Sally, first off, I know from your background that you have spent quite a number of years working in the undergraduate admissions office at various colleges. Do you feel that the undergrad application process differs tremendously from MBA admissions? In other words, is it more competitive in the MBA arena? Is the decision-making process a bit more refined?

It certainly is more refined. It is not a different process overall, though. It's (the MBA application process) not significantly different from the undergrad process. I think that we're looking at a great multitude of factors and everyone is extremely different. That's not to say that all high school students are the same. But when you're looking at high school students, the academic profile is more similar, there aren't as many variables. There's the SAT, he or she is president of their class, etc. And here [at Tuck], everyone is different .. every experience is different.

For me, it is an extremely enjoyable change. I've learned an awful lot of what people are capable of doing. And I think what's been most interesting is going back to the undergraduate experience and looking at the hopes, dreams and goals (that college applicants have), and seeing some of them realized in older adults who are applying to business school. Then I see a whole new set of dreams and goals come to light (from b-school applicants).

Have you seen any individuals that you evaluated for undergrad also pop up in front of you when assessing b-school applications?

Yes, I have seen people apply to Dartmouth College and other schools that I've worked at later apply to Tuck. We probably have more applications from Dartmouth grads than we do at any other colleges. This year we had 53 applicants, or 1.6% of the pool of 3,194.

Okay. So at 3,194 applications, Tuck is continuting its upward trend in applications. In 1993 it was 2,078. Last year, Tuck received 2,923 apps. Of this year's 3,194 applications, how many candidates did you admit? What was the yield? And how many spots were available?

We admitted 367 people and our yield was about 50%. And our class of 1999 ended up at 184 students.

So you're staying fairly consistent with past history. For example, last year Tuck admitted 377 people and ended up with a class of 199.

Yes. And the class size hasn't changed much. Last year's class of 199 was unusually large. Usually we're shooting for 180 - 185 students. The smaller we are, the harder it is to reach that exact number. It's tough because we are competing against Harvard, Wharton, Stanford, and Kellogg, who are significantly different schools than we are, especially in size, in teaching style .. So you look at the person and really try to guage their interest in Tuck. Typically we've had a yield of 48% to 53%

And that's all for full timers, right? Part-time aspirants need not apply?

Yes.

To what do you attribute Tuck's sharp, consistent rise in applications?

I think a lot of it is industry based. Right now things are going extremely well. And there are lots of employment opportunities for people coming out of school as well. It's very economy-based.

And what type of applicant is applying to Tuck? What does a Tuckie wannabe tend to gravitate toward?

They gravitate toward banking and consulting.

I recently spoke with Robert Williams, the director of admissions at Duke's Fuqua School of Business, and former associate admissions director at Tuck, who said that Tuck needs to try a little harder to cater to diversity. In other words, he was intimating that minorities and international students need to be more actively recruited at the school. Last year, for example, a paltry 16% of Tuck's class was comprised of non-U.S. students, second lowest in our top 25 grouping. He went on to say that you are doing an incredible job improving that situation. First, can you tell me about this year's international student contingent? And then can you describe what types of efforts you and your staff have undertaken to bring in more international students?

First, I'm proud to say that this year Tuck has a 23% international enrollment. And we're very happy about that. In order to improve upon that situation, we're (Tuck's admissions office) working closely with the International Student Association and I met with them regularly last year to talk about some of the things that we can do to promote Tuck. I think that it's really important to get feedback from what they (international students) hear from their peers and from companies that they're talking with internationally when they're home for the holidays. They're (enrolled international students) also working closely with alumni affairs. So, we don't want to just bring in international students, but to promote employment abroad and have more representatives talking about Tuck.

We are increasing the amount of international travel that we do as well. And we're planning a trip to South America for the first time. I'm going with Bob Alig (director of admissions at Wharton) and Don Martin (director of admissions at Chicago Graduate School of Business) and we're pooling efforts to recruit students. We're going to three cities in one week: Santiago (Chile), Buenos Aires (Argentina), and Sao Paulo (Brazil). We feel that we each have something different to offer. But we also feel it's important that people see that b-schools cooperate because this is something that we do inside our circles. And we all believe in that philosophy.

On top of the South America trip, I will be going to Europe again. We did MBA forums in Asia and Europe in May and June, and we'll be going again in January. Then I will go to Japan once if not twice this year.

What has the reception been like to your recruiting efforts?

It's been terrific, especially within Latin America. I think Tuck is an undisclosed secret; it's really a little gem out there. People don't know a lot about us, and once they do, they aspire toward us as an alternative.

I was talking to a student from India who chose Tuck because it was not in a city, and it has a smaller number of Indian students here than in some of the schools in major metropolitan areas. Well, he wanted the experience of interacting with a wide diversity of people. And his belief was that Tuck will give him that experience.

How about minorities? Are there any workshops or recruitment programs that Tuck has that cater to the minority applicant. And when I say minority, I am excluding Asian Americans.

I think Robert was right in saying that we need to increase our efforts always. It's something that's constantly in the forefront of our efforts. Our highest number (of minority matriculants) was the 17% -18% that entered in '96 (the class of '98). And this year we're at 15%.

Why have the numbers been fairly low for such an extended period of time?

I think part of it is that we need to get out there and we haven't expended all of our energies. We're a small staff of three. But this is a priority for us this year. We are going to a number of Destination MBAs (workshops designed to inform minority prospective applicants about the scope of b-schools available). And we're working with current minority students as well to get their feedback.

We have a group of minority alums who are very concerned and also very interested in assisting with our efforts. They've offered to recruit. But their major participation is channeled into a mentoring program and we assign all minority students to minority alumni. The contact is made during the summer. And it's just somebody who's there to lend an ear and provide professional and personal contact. It can be as little as 'hello how are you' and as much as visting with the person several times througout the year.

In addition to that, all of our incoming students have a second-year student who is their mentor (for all first-year students).

Do you think the perception of Hanover has hurt Tuck's minority enrollment?

Perhaps perception, but that's taking the easy way out. I think that it is a perception and it's our job to dispel that myth. And it's our students' job as well. This is a collaborative effort between our students, admissions staff, and alumni. I mean, I truly believe that this is the right type of place for the right type of person regardless of ethnicity. We don't get defensive, the numbers aren't what we'd like them to be. We know that we need to get out there and let people know a little bit more about Tuck and all its various aspects.

What are this year's application deadlines and their turnaround for response?

We have four rounds. The first deadline is Dec. 5, with a notification date of Jan. 16. The second is Jan. 20 and the notification is Feb. 23. The third deadline is Feb. 24 with a Mar. 30 notification. And our final deadline is April 22 with a notification on May 18.

And does Tuck typically stick to this 4 to 5 week turnaround time?

Last year was my first year as director, and before each round I said, 'so what if the letters don't go out on time?' But I was determined to get them there. And that meant spending Saturdays and weekends into the night .. and the letters have always gone out on time.

Do you have an idea of how many seats or spots generally get filled per deadline?

We're usually looking for around 150 - 175 in the first round and then in the second round around 100, perhaps 100 - 125. And then, obviously, the number begins to decrease a little bit. By round three it's somewhere around 50. And then in round four, it's what is left. And that's not the "leftovers." We always make an attempt to save room for those people who have arrived at the decision to apply later than most. That's why we have four rounds. We certainly want to be able to accommodate those people.

Given the higher admission rate in the earlier rounds, do you suggest that people apply early?

We have found, over the years that the yield is higher in the early rounds. And the quality is stronger in the early rounds.

What are the different variables that are assessed to deem an application complete?

They have to have the application -- which consists of bio info and work history plus all of their extracurricular activites. They have to have their transcripts of every college level-- university undergrad and grad work--that they've ever taken. And they need the GMAT. They need two recommendations, and three essays that we require -- we also have an optional fourth.

Do you evaluate every application file according to a certain order or progression?

There's an order to how we read the application. We read the application first -- the bio, extracurriculars, and the work history, etc. Then we go on to the essays. And then we read the recommendations. And then the academic history -- the transcripts. And then, if the individual has had an interview, we'll read the report. And last, we look at the GMAT.

What's the reasoning behind this order? Obviously, for instance, there's a reason you look at the GMAT last.

We don't want to have any preconceived notions about the person before we read the file. If you open up the application and immediately see a GMAT of 460 or 500, your mind immediately begins to work. One might have a tendency to give an application less time than (for an application containing) a 720. We really don't want to do that and this just eliminates that possiblity.

Is there a pre-application process at Tuck where prospective candidates may contact the admissions office for a quick evaluative conversation?

We have inquiry receptions at cities across the country and internationally. We want to highlight our alumni, so we always have an alumni panel. It's very informal. We gather five or six alums, mostly recent grads. I or one of the staff give an overall summary of the school, then we turn it over to the alums, and they are most definitely our best recruiters. We always think it's helpful for people to hear from recent alums (who have been out of school for no more than 5 years).

We interview anyone and it can be before or after they apply. We have a deadline within the round as to how late into the round they can interview. But students can come here and interview before they apply and it can be evaluative and we have a report on it.

So if an applicant chooses to interview before applying, it isn't really an off-the-record sit down, but rather the real deal.

We don't have any sort of informal interview.

What tends to set admitted students apart from those who have excellent credentials but don't get an offer?

I guess for me it's a couple of things. It's the focus that the applicant has on the MBA. It's the applicant who can articulate clearly why they want to go through this and what they plan to do with this. And it's not saying this is what I want to do when I grow up -- it's not 'I want to work here and make this much money' -- but more of having an idea in your mind. When I read an essay, I want to be able to say 'wow, this person's going to be here and roar through this problem, and when they graduate they're going to be successful afterward.' That sets them apart. I also think that the people that have done their research about Tuck tend to separate themselves apart from the crowd.

How much weight does the GMAT carry for an application? Has the bar been raised this year?

No, not for the enrolling students. It's almost an identical profile. It hasn't changed. And for the admitted students as well, it really hasn't changed. This year's range is 520 - 790 (last year's range was 520 - 780, with an average of 669).

When evaluating an application, we're looking at three distinct parts: academic, professional, and 'PQs', short for what we call personal qualities. And we look at the individual in those three areas.

Do you weight each of these three application parts equally at 33% or is it a bit skewed?

I think that they can be skewed if an applicant is weak in one area and has strengths in other areas. It's important for each individual to highlight their strengths. Not everybody is going to come in here with a 3.5 GPA and a 780 GMAT. And that's fine.

How can applicants offset their weaknesses?

A stronger GMAT, of course, can offset a low GPA. But certainly, extracurriculars, a professional career that has risen meteorically, lots of responsibilities that have been handled. And their recommendations back that up and tell us what we're missing if we don't know this person well enough. Everyone reaches a level of excellence at a different point (in their lives) and in their own way and they reach it in different ways. And we have to take that into consideration.

Last year Tuck interviewed 80% of its appicants.

That figure is for those that were accepted. This year it's pretty much the same.

How does the interview fit into your overall evaluation of applicants?

We encourage people to interview and give them numerous opportunities to do so. They can come here and interview on campus, or they can do a 'city interview,' which is meeting with an admissions officer in LA, Tokyo, Chicago, and many other locales, in a hotel room. City interviews, we've kind of scaled down over the past three years. Of the 300 interviews that I did last year, I'd say that probably 175 -- more than half -- were city interviews.

What should applicants do to prepare themselves for the interview?

They need to do some research on the school. Any school that they're interviewing with .. everyone has general questions about MBA programs, but we want to hear specifics about what we have. It is important that they come prepared to asks questions, and they come prepared to answer them as well.

What do you generally ask when you are conducting the interview?

It is informal. I want to get a sense of who this person is .. why they've made the choices that they've made in their career, whether it's academic or professional. I want to know what their thoughts are of an MBA program -- certainly about the Tuck program specifcally. What we all try to gauge is fit.

Right. Many schools are concerned about accepting candidates who will fit into the mold and philosophy of their program. What type of "fit" is there at Tuck?

Because we are a small school and our students live side-by-side with one another for two years, we want to make sure that prospective applicants are aware of what Tuck is all about. We know that this is not going to be the right place for everyone. So we want to make sure that people are aware of the uniqueness of the school. The size and the location certainly separate us from a lot of other schools. But I think it's the very, very small sense of community that Tuck has. There is a closeness of the alumni. There is a camaraderie that develops right at the very beginning and carries through beyond. I see it over and over again when I meet with groups of alumni.

What type of a person would not fit into Tuck?

I think a person who wants an anonymous experience. Someone who wants to go to school, get the degree, and then leave. Obviously somebody who likes to live in the city is not going to be a happy person at the Tuck school. I think most b-schools are different places for people who aren't really sure why they are doing this.

If a candidate walks into an interview informally dressed, does that negatively reflect on their poise and professionalism?

Yes, unless they have a reason for it. We've had students come with an explanation that their luggage was lost. Sometimes the luggage doesn't make it. I think this is a professional school. This is a business school. People would not go to a job interview informally dressed like that. We certainly put our best foot forward and we hope that they would do the same. We work on not passing judgment based on the way that they are dressed, though.

Do you ever ask the applicant whether Tuck is their first choice? Or where else they have applied?

No. I sometimes may ask an individual what other schools they are "considering" because it puts Tuck in a group of schools. And what I like to see is: Does this group of schools make sense (or does Dartmouth belong in this candidate's school list)? It also stokes conversation because it gives a sense of the person's areas of interest.

How many essays are there in the Tuck appliation this year?

Three essays.

Has that changed since last year?

It was four last year.

What do they ask?

The first question is the generic question that we all ask: Why do you want an MBA? Tell us about your career progression to date, etc. Our second question is usually Tuck-specific, just to get a sense of who this person is personally and professionally. The third question is a generic one that asks the applicant to tell us about their hobbies and interests.

And the optional? What does it incorporate?

It's very open-ended and gives individuals the opportunity to tell us something about themselves that hasn't already been revealed.

Is there a word limit for the essays?

We have a recommendation. We say 500 to 1,000 words for all the essays. Which is again just a recommendation. We have received 10 to 12 pages per essay .. which is excessive. Sometimes people ramble a bit and recount their entire professional career and this is a mistake because it's not concise. What it indicates sometimes is a lack of focus. And that's a red flag.

How many recommendations do you require?

Two.

Is that a ceiling? Or can an applicant send in more if he or she so desires?

Yes. I usually tell people that it's not necessary to send more than four.

How do you like to have the recommendations broken up: supervisor - colleague, or CEO - professor, etc?

We really like to see two professional recommendations if people can get them from supervisors. We recognize the fact that not everyone can do that. They sometimes cannot reveal their MBA search to their supervisor or may work in their family business. We hesitate to ask for peer recommendations because no one is going to get a recommendation from someone who doesn't like him. We're trying to assess how an individual works in a team, how they work under a supervisor, how they work as a supervisor. And typically the supervisor is the best person to assess these qualities. I think the most important aspect of the recommendation is that it's coming from someone who knows this person well. The CEO of the company looks great on letterhead, but if they don't know the applicant well, it's just not going to help us.

Is it inappropriate for a candidate to get a recommendation from a professor? Or should they generally be from professionals?

No it's not inappropriate, especially someone who has just completed graduate work or recently graduated from college and might have a great relationship. However, if there is no solid relationship, then it's what we call a "coffee-break rec": When anybody who does not know the individual very well fills out the forms rather cavalierly.

Are "coffee-break recs" a strike then?

It's not a strike. It doesn't hurt the individual because it may not necessarily be their fault, but it doesn't help them

What if the recommendation is glowing, with the recommender gushing about the applicant. Does this make you leery?

If both recs are like that, well .. I want to believe everything everybody tells me about everyone. But on the other hand you might be a little leery about this incredible praise about an individual, because we all have our little foibles, and it's okay to have them. You want to give the benefit of the doubt to the applicant and say 'wow this is an amazing person.' We try to leave skepticism and cynicism behind.

What's the ideal amount of work experience you're looking for? I believe last year's class had a range of two to 20 years.

It depends. This year the range of enrolling students is one to 16.

So there is nobody enrolled at Tuck in this year's class with zero work experience?

No.

Do you safeguard against enrolling anyone with zero work experience?

We don't try to safeguard against it, but we'll carefully evaluate an applicant who hasn't had any experience. Even individuals who are seniors in college have had some professional experience. We're looking for what they can contribute in the classroom because we have a very interactive classroom situation and people work in study groups. Part of the Tuck curriculum entails having a study group during the entire first year. So work experience certainly enables them to be more productive members of that. And they also get more out of it themselves.

What can an applicant with little to no work experience do to bolster his or her chances of acceptance?

Again we go back to "compensating" those areas of weakness. It's very important that they interview and it's also very important that they have a very strong background. Compensating for the lack of three to four years of professional experience means that it is important for us to sit down with the student and see what his or her experiences have been -- limited though they may be.

How important a variable are extracurricular activities?

I don't think they're playing a greater role. I think that we've always placed some importance in extracurricular involvement as far as leadership and commitment and responsibility go. And you can get that by looking at somebody's extracurricular background. What are they comitted to? Because it's important to us to be educating our students to be better business people and better business leaders. But it's also important for us to be educating people to go out and be better people. And lead not only professionally, but within their own community and their own life.

Does it hurt an applicant if he or she hasn't participated in any?

It raises a question in our minds and this is where an interview can be crucial to that individual .. or perhaps the optional essay. It definitely raises a question in our minds and we make a point of mentioning it.

Do you allow accepted applicants to defer?

We do on a case-by-case basis.

About how many?

This year it was 19 out of 20.

What do you consider an appropriate situation to grant an applicant a deferment?

With us it's a case-by-case basis, whether it's a professional opportunity or a personal opportunity. A perfect example -- hypothetically speaking -- is an individual who is going to take the year off to hike the Appalachian Trail to raise money for the American Cancer Society. There has to be a reason for it. Most often it is professional. Some people say to their boss that they're going to b-school and the boss will say wait another year and we'll do this for you. Or perhaps some people -- and this has actually happened -- will be in the middle of a major project at a consulting firm that they're working for and are asked to complete the project. In that case, we would accept it.

Did you utilize the wait list this year?

Yes, we did this year.

How many applicants are waitlisted?

We will begin wait listing people with the first round. So it's an accumulation of the four rounds. So it was probably between 200 and 250 people.

Does the waitlist work on a first-come-first-serve basis or is it merit-based?

We ended up with a wait list of about 90 because people removed themselves as the year progressed. We go through it typically in the spring to see who we've heard from and look at how long applicants are willing to be an active member. So therefore there is a lot of selecting out -- some people made a decison to go somewhere else or no longer want to remain active on the list. When we take people from the 90-person waitlist, we're re-evaluating them, reading the application all over again, sitting down as a committee and then making our decision from there. And certainly the interest in Tuck comes into play at this point. Everyone wants a 100% return on their waitlist.

It varies year to year. Last year we did not, but this year we took 15 of the 90 off the list.

Do you encourage rejected applicants to re-apply?

We will talk to people who have not been admitted and counsel them if they want. It's what we call a "why deny" call, where rejected applicants have the opportunity to call us and schedule a 15-minute phone conversation with an admissions officer. And there are most definitely applicants who we encourage to re-apply.

What's this year's annual tuition at Tuck?

$24,900.

Has that changed since last year.

It did. It was $23,700.

What was the principal reason the tuition was upped?

I think it was just a cost-of-living increase.

A bonus for Tuckies must be the cost of living out in rustic New Hampshire.

Well, beer doesn't cost as much .. But seriously, our estimate is $9,300 for room and board, and that's for this year.

Do students frequently travel to Boston or usually stay in New Hampshire?

I think that students stay here. There's so much to do besides their academic studies. They have chosen to come to the Tuck School in Hanover, NH. They do have the opportunity to go to cities and see the recruiting process. They are flown to cities on a regular basis: New York, San Francisco, Chicago, Boston, and the list goes on...

Does Tuck have a program similar to the University of Rochester's Simon School where it takes its entire second year class to New York City for a week's worth of interviews in and around Wall Street?

No, but our students do that on their own.

What type financial aid and scholarship help does Tuck offer?

We have a pretty liberal program as far as scholarships are concerned and I think that we are very generous. Students must apply for financial aid in order to be eligible, which means filing all of the necessary forms by the deadline on Mar. 1. Some 45% of our class of '99 is receiving some sort of scholarlship. Loans for the first years this year are at 73%.

Everything is need-based, not merit-based. There are very few students who pay the total cost of $40,000 because there are very few students who come in here without some sort of financial need. So all of our money is need-based.

Some argue that despite Tuck's solid teaching, active alumni, and cooperative culture, that companies don't think of Hanover, New Hampshire as a recruiting mecca. I know that the career services office was voted by its students in 1996 as having greatly improved. What has the office done to warrant the praise? Are any new companies coming to the Tuck campus?

I think that they've been very aggressive. Steve Lubrano, the director of career services, and a Tuckie '87, and Dan Lynch, the associate director, together have been very aggressive in marketing Tuck to companies all over the country and the world. They've done an incredible job. That office is probably -- next to mine of course -- the best office to have fun in. Our students have access this year.

The graduating class had 145 companies come to campus. Our students last year had access and spoke with 500 companies. This is a rise from years past. When I first started in Tuck in '93, some 99 companies came to Tuck. And I have to attribute that (increase) to Dan and Steve for the work that they've done. About 98% of this year's graduating class has a job.

I think that this is another misperception about Tuck because we are a small school located outside of the Northeast mainstream and that companies don't come here. I think that sometimes people think that telephones don't work here either. Well the recruitment issue -- and our lack of telephone lines -- is a complete misperception.

What do you feel are Tuck's strengths? In other words, you should come to Tuck if you're most interested in what?

I think if you're interested in getting a strong, fundamental business education. There are no concentrations here, and I think that this is one of the best aspects of the program. It's a general management program. So, there are 14 different courses within the core curriculum, and they are required. And the second year is all electives and is the exact opposite experience from the first. So the first year is really a building block for the second year.

Who do you feel are Tuck's toughest competitors as far as competing for students is concerned?

Harvard, Stanford, Wharton, and Kellogg -- those are the schools where we have the largest number of class applications overlap. And I have to put Sloan in there as well. They've crept in there.

Let's end on a light note. I understand that you've only been in the Tuck graduate admissions office for a couple of years now, but I'm sure that you have run into the downright wacky. Do you have any particular tale that exemplifies an applicant's determination to get in to your school at all costs?

We all get those funny little things that people send along with their application. There have been videos that were quite interesting. We received a Doctor Seuss look-alike poem that was along the lines of Green Eggs and Ham about why people should come to Tuck.

The most unusual one this year was an individual on the waiting list who everyday sent us a top 10 list about why we should accept him into the school. He'd send us one number of the top ten list per day. So around reason number 5 there was a happy ending and we let him in.

Sally, would you like to add anything else before we wrap up?

One of the new things within the curriculum ... and this goes back to misconceptions -- that Tuck doesn't have much of an international focus, and therefore, opportunities for international and domestic aren't as great here as they might be elsewhere. I think that we have done a number of things to change that. We have several new study abroad programs or partnerships at HEC and WHU in Germany (Copeland). And this is a typical exchange program where our students have an opportunity to be a student there (in Germany) and vice versa. But also we have some post-doctorate fellows coming from those schools here. So it's a wonderful way to bring people into this community to be a part of it.

We also have strong ties with the Hanoi School of Business. We're going into our third year. Our students don't have the opportunity to study there yet, though. Right now it's more on a faculty level. Our faculty have had the opportunity to teach there at HSB where it's kind of exec ed program.

The newest thing though is a new field study opportunity where we had 25 students who went to Asia: 15 in Jakarta, and 10 in Vietnam working for Nike, Hewlett-Packard, Disney, Motorola, Air Products, and Citibank. The field study gives them an opportunity to work in-company in Jakarta, Hanoi, Ho Chi Minh City. And one of the students was offered a job at Disney based in Singapore. He would be working in China.

This is the (field study's) first year. It's a project that takes place after the summer internship and selected second year students then have this field study project. And they receive course credit for it. As an example, at Hewlett-Packard in Jakarta, they made a major presentation to the headquarters in Hong Kong, and in two weeks they will give a presentation to the CEO in Andover, Mass. So there are great international opportunties at the Tuck School.

Thanks very much for conversing with me today. I'm sure this will be helpful to prospective applicants out there.