Keith, you've been working in SMU's MBA program for the last six years, and you've also earned an MBA. So you've both experienced the application as a prospective student and as an evaluator. Have you seen any changes in the process?

Well, in general, the students have become very serious about their pursuit of an MBA and in their investigation of which school to attend. They're not just choosing the schools because of the location or because so and so went there. They're looking at what the school has to offer and at what the experience may be like. So I think they're taking their search much more seriously than say, 10 years ago. At Cox, I've seen that quite a bit. While we're interviewing them, they're interviewing us. And they want to know what they're going to get out of it.

Part of the advantage that we [Cox] have to offer is that industry said that they needed well-rounded business people -- people who could communicate, and who could become leaders -- and so we developed the Business Leadership Center. And we have students ask about that, so we [Cox] have started adding features to the program that we think are value-added, and hopefully that's what corporations like.

How many apps did you receive this year?

We received about 490 apps. Now that's probably not as many as other top schools, but we do something a little differently here. From the moment that we talk to them [applicants], if we don't think there's a match then we ask them not to apply or suggest other alternatives. We give them a lot of personal attention. We tell people not to apply if there's no chance that they can be admitted. If they can strengthen their application then we'll tell them. But we're trying to do this to keep the volume of apps down so that we can give them more attention. We spend a lot of time with each person that applies (inquiry, review, etc). We want them to really get to know us because if we decide to accept them we want them to know who we are.

How much time do you spend on an application?

Probably two to three hours from the start of an applicant's inquiry to the decision. We try to put as much personalized attention into the process as possible ... starting with the pre-app, where we're on the phone talking with the applicant, and then after they've applied and they're waiting to hear, and then if after they've been accepted and they may come back in for some more question and answer. Part of the hallmark of our program is the personal attention. We try to carry that all the way through the admissions process, to the MBA experience, and into the alumni years.

Maybe 1/3 or half of that number [490] are counseled not to apply [in other words about 170 additional people on top of the 490 apps recieved are asked not to apply]. It's kind of conjecture because we meet them at all stages. If somebody wants to know if they are material for the program, we'll go over the criteria with them, and they're not really a hard number, and at that point we say you need some more work, or your GMAT is abysmal. Then we'll tell them that, 'you should improve so and so' ... and it usually gets them to either not apply or gets them to put some more work in to get in. So we try to take the time with each person because we think that stating that info in a clear and up front manner is very important to somebody.

So the 490 applications received is up from last year, correct?

That is up from last year. It's up about 10%.

Can you give a breakdown of the last five years?

In 1993 we received 355 apps, and this fall we'll wind up with about 490. So, since 1993 we've seen about a 37% increase. I expect that to increase next year.

What factor[s] can you attribute this rise in apps to?

I think, since I've been here, I would have to say it's clearly the booming economy in Dallas. Dallas ranks third in the U.S. as the site of corporate headquarters. We're also sixth in the world for international headquarters. So people are starting to think of Dallas because of that. The last number I heard was that in 1996, Dallas created 70,000 new jobs in the area, and I think we are reporting about 100,000 new people in the the area as well. They're projecting that by the year 2015, there will be an increase of two million people in the area. I think that's the primary reason.

NAFTA helped us a lot too. NAFTA is slow in developing. But Dallas continues to be the crossroads for business to Mexico. For some reason Dallas has caught on as the gateway more so than Houston or Austin. So there are opportunities developing because of that. And the cost of living in Dallas is phenomenally low compared to New York; it's less than half the cost.

Are you seeing an increase in international applications?

Yes.

From which geographic areas are you seeing the sharpest rise?

Mostly from Asia. That is really coming on strong. The People's Republic of China, I think everybody's [other b-schools] inunadated with Chinese applicants. But Taiwan and Korea, and for us, Japan is starting to discover Dallas as well. We're actually starting to see a few more from Thailand as well.

Now, in line with Cox's small applicant pool is its small class size -- a strong plus that allows for personalized, one-on-one faculty to student attention. How big is the class at SMU and how many people does the school need to admit to fill it?

We'll enroll about 150 students and we'll break that into three sections. We have two joint-degree programs, one of which is the Master of Arts/MBA, which about 10 applicants come into (the dual degree is specifically designed for people involved in the arts, who are preparing to "manage symphonies or other non-profits") and then we have a few JD/MBAs.

And do you have a part-time program?

We do. We have about 450 people. It's a lock-step program. So you can only start in the fall or spring and you stay with your class as you go through

How many candidates did you admit this year?

This year we admitted 282 for the full-time. So, about 50% of the ones that we accepted are going to matriculate.

Cox was the second least selective b-school (ahead of only Thunderbird), accepting 62 percent of its applicants. Has the school tightened its admissions standards? Or can you explain why the percent of admitted students is so high?

We've tightened up. We're putting much more emphasis in the work and the quality of the work. In fact, we've allowed a small percentage in from the undergrad program in the past, but we are seriously considering doing away with that, and requiring everyone to have work experience (undergrad students comprised about 10% of the class last year).

Cox, in 1996, also had the lowest percentage of female students (19%) of our schools in the Top 50. Is the school working to improve this situation?

Actually 19% was two years ago ... Last year it was 34% [BW records show 29% in 1996] and this year it's going to be 34%. So about two years ago we started working very hard on that. I found some fabulous female students who were exceptional salespeople and we put them on the phone to talk to applicants and it paid off.

How about on a religious level. Is a majority of the student body Methodist? Does it hurt a candidate if they are not of that persuasion?

Oh gosh no. The university keeps those stats because it's a private school. I was told that the second largest denomination of the students is catholic [for the university at large]. And in the b-school we don't even keep that figure. Oh no, not at all. That [religion] has nothing to do with the application process or the admission decision.

Okay, let's get into the actual application process. Could you tell me what aspects of the applicant you evaluate during the process? What is required of a complete application?

They have the application form, two recommendations, and then we have the essay questions. We just revised them for this next year. There are four essays (one is optional) ... and a fifth one if they want to be considered for a merit-based scholarship. And on top of that, of course, we need a transcript, the GMAT, or TOEFL [Test of English as a Foreign Language] if you're applying from abroad.

Could you prioritize these factors in order of importance?

Not really. There are three evaluators that look at the application very, very closely. I read it, then a student reads it, and then the person conducting the interview will read it. And during the pre-app process, we'll take a quick look at the work experience, GMAT and GPA. And well see how those are. If they're all strong, then the application moves onward. But if one of them is weak, then we look into it.

We're looking at a number of factors. The GMAT is only one of those factors. We're really not looking at the total [GMAT] score, we're looking at the quantitative percentile versus the verbal percentile, and we want to see a balance between those two. We look at the recommendations as well, and we start to develop opinions.

What tends to set admitted students apart from those who have excellent credentials but don't get an offer?

One of the things we're looking at is leadership qualities. If someone has a lot of work [experience], but if they lack drive, initiative, team leadership, then they're probably not going to be admitted. We're also looking at progression in work experience. We're looking at whether people are tackling new projects, or whether they've moved up the ladder. If their experience is not in business, then we're looking for transferable skills that they can apply to the corporate setting. Do they have good communication skills? Or leadership skills? Can they work with people, or deal with a broad range of personalities?

How do you judge that?

We look at the recommendations, we look at what extracurricular activities they've been involved in ... Have they taken on projects voluntarily? And in whatever field they've been, we're looking at how they contribute to the organization and how they carried out their responsibilities. If they took the job and they've been in the same position for three years then we wonder about them. We're looking for someone who's aggressive and takes the initiative, the go-getter.

Is there a tacitly understood cutoff for GMAT scores or for GPA?

No, not really. If something's really low, then we're going to really delve into the application. We look at the person as a whole, not in pieces. We're trying to evaluate this individual in terms of their potential for success, because there are people who have done phenomenally well in the program and in the business who did poorly on the GMAT.

Which scenario is better: high GPA/low GMAT or low GPA/high GMAT?

Well, it depends on how long you've been working at what you're doing. If you've been out of school for a long time and been in the workforce for the last 8-10 years and have some accomplishments, then I would say that the GPA and GMAT don't hold as much importance, but I would look closer at the GPA in that situation. If, on the other hand, they've been out of school for only three years, then we would expect a higher GMAT ... they don't have quite the track record at that point [in terms of work experience].

Is an applicant with a GMAT score of 750 ever rejected?

Sure.

For what reasons theoretically?

If they're not a team player, if they can't get along wth the other players in the organization. If they lack initiative, a drive. It takes a lot to get into this program and to get that job. And people that don't have the drive or the initiatve we just think are going to be lost in our program.

How many times is it "safe" to take the GMAT without losing credibility at your school?

Well, I think about three. It depends, but I'd say three.

Do you weigh one's GPA according to the quality of the undergrad institution?

Yes, definitely ... and the major. If someone majored in History and they went to a school that we would not consider to be terribly demanding then we wouldn't weight that GPA as heavily as someone who went to a better school for finance or engineering. I can't quantify that but we certainly do take that into consideration. In the first example, we'd be looking at the work experience and the GMAT. In the seciond case, we would care about the GMAT or work experience but the GPA could be a full point lower and we would still take them into consideration.

How about work experience? What, in your mind, is the ideal amount of work experience?

I don't really have a number. Its more of a quality-type issue. I would say two years is not a cutoff for us, but after two years, the individual starts to get into the routine and they see what Corporate America is about. When we see two-plus years, we think the individual will see the benefits of our program more readily. Our average for this year's class is 50 months. That's over four years, and that's really what we like. But obviously we will take people with less experience.

Is there such a thing as having too much work experience?

Well, in conjunction with their career objective there could be. If they've been in the same industry doing the same thing for 10 to 15 years and they now want to change totally, and they've never done anything in, for example, finance before -- let's say the individual has been in marketing and sales for the last decade -- then we'd be very leery of accepting somebody like that. It's not the number of years. It's more the expectations aren't consistent with what we can provide.

How about on the flip side, does an applicant applying right out of college stand a chance of getting into Cox?

Very slim.

What would a college grad have to do?

Well they're going to have to have a very strong GPA and a very strong GMAT. They're going to have to have a sense of who they are, where they're going, and be very focused in what they want to do. If they can convince me that it's better for them to do this now before they have work experience, then there's possibly a chance.

Sounds like a tall order!

Well it is! Very few make it and it will be tougher this year.

I understand that Cox requires interviews, is that correct?

Correct.

How should a candidate prepare for an interview?

Well, we prefer to do the interviews only after the application has been submitted so we thoroughly understand the individual ... I think the best thing that they can do is to be themselves. If they're acting out some kind of rote answers, that's not good at all. They have to clearly communicate to us what their objectives and goals are to getting an MBA. And then we want to spend time explaining what we can provide to them. If they can convey that there's a good match here .... The applicant has to convince us that they clearly understand what the MBA is all about, that they're realistic about what it can provide, that it's not a panacea, and we feel that there's a seriousness of purpose here, then we get quite excited about that. We're really interested in people who are interested in the program.

This is how the work experience ties in. If they've had several years of work experience then they can begin to appreciate the value of the MBA and what we have to offer. A lot of students are surprised what we have to offer. Because we have our Business Leadership Center, and through that we expect our students to improve their time-management skills, written skills, presentation skills. We expect them to not only do academic work, but also to take these seminars and improve themselves professionally.

We're up to 35 different seminars that we offer [at the Business Leadership Center]: "Business Writing," "Consulting Skills," "Group Dynamics," "Integrity-Driven Leadership," "Motivating Others to Excel," and "Negotiating Skills." These are just a few of the issues that the seminars tackle. There are other things that we do. Every student is put into a 360-degree profile assessment where we have their peers and professors evaluate them. And based upon those strengths and weaknesses they can then pick the leadership seminars that would be most advantageous to them.

The networking you can do in Dallas is phenomenal. We have our executive mentors, our Caruth Institute For Owner Managed Business (the entrepreneur wing of the progam). They are working with companies in the metroplex [the area within a 20-mile radius of Dallas, such as Ft. Worth, Richardson (where Frito Lay and JC Penney are located) and Plano (where EDS is located)], students have the advantage of networking through that.

So if we find a student that's going to take advantage of these opportunities, with the initiative and the aggressivness, then we get excited.

Let's move on to the essays. How many are there? What do they encompass?

There are five essays. The first one asks you to discuss your career progression. And the next part of that question asks what prompted you to seek an MBA degree and what type of job you see yourself immediately in after receiving your MBA. The third part of the question asks what your ultimate career aspirations are. And the last part asks you to describe your plans to achieve them [your career aspirations].

The second question is: "What unique qualities and experiences would you bring to the Cox MBA program?"

The third question asks you to be your own counselor: "What aspects of your personality or background presents the most obstacles to achieving your goals?"

And the optional questions ask you to provide any other information you want us to know about yourself that the application doesn't cover.

What mistakes do people commonly make in essays?

If they're full of mispelled words and bad punctutation and the candidate is simply not taking the time to proofread it, then that tells me that this person was not willing to spend the time to put their best foot forward. Also, sometimes applicants tend to ramble. We're looking for the candidates' ability to communicate clearly. If they've thought this through, then it comes out in the essay.

Do you frown upon applicants who use the multi-app program, the b-school application software that speeds the amount of time and work the candidate puts into the application?

No, anything that makes it easier is fine with me.

And lastly, the recommendations. How many do you ask for?

Two

What type of recommendations should an applicant try to stay away from ... besides the obvious?

We really would like to hear from somebody that they've reported to. So the CEO really isn't going to work at all. Unless they report to the CEO, it doesn't really impress us because usually the CEO is a friend of the family. So we want somebody that works beside them, that has had to depend on them to get the job done. We really want someone who knows them in a working environment.

How important is it for a candidate to demonstrate his or her amount of community service?

We want to see what community service they have. But we don't want them to do it just to put it on their resume. We want to see a consistency in their community service or in their involvement with other people. So it doesn't have to be community service per se, but it has to be involvement with groups or people. Where have they been responsible for leading the troupe or helping the group achieve some results?

Does it hurt without any?

If they don't have any, then we wonder why. If everything else looks good, then we probe. I'd say its a flag, but not a bright red flag.

How badly does a candidate hurt his/her chances by not visiting the school?

If we're on the fence with an individual and we haven't physically talked to them and interacted, then it probably hurts them. And we really prefer them in person, but we will do the phone interview if that's the only way they can do it. In those circumstances, let's say they're on the fence. In that circumstance, it can hurt them. And quite frankly it's a disadvantage to them. It's to their advantage to know what they're buying and what they're getting into.

What are the application deadlines for this year (Class of '98)?

We don't have any deadlines. We have preferred dates. If they want an early decision, then we would like to see their application before Thanksgiving. They'll get a response before the end of the year. If they get their app in after Thanksgiving, but before the end of January, then we can give them another early decision and that would be in February. But they are on a rolling admissions basis. The key here is if they're going to be applying for a merit-based scholarship, they should apply early.

When are the responses sent out?

It could take anywhere from two to four weeks for a turnaround, depending on if they're going to come for an interview and schedule that.

What is the latest you can apply?

You can theoretically apply until the class is full. But you're taking a big risk. April/June is really the latest.

Does Cox have a waitlist?

Yes we do.

How many applicants are waitlisted on average?

Twenty or so ... around 15 to 25.

How many are taken (accepted) from the waiting list?

I think this year we took about five off. So it's not impossible, but unusual to get taken off.

Do you encourage rejected applicants to re-apply?

No. If we counseled them to not apply [during the pre-app process], then they're really not an applicant. If they've applied and we've rejected them, it could depend on the reason we rejected them. If someone applies with zero work experience, but has solid GPA and GMAT scores, we would say, 'look you need some work experience, and you would be a good candidate after you've done it.'

Are there scholarships available? For minorities? For international students?

The merit-based scholarship is available to everybody. There's not x number of scholarships, there's the fund that's available and, usually $1 million - $1.2 million is available. An applicant applies if they want one. The award varies all across the board.

Now one of the biggest knocks on Cox is it's lack of reputation. It appears that much of Cox's strength (as far as recruiters are concerned) is confined to Texas. Is this true? Has Cox been working to branch itself out?

I don't see our reputation limited to Texas really any more. But you have to remember that we don't have a lot of grads, so the word's not spreading that quickly. But our grads are branching out and employers have been happy. I think one of the keys for us is our Business Leadership Center. They've [Cox grads] really got the people skills. So companies are really impressed. And we've had companies coming to us that we've never had before based on the performance of grads at those companies.

How about for the rest of the country, recruting wise? Has the number of on-campus recruiters increased over the past couple of years?

It has, definitely. The last thing I saw was that it was up significantly from last year to this year.

What do you think are strongest areas of study at Cox?

The Finance Department is phenomenal. Actually, finance/accounting is very, very strong. The Marketing Department has gotten some great professors. And then I would say that we turn out a lot of consultants. It's really not any one department ... And our Caruth Institute for Owner Managed Business offers four classes at the graduate level that are outstanding ("Venture Financing," "Planning and Control for the Growing Business," "Starting a Business," and "Managing the Entrepreneurial Business").

Given that Cox is located in Dallas, is there a large amount of the curriculum dedicated to oil & gas management?

Well, Dallas' oil industry is starting to get big again. We have the Maguire Oil & Gas Insitute, where students can get involved in the oil and gas industry. There's a particular course, "Oil & Gas Economics," that is quite helpful. So, the students are able to leverage the institute's contacts to get into the industry. Students interested in oil and gas do quite well here. But I wouldn't say that that's the thing that we're known for.

What are the up-and-coming academic areas?

MIS is certainly coming on strong. Organizational behavior and business policy are also very solid.

What type of student should stay away from Cox. In other words, what academic programs does SMU not provide?

Human resources management or transportation or things like that, we just don't offer.

Who are Cox's toughest competitors? In other words, with which schools do you most often compete with for students?

University of Texas at Austin is a tough competitor. UT is the only school locally that we compete with. I'm not saying that we don't share apps with other schools in the state. But it's clearly the top 20, top 10 in the nation that we compete with. You go out west, and we compete with Stanford, and you go east and there's Duke, and even in California, there's UCLA. So there's a lot here nationally that we're competing against. This is not to say that we do not compete with Rice, though.

Has Cox hired a new dean? I know that Dean David Blake, who was at the post since 1990, recently retired.

Yes. On July 1 we hired our new dean. His name is Albert W. Niemi Jr.

Does Dean Niemi's appointment signal that the school will be heading in a new direction?

Let me say this: I think that he is going to build on the foundation of what's here. Is he going to radically change things? No. He's going to add to the foundation and build upon it.

Is there anything else you would like to add before we end?