First off Richard, I know that Yale SOM differs from the traditional business education experience. The degree awarded, for example, the MPPM (Master's Degree of Public and Private Management), is not a traditional MBA degree. Can you explain how the two differ? (Editor's note: Since this interview took place, the faculty of the Yale School of Management voted to change the name of the degree it now offers from an MPPM to an MBA. The school's curriculum, as described in this interview, remains unchanged, however.)

Well, first let me emphasize that there are so many important ways in which we are not different from the traditional MBA programs. We tend to talk a lot about how we're different. First of all, the basis of this curriculum is about as rigorous a traditional MBA curriculum as you're going to find anywhere. The core -- finance, marketing, quantitative methods in economics, and strategy -- is the foundation of the school. This is a business school in no uncertain terms with a great MBA core.

What makes us an innovative program and what Yale did when this school was founded was push the envelope a little bit. We felt that the traditional MBA did not cover enough ground. Specifically, we felt MBAs were not introduced to the operations of government and how public policy relates to business issues. So Yale offers a more general program by introducing these issues in the context of a rigorous MBA curriculum. We use cases from all over. And we call our experience an "MBA plus" to emphasize the fact that we are an MBA with added dimensions, with public and private innovations. As John Thornton (Chairman of Goldman Sachs Asia, and graduate of Yale SOM's class of 1980) said, nobody in investment banking or on Wall Street can function without understanding government and international finance. We feel that the MBA needs to open its doors to trade and public policy management. We feel that Yale SOM is expanding the playing field by doing just that.

Does the MPPM specifically market itself to the nonprofit and government sectors?

Not at all. Ninety percent of our students have gone into the private sector. We have far more people working at Goldman Sachs, along with other traditional MBA occupations. We do have more people in public and nonprofit as a percentage than any other b-school, but that's still only 10% of our student body. Having 10% to 15% of our student body in nonprofit makes us rather special, but it is still a very small minority of the total. The MPPM degree name may not imply that participants are interested in business, so I guess it's a point that needs to be made very clearly.

When I say that we were innovative in creating a new kind of program, I think the innovation needs to be understood on a couple of fronts. First, the world is changing rapidly at this point in time. But also, the careers of MBA students have changed. The stereotypes of 20 to 30 years ago were that you graduated from school, worked at a company for 20 to 30 years, and retired with a gold watch. What you have now are MBA grads going into business, switching industries, switching functions, and then maybe moving back into the private sector in entrepreneurship. That's a common path of MBAs these days. And I think that our school addresses the needs of our students in a more comprehensive way.

Well, how many students were able to take advantage of that --- how big is this year's class?

We have 214 students in this year's class and we admitted 416, to be exact.

What was the yield?

51%. Keep in mind that we have a rather liberal deferral policy and a number of those 416 people have deferred until next year or thereafter, so the ultimate yield will be higher.

Have Yale's applications been steadily rising over the past couple of years? In other words, did this year's app total surpass last year's?

Well, this year's application total was 1,620, and it went down a little bit from last year. We're up over the last four years by about 43% in apps since the class of 1995, though. So we peaked a little bit last year. We think that we had a little bit of an artificial bubble in the aftermath of Dean Garten's appointment [Jeffrey Garten, a former investment banker who served in President Clinton's first administration, was appointed dean of the the school in late 1995]. We also think in terms of quality, not just quantity. For instance, over the last five years, our average GMAT score has gone from an average of 642 to 679, and that's been steady. That's an indicator of quality.

What we're seeing this year is a tremendous increase in interest. I would say that this year's app pool will be the highest in the school's history. We're up about 19% in requests for applications overall at this point in time compared to a year ago. If you break that down, we're actually up over 20% among domestic citizens, and up about 15% for international requests. We measure how many requests we receive for applications through something we call the "EMPT" measurement, which stands for Email, Mail, Personal [when the applicant physically comes to the school or attends one of the school's presentations to request materials], and Telephone. So we collect data on the number of people who request information through those four mediums. And we've had almost 10 times as many requests made in the "P" category this year over this same time last year. So it's starting to feel a little bit like a rock concert around here.

Do you feel this rise in interest is a result of increased recruiting?

I think "all of the above." I don't have a scientific answer for you. I can only give you my anecdotal observations. Right now, we're right in the middle of recruiting. I'm going to Lehman Brothers for a presentation, I've been to one MBA Forum in Miami, and we've talked to many visitors. There's a great deal of excitement in connection with the school. I think Dean Garten has made a big splash and that has helped with the name recognition. I think that we've achieved a critical mass of top flight alumni at prestigious firms. So the school is no longer a young school. I believe that the message that the school delivers is really a winning formula for management education in the 21st century. We're seeing more and more people tell us that this makes sense.

I have heard the phrases Summer Saturday, Spring Saturday -- What are they?

They are events that have become a little tradition here. We started off about six years ago. The idea was to invite all of the admitted applicants to the school for an entire day of immersion into the school. The first one was on April, and the day includes a faculty panel talking to students about their teaching and background, then we have a panel talking about all the different support functions, then there are student panels and extracurricular groups presenting their role. The whole thing is quite festive. The alumni panel talks to admitted applicants about their own experiences with the school and the real world. We decided to add a second event called Summer Saturday in June becuase of the event's popularity. Again, these events are strictly for admitted applicants. And our yield on offers of admissions who come to Spring Saturday is more than 80%. To know us is to love us.

Can you give me Yale SOM's Class of '99's profile (i.e. minority, non-US, female)?

Women comprise 31% of our Class of '99, up from 26% in 1998. That's partly due to the fact that we were able to recruit a significant number of women in the foreign setting. Almost 20% of our international students are women right now. We went from an international population that was almost entirely men, and now at this point, 20% are women, and that represents a big change. So the foreign-domestic balance does not have as much impact on gender as it had. Our foreign enrollment weighs in at 30% and that includes students from 32 countries. The minority percentage is the highest in our history 23% [and this counts Asian-Americans]. We're running about 6% African-American and Hispanic combined, and that puts Asian-American representation a 17%.

What are this year's application deadlines? And the turnaround for response? If I recall correctly, Yale SOM has four rounds.

Actually, we only have three this year because we were just too jammed up in our second and third rounds during last year. And also our four rounds were linked to the GMAT schedule; the implementation of the computer adapted test (CAT) does away with that schedule. So, since the GMAT changed, we changed.

The first deadline in on November 10, the second is January 5, and the final deadline is scheduled for March 16, 1998.

For the November deadline, responses will be mailed on January 15, then it's March 26, and May 21. We have never missed a deadline and we never will. We want the opportunity to look at the entire round. So for round one, November 10 is the deadline, and then we have a full two months to work on them [the applications]. We evaluate them one at a time, and then we go back and look at the group as a whole so that we can be as fair as possible. The second round is longer, because its a much bigger round.

To the best of your knowledge, could you break down how many seats or spots generally get filled per deadline?

We don't have a quota. What we do is we keep our eyes on the tree and the forest at the same time. We evaluate the applicant in the context of the pool as a whole, and we're also doing a lot of projecting. For example, the first round only has so many applicants, but we have an idea of what's coming. The goal is to admit the best people and do it in a way that is as fair as possible. We're interested in a male/female breakdown, a diversity of backgrounds. When people think about diversity they tend to think of enthnicity or gender, but we want to have a wide diversity of career backgrounds: legal, healthcare, investment bankers, engineers -- all sorts of people. We're looking at the demography in professional and academic characteristics as well.

What connotes a completed application? What are the different variables that are assessed?

The application form itself, a thing called a data processing form (which includes personal information about the individual), there are three recommendations that are required -- the source is up to the applicants, typically we get academics and professionals -- transcripts, four essays -- three required and one optional to add whatever they want -- the TOEFL [Test of English as a Foreign Language] if applicable -- our average was 642 which is up almost 11 points since the previous year -- the GMAT, and the interview -- which is not required, but we try to offer them as much as we can, and we have a rapidly expanding interview program that has been building for the last couple of years.

Is there a pre-application process at Yale SOM?

No there isn't.

When assessing the GMAT, do you look at it holistically or in parts (AWA [Analytical Writing Assessment], verbal, quantitative)?

For the most part, we evaluate the GMAT in parts separately. We look at the total score, but in general it's more informative to look at the parts. For example, international applicants may have a lower verbal section because they aren't native speakers -- so that would be misleading. And also you look at the scores to help you answer the specific questions. For example, if someone has a weaker math background you'd be interested in seeing the quant section to see how they measure up. Remember, you're trying to answer questions when you look at any segment of the application. You're trying to determine how well prepared they are to excell and succeed in your school. So when you look at test scores you're trying to get a handle on it.

Does an applicant's taking the GMAT several times impact negatively against him or her in your eyes?

No, not a bit.

How much of a factor is the applicant's undergraduate school? Does it play a significant role during your review?

The rigor of the program is a very big factor. I think there is probably a hasty generalization that somebody who went to an Ivy League school is a better student than a "statie." Programs differ tremendously in their degree of rigor and we certainly pay attention to that.

Now you mentioned that Yale SOM has been working hard to bolster its interview program. Could you tell me a bit more about what the school is doing on that front?

The interview program is part of the Admissions Ambassador Program, where about 750 alumni volunteer to do many things for us. The Ambassador Program includes people who hold receptions in their hometowns. Recently in Atlanta, one of our alumni attended a minority conference for prospectives [applicants]. Our alumni attend events like that all over the world. A lot of our alumni serve as resources. They put themselves on a phone list. They are a kind of global resource for our applicants.

Within the AAP (Admissions Ambassador Program) we have a subset of ambassadors who are our interviewers. The program has been modeled after the Yale College undergrad program, where the school has a chairperson in each of the important cities. And then interviewers interview for us in their particular towns. And this has been expanding. We're working toward interviewing everybody. Right now we're at the point of interviewing 100% of our admitted applicants where the Admissions Ambassador Program has been established. So, in places like Chicago, San Francisco, Washington D.C., Boston, LA, and Paris, where the program is fully functional, we interview 100% of the strongest applicants. There are another four AP cities being added -- New York, Tokyo, and London will be incorporated next year, and Atlanta will be tacked on down the road.

Let me emphasize, however, that we interview extensively in other places, not just the AAP cities. We interview everywhere, but in those cities we interview 100%. We're also interviewing in places like Tokyo and Shanghai, and our professional admissions staff interviews in the MBA forum cities -- 16 cities this year. So, for example, we're going to Boston (one of the Forum sites) two days earlier in order to interview. And then in addition, we also have a trained second-year "admissions support comittee" who interview at the Yale campus. We interviewed just under 800 people out of 1,620 from last year ... that's an estimate.

How does the interview fit into your overall evaluation of an applicant?

The short answer is it fine tunes .. it clarifies. An interview cannot make a good applicant into bad one and vice-versa. It helps us clarify information that is not clear in the file. It helps us understand the personal side. You have to understand what, after all, a good admissions office is looking for when evaluating an application. What we're not doing is admitting people along a single dimension. A lot of people think that we just admit people with the highest numbers. Well, that's preposterous. If they (applicants) think about it then they probably realize that we're looking at two dimensions -- both on the academic side as well as the professional side.

But, truth be told, we look at three dimensions when evaluating a candidate. The academic, professional, and personal dimensions are all important. The interview is especially valuable for the third part. It helps us understand the person. We have to ask ourselves what it is that we are doing in this school, we're educating leaders. The interview is integral in assessing leadership capability. The recommendations also help us understand the impact an individual has had on other people. This is something that is impossible to see using just numbers. They give us the subjective end of the evaluation.

First, we're not going to admit anybody who's not strongly qualified on the objective side of the application. So, we want to make sure that the applicant is well qualified academically and professionaly. Once we've made that determination, we have identified the upper end of our app pool. Then we look at the subjective aspects. So we make two cuts: The objective qualification, and then the subjective qualification. So the final decision often turns on the subjective end of the app.

What should applicants do to prepare themselves for the interview?

Well, saying that they're informal would be making it sound too informal, but they are relaxed. We like to think of the interview as having two dimensions: We learn and they learn. And, in that spirit, the best thing an applicant can do is to inform themselves about the school so that they're not coming in cold. For example, this school is linked to our parent university probably more fully than just about any other b-school, meaning that we have collaborative courses all over this campus. So when I tell interviewees to inform themselves, part of that is learning about all that's available university-wide as well as at Yale SOM.

What do you ask, generally?

There's no fixed set of questions. Where's a person coming from and where are they going? Why are they interested in b-school and why Yale? So you ask questions that are going to illuminate those areas.

What do you look for in the essays?

The three have changed a bit; we try and tweak them from year-to-year. This year they're very similar to last year. The first essay questions is what we call the "background essay," and it's about the applicants' educational and professional background to date. We also ask them to relate their background to their career objectives in the future. Is there a coherent story there?

The second essay question is what we call the "learning goals essay." We ask the applicant to tell us what they want to learn in b-school. What is it that they want to know? Can they link that to their career game plan?

The third essay question is distinctively Yale SOM. We ask the applicants to tell us the effect or impact that they have made in the organizations with which they've been affiliated. What type of things have they done? Our applicants tell us that it's a very challenging essay, and it really tells us the type of person they are.

The fourth essay is optional, and allows the applicants to include anything about themselves that they feel was not adequately described.

What's the ideal amount of work experience you're looking for? Range? [In 1996, it was 5 to 12 years].

It's going up a bit. Our average was 4.5 years, but we have a pretty big range. The low end might be two years. Occasionally there are going to be outliers along any dimension. We have had young and old. Typically, we're looking for at least two years. Most of our students are between 24 and 31 years old.

Do you accept people into your program without any work experience?

On very rare occasions. There have been a few cases where several individuals were very involved in a number of activities and organizations who seemed more than prepared to do what they needed to do. For example, one of our students was the in-chief of the Columbia University newspaper. He had amassed a number of skills managing the university's paper and was very involved in other things. So we felt that he was ready to meet the challenges of business school despite having no "professional" experience to speak of. If, however, you mean accepting people with literally no work experience, then the answer is unequivocally no.

You mentioned earlier that Yale SOM has a fairly liberal deferral policy.

We do defer people. Usually they are very young applicants who seem to us to be really outstanding but, in our judgment need further experience. In these cases they are admitted on a one-to-two year deferment basis. The rest of the university is much less related to the outside world. Yale SOM, however, has relationships all over the world. So when we're doing admissions .. when we're looking at experience, we're looking in the context of a program that's not an ivory tower academic program.

How many applicants are waitlisted?

I don't recall, but we usually waitlist approximately 150 at end of the year.

Do you utilize the waitlist? Or is it more of a ceremonial honorable mention type thing?

We normally do. We've admitted as few as zero people of the waitlist, and another year it was five, and we've gone as high as 30. So it varies. Normally we'll take around 15 to 18 people out of 150.

Do you encourage rejected applicants to re-apply? Or provide feedback to everyone who requests it?

We do try to provide feedback if people want it. We don't initiate that ourselves. Rejected applicants will get feedback during the course of the summer if they request it.

What's this year's tuition (in 1996, it was $23,130)?

$24,200

And what would you estimate the annual cost of living to be in New Haven, Connecticut (in 1996, it was $8,180)?

It varies from student-to-student. I'd say the total budget runs a little under $40,000 a year. Here's a breakdown for first-year students: hospitalization/student health care costs $845; a social activity fee is $105; case and copy supplies/books runs $940; room and board goes for $8,425; personal expenses I would estimate to be about $2,690; and then for first-years who don't have a laptop, there's a computer fee of $3,500. So, if you take all of that, the total works out to $40,705. That's the estimated budget that financial aid uses when assessing how much assistance a candidate is eligible for. For second years, the budget would be less because they don't have to buy the computer.

So then, I surmise that laptop computers are now required at Yale SOM. Does the school prefer its students to buy any particular laptop model or brand?

We've required laptops for the past two years. Yale uses a Windows environment and many of our students have IBM laptops. Others have Digital, Toshiba .. but it has to be a Windows environment with all of the associated software that we need for various applications. For example, the program uses Microsoft Exchange e-mail -- that requires a Windows platform. But, we have bundles with various software packages that the students can acquire through the computing center.

Can you give applicants any advice on the best ways of securing scholarships? What's out there?

Well, there are many different ways to go. We have a great financial aid program. In fact, 65% of our student body is receiving some form of financial aid, which includes government loans, subsidized and non-subsidized loans, and significant scholarship (help) from Yale. At the Yale School of Management, we admit students in a need-blind fashion, where we pay no attention to one's financial circumstances. Once admitted, we award scholarships in a need-based fashion. We establish applicants' need and try and make it possible for them to come to the school. Sometimes there are work opportunities. And there are many outside scholarship sources as well.

Yale SOM has a unique focus and angle on business education that you have articulated over the course of our conversation. What kind of an applicant would you like to steer away from the program?

I think that, to go back to our general goal here, you have to ask: What are we doing? Well, we're educating leaders for business and society. I think that a student that wants that knowhow would have a hard time finding a better program. Anyone aspiring to a level of general management needs this type of education.

A person who is very narrowly focused in a back office, functional area might be less happy here. You can do almost anything here. You can expand and tailor the program for your own needs. Our curriculum can handle anything -- hard edge business skills that you could possibly get at your Whartons, Columbias, and Harvards. What we have, then, is the opportunity to customize the program for yourself: Finance, operations, consulting/strategic planning, nonprofit management ... in the second year, using our own electives and other opportunities available at other facets of the school, you can do pretty much anything. I don't think that we have any conspicuously weak areas.

Who are your toughest competitors?

The overlap numbers are pretty consistent from year to year: Harvard, Stanford, and Wharton. We also overlap with other top MBA programs, but those three schools predominate.

Richard would you like to add anything else before we wrap up?

I think probably what I would say first is that the applicant pool has gotten more international. That's a huge change in terms of how we operate. We feel that we're working in a miniature United Nations around here. I also think the applicant pool has gotten more sophisticated. When I first got here, my impression was that people were applying to random b-schools. Now we've got educated consumers -- people who discern the differences between the schools, and they know what they want. We've also seen a trend of increasingly strong academic backgrounds. The rigor of the program has gotten greater over the last few years and I think the applicant pool reflects that. Almost 30% are coming from science and engineering backgrounds. That means that business and sci tech are starting to merge and that students are understanding that. We also have very few students who are undergraduate business majors. So, our students have a wide variety of backgrounds.

We're also seeing a change in terms of demography within the United States. For a long time at Yale our students came predominately from the New England region. Over the last two years, California has been number one. So we've got students here from literally the entire country.

My last point is that students here care deeply about more than making a buck. Yale SOM students are interested in the quality of their careers, not just the quantity of their paychecks.

Does the school have any distance learning programs?

Correspondence or distance learning courses are not offered at Yale SOM, and I don't think we're planning that. As part of our degree program, we're not thinking about doing that in the near future. We're focusing our attention on what we provide here.

Richard, thanks for speaking with me today.