Don, you're about to enroll your fourth class at Chicago. Over that time, have you noticed any changes in the admissions process or in the applicants?

I don't know that there's been a major change in the way in which we evaluate candidates ... that has pretty much stayed the same. We've been evaluating candidates the same way for a number of years now. However, we've seen an increase in the number and quality of our applicant pool.

Generally speaking, b-schools have been seeing a marked rise in applications over the past five years. Chicago, also showed a steady climb in numbers over that time, peaking at 3,637 apps in 1996. However this year, apps dipped a bit. What do you attribute this to? First off, what is the official number received for the Class of '99?

The total number of applications we received this year was 3,431. One of the things that I've talked about with my collegues at the top 25 schools is, as word had gotten out about the increase in applications -- which means that admissions has become a more selective process -- that not as many people are willing to apply. As the class profiles went up in terms of GPA and GMAT scores, and the amount of professional work experience, what we tended to find is that some individuals decided not to apply. They [the prospective applicants] were turned off by the fact that they might not fare very well in these larger, more competitive pools. And that's been a little discouraging. There are no cut-offs in any part of the GSB application. In other words, I've never said that we can't accept someone with x GMAT or x GPA. I think that certain schools are becoming so selective in what type of applicant they accept, that the prospective student doesn't want to take the time or spend the money to fill out an application.

Have you tried to encourage these disenchanted prospective applicants at all?

What we're now doing in our admissions materials and on our website is really trying to spell out very clearly that our admissions decisions are based on every part of the application. We do not weight any particular aspect of the application more than another aspect of the app. And, there is no cut off or quota system in place as far as academic scores or work experience are concerned. If we get a GMAT that is less than 600, for example, it simply -- by itself -- does not keep anybody from being accepted.

At the MBA Forums that we attend and in our catalogue, we hope to get this info out to our prospective applicants. On the one hand, because we get so many applications, we won't be able to accept everybody. But there is no line drawn, where all of our successful applicants have to have a 700 GMAT or a 3.8 GPA or unbelievable extracurriculars to be accepted into the GSB.

How many spots are the 3,431 candidates competing for?

517 is what we've got for the incoming class. The number of spots is never the same each year. It fluctuates anywhere between 505 and 525. But an average of 510 spots is what I'm going for every year.

I know many applicants are concerned about the make-up and personality of their classmates. Do you feel that Chicago suffers from an "egghead syndrome" or an overabundance of "quant-jocks?

Not anymore. If you had interviewed me during my first year on the job [in 1993], I would have said, 'absolutely yes.' One of the three misperceptions that we have tried to address is this very issue -- that our student body is made up of quant jocks who spend all their time in the library doing regression analysis. That is just not true. Our class is very diverse in terms of background, educational experience, interests, hobbies, extracurricular opportunities, community service ... they represent the broad spectrum: conservatives, liberals ... Our students are as well-rounded as any.

As a means of overcoming this misperception, we invite applicants to come and visit our campus. We have added to our recruitment program more opportunities for prospective applicants to speak with current MBA students. For example, we have started a "Student Host Program" which pairs a visitor with a student for the entire day. We've also started a daily admissions information session that we offer Mondays through Fridays from 11am - 12pm throughout the entire year (from October to April). They are led by three people: two GSB MBA students and one member of the admissions staff, and last about an hour. The admissions officer gives a brief introduction, providing background information about the GSB, and then leaves the room. That allows the group to ask a wide-range of candid questions of the GSB students. Attendance at the information sessions fluctuates between 10-15 people each session.

There are two more ways that we try to correct the misconception surrounding GSB. There are "Super Saturday Interviews," which happen the first Saturday after our application deadlines. They are held here on campus, and (this year) we probably had 100-150 students (per Super Saturday) who were interviewed by alumni and had a chance to learn more about our program. And, during these sessions, prospective applicants also have a Q&A with students over lunch. And finally, we host two campus visitation times during our Fall Preview (which is set-up for prospective students) and our Admit Weekend in the spring (which is oriented for candidates who are already admitted and want to become better acquainted with the school) -- which are exceptional times for people to get an idea about what the lifestyle and Chicago MBA experience is really like.

So, our "Students Host" program, the "Daily Info" sessions, and "Super Saturdays" have done a lot to convey the true message about what we are all about. I think the "quant jock" perception has greatly changed.

A great deal of interest is generated by Chicago's top-notch finance program ... how many applicants on average do you think are accepted without having ever worked in the financial field? I mean, is finance experience a prerequisite to entrance into the Chicago MBA program?

Absolutely not. This is an estimate, but I would say probably at least half of those that we admit do not have finance backgrounds. Many want to get into the field, but many do not have experience in it coming in.

Have you seen a rise in international apps?

Yes. That's been steady. As the pool has gone up, so have the international apps. So we're getting apps from a broader base of applicants from outside the States.

From which geographic areas?

Primarily Latin America and Europe have shown the greatest rise. We haven't seen a drop in Asia (an area where Chicago has consistently been strong), but these other parts of the world have shown an increase.

What can you attribute this to?

We have started to do [in the international arena] what we've done in the States for many years, and that is to hold admission sessions where prospective students are invited to come and meet with alumni and admissions staff for two hours. They are very informal sessions where we primarily just answer their [prospective students'] questions. They give applicants a chance to see alumni and talk about the Chicago MBA over drinks and hors d'ouvres. These sessions started last year (1996) in Mexico City and Toronto. This year we plan to expand our locations to Seoul, Tokyo, Santiago, Sao Paulo, and Buenos Aires.

The return has been phenomenal for both our admit weekends and receptions. 81% of those who attended the admit weekend are coming this year, and over 70% of those who went to our receptions and who applied, got in and are coming .. though there is perhaps some overlap here [between the applicants who participated in both the admit weekend and receptions].

In addition, we took an international tour with 28 schools in 1995 to Latin America. That was phenomenal for us. We have also tapped into our alumni a little bit more in some of these areas around the world, to have them conduct interviews and stay in touch with interested prospective students. They've (GMAC, the Graduate Management Admission Council) also expanded the MBA Forums as well. We've had some very, very good responses from Paris, London, and Frankfurt. So I think we've generated more of a desire on the international front to attend Chicago for the MBA degree.

The class of 1995 had only 26 full-time minority students, while 1996 had only about 12. What is the outlook for the incoming 1997 class?

At this point it appears that about 20 - 22 minority students will be enrolled in the Class of 1999. Though I'm not exactly sure about the correct number. But, we are hopefully rounding the bend. Those numbers, by the way, do not include Asian students. Our minority group is comprised of African Amercans, Hispanic-Americans, and Native Americans.

Is there any reason why your minority number are that low?

That's a good question and it's something that we're trying to determine. In April of 1997, our Dean (Robert Hamada) hosted a town meeting and invited our minority alumni to meet with him for a Sunday morning brunch. Set-up like an open forum, he wanted to hear from grads what they felt about their experiences and also hear about why the school wasn't attracting minorities. I think what was interesting -- what seemed to come out of the meeting -- was that there were some perceptions that for some reason we [Chicago GSB] didn't seem to want minorities here.

Again, this is not quite the case. We have certainly tried to beef up our efforts. We do compete with some organizations that sponsor scholarship programs -- like the Consortium for example. We are not part of the Consortium for Graduate Study in Management nor can we provide scholarships that compete with them. I would deny that money is the sole deciding-factor that dictates where people go. But I also believe that when you get down to where you have to choose between several top-25 schools, money does play a part.

We brought on a new director of diversity relations, Monique Bernoudy, last year (the position was created in 1986, but responsibilities have been added, hand-in-hand with greater authority). She's currently working with our corporate relations representative in the Development Office ... and the two are beginning to lay the foundation for financial aid programs that will hopefully help to draw more minorities. We have done quite a bit with the help of our new director to show that we are definitely interested in minority students. Though I think we're going to need a couple of years to demonstrate to the public that we mean what we say.

The same statement about low percentages of women can be made (only 24% in 1996). Are you working to bring up these numbers as well?

Well, it [low female student enrollment] is certainly doesn't have anything to do with finances -- a factor that has more to do with minorities. I think our "quant jock" image hurts us there [females' perception of the GSB]. We want to communicate that this is not true -- that we're not just a finance school. That perception has taken longer to change, in terms of what our curriculum is about and what our program really is. That has perhaps dissuaded women from coming. The "egghead mentality," is the perception that we offer only finance. The location issue is also a factor. I think female and male prospects have a perception that we are in a dangerous neighborhood. So that to me is probably what has impacted in our marketing of female students.

Let me also re-state that I think financial aid has a huge impact on everybody, but I don't see it as key to affecting women as much as minorities.

When evaluating a candidate, do you feel age is a factor?

No it is not. If an older student, let's say in his or her 40s, is evaluated, their age will not have any bearing whatsoever on the admissions decision. However, we may give them a phone call to provide input on certain career options that are not available to them. For example, they may not be as heavily recruited (recruiters want younger people), and their career opportunities may be somewhat more limited. We only provide this input if they [an older applicant] were accepted.

Okay, let's talk about the actual application and admissions process. First off, could you list what variables are necessary to evaluate a candidate: GMAT, GPA, essays, etc.

We have eight of them. First is the essays. Second is work experience. Thirdly is their level of "professionalism and maturity." Fourthly, we look at letters of recommendation. Fifth, we try to assess what their level of interest in the GSB is. Six, we look at the amount of extracurricular and community service. Seventh, we look at the inteview report. And finally, we look at the academic info, the GMAT, GPA, and transcripts.

Could you weight these variables in order of importance?

We absolutely do not weight these varibables in order of importance. I know that because, I am the final decision-maker. When its all said and done we're looking for people who have a blend of intellectual and interpersonal skills. We do not want to bring in people who are only academically oriented, without any interpersonal and communication skills. But, obviously, we also do not want to admit a person who has a great personality and can't handle the academic rigor. Instead we want both sides of the coin. And that's why all of the predictors weigh evenly.

So you're saying, Chicago, with its rigorous finance program [number 1 in BW's 1996 survey of departments] known for its heavy quant focus does not place a lot of importance on GMAT and GPA scores?

First of all, I would disagree that we have a "heavy-handed" focus on finance. We have a fantastic finance department. But its one of 12 departments that are equally accessed by students. In fact the curriculum is so flexible that you do have to take two quant courses [core requirements], but if you don't want to take one after that, you don't have to. So it's a misconception...

The GPA and GMAT are part of the academic profile which is only part of eight things that we evaluate. Success in life has never been correlated to a 750 GMAT or a 4.0 GPA, and we would be remiss if we put a whole lot of emphasis on just this one aspect of the application packet.

Is there a cutoff score, so to speak, that a candidate must achieve on his or her GMAT in order to warrant a thorough review?

I will tell you this, if an applicant has a 400 GMAT, compared to the application pool, they're going to be at a major disadvantage, but that probably (the low score by itself) would not put them out of contention. It will never put them out of being evaluated for admission. If an applicant sends us everything they've completed, that app will be read three times -- as every app is no matter -- what.

You review an application three times? How does that work?

There are three members. The first person to read it is a student -- who is a member of the Dean's Student Admission Committee [DSAC]. We select several first-years that have applied, and they are fully trained in reading an application. We value their input because they're taking into consideration who they want to have as classmates. Because students repeatedly say that they learn as much from their classmates as they do from the professors.

They fill out what's called a "vote sheet" which has the eight criteria [re: essays, experience, "maturity/professionalism," etc]. For each criterion they fill out a numerical score and then provide written commentary about the score. At the bottom of the vote sheet they do an average of the total. After they're done, the vote sheet is removed from the application and put into a separate file so that it does not bias the next person to review the candidate.

Then the app goes to a member of the admissions commmittee -- without the student's vote sheet in the file. The admissions member then fills out a second vote sheet. Then I look at the candidate's file and make a decision. I take the vote sheets out so that they do not bias me when I initially review the file. After I finish my review, I then take them [the vote sheets] into consideration.

So you read all the applications that are submitted to Chicago's full-time MBA progam?

That's right ... each year. And, its well worth it. It's gratifying to me to tell applicants that if they apply, they will get a full evaluation. We have gotten fantastic applicants who might have been cut off by quotas if we had them in place. But that is not the case.

I understand that Chicago is placing greater importance on the interview. Is that true?

Yes. That's in the last five years, though. This was put in place before I got here. Everything I'm telling you is stuff that has been done at least over the past four years. We haven't really had to exert a lot of effort to reach applicants to interview. I think they realize that it's an important thing to do. We say in the application that we recommend it because it gives us a chance to know the applicant as a person over paper. Secondly, if you know that a school really wants you to attend an interview and you don't, that can tend to tell the school about your general interest. If an applicant has not conducted an interview, and we can't make a decision without it, we will ask them to set one up.

About how many candidates do you think you interviewed this year?

We probably interviewed close to 4,000. We will interview anybody who has sent away for an application

What do you look for?

There's no certain criteria. Obviously we've told our interviewees that this is a conversation, not a interrogation! We want to create an environment where applicants are able to express themselves in a way that an application can't -- in terms of what they've done, or what they want to do. We want our applicants to be themselves, so that they can really enter into a two-way conversation. Applicants aren't just telling us about themselves, but they're also appraising us.

How many essay questions are there in the Chicago application?

Three.

Is there an additional, optional essay question for students to fill-out?

There is an optional question in that the last of the three required questions asks if there is anything that you would like the admissions committee to know that the application hasn't covered.

What mistakes do people commonly make in essays?

The two biggest that come to mind are: they send the wrong essay to us (they'll be tailored to Stanford or Wharton, etc), or they will not check their work for grammatical or typographical errors. And the essay is just not clean -- that speaks more to their ability to handle an application. Another thing is that people do not follow the directions. For example, the first question has a 750 word cap and the latter two have 250 word caps. Many applicants will exceed these specified limitations. Some write 10 pages! When you consider that we look at 3,400 apps x 3 essay questions, that's a lot of reading. So following a school's directions is important. And beyond that, obviously, content and presentation gives us a sense of how people conducts themselves.

How about the recommendations? What type of recs do you think are the best to submit?

My answer is always the same. The best recommendation is completed by someone who knows you well enough to make an honest assessment about your background and future goals and potential for academic work ... I realize that if you're asking somebody like your supervisor to recommend you, that he/she can only comment on your intellectual and interpersonal skills, but not on your academic capabilities. Just make sure that you submit balanced recommendations that give us a well-rounded picture of yourself.

Applicants should not be afraid to submit recommendations that give an honest evaluation about their strengths and weaknesses... we're not looking for God. I am leery of recommendations that are glowing, where a candidate has not done a bad thing in their life. I like to see the honest assessment because no one is beyond reproach.

However, a bad recommendation is a major red flag. 'I've worked with this person, and this is what they did' ... and there is no mention about the character of the person. If there's no reference to the student's personality then the rec is not helpful to me. 'Should I get the president of a company to write a recommendation for me?' -- Well, they mean very little to me as the admissions director. Somebody who talked to you by the water fountain two times over the entire year offers very few insights.

What are the application deadlines for this year's applicants? And, what is the turnaround time for response?

There are three: December 1, 1997; the second is January 16, 1998; and the last one is March 20, 1998. It's about 6-8 weeks turnaround time for each deadline, and so far we've always met our goals. We do print a date within the app packet.

What is your acceptance rate? And the yield?

It's about 25%. The yield is going over 60% -- that is our highest yield in the history of the GSB! This is a phenomenon that I think is unique about the GSB. There are other schools who may have higher yields, but they remain there. We had a 42% yield in the fall of 1993 and we are now at over 60% for sure. Every year there has been an increase. I believe there will be another one next year. And I think that's because the misconceptions applicants have about Chicago are being corrected.

How many applicants are waitlisted on average?

I can't really say because it depends on the year. This year we had a larger list because we were accepting fewer students. But it fluctuates. This year probably 300 - 400 were waitlisted overall. And we had four deadlines this year (for the class of 1999).

Four deadlines? This year, you only have three. What's the deal?

Well, we used to have five. We had them spread out so that we didn't get a flood of apps all at once. But what happened is that they cut into our recruiting efforts. Since our applications have continued to go up, we had to drop to three.

How many are taken (accepted) from the waiting list?

This year, probably at least 20% ... that's an estimate, but it just proves that it is definitely feasible to be admitted from the waitlist, without a doubt.

What do you recommend those poor souls in purgatory [on the waitlist] do to better their chances of acceptance?

First of all, don't assume that you're going to be denied. Assume that there's still a very good chance. When we send someone notification that they've been waitlisted, we send them a sheet that answers commonly-asked questions that usually come up (ex: how long will it be until I hear again?). We make available a telephone number to call the admissions office for feedback about what one might do to add to their application. Certainly those that do that demonstrate that they are showing greater interest. We get back to them within five working days of their call. So my advice is: by all means don't lose heart on the waitlist. These applicants are incredible. Oftentimes I feel I would definitely have admitted most of today's waitlisted folks into the 1993 class.

Do you encourage rejected applicants to re-apply?

We accept applications from those who have been denied, but we certainly would encourage anyone denied admissions to take a very close look at the admissions requirements as well as our student profile. We would definitely encourage someone to take a look at all of that and then welcome them to reapply if they're in the ballpark...or if there is an area in the application that has shown dramatic improvement, then by all means, reapply. However, if you're just going to change your essays, then the exercise is futile.

What about those applicants on the waitlist who were denied?

We would encourage them to reapply and perhaps keep in mind what was mentioned in their waitlist feedback. I would not suggest that anyone reapply more than once.

Do you allow admitted candidates to defer?

We do permit deferrals but only in cases of an emergency situation that was not counted on happening --- such as a sudden change in one's financial situation, a medical emergency, or a loss of a family member. We do not tend to grant deferrals for work-related reasons. And that includes international students being sponsored

About how many people receive deferments?

That is totally based on the year. Some years it's as few as three. Other years it can be 25.

What percentage of students at your school receive financial aid? How much on average?

80% receive financial aid and 20% of them receive sholarship assistance. The range in scholarship is between $5,000 to $10,000 for the first year.

Okay, let's talk about something you brought up earlier. You mentioned that applicants often voice their concerns about the safety at and around the U of C campus in Hyde Park. Has U of C set-up any programs to ensure safety?

Women and international applicants tend to voice the most concerns. But, we haven't had to set up any programs because it [the dangerous environment] is a misconception. Chicago is a metropolitan area and, as with all cities, one should exercise good judgement in safety. Hyde Park is the 6th safest district in Chicago and there are 26 districts. This is just not a campus where there is any kind of warfare or anything like that going on. When students get here they realize that. Hyde Park is a beautiful campus built by John D. Rockefeller in 1892. And it's about a mile away from Lake Michigan. Students were literally giving me their deposit checks after a five hour visit.

Along those lines, do you feel Hyde Park and Chicago is a good environment for families? Is there any programming in place to cater to families?

No doubt about it. The city of Chicago is a family place. I've lived in Chicage for 16 years. There's a down home atmosphere that has a family orientation. Within the university, many of the faculty members live in Hyde Park. They are readily walking around with their loved ones, they host parties. Many of our students come with spouses and in some cases with children. One of our houses [school housing buildings] is called the "International House" and its almost like a family. The opportunity for walking in all of our parks is tremendous, the free concerts and all the sporting events is definitley a bonus.

So I guess I'll have to pop the big question. Are you a Cubbie or a Sox fan?

I can't tell you. I route for whoever is playing. I'm a chicago sports team fan! I will tell you this though, I live three blocks from Wrigley Field ... But, more seriously, my advice is to just come and check us out and see for yourself. Based upon what you've heard, when you visit you're going to be so incredibly surprised.

Okay, let's talk about recruitment a little. Our 1996 b-school survey to recruiters revealed that they thought that Chicago's placement office was among the worst in the nation -- one-in-five stated this ... Has Chicago done anything to rectify the situation?

Actually the steps were started in March of 1996, well before anyone knew there was a problem -- and let me add that about 97% of our students have a job by the time of graduation because it speaks with my answer. What was criticized by recruiters never had anything to do with the faculty, students, or the GSB. A record number of corporate recruiters were here. Their criticism has more to do with the internal process -- about how they were treated when they were here. When the [BW's] survey came out to recruiters, obviously they were going to comment [because the survey came out following the heavy recruitment period].

But what happend is that from March to July of 1996 our directors of Career Services and our deans undertook a restructuring which it was thought would better serve our corporate recruiters. That was implemented in the Fall of 1996 (after the survey had been filled out). The new program for handling corporate recruiting was already in place, so it has had one whole year to be operating. And has been getting good reviews.I'm not saying that we're perfect, but I think weve taken some major steps

Given Chicago's geographic location, do you feel it is at a disadvantage when it comes to Wall Street recruitment. Columbia, for example is right there in New York.

No I definitely don't. I dont think location and quality of program are tied together. We place a big percentage of people in the Northeast and on Wall Street. So I do not think our location has hurt us in any way.

Alright, let's switch gears. Do you feel that Chicago's full-time students and part-time students are of the same quality?

Without a doubt.

Are there any difference between the admissions standards for full and part-time applicants?

No sir. None whatsoever. The process is almost identical, but there's a different committee evaluating the part-timers because of the number of total applicants. I do know that in terms of reading apps, that they are doing just as much as we are. The only difference is that interviews are absolutely required for weekend and part-time applicants. The programs themselves are also identical, the same faculty teach for both. We do have a little older student make-up in the part-time program: an average age of 29 years old vs 27 for the full-time.

Do you feel recruiters view full-timers and part-timers in the same regard?

Well, we really don't have a recruitment program for part-timers because they're almost always employed. There are opportunities, but by and large they're [part-timers]doing the program because they're employed and they want to broaden their skills.

Let's scale it back. Fill in the blank: you should come to Chicago if you're most interested in what?

If you're looking for a flexible curriculum which gives you freeedom of choice. If you are looking for the best combination of faculty and students you'll ever find in your life. Our flexible curriculum is second to none. All of our concentrations of equal value. GSB offers a choice of twelve outstanding concentrations in finance, marketing, international business, entrepreneurial studies ... But above all, Chicago gives students the solid fundamentals for successful business practice. And we really believe in that.

What about the flipside? Fill in the blank: you should stay away from Chicago if you're most interested in what?

I think you shouldn't come to Chicago if after looking at our material, it doesn't appeal to you. If you've done your homework and you decide for some reason that this is not a match or what you're looking for, then you shouldn't come. But I honestly do not know who would not come here because of our academic program. Maybe a spouse wants to live in another part of the country. Or if you want more of a case-study approach, then you shouldn't come to Chicago.

What do you feel needs improvement?

The academic program I really think is in a constant state of evaluation. Faculty members review the curriculum all the time and add to or change it constantly. So, the curriculum is evolving automatically all the time. We have sought to address the issue of overcrowding on campus and in career services. To take care of the overcrowding, we changed the open door policy for students who wanted to transfer from the part-time to the full-time program. It was a good policy, but we had 120 students transfer into the full-time program in 1996, and that's just too much. So now, it's not an automatic assumption anymore [that part-timers can transfer into the full-time program]. Less than half of the part-timers who put in the paperwork this year actually transferred. Just to clarify, the part-timers take classes at the Gleacher Center in downtown Chicago, not at the Hyde Park campus.

Who are Chicago's toughest competitors? In other words, with which schools do you most often compete for students?

Other schools that students apply to would be Harvard, Stanford, and Wharton.

I'm surprised that you make no mention of Kellogg in there.

Again this is based on perceptions. We are supposedly the finance school and Kellogg is the marketing school. So based on these perception, the schools tend to draw different students. So the overlap has not been as great as people may think.

Well, we are virtually out of time. Would you like to add anything else before we end?

I want to be sure that I clarify one thing with you. It has not been my intention to undermine our finance programs here but I have tried to expose our other top concentrations. My desire is not to minimize the accomplishment and prestige of the finance faculty and curriculum. The department is absolutely phenomenal, its just that there's so much more.

Can you download an application from your internet site, or does an applicant have the opportunity to submit his or her application via the internet/diskette?

Yes, they have the option to electronically apply as well as download an app from our site. It will be ready next week (8/11). An Acrobat Reader would be nice if you have that.

Well, thanks for your time Don.