the conflict would spill into the Georgian territory. Its sad that even with all the education he was able to get in the United States he didn't get any common sense and respect for human life.

One simple question....

Why in 1999 did Washington condemn Milosevic and praise Kosovo but do a 180 degree turn of logic in 2008 to praise Saakashvili and condemn South Ossetia and Abkhazia?

(They are, after all picture perfect analogs to any rational, honest human.)

There can only be one answer: Machiavellian self-interest.