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Our guest on Dec. 20, 1999, was Keith Vaughn, the Director of MBA Admissions at USC's Marshall School of Business [25th on BW's 1998 Top 25 list]. Keith earned his bachelors degree in economics at Amherst College, and an MBA from USC. Before coming to USC, he worked as a commercial banker for four years in the Bay Area and later in an entrepreneurial venture (a computer reseller of hardware and software) in Washington D.C. Prior to joining the Marshall admissions office, Keith was an advisor to first year MBA students in the Marshall's Career Resource Center. Mr. Vaughn was interviewed by Business Week Online reporter Nadav Enbar. Here's the transcript of that discussion:

1999-2000 USC Marshall Admissions Profile

Total Enrollment 1,426 Full-Time Students 583 Tuition/Board $23,958; $13,000 Female 35% Non-U.S. Citzens 19% Underrepresented Minorities 12% Applicants Accepted [Selectivity] 24% Applicants Admitted [Yield] 47% Number of Applicants 2,600 GMAT Avg. Range 660 540-780 GPA Avg. Range 3.3 2.4-4.0 Work Exp. Avg. Range 5 1-13 Domestic Deadline(s) 04/01/00 Int'l Deadline(s) 02/07/00 Fin. Aid Deadline(s) 01/10/00

Q: Keith, you've been evaluating Marshall MBA applications for a couple of years now. Has there been an immense amount of change in the school's application process over the course of your tenure?
A: In terms of the process, there have been some significant changes. Five years ago, when I started reviewing applications here at Marshall, we were reading paper files, and today, we read all of our applications online. What that means is that every application that comes to our office gets photo-imaged, and the people in my office connect to those applications via their computers, and evaluate them on their computer screens.

Q: Marshall has seen an increase in its volume of applications. Two years ago [in 1997], the school received 1,800 or so applications, and this past year, for the Class of 2001, Marshall received 2,600 apps -- a 45% increase. Has the school increased its resources to handle this larger pool? Or has the online medium just made the entire process more manageable, obviating the need to increase staff?
A: I'm happy to say that, yes, we have increased our resources. We've added one additional staff member to the admissions office to handle the increase. And our applications have, in fact, doubled over the last five years. We're expecting a continued increase this year too. So, with the processing system changing from paper files to online files and the increase in the staff, we hope to be able to handle the volume, and be as efficient in responding to applicants as we've been in the past.

Q: Technology has, in fact, made a pretty big imprint on the admissions scene, both in giving applicants greater access to information and in allowing them to actually apply online. Let's talk a bit about this new tech side of MBA admissions...
A: On the applicant end, in particular, it's allowed them to get away from the old machines that were used to fill out their applications, such as the typewriter, or the pencil or pen. Today, they can access their applications online, and fill them out on their computers. They don't have to sit down at one time and do all this. They can actually save the information and come back to it over time, and complete it. And once it's completed online, then they can press a button and ship that application directly to the schools. So that's a very convenient way for applicants to fill out applications.

On the school side, I think what it's done for us is forced us to be more technologically savvy, in that we're getting some of these applications via online. In the past what we've done is print [electronic applications] out and then treat them just as if they had been sent to us via the old paper system. But today, what we're trying to do is process that information electronically. So therefore, when the application is sent to us from the applicant, we try to transfer that information directly to our computer system, so as not to go from electronic to paper, and then back to electronic. That's been the most difficult part for us: processing the information electronically within our home university.

Q: Has technology played a part in the school's recruitment efforts?
A: One of the things we try to do is pay attention to the number of visitors to our Web page. We try to market to our prospective students through our Web site. But in addition to that, we're also utilizing some services out there to help our applicants out. For example, we have our application available online through a company called Embark.com. They maintain a data base of potential applicants who hit their site. And we can potentially market to that group of people who are just searching for information via Embark. So we try to continuously market to everyone who is capable of viewing us via the Web.

Q: Have you installed anything, for example, to allow prospective candidates to actually schedule an interview via the Web?
A: We're in the process of installing an online interview scheduling system, and we've already integrated an event scheduling system. The event scheduler allows prospective students to sign up for a particular reception via the Web. That way, we know how many people to expect to see once we get there, and the participants can also see who's coming. So, with the events scheduler and the interview scheduler, as well as the online application, there are a lot of different systems online for prospective students to stay abreast of what's going on at Marshall.

Q: When do you see the interview scheduling tool becoming available?
A: The interview scheduler is expected to be up this application season, in 2000. We've already completed round one of our application pool this year. But I would expect in the Spring of 2000, the interview scheduler will be up and running.

Q: And the interview scheduler will allow people to schedule an interview either at the school, or off campus at a reception?
A: Yes, it will allow applicants who have been invited to interview with us, to schedule interviews, either on campus, or with an alumnus in their area. And again, I stress that these interviews are for people who have been invited to interview with us. It's not mandatory to interview at USC but we do conduct interviews. And generally, we invite applicants to an interview after we receive their applications.

Q: Are Marshall's informational sessions gaining popularity? Is there a greater incentive to attend a Marshall reception now that applicants can do more than engage in a Q&A session with school officials?
A: I think what's happening at forums is that schools and potential applicants are slightly frustrated by the old format of going to one central location where applicants can see a lot of different schools and pick up information. What's changed is that the information is generally available via the Web and other sources, and applicants basically already have the information. What they would like to do and what schools would like to do as well is spend more time, either one-on-one, or in small group sessions, with these applicants. So the format for forums needs to change to catch up with the times.

Q: Is that what occurs at Marshall-only recruitment sessions?
A: Yes, we do that. And if there is an MBA Forum in San Francisco, the Marshall School will also conduct a reception separate from that forum, but around the same time frame. That way students attending the forum can also attend the reception, and we can have that group experience and one-on-one experience with applicants who are looking at the Marshall School of Business.

Q: The Marshall-only reception allows prospective students to both get a better feel for what the school has to offer, but also, essentially kick the process off, of applying.
A: Exactly. It allows them to get more information about the administration, as well as to meet with faculty, and alums, and in some cases with current students. So this gives them a much broader picture of the school, and more time to allow for questions that are directly aimed at the admissions process.

Q: It's been well-documented how much more competitive the MBA admissions landscape has become over the last seven or eight years. Many candidates now stress more than ever about trying to stand out from the rest of the pack. How can applicants do that?
A: Well, first of all, the best advice I can give to candidates is to remember to read the directions and apply early. In general, applicants are looking to apply to several different programs, and they mistakenly believe that an essay that answers one particular school's question may be easily tweaked to answer another school's essay questions. That isn't always the case. So, applicants should be extremely careful about tweaking their story to fit the particular school that they're interested in applying to.

Q: GMAT, GPA, and work experience class averages have all increased dramatically at the top business schools. That puts the onus on applicants to measure up on that front, and also go one step farther by demonstrating how they've accomplished something "unique." How important is "uniqueness?" It seems like some applicants tend to lose perspective when trying to express that certain quality that they feel "enhances a school's classroom." How do you evaluate that?
A: Candidates have a tough time trying to figure out what's going to make their applications stand out. Schools look at a number of different factors. The academic portion, the GMAT, and the GPA are critical to the application process, and I think applicants need to look at the profile sheets that schools provide, with regard to their statistics for their class. For instance, at Marshall, the GMAT scores range from the 540 to 780. Prospective students, if they're within that range, can assume that they are somewhat competitive with the admitted group of students at our program. If they're outside of that range, then other qualities need to, in some ways, compensate for a deficiency on the academic side. And those other qualities can show up in terms of their leadership attributes, their work experience, their letters of recommendation, or something else that makes us take notice of their particular application.

Also, we're trying to evaluate students on the same criteria, and the same criteria means everyone submits the same amount of information. We, for example, ask for two letters of recommendation. We really don't want four. We're asking for two for a particular reason. The ones that stand out the best are the ones who come across as well-prepared. They've put together solid, well-written applications. Their stories say a lot about who they are, and it doesn't appear that their applications were just shaped to fit our program. We can tell if someone has just copied some of the information from our brochure onto their application, to somehow indicate an interest in our program...

What we're trying to do is get a real feel for the individual, and when that comes across, it's pretty obvious. On the other side, on the short end of that, it's also obvious when an application fails to meet the standards that we're looking for -- that we can almost tell when an applicant has essentially picked up the application, filled it out quickly, and spent less than a month putting this whole thing together and sending it to us.

Q: What is a fair amount of time to set aside in order to put together a well-thought out Marshall application?
A: I think you need a minimum of 3-6 months. That includes research time -- and part of that research is visiting the campus, talking to students, meeting with alumni, as well as spending the amount of time that's necessary to prepare for and take the GMAT exam.

Q: Is it important to land somewhere near the school's GMAT and GPA averages? A lot of applicants tend to become forlorn when their GMAT score or GPA don't quite match up against the school's most recent class profile. What's your take?
A: That's an individual assessment that needs to be made. The GMAT and the GPA are one part of the application, and certainly if they are close to the average, that helps a candidate's application. If they aren't very close to the average, then the other parts of their application need to stand out. So it's incumbent upon applicants to make sure that they get across to us their most interesting qualities, and what makes them solid MBA candidates.

Q: Let's say that my GMAT score is perhaps decent but not stellar. Would you encourage me to retake the GMAT, especially now that the GMAT-CAT allows applicants to literally take the exam three weeks out of every month?
A: I suggest that when applicants submit their applications, that they submit the best GMAT scores that they could possibly achieve, at the time that they do their application. So, if a candidate feels that her score doesn't adequately represent what her potential is on that particular exam, then yes, I would suggest that she retest. We take the highest score when we're considering admitting a particular applicant. So, if a prospective student has already taken the GMAT several times and is not doing any better than what they've done in the past, then I would suggest that the applicant not continuously retest.

Q: So there is a limit to how many times an applicant should retake the GMAT?
A: That limit, again, is an individual consideration. But we certainly would not like to see applicants taking the GMAT 10-12 times -- and that has occurred [laughs]! It's an expensive exam and it's meant to tell us something about an applicant's ability to do well during their first year of the program. When a prospective student doesn't test particularly well, I look at other aspects of his application. Maybe, for example, his undergraduate experience demonstrates his ability to do the work. Short of that, prospective students can also take classes, like at community colleges, in their particular areas, that may also help to demonstrate their ability to do the course work.

Q: How important is doing a campus visit? Do you suggest everyone visit Marshall, or that only a portion of the applicants who have a legitimate chance of getting into the school come by to see USC in all its luster?
A: We suggest that everyone visit the campus, and that means anyone who is looking [to attend] business school either for this year or for the future years in their career. One of the things we're proud of is the recent opening of our new facility, Popovich Hall -- the business school's main building. It's a building that was constructed solely for our graduate students. There are a few offices in the building, but none of the faculty offices are there. There are eight case study rooms, and all with audio-video teleconferencing capability. There are 1,100 data hookups in the facilities, even in the indoor-outdoor cafes. So students here can sit outside all year long and plug in to the university.

Q: I guess that's a legitimate option when it's 75 degrees and sunny on December 20th.
A: Exactly. So we recommend, especially for people from out of state, to come [and visit] when the temperature is not the greatest in other areas of the country. Come out to California in December, January, and February, and visit the campus.

Q: What does a campus visit involve?
A: Essentially, what an applicant needs to do is just contact our office. We have a program called the Student Ambassador Program. Through this program, we set [prospective applicants] up with students who take them on a tour of the building, take them to a class, and then bring them to a 1:00 session [Monday through Thursday] where they can sit down with a member of the admissions committee and go through a Q&A session.

Q: How long does the Student Ambassador Program last?
A: It starts in October -- after classes begin, and after students are settled into classes -- and goes through the month of April.

Q: In 1997, Marshall made it no longer mandatory for applicants to sit down for an interview. Today, the majority of the school's interviewing is done by invitation only. How do you determine who to invite to an interview? Do you only invite folks who you think have a legitimate shot at getting into Marshall? Do you try and interview only those applicants who you are on the fence about?
A: It's a combination. We would honestly like to interview every candidate who applies to the program. However, given some obvious constraints, we cannot possibly do that. During the recruiting process, during the forums, we have open interview schedules. So, when we're traveling around the country, meeting with potential applicants, they can sign up with us beforehand, via the event scheduler that we talked about earlier, and sign up for interviews. No screening takes place, and it's done on a first-come, first-served basis.

But once the application cycle begins, meaning once we enter round one -- which is November 1st for us -- we select candidates to be invited to interviews based upon some basic criteria. We're looking at people who have some work experience and have graduated from college -- it's just on the basis of a resume. We make some initial attempts to contact people and request that they have an interview with either someone on the admissions committee, or with an alumnus.

Also, once we start reading applications, we may decide that it would be helpful to have some additional information from a candidate. And in that case, we may ask them to interview with us as well. Interviews are not mandatory, and we will accept students without having interviewed them. But it's something that we started years ago, I would think at least five or six years ago, when we were interviewing every applicant to the program, that we thought that we got some additional information about the applicant [with the interview]. So we try to make sure that we interview every candidate that we're considering for admission. So, in short, when a student gets a request from the school to conduct an interview, in some ways they can look at that as a positive statement that there are some areas in their application that we like and that we'd like to hear more about.

Q: Who does the bulk of interviewing?
A: In the past, alumni have done the bulk of our interviewing. But this year, what we're trying to do -- and this is partly the result of having moved into new facilities and trying to make sure that students visit the campus -- is encourage applicants to come to campus and interview with someone on the admissions committee. About 25% - 30% of this year's interviews will be conducted on campus. And then there are cases where, when, for instance, we were in San Francisco, we interviewed 50-100 individuals during the weekend.

In the event that applicants cannot come to campus, we will have an alumnus interview in the site that they're located at, or we may even conduct telephone interviews. In addition, we're also trying to interview the international applicant pool. In cases where we have applicants in Tokyo, Hong Kong, Taiwan, or even Indonesia, we will have international offices the university has recently opened that are staffed by MBA graduates. And when we have international applicants that we're interested in, we may have them visit the particular office that's in their location, and have an interview conducted at that site.

Q: Is the onus on the international candidates, particularly, to sit down for an interview? After all, the interview is a good forum for the school to, for instance, gauge an applicant's English proficiency and cultural orientation.
A: One of the things that we're looking at in the interview for all of our applicants is their communication skills. So, for international students as well as domestic students, we're looking at their ability to communicate and get their point across in class, as well as understand the material that's being spoken about.

Q: There are several types of interviewers who can conduct an interview. Does the interview's weight change depending on who the person is asking the questions?
A: I don't believe there's any disadvantage to the applicant sitting down with an alumnus or an office manager in a particular country, or the admissions committee. We've essentially all gone through the same type of interview training, and what we're looking for is basically the same. We're looking for students who have good communication skills and can add value to the Marshall environment. And we listen to alumni consistently to help us identify good people.

Q: Keith, when we last spoke, you were talking about the possibility of training students to do some interviewing. What's your stance today?
A: Our stance is that, if an applicant comes to campus, we will still try to have someone on the admissions committee meet with that particular applicant, rather than a student. I think when applicants come to campus, they really want to be able to sit down with someone who has a direct link to the admissions committee. In some cases, when we've gone on the road, we've taken some students with us, and the students have assisted us in interviewing candidates. So, where it's appropriate, and where it's needed, we will utilize students.

Q: What does the interview look like?
A: The interview is a one-on-one session. For instance, if someone comes and has an interview with me, they would meet me in my office, and it would be an opportunity for us to sit down for a half hour and have a conversation. It is not a job interview. It is an opportunity for the applicant to add a personal touch to their overall profile, to give us more information about who they are and what their motivation and interest is in our particular program. The interview also gives applicants the opportunity to ask questions.

Q: Can an interview tip the scales between one application versus another?
A: The interview can certainly add information. But having an interview by itself will not guarantee that an applicant is going to be accepted. We'll probably interview somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,000 people this year, and we'll accept somewhere around 600 individuals to meet our class size. So an interview can help an applicant, but just sitting down for one is not going to tip the scales. A productive interview can, however, work in your favor.

Q: Unlike the interview, the essays are a required element of the application. What are some good rules of thumb for candidates to have in mind when they approach the school's three essays?
A: We have two mandatory essays as a part of our application, and one that's optional. Each question tries to get at a particular facet of the applicant. For example, through the first essay question, we're trying get a handle on an applicant's short and long-term goals, and how they're going to accomplish that by getting an MBA. We ask them to give us no more than three pages. For the second question, we're trying to get a little more information about their life experiences and the particular qualities that they might add to the Marshall environment. We ask for no more than two pages for that one. So, the first thing is for applicants to stay within those guidelines. The second thing is just to be honest about who they are and what their intentions are.

And we're not asking that the applicant be so direct as to tell us that they want to be a managing director of a particular bank five years after getting their MBA. We're asking that, since they've been out in the workplace somewhere between two and six years, our applicants have some understanding about what they like and what they don't like, and what they need to work on to make themselves more attractive to a particular industry or market that they're trying to get into. And if they can be honest about that within their application, and honest about who they are, and again, in a well-written format, then I think they'll be fine.

Q: What are several serious red flags that you've come across when reviewing the application essays?
A: One of the first flags that I would throw out is something that I mentioned earlier: that if candidates have not paid attention to the subtle differences in the different programs they're applying to, and have simply made a name change on their essays, then that comes across. Also, there are some areas of grammar that a student can possibly correct by having a third party read their essays to make sure that the message that's being conveyed is what they're trying to get across to us. So, those two areas are the main flags that I can think of, with regard to giving some advice for the essays.

Q: Most of Marshall's applicants have an average of about five years of work experience. Does that mean that the school's two recommendations should be completed by a supervisor or a work colleague?
A: We suggest that both letters of recommendation be from the professional working environment. Now, in some instances, we understand why a particular applicant cannot go to their immediate supervisor or their employer, because they may not have divulged to their employer that they plan to attend business school. In those cases, we would still expect that the letters of recommendation come from the broader professional environment, meaning colleagues or customers that the candidate has been involved with in their professional life.

Q: Can you explain how the school's evaluation process works once you've received my sparkling application? How does that process unfold?
A: Each application is read by two individuals, and then we meet in committee, to discuss the applicant. So, in round one, for instance -- which we've just completed -- we've received a couple hundred applications, and we sit down, and there's a committee of five people that evaluates each application. Each reader presents his or her recommendations at committee meetings and we discuss the recommendations made. Each reader will either recommend to admit, deny, or waitlist a particular candidate. The biggest committee discussions come when there is a difference of opinion between two readers about [the merits of a certain applicant]. In some of those cases, the discussion will be quite heated, and we may end up with any one of the three possible outcomes. The primary consideration is the first reader -- he or she presents the file to the admissions committee, and either receives support from the second reader and from the other members of the committee, or does not.

Q: Does there have to be a unanimous acceptance by the committee for an applicant to be accepted?
A: Yes.

Q: Lastly, what is the turnaround for response, whether it be good or bad, for applicants?
A: Our turnaround period is geared around each round. Each round has a deadline, and there's a notification date that is roughly six to seven weeks after each deadline. So, for instance, for the November 1st deadline -- which was our first deadline -- the decision period was December 6. For the December 6 deadline, which just passed, our notification date is January 24th. January 10th is our third deadline, and March 6th is the notification date. February 7th is the fourth deadline, and April 10th is the notification date. And April 1st is the final deadline, and May 15th is the notification date. With regard to the February 7th date, that's also the recommended deadline for international students.


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