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DECEMBER 16, 1999 B-SCHOOL Q&A: ADMISSIONS Meet NYU's Admissions Director A Conversation with John Lyon, Director of MBA Admissions at New York University's Stern School of Business
Q: John, you've been in Stern's admissions office for the better part of a decade. Over that time, the MBA degree has become more popular with students both within the U.S. and abroad. As a result, it's getting harder and harder to get accepted into a top MBA program. In 1993, Stern accepted 48% of its applicants, while this past year it gave the nod to a scant 17% of its applicant pool. Why is there so much demand for an MBA these days? A: There have been a lot of changes and advances in the degree itself and I think students are looking at it, more, not to get a job necessarily, but as [part of] a lifelong learning process. The MBA degree is teaching people how to think, how to attack problems and solve problems. And so I think interest has grown tremendously as schools have responded potentially to some of the criticisms that were out there about the degree itself. Some of the criticisms were that B-schools weren't teaching their students how to think, but only how to get jobs -- how to work in finance, how to market a product, etc. Yes, [learning new job skills] is part of it. But business schools [can impart] a much more global view to their students. They can teach how to attack a problem and manage and lead an organization... So schools are now looking at instruction as global in nature, from the whole business perspective. Q: NYU has among the largest full-time MBA student population in Business Week's Top 25, with 840 students. What elements of the Stern application has the school attached more weight to in order to whittle down its sizable applicant pool into a quality MBA class? A: We haven't changed our process that dramatically as far as what we look at in the application. Our application hasn't changed significantly, outside of the changing essay questions, and a few more things asked on the recommendation forms. But the basic contents are still there, which are: the essays, the academic performance [transcript], the letters of recommendation, and other things about extracurriculars. Our staff has increased, so we're able to continue to evaluate each application in total. We do a lot more interviewing than we ever have in the past. Last year we interviewed about 99.5% of the students who were admitted. We have changed our interview process. Our interviews are by the invitation of the committee, so we tend to focus our time more on the people who have a potential for admission. Q: Of all the elements that you just outlined, it seems like the interview is the one that has become significantly more important. A: It has increased in importance, because previously the applicant had the option to come in for the interview and arrange a meeting at their own will. Because it's by invitation now, it's become a more integral part of the admissions process, as opposed to kind of an add-on. It's one more piece that we have to look at. I like to caution students that the interview is not the make or break piece, that it's not that you get to a certain point and your interview determines whether or not you get in. The interview is just one more piece of the puzzle that we're looking at as part of the application process. Q: But before getting too terribly involved in the application process, applicants should first determine whether the Stern School offers the right fit. A: I absolutely agree.
Q: Briefly, what type of a person does the Stern School best serve? Stern is an urban school, with a fairly large class. It employs a lot of adjunct professors -- professionals who come in to teach electives and inject a real- world element into the coursework... A: You're right, we are a very urban school, and students need to be prepared and aware of that. However, I consider Stern to be a medium-sized school. Students need to know that this is a city campus. The biggest part of our campus is the building that they're studying in -- it's where they spend most of their time. That holds [a] tremendous advantage for students. They also have access to business professionals, whether it's through the Office of Development, guest speaker [events] on campus, or some of those adjunct faculty that they're exposed to. We do have a number of adjuncts teaching here, but they represent a smaller faculty population than our full-time professors do. They're typically teaching courses where they're practicing [the course content] during the day for their jobs, and teaching it during evening classes. In addition, we want students who are going to come here and get involved. A big change we've seen is students coming here who are really taking education to heart and getting involved in the process. For example, we now have what's called the Student Engagement Committee Process -- a committee of students, faculty, and administrators that evaluates issues happening at the school. That came out of discussions with the Dean's Office, [the idea] that the students want to be very involved in the direction the school is going. Our students work together well. We are a very collaborative school, which enhances the learning experience here. Q: When most admission directors talk about enhancing the "learning experience," the term "diversity" tends to come up. Stern has a very high women MBA student population, at 41%. A: In the first year class, [women comprise] 39%. The second year class is 43% [women]. Q: That's heads and shoulders above everyone else in BW's Top 25. What is the school doing to attract women to its MBA program? (Editor's note: Of BW's Top 25 schools, Stern has the highest percentage of women in its first year class.) A: I think a big part of it is word of mouth. The current women students here are spreading the word that this is a place to be, a place that takes the diversity concept to heart. When I say diversity, I like people to think of it beyond the typical percentages -- you know, a percentage of women, a percentage of internationals, a percentage of underrepresented minorities -- but more [offering different] views of the world. The more we can do to enhance different perspectives in the classroom, the better off the learning environment is going to be. So, a big part of it is word of mouth, but we also do a number of events here in New York specifically targeted towards women. Q: What programming does the school have in place to publicize its female-friendly reputation with women? A: The [student group named] Stern Women In Business (SWIB) has a very large membership. It brings a number of speakers on campus and holds a conference every fall. We invite prospective students to that event as well, and that's a great highlight for what's happening at the school. We have a number of fairly influential female alumni as well, which helps. And when we started way back in the early 1900s, we had women graduating from our part-time MBA program. So [educating female students] is something that we've been doing for years. Q: What else does the school do to put itself in front of prospective students -- be they women, underrepresented minorities, or international folks? A: In general, we do a number of things. We hold informational sessions around the world, throughout the year. And we try and take advantage of when we have people outside the New York area who can represent the school. For instance, we have a number of student groups that will be traveling on study trips in January. We have two classes that are dealing with emerging economies. One's going to Argentina, and one is going to a number of cities in China. We'll do informational sessions along with the student groups in those areas. In addition, we have two student groups going to San Francisco and Los Angeles. [They're comprised of] people who are interested in technology, new media, and entertainment. So we'll hook up with those groups as well, in those areas. Any time we have someone out there who can talk about the school, we'll follow up with them. It's the same thing with the dean. Whenever our dean travels, we try and arrange something for him [like talks with prospective students], so that they'll have his perspective as well. Q: Technology is playing a greater role in the admissions process. How has it affected the school's admissions recruitment efforts? A: We're doing a lot more things: e-mailing with current [and prospective] students, responding to questions, trying to inform them of events that are happening around the globe. We also try to use our Web site. So we let students and applicants know what's happening mostly through e-mail and our Web site. [They offer a quicker way to] get the information out as opposed to, for example, someone calling and having to wait two weeks for an application to arrive in the mail. Q: Are there certain mechanisms in place, such as an electronic interview scheduler or an electronic application? A: Right now we have the ability, once you've applied, [to allow you to] check the status of your application 24 hours a day online and see where you are in the process. We're not at the point where we want to give decisions over the Web, but you can check the status. You'll know if a decision has been made and to expect that in the mail sometime soon. In addition, we have a new piece coming up some time in early spring, where students who we've invited to interview can schedule their interview, a class visit, and lunch with a current student, [via the Web]. They can just go [online] and do that -- 24 hours a day, which is especially helpful to our international students -- as opposed to calling up and spending time talking on the phone, figuring out what's going on and what's happening. Q: Just how many different ways can I apply to Stern, once I've decided that it's the school for me? A: There's probably three ways you can do it. One is by ordering or downloading our application materials and filling them out, using the traditional typewriter method or printing clearly. We also participate in Embark.com, so you can apply through embark and also Multi-App. Q: Let's get our hands dirty with the actual application process. Stern has two application deadlines, one on Dec. 15 and the other on Mar. 15, 2000. Does it make a difference when I apply? The old adage is, the earlier the better... A: You're right. The Dec. 15 deadline is for people who are interested in [receiving] merit-based scholarships. If that's something you're interested in, you need to apply by that Dec. 15 deadline. The Mar. 15 deadline is our final deadline. Obviously the earlier you apply, the better, but one of the biggest reasons is the earlier you apply the earlier you're going to have your decision back, and the ability to evaluate the options that you have. [Applying early] just helps the students know [their fate] a little bit sooner. If you're applying by Mar. 15, it might be a little tougher, the spots might not be as available at that point in time. Q: Speaking of which, how many people do you accept to fill the roughly 420 class spots available? A: Our yield typically runs between 50-60%. Last year it was probably right dead [in the] middle of that. So we accept a little bit fewer than 800 candidates. Q: Is there a specific number of spots you try to fill by a certain time of the application season? A: Not necessarily. It depends on what kind of response we get to the offers we put out there. I may have a target in my head similar to what we admitted the previous year. But if we do our job right, following an offer of admission, hopefully that yield number will go up a little bit, and we'll admit fewer people and actually be a little bit more selective. Q: Selectivity, as we've mentioned, has really put the onus on applicants to somehow make themselves stand out. How does one do that? A: I guess I would disagree with the term "stand out." Students sometimes run into a problem by trying to come up with ways that they can make themselves stand out. When someone approaches the application process, I tell them to take two rules of thumb. One is to take their time, and two is to be themselves. I know that sounds simple, but those are things that people don't always necessarily do. We realize that this is a very involved process and it's not something that you can do easily. So it does mean you need to approach [the different facets of the application] carefully and with a lot of advance notice. Start the process early, complete parts of the application, go back to them, and re-review them later. If you do that a number of times, you will submit a better application. The other thing I think people often don't do is be themselves -- they try and put forth what they think we want to hear. Q: Like what, for example? A: For instance, when someone's trying to complete an essay, they may go to a guide that has [a chapter titled], "Essays to get you into business school," [which contains] examples of, "These essays got these people into business school." Yes, those essays got those people into business school, but they're not necessarily going to work for you. It's important that people answer the question. Often, they don't do that. They don't take the time to really look at what we're asking. There are concepts that run through essays from different schools, but you need to insure that you're completely and fully answering our question. Give me a sense of why you want to come to Stern, show me that you've done the research to find out whether Stern is the right place for you. Q: Does it make any difference to you and your colleagues in the admissions office whether a student takes the initiative to actually visit the campus, to go out of his or her way to have face-to-face contact with you? A: That makes more sense for the prospective student than it [affects] me and the admissions process. But in some ways, yes [that can have an impact], because it shows the applicant really cares and is concerned about where they're going. Students can visit Stern a couple of different ways. They can do it prior to the application process -- come visit us, sit in on a class, attend an information session, and take a tour of the facility. I'm not necessarily going to know that when I read [that person's] application, however. The other way to do it is to get as much information as you can up front, apply to Stern, and come as part of the interview process. Then I'm going to [be aware of] that -- and we prefer students, when they're interviewing, to come and do it here on campus. The majority of our interviews take place here at Stern. Q: Are the Big Three -- an applicant's GMAT, GPA, and work experience -- qualifiers to get into B-school? In other words, do you need to hit a certain mark on those criteria in order to even get to the next step of having a Stern admissions official invite you to an interview and get to know you as an individual? A: In some ways, yes. We utilize that information to take it to that next level, that yes, there's potential for admission here and we would like to talk to this person a little bit further. Those are the things that we're going to evaluate to get to that next step, although we do a very thorough read [through the rest of the application] to determine if we want to bring that person in here. So it's also going to involve everything else in the application: the letters of recommendation, extracurricular activities, and things like that. Q: Have the Big Three elements become more important over the course of the last five years? A: I don't think so. Q: Really? Even though a lot of applicants are fretting that they now have to have more work experience, and higher GMAT scores and GPAs? A: I guess I would also say that your recommendations seem to be a lot stronger as well. Your application needs to be error free. We've just gotten more competitive, a you noted [with our tightening selectivity rate] ... from a 48% down to 17%. Those three have gotten more important along with everything else in the application. I know it sounds cliched, but I always go back to: We're looking at you as an individual. When I talk to students about the different pieces of the application, I will break them down, maybe give them some tips and some pointers in different parts of it, but I want them to keep in mind that we're looking at them as an individual. If there are some areas in the application that are not quite as strong, they can potentially be offset by other things. But as we get more and more competitive, the ability to offset something that's a little bit weaker becomes harder. Q: The amount of work experience that today's Stern students have has mushroomed from an average of two years just a couple of years ago, to an average of four to five years. Is that level of professional experience now a prerequisite to entrance at Stern? A: I would say two years is a prerequisite. We really don't let anyone in with less than two years on average. People should keep in mind that [that 4-5 year average] is an average, there are obviously people above that and below that. But two years would be a minimum. Q: You mentioned earlier that Stern is boosting its interviewing efforts. Now, the school interviews by invitation only. So, as an applicant, if you get invited to an interview, you're on the right track. How can I put myself in a position to get that vital invite to the elusive admissions interview? A: There is not much you can do outside of taking the advice that I gave earlier: take a lot of time on your application, get it in early, fully answer the essay questions, and be yourself. There's not much more you can do to try and garner that interview invitation. People should also be aware that it may happen that they're not invited for an interview, and get an offer to be placed on the wait list. That doesn't necessarily mean that they won't get in. Q: Do most of the people who actually sit down for an interview, get the nod? A: Not necessarily. We've conducted over 1,400 interviews in the past couple of years. And you're looking at admitting less than 800. It's almost approaching half that do not get that offer of admission. Q: Interviews occur only on the school's campus? A: It depends. That's where we'd like them to occur. We will do some interviewing offsite, where we'll travel and do some interviews. And, as a kind of last case resort, we may have alumni do things as well, for prospective students that cannot make it to campus. Q: How should I prepare for a Stern sit-down? A: To prepare for the interview, spend some time on your application, reviewing it, before you come in. One of the benefits we have, and I think one of the things students really appreciate about our interviews, is that whoever is conducting the interview has had a chance to review the application. So, it's not just taking a resume and saying, "Tell me a little bit more about yourself," or, "Tell me a little bit more about your position at work." We can ask [applicants] very pointed questions. So, I'd suggest maybe taking a look at your application and anticipating some of the things that we may ask you. Q: Is the interview environment always formal? A: Formal in the sense that we don't want students to be uncomfortable. It's not like a case style interview, where we're going to put a lot of stressful situations in the interview. But it is a business situation. Q: There are several different ways of evaluating an applicant during an interview. What's Stern's method? A: Typically we tend to do more behavioral interviewing, which means we're going to go back to things that the applicant has done, and talk in-depth about some of those specific issues. We'll ask prospective students for examples to highlight some of those concepts. It's not dramatically different from a job interview, although we're looking for more on the "Why business school?" piece, and some of that's going to come from some of the things the applicant has done in the past, how they've gotten to the point where they are now, and where they see themselves going in the future. How can you draw those things together using business school as a conduit? Q: Is there sort of a check list that an interviewer has in hand when evaluating an applicant during an interview? A: These are evaluative and there are a number of things that we do evaluate the student on, but there's nothing that would surprise you in that evaluation. You know, reasons for wanting to come to business school -- a lot of things that go into the evaluation of the application itself. Q: Do you feel it's more important to interview international candidates, in order to gauge their English-speaking skills or cultural orientation? A: I think it's important to interview everyone. I don't think it's any more important for international students. I'd like to see us get to the point of having interviewed 100% of the students who are admitted to the school. We're almost there, and I think we can reach it this year. Q: How should one approach the school's application essays, which are another way for the applicant to reveal something about himself beyond the numbers. Should I approach them the same way as the interview? A: The biggest thing is answering the question, and taking some time. One of the best things a student can do is write their essays, set them aside for a week or so and then go back and reread them, and say, "Does this convey what I want it to convey, does this give people a sense of who I am as an individual?" Surprisingly, sometimes it may not and they may take a different tactic and rewrite that essay. The biggest thing is answering the questions, and proofreading. There is no excuse for an application essay to come in with mistakes in it. Q: Is that frequent? A: More so than I would really like to see. It's carelessness. For one thing, you can't always rely on spell check, that doesn't necessarily do it. You need to proofread these things yourself over and over again. Even have someone else proofread them for grammatical errors. Q: At the top of our conversation, you mentioned that some of Stern's essays have changed. What do the questions encompass? A: Our first one hasn't changed much at all. We evaluate how you got to the current place you are now, where you see yourself going, and how Stern fits into that picture. Our second essay question changes usually, from year-to-year. The current one gives you a couple of different quotes that you can agree or disagree with. We just try to get a sense of what goes on in your mind ... not necessarily [to gauge] your value systems, but to see how would you look at each of these. For instance, "The truth is always the strongest argument." "Tell me to what you pay attention, and I will tell you who you are." Is that an accurate statement? Is that something that you would agree or disagree with? Our last question, which usually garners the most publicity, is to creatively describe yourself to your MBA classmates. We get a whole variety of different responses to that, from well-crafted essays to board games to models ... we had a master chef submit a cheesecake that they'd made. [The question] allows students to show a creative side you typically don't necessarily get in a business school application. I do caution students to not worry about this question. A lot of students worry about this, because they think: "Well I can't do that, I can't come up with something really creative." Writing can be just as creative as a cheesecake can. Q: The recommendations also play what you have intimated is a vital part in the application process. At the top of our conversation you said that the recommendations were becoming more important as the entire admissions process has become more competitive. Again, what are you looking for? A: I think they're very important, and the reason I do is because they're the one piece in the application that's doesn't come from you. It's a kind of outside evaluation. Students should try and secure recommendations from [the business side]. We don't necessarily want an academic recommendation because we're getting that information from somewhere else. They should always use people that they have reported to, in some capacity. It's hard for a colleague to really give us what we're looking for. Students should also always go for content over [a recommender's] title. Substance is always better than a title [that the applicant may think] is going to impress us. It doesn't, when there's really nothing in the recommendation that's going to help us. And [having recommenders provide examples of the applicants' accomplishments or growth] can make all the difference in the world. It's helpful to encourage recommenders to do that by saying: "If you can think of anything specific that you can put in there to enhance the recommendation, something that I've done..." That can make a big difference. Q: Does having an average of four year's work experience put the onus on the applicant to get most of his or her recommendations from a supervisor or work colleague? A: We require one from a current supervisor, unless they give us an explanation as to why that can't occur. But a supervisor or a former supervisor works. Q: Once I've submitted all of my application materials, what's the school's turnaround for response? A: We say 8-to-12 weeks, but it depends on the timing of it, and if you're close to a deadline or not. Q: How will I hear back from the school? A: That will come via U.S. mail. We don't call admitted applicants at this point in time. Q: Is the accept/deny envelope a giveaway -- a fat envelope is good, a thin one is bad? A: Not necessarily, because there are a variety of things that could come in the mail in the interim. We might be having an event, so you might get a letter in the mail, and students get all panicked because they get this letter and they think it's a rejection. When we send an interview invitation letter, students are sometimes caught by surprise. They think: "Oh, no, here it comes. I'm not getting in." So there really is no giveaway, it's just a matter of opening the envelope and finding out what's inside. Q: How many people open the envelope and find that they've been put on the wait list? A: It varies from year to year, and it's not a statistic that I put out there because I think it just causes undue stress on people. One year, for instance, we may take people off the wait list, then the following year we may take none. It changes so much from year to year, that it's not a good indication for students that I get into [wait list] numbers. Q: What can I do to get myself off of the wait list and on the school's class roster? A: You can be patient. It helps to follow up with something. Go back and look at your application, think about why you may not have gotten an invitation initially. Look at, statistically, where you stand. It would help to slip in another letter of recommendation. Look at your essays. Can you give us a little bit more information on that side? Would it help to retake the GMAT exam? Whatever you can provide us that you feel would improve your candidacy ... but keep in mind, you don't want to send too much because there's a point of diminishing returns, where we're processing more paperwork on you than we are for half the wait list. Q: Lastly, what should applicants who have not been admitted do to bolster their chances of acceptance for the next time around, when they reapply? A: The same thing they would do if they were placed on the wait list. They should go back to their application, evaluate it from top to bottom, and determine where they can make improvements. One of the reasons we don't provide feedback to students is because my concern is that when you provide feedback, and you say, "You're a really strong applicant, but you need another year of work experience," and a student for the entire year then spends all of his time working on his career, then, for example, [his involvement in] extracurriculars drops, or his GMAT drops below the average ... [Prospective students] maybe ignore other things, and they reapply and they're still not admitted. I encourage people, if they're reapplying and they haven't been admitted, to evaluate every aspect of the application and see where they can make improvements. There are certain things that are set in stone, like your undergraduate record, but there are other things you can do to enhance almost every other aspect of your application. Get BusinessWeek directly on your desktop with our RSS feeds.  Add BusinessWeek news to your Web site with our headline feed. 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