Picking the Right People

Best-selling author Jim Collins, writer of the widely lauded book Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap...and Others Don't (HarperCollins, 2001) plays by his own rules (see BW, 10/29/01, "Breaking Free of the Corporate Pack "). Collins retired from his formal faculty position at Stanford Graduate School of Business in 1995 to become a "self-employed professor" in Boulder, Colo., where he runs his management research laboratory and pursues his passion of rock climbing.

Despite attaining "guru" status as a result of his original book's success, Collins says he still keeps the schedule he did as a professor at Stanford. He recently spoke with BusinessWeek Online reporter Jeffrey Gangemi and agreed to answer some follow-up questions by e-mail. Here are edited excerpts.

Are you surprised by the success of Good to Great?
Yes. Sometimes you really get lucky in life, and Good to Great has been an extraordinary stroke of good luck -- far beyond our highest expectations.

How should individuals go about applying the Good to Great concepts to their individual career strategy?
They must follow the principle of "first who." The most important decisions you make are not what job to take, but with whom -- as in the specific people -- you will work. Finding quality mentors counts more at an early stage than perhaps any other aspect of a career decision.

Also, graduates should consider the following: 1. What are you deeply passionate about and love to do? 2. What are you genetically encoded for or what activities do you feel just made to do? 3. What makes economic sense or what can you do to earn money?

Those who have used this framework find it works best by first identifying a passion, and then moving to the other two circles. If you start with the economic circle but never find your passion, then you're unlikely to produce anything great.

How do you think outdoor activities like rock climbing mirror corporate leadership?
In climbing, the most important decisions are not about "what" -- what climb, what route, what strategy, what gear -- but about "who." Who should be your climbing partner? To whom can you trust your life? Who can think clearly under pressure? Who do you like to spend time with in beautiful and dangerous places? This idea of "first who" mirrors directly what we found in the best executives. They always think first about who should be on the bus, and then where to drive it.

Also, climbing teaches about taking responsibility for your decisions and facing reality square on. If you screw up, gravity doesn't say, "Well, your dog ate your route plan, so we'll give you a second chance today." If you fall, then gravity will exert its full force whether or not you have an excuse.

Why are business schools important?
Just as law school became a vital mechanism for building a society based on the rule of law, business schools can be a vital mechanism for building well-run organizations to accomplish much of society's essential work. Business schools can accomplish a dual role of giving young people the tool kit for operating in a capitalist society and inspiring them to lead with values.

When assembling your research team, how do you determine which are the best B-school students for the job?
We were incredibly fortunate to have a fabulous team [of MBA candidates and graduates] on Good to Great, and we could not have done the book without them. The main criteria for being on the team: You must be smart, curious, willing to walk the death march, and genetically encoded to be irreverent.

Will you ever consider going back to Stanford to teach?
I loved teaching MBA students at both Stanford and the University of Virginia. I learned at least as much from my students as they did from me. I would not be surprised to find myself back in the classroom one day.

Any other thoughts you'd like to share with our B-school audience?
I've had former students say to me something like, "I'm thinking of doing something else other than being in business, but I'm afraid that my MBA will be wasted." I respond by suggesting that we should think of the degree not as an MBA but as an MLA -- Master of Life Administration. The concepts of finance, risk management, decision making under uncertainty, organizational skills, cash flow management, positioning, leadership skills, and others are highly relevant ideas to almost any walk of life.