Deborah, first of all, I know that the MBA degree has grown significantly in popularity. As a result, many people may now feel that the degree is a golden ticket to success. Why, in your opinion, should an individual earn an MBA?

An MBA is a very comprehensive degree. It is one of the few masters degrees that a student can get without having prior coursework (ie., for a masters in electrical engineering you need to have prior engineering courses). A student can go in from just about any discipline and get a comprehensive business degree. In many schools, you have the opportunity to focus on what your goals and expectations are in the workplace. In past years, individuals thought that the MBA was a ticket to high-paying jobs in investment banking. Nowadays, employers see students who have a comprehensive knowledge of business and have an interest in the overall economy, i.e. marketing, strategy, etc. I think people are using the degree more comprehensively, instead of just in finance and on Wall Street. People can bring value in all of the functional areas. It's seen [by recruiters] as a broader degree.

Let's look at the other side of the equation. Why should an individual not go after the degree, or hold off for the time being?

Certainly a lot of students who do not have a business background or professional experience sit in my office and want to get into the graduate business program. And I tell them that what they're doing is putting an academic degree over an academic degree. It's a sandwich with nothing in the middle. The professional experience out in the world is what gives the practicality to the theory. At Olin, we try to make sure that every student has the opportunity for experiential learning outside the internship. Having three to five years of professional experience in between the academic and business degree gives the indivdual the opportunity to really understand the material, apply it to the real world, and learn from fellow students too. If you come into the classroom right out of undergrad, you haven't had a chance to really relate. For instance, if you hear about problems someone in finance had with interacting in the marketing department, then it's hard for you to relate as a student to what that means. And I think that professional business experience is very, very important.

Now, you've been evaluating applicants since 1993. This past class of '99 that was recently admitted is your fourth. Have you noticed any trends or differences between what the application process or applicant is like now compared with 1993? When did you earn your MBA from Maryland?

I got my MBA degree in 1991. And then spent a year working for URI [University of Rhode Island], then was recruited to come to Wash U. So I've seen quite a bit: It was a small, regional versus a large, well-known, international university.

Okay, so I guess you can go back to 1989, when you were an applicant. Have you seen any changes since then?

I think in the past 4 or 5 years, I've noticed a huge increase -- at least from other schools' prospective applicants -- in the average GMAT which is going up and up and up. And I find that fairly amazing. So it will be very interesting how the computer-adaptive test coming out this October from GMAC will impact that.

I think the students are becoming much more savvy about how they make their choices. They're looking at different schools and figuring out what attributes different schools have. I think that as the director of admissions and someone who has corporate experience, that I've worked very hard to explain the importance of evaluating the environment of each school and the culture. I think students are ready for that now, more than then. They're much more knowledgeable consumers now than they were in the past. And I think that's because b-schools are much more outward and in-depth about explaining their features. If a student isn't happy in his/her environment and is not in an academic program that helps them accomplish what they want to accomplish, then what they get is not going to be what they want, what they bought. I mean, it's [b-school education] a big purchase. You're looking at greater than $150,000 if you look at the opportunity cost of salaries and if you say tuition is $25,000 a year plus living expenses ($15,000). I work very hard to try and help students understand the economic argument, about making sure whether they've really evaluated the schools they're getting into.

Olin's applications have been steadily rising over the past couple of years, from from 809 in 1994 to roughly 1,044 this year. To what do you attribute this?

As we speak it's 1,060. I'd love to say it's because I'm an absolutely great marketer. But I'd have to say that Stuart Greenbaum, our dean, has really made some outstanding changes at our school. He continues to work and exceed students' expectations. I think what we're doing here at Olin with respect to our curriculum and program, that's been outstanding. There have also been media reports talking about us being one of the hot spots and that helps. But overall, it's clear that the economy is helping [all the schools]. This year we've actually had a real growth in our numbers as opposed to growth happening in MBAs at large, though.

How big is this year's class and how many people does the school need to admit to fill it?

It's going to be about 155, which is what we look for every year. We admit about 370 students. That's pretty much the same every year. We admitted less this year, maybe 10 or 12 less.

What is the yield? How many applicants who were accepted then enrolled?

It's around 36% of the 1,060 that applied. And of the 370 students that we admitted, 45% have accepted our offer.

Has that changed at all?

Our deposits to admit is up a few percentage points this year. And actually our admit to applicants is down from last year, (when) it was at 45%. We have been able to be more selective this year with our bigger pool.

In 1996, Wash U had the second highest non-US enrollment of our top 25 schools at 39% of the class. That's quite a high percentage. Are you looking at the same number for this year's class?

This year, at the moment I'm at 33%. And I say 'at the moment,' because sometimes for instance, students from mainland China can't get a visa. So the number fluctuates a bit.

Has Olin been traditionally strong in recruiting international students?

I think certainly all the schools have seen a major increase in the international applicant pool, and Olin is no exception to that. I do believe that we have always been strong in Korea and Japan. I've certainly noticed an increase in students applying from Taiwan, China, and India. All of the schools are also seeing rises in South America. So we're seeing a rise in matriculants from South America as well.

What types of efforts have you taken to cater to the international student?

This year we did something very different. For any of the admitted international students who we felt really needed some extra help in English skills we put together a program called the Olin MBA English as a Second Language Program. It included some of the standard type of ESL programming. For instance, presentation skills and grammar and writing skills. But we tailored all of the classes to the MBA program. And we included facets in the program to give students, for instance, the idea of how to communicate with professors. For instance, some foreign students think that not calling a professor "sir" will get them in trouble. Well that's obviously not true here in America. So we try to clue them in a little bit to the culture of Olin.

Every Friday they also go on field trip in St. Louis. In the past, they went to visit an investment bank, a manufactuing company, and a major brewery to give them some sense of how business works inside the U.S. They have not been exposed to that type of environment before, so they can see how people live and work in the U.S. It gives them a sense of place and scope here in the U.S. And certainly, St. Louis has some wonderful resources for us to do that. It's very easy for us to show them an array of corporate resources.

How about on the international recruiting end? How do you cater to the non-U.S. applicant there?

One thing we do is require a telephone interview. So all of our applicants are required to call and speak with our admissions team, and talk with them about why they're interested. And I'd like to mention that the interview is really a two-way street. It gives us an opportunity to talk with them and assess their communication skills. We really like to try and assess an individual as opposed to just rely on the marks they get on tests.

What are this year's application deadlines?

This year we're going to be running a series of deadlines and it's the first time we're doing it this way. The first deadline is December 16, and then it's once a month through the end of March. The second deadline is January 12, 1998, then it's February 16, and the final deadline is March 31, 1998.

Do you have an idea of how many seats or spots generally get filled per deadline?

Well, that's a tough one because we've never done this before. So I really don't know. I also know that our prospects are up by about 40% this year from my statistics. I'm hoping to help the process a little bit by creating a series of deadlines. Our deadline was previously March 31, but we were on a rolling admissions basis. And received a lot of apps by mid-February. So it wasn't evenly distributed.

Well, for example, you have four deadlines now. Do you see yourself choosing 25% of the class each deadline?

I don't see these being split up into quarters at all. I think it will make it easier for the students. If they apply at one school by January 12, and they can expect to hear by the end of February, then they know that if they apply at other schools at the same time, then they'll be in a position to make an informed decision about which school they want to attend.

Is there a disadvantage in applying to the final deadline? Or to the early deadline?

I would say that probably the first three deadlines would give them the best opportunity. That's not to say that competitive students aren't going to be admitted in the last one. If a competitive applicant hears back and they hear it early, it gives them more time to make a final decision. I hope students will apply early. One of the issues about whether to apply is financial aid. The students have to submit the FAFSA [Free Application for Federal Student Aid] and the government won't accept the FAFSA until January 1 -- that's the earliest. So a student could conceivably apply in December, get in, and could conceivably not know anything [about financial aid] until March.

What's the turnaround time for response?

We actually have a very good response time. We put down January 23 for the first the response date. February 20 is the second. April 10 is the third. And then May 22 is the last. Typically, we have been able to do significantly better than that. We try to get answers back as quickly as possible.

What connotes a completed application? What are the different variables that are assessed?

We ask for data about the individual demographic informational awards (for example, if a student has received awards from the undergraduate degree or from a company or for any extracurricular activities), work history (info about the companies the candidate has worked for, and the scope of responsibilities) and a resume, two recommendations (we prefer them coming from a professional that knows how they work, preferably a supervisor), transcripts from all educational institutions, and this year, we have three, 400 words-or-less essays and then there's a fourth set which are three, short, 150 words-or-less essays (two are mandatory and one is optional).

Can you prioritize these variables in order of importance? In other words, is the first thing you look at the GMAT, etc.?

I look at their work experience. We really look at candidates in a holistic type of sense. While everything is important, from a benchmark standpoint, initially a candidate has to have the academic ability to complete the program. We have a 0% attrition rate. Academically we want them to succeed. Once they reach that benchmark, then we really look for students who set and achieve challenging goals in all aspects of their lives -- from an academic standpoint, a community standpoint, a professional standpoint, and even a personal standpoint. What have they done with their lives? How did they go about setting goals and achieving those goals?

Do you encourage or care if candidates utilize software programs like MulitApp that expedite the entire process of filling out the applications materials?

No, I think it's excellent. I think it's a wonderful service for students.

Is there a pre-application process at Olin?

No there is not.

What tends to set admitted students apart from those who have excellent credentials but don't get an offer?

Probably they have not excelled professionally or their interpersonal skills are not good. Perhaps they can't communicate what they know to other people. If you have the knowledge, but you can't communicate it, then you're not going to be a very good manager.

How much weight does the GMAT carry for an application?

It's certainly one of the indicators of success and we do require it. And it's certainly not the only or most important thing we look at. I'll frequently pull the GMAT apart. So I'll look at the different component parts. If a history or political science major hasn't had to take a lot of formal coursework in the quantitative area, we have no way of assessing, from their transcript, whether they're capable of completing our program. But if they've done well on the quant part of their GMAT, then that question is answered.

What variable, in your opinion, is most important?

Again, it's the work experience and the abilty of the person to succeed in reaching whatever goals they've set for themselves.

Do you feel that there is any perceived difference between say a 660 and a 730?

If you look at the stats, cetainly from a percentile standpoint, the answer is yes. But if you look at the individual, the answer is very probably no. Actually, if you look at the research on the GMAT from GMAC [the Graduate Management Admissions Council], the GMAT is a relatively good indicator of how well an individual will do during the first year of a MBA program. But I've had individuals go through our program with GMATs in the low 500s that get better jobs than people in the 700s. GMAT is not an indicator of whether or not an individual is going to get a great job.

How many times is it "safe" to take the GMAT without losing credibility at your school?

I don't have a problem with students retaking the GMAT. They can retake it. I caution students to not continually take the GMAT without prepping, however. Sometimes I'll coach students and advise them to take a series of math courses. When someone calls me and indicates that they are not happy with their score, I'll ask them what their background looks like, and sometimes I'll coach them to take a course or two at a school near them. I try and tailor it for the person. For instance, if the applicant was a political science major, let's say he or she doesn't have a real strong math background ... it might help them to take a few classes -- like basic alegbra and geometry -- to rework their math proficiency and refamiliarize themselves with Pythagorean Theory and things like that.

Do you weigh the second or third GMAT score as heavily as the first?

Yes. There really isn't any change in perception.

Do you take into account the applicant's undergraduate school when assessing GPA? I mean, for last year's class, you had a GPA range of 2.5 - 3.95. Would a 3.95 from a less reputable school be weighed as heavily as a 2.5 from an Ivy League?

They're definitely weighed a little differently depending on school and on coursework. Students who have more rigorous academic coursework are going to be looked at differently. I'll qualify rigorous as being qualitative.

In your opinion what's more favorable: an applicant with a high GMAT and a low GPA or vice versa?

It really depends on the person because, again, we're getting back to 'who is the individual?' And does that individual want to be at the Olin school? And will they do well in our environment? Someone with a low GMAT, high GPA, the experiential learning opportunities, the individualized curriculum -- then that's just as good as a low GPA with the high GMAT. It depends more on the individual and whether they can excel in the Olin culture. This is not a place to come if you want to get lost in the crowd. We know everyone and we pay attention to everyone.

Are interviews at your school required?

Telephone interviews are required for international students and interviews are strongly recommended for domestics. Personal interviews are strongly recommended for domestic applicants. We do not, at the moment, have personal interviews in the international arena. We've been doing telephone interviews for many years now.

How does the interview fit into your overall evaluation of an applicant?

The interviews differ to a certain extent because telephone and face-to-face is different. We want to make sure that [a foreigner's] English skills are good enough to succeed at Olin because it is a very interactive program. If verbal skills are not up to speed, then a telephone interview helps us to assess that. Meeting a person face-to-face is very different than looking at piece of paper. It allows the applicants to present themselves as fully as possible. It is a positive opportunity for students, and for the school to talk with someone to find out why they want to come to Olin and what their motivation is for getting an MBA. Those answers will help us assess whether they jibe with our program offerings.

What should an applicant do to prepare for the interview?

I think anyone who is interested in an MBA program has some serious soul searching to do. They need to decide whether they really do or do not want the MBA, where they want to go, what kind of curriuclum they're interested in pursuing, what kind of career opportunities they want when they finish with the progam, and the type of MBA program environment they're interested in. It's certainly better to talk to someone who has done that.

Do you specifically, interview?

Certainly. Yes I do. Not as much as I have in the past, though.

What do you ask, generally?

Why they're interested in an MBA program, why they're interested in Olin, what they think that they'll contribute in and outside of the classroom, what type of community efforts they've been involved in. And from an individual standpoint, I'll tailor some questions to an individual. And then at the end, I ask a student if there's anything that they wish that I had asked that would give me an understanding of who they are ... to present themselves in the best possible light.

Do you ever ask the applicant whether Olin is their first choice? Or where else they have applied? Do you think this is important to know?

Certainly. I absolutely ask students where else they have applied. If you don't ask you don't get the answer. If they don't want to tell me, I don't push it. If a student is interested in three different schools and is principally interested in finance, then that allows me to do some comparative program analysis for them. I can't explain about the Investment Praxis, one of our experiential programs, if they don't tell me. It goes back to my marketing days from before the MBA program -- to be able to compare different product lines.

Here's an extremely focused question, but one I've heard voiced by some worried applicants out there: what's the proper format for a thank you note to follow up an admissions interview -- handwritten or typed? Or is a thank you note even necessary? Does it have some kind of effect on that person's evaluation, be it tacit or what have you?

I think that thank you notes certainly show a positive effort by the applicant. One of the things we're looking at is: is the individual going to get a good job? When a student goes on a job interview they should obviously write a thank you note. Handwritten or typed is a personal style issue. Both can be tastefully done.

What mistakes do people commonly make in essays?

Spelling mistakes and grammatical mistakes ... I just can't believe it when I see them. I know that students try to look at the different bulletins and use common language that will express that the individual has read the bulletin and is a good fit, but I've seen entire phrases lifted right off of the bulletin as well. Essays lifted out of "How to write an essay" books are not good. Things that are just not a personal, genuine expression of their interests and goals. Generic essays -- while the essay gets sent to the Olin School, there is sometimes another school's name on it.

Now, you mentioned earlier that you've changed the essay format. Why is that?

I really felt as though we could give students a little more structure. Previously, the essays didn't have any limit, so we tried to put a little more focus on them.

We ask students to describe their career goals and to tell us how the Olin School will help them meet those objectives. The next question is: Outside of their career, what accomplishment brings them the most satisfaction. That gives us the opportunity to look at how they look at extracurriculars.

The next one is: 'Discuss a challenge in your life, why is it a challenge?' What you've learned from the challenge. We're looking for students who meet challenging goals in all aspects of their lives.

The two short (150 words) questions are: a) 'Of all people past and present, I would most like to meet...' b) 'In my leisure time I do?' And that's always interesting, we get some amazing answers. c) And the optional question is: 'I wish the admissions committee had asked me ...' -- which lends an open-ended opportunity for the applicants to present themselves in the best possible light.

What type of recommendation should an applicant avoid -- besides the obvious?

I think references from close family friends are a bit tricky and can be not helpful because, for the most part, they'll put down that they've known them [the applicant] for most of their lives, and it becomes more of a personal reference, rather than a professional one. So, I think it's important that candidates provide professional references over personal references. We will accept more than two references if they want to provide a personal reference that speaks to their skills in a unique way. The professional references should come first, though. It's also very difficult for a prospective student to go back to an academic reference unless they have maintained a relationship. Because it's really hard for academicians to remember all of the students they have had.

What if the recommendation is glowing, with the recommender gushing about the applicant. Does this make you leery? Should the candidate feel worried if the recommendation is full of superlatives and very few negatives for parity?

I think that that's fairly common. and I think it's hard to get away from that. If that's the case, then you would expect a superlative type of recommendation. But it's always helpful to temper it with how the candidate has grown and in what areas the candidate needs growth.

What's the ideal amount of work experience you're looking for?

We like to see somewhere between, say, three to six years of work experience. And we certainly don't always have candidates with that. But that's the bulk of our students. And that's the number of years of work experience that MBA recruiters are looking for.

What can an applicant with little to no work experience do to bolster his or her chances of acceptance?

They normally have extremely good GPAs, GMATs, very, very, good corporate summer experiences, a high level of maturity, and a high degree of focus. So, they do have a hole in their file, and that is no full-time post-graduate work experience. In order to reach par, the rest of their file has to be of very high quality.

How big a percentage of the class would you estimate the 'no-work experience wonders' comprise?

Seven percent. And actually, we have a 4-3 program with our undergrad institution -- 4% of that 7% are from that program. And the 3% are from other undgrad institutions who come straight to our MBA program.

Does it hurt an applicant if he or she doesn't have any (extracurricular activities)?

It doesn't help. We really do look for extracurriculars and community activities. It is becoming more of a factor. And one of the pieces that Stuart [Greenbaum, dean of the Olin School] brings is his unflagging interest in helping the community and giving back to it. So we're very excited to be hosting the GBS [Graduate Business Conference, a three-day, student-run event that is hosted by a different school each year and allows student representatives from around the nation -- including Canada -- to compare programs and network with executives] and the theme is "Business in the Community." There will be something like 150 school representatives ... One activity will be working in the community in a volunteer sense.

Okay Deborah, if you were put back into the applicant's shoes, how would you, or how did you go about the entire application process -- from the initial investigation stage to the actual applying?

I think the students now have access to all kinds of resources that weren't available three years ago. So they [applicants] really need to look at what the curriculums are of the schools and try and decide whether or not certain schools are going to meet or exceed their expectations from an academic and personal standpoint. How will the career resources group help you in your job research? Or, will the academic portion of the program help you fill the gaps in your knowledge and enhance your knowledge in order to meet you goals? I think prospective students need to be very realistic about what they want to do and how to go about doing it. If they want to go to a general management or operations program -- take a very good look at the curriculums, go to the schools, definitely visit your short list. There should be some avenue to talk to students, alumni, to find out what you want to know.

How many schools should the short list be narrowed down to?

I think certainly a half dozen is almost a lot. In the final analysis, if they get down to three or four, then they can reasonably go and visit those schools and find out whether or not they're good fits. I can't tell you how many times I've heard students say after our preview weekend (which happens on January 30 - 31) how wonderful it was to meet students and professors. We will go from a choice to a first choice, and that's because of what they see when they get here. How comfortable the feel is.

How many applicants are waitlisted?

We usually waitlist maybe 20 - 30 students ... depends on the year.

Is being tacked on to the waitlist a fate worse than death? I mean, how many are taken (accepted) from the waiting list?

It's again dependent on the year. This year, not a whole lot. In some years we certainly have taken some off. This year it was 3 or 4 out of 20 - 30.

Do you encourage rejected applicants to re-apply?

I do sometimes. And certainly if they haven't been offered a seat because of a lack of work experience or lack of particular skills -- quantitative for example -- I will coach students to take courses at community colleges to beef up their quant ability. For some reason, there are many students who don't realize how quantitative MBA programs are. If they don't have a solid quant base, then they're going to be really miserable in an MBA program.

WashU is a member of the Consortium for Graduate Study in Management, is that right?

That's correct. In fact we were one of the founding members. One of our professors emeritus by the name of Sterling Shoen -- he did research in the 1960s and found that there were very few African-American men in the workforce. And he got together with [University of] Wisconsin and Indiana [University] to found the Consortium for Graduate Study in Management.

Every year we -- I'm on the board of the Consortium -- we offer close to 300 full-tuition scholarships to under-represented minorities (African-Americans, Hispanic-Americans, and Native-Americans] to 11 schools. Bigger schools obviously have more students. So we, Olin, have maybe five to 10. And University of Texas at Austin has maybe 20 - 25 [the participating schools of the Consortium include: Olin, U Texas, U Wisconsin, Indiana Unversity, UC Berkeley, U Michigan, NYU, UNC - Chapel-Hill, U Rochester, USC, and UVA].

As you previously mentioned, Dean Stuart Greenbaum has really helped to give Olin a makeover in the last couple of years. For example, he is held largely responsible for upping the number of job offers by 30% over two years, and he is working to be responsive to student body concerns. Have there been any innovations implemented into the Olin curriculum over the past year?

Last year we implemented a mini-term system so students have two 7-week miniterms within a full semester. So we've taken the essence of the core into a shorter class. So what does a manager really need to know in financial accounting? Instead of devoting a full semester to this, we break it down. We shrank the core of the program to 40% and therefore the elective part of the program is now 60%. We begin the program with an introductory strategy course and that is intended to pose the questions that a manager asks and to give the students some sense of the interaction between the functional areas of a corporation. This was implemented last year.

Okay let's scale it back to a very general level ... Fill in the blank: You should come to Olin if you're most interested in what?

We are a general management program but we are very good at teaching strategy, finance, marketing, and operations. I think from a professional standpoint -- we have a professional development that is a pass/fail program. And it allows applicants to gauge their strengths and weaknesses and craft an academic plan that addresses what those strengths and weaknesses are and what their career goals are.

And on the flipside, fill in the blank: You should stay away from Olin if you're most interested in what?

We don't have real estate here. We don't have insurance.

Who are your toughest competitors? In other words, with which schools do you most often compete for students?

Probably Michigan, Kellogg, Chicago, and Indiana. And it varies between those schools.

Let's finish up on a lighthearted note. What's the funniest thing an applicant has every done to win a spot at Olin?

Well, I was talking with a student over the telephone from Wisconsin who was in the cheese business a couple years back. And I thought that was really interesting so we ended up rapping a little bit about cheese and the business. He ended up scheduling an interview with us during a Preview Weekend and walked into the interview with a five pound hunk of cheese. I just couldn't believe it! And we at the admissions office all enjoyed it ... for several weeks.

And did it work? Did he earn a spot in the class?

Well ... yes he did, but it wasn't just because of the cheese. I mean, he was certainly qualified! He graduated a few years back, but every we time we speak, the cheese incident seems to creep into our conversation.

Would you like to add anything before we finish?

Well, we are, this year going to be one of the first 15 or 20 schools to use an interactive, web-based application for the MBA and we'll be using it for the first time for this next group applying. The company involved is called Snap Technologies Inc. and the site is called www.mba.CollegeEdge.com. And it should be a big help to prospective students because it will be a much easier application process. Some of the schools on board with that are Chicago, Stanford, Olin, and I think Berkeley and NYU. So what they're doing is putting different schools' applications on the Web, and students enter common information once. They don't need to download it, it [the program] saves it [the individual's application form] on the Web, and they can go back to it to add at a later date. It has checklists so that they know how much of the app is left.

Schools may choose to have Snap collect the application fee. But the other part of it is that students will be able to electronically transmit a major part of the application and will no longer have to worry about the mail service delivering their materials on time. For example, students from international countries sometimes have to deal with a slow mail service. We're (Olin) going to be asking students for the application fee and their transcript [to be sent by mail].