Toyota's quality slips, again

My question (to Toyota) is, are you listening? Customer centricity? ... ?

I could see this coming -- after owning 4 flawless Toyotas in 20 years, we had trouble with our fifth, a Camry. After 38k miles in 2.5 years, there is a persistent rattle in a vent. I have been trying to get the dealer to fix it since it first appeared at 1k miles -- but he wants $250 for the plastic part, and $175 to install it. I called Toyota and was told by the phone rep that the car is out of warranty because of extended mileage and second I should have bought an extended warranty at the time of purchase. He told me the company recommends buying that warranty. He offered to open up a file on on my complaint but told me it was unlikely that the company would pick up the cost. I declined.

If Toyota considers a vent to be something that deteriorates with mileage, then it has bigger problems with its design. I will leave you to guess the odds of my owning a sixth vehicle by Toyota.

I had one of the Lexus LS470 and it was a dog - what was worse was how they treated me. I now have a GMC and it is GREAT - Never again

oh come on,toyota is great compaired to u.s. junk.do your owne test,look what breaks down on the road side every day plenty of g. m. products.have owned almost 20 for business and pleasure and the true test is after 60,000 miles.

My question is why would CR be so bias as to just because of the emblem give it a recomendation arent they the ones at fault for not even testing the car. i never owned a toyota and never will i only drive chevy. I have 3 chevy's right now and i got over 200,000 miles without a single cylinder head or valve going wrong. CR is so bias that people should stop reading it.

We have driven Totota for 30 years but this year we apted for a Honda as our experience with Toyota included leaving the seal off the plug at oil change, refuse to repair under extended warrranty drivers side visor that the service people probably broke, and left the emergency brake on creating a need for early (40,000 mile) brake job.

Service is just that, service to Toyota not the customer. I advised them that they are on the same road as GM was a number of years ago when they convinced their employees that their marketing slogans were true, and they began to act that way.

I own a 2005 Corolla and a 2001 Tacoma and I couldn't ask for two better vehicles. I will never drive anything else. Toyota is doing a good job in my book and I say to them just keep up the good work!

toyotas bad quality is not any earth sheking news to me for years they have hid behind good magizine reports could it be they own some of the magizines? ok it;s out of the closet thank God!
tom

Glad I bought the 06 Honda Accord LX coupe with the v-6 instead of the Toyota last year. Toyotas are over priced and over rated and they cost a fortune to repair.

I have owned 2 Toyota's so far. I am a big fan of their vehicles for a few reasons, but the biggest reason is because I like the way they look, feel, and drive. Isn't that the biggest thing to consider when buying a car? I wouldn't go buy a Chevorlet just because the quality is getting better. I buy cars I like. If they have problems, then so be it. If I liked the Nissan cars better, I would buy one of those.

you know what.... i am not giving anyone else my money.... international relations are straining and were making them richer while uneployment and debt is on the rise in the U.S. AND... as far as American cars go... were not exactly making crap here... Ford, Chevy and GMC make some great vehicles... nice, modern, comfortable and you cant kill em.... yeah sure sometimes the button on the radio comes off.. but ill take that over giving anyone else my money anymore....

Andros, into the fire you go. I don't know the problem with your LS470, but no doubt your attitude was very bad. Lexus folks don't abuse customers, they leave that up to GM, Ford, and Chrysler dealers. There are decades of history of this.

There is a problem with Leela's story about her noisy vent. Since 1K miles the dealer has refused to fix the problem? Sorry, that is too great a stretch. And the chances are excellent that an extended warranty would not have covered a vent. The EWs are largely huge money-makers for the selling dealers and very little more.

That Toyota has some housecleaning to do goes un-challenged. While customer satisfaction is generally high, that with the dealers never has been. I suspect that in many cases those dealers were marginal domestic car outfits looking for something better but not changing their shoddy ways of doing business which, face it, had worked just fine (for them) for a long time.

After 25 years of Chevy Trucks I was ready for a change, and "drank the koolaid" of Toyota quality and superiority. My 2007 Tundra is the worst truck I have ever owneed. Poor quality is just the start. The crew cab feels smaller than the specs and the truck is underpowered (don't believe the ads). And after living with it for six months it is obvious to me that in so many small ways Toyota still does not understand the American truck buyer. They say curiosity killed the cat. As soon as I can afford it I'll dump this dog and return to a real truck. Chevy here I come.

I would never buy a toyota for the simple reason tht their customer service sucks!!! I had to wait for an hour for a sales rep for merely test driving the car and further after an hour the sales rep gives me a crappy reason tht he has to attend other customers..I ultimately bought a Honda ....Honda is way too good compared to toyota and the customer service is par excellence....Toyota deserves this for them to come to their senses and come to the ground...When i went to lexus showroom those people were even more sluggish....Gosh i dnt know whether they know a word called "CUSTOMER SERVICE"

You cant compare toyota with honda.

Honda's engine is impeccable. i once drove a honda accord with 225000 miles but the car could outrace any other car out there and its drive was beautifull

As for comparing toyota with American cars. Please. Get real

I have owned 9 Toyotas since 1978 and obviously have been very happy with them. Except for one thing...in two of the Toyota trucks I have owned (Tacoma and Tundra) mice have managed to climb up into the A/C ducts, died and STUNK up my vehicles to the point of being unable to drive them. I live in the county and mice are out here, but why do they only manage to climb up ONLY Toyota's ducts? By the way, Toyota could care less.

January 2007, Toyota was in court for numerous engine problems. Everytime you buy foreign, the US dollar becomes weaker. Buy American, drive American and keep those paper dollars in your wallet worth something!

Marc - I hope you're aware that many Toyota vehicles are made in the USA and many GM vehicles are either built or have their parts sourced from other countries like Mexico. I saw a report on it in Consumer Reports, and GM doesn't really mean American made any more. The Chevy Aveo for example, i believe, is made in Mexico. U.S. companies are outsourcing a lot of work - and if you think the stock market is what's american - you can buy Toyota stock as easily as GM stock so there's really no difference.

What we need is for all the car companies to step up to the competition, not succeed by others failure.

I have a 1991 "Tacoma" (the name wasn't used then) with 135,000 miles on it: original clutch,muffler,etc. It's a great little truck!

I have a 1999 Mercedes E300D. 207,000 miles on it. It's a money pit. MB USA runs its business the way it wants to and this 6 time buyer who obviously was loyal now isn't. Agency is great but MB not.

GM and Chrysler (pre MB) all drank the mean water and are now having to reinvent themselves. If they put the customer first, the rest would take care of itself.

The Japanese/Toyota in General have been making JUNK for years and covered up their numerous "DEFECTS/RECALLS" as "Service Upgrades"! Now the TRUTH is emerging ,but not before thousands of pinheads abandoned AMERICAN OWNED Autos for this FALSE SENSE of Japan Quality! COMPARE the FUSION with the Japanese CAMARY and you will see AMERICAN OWNED AUTO Companies produce HIGH QUALITY ,SERVICEABLE,RELIABLE,HIGH TECH,BEAUTIFUL Cars that any REAL AMERICAN would be proud to own. BUY USA!

I nearly bought a Toyota in 1988, when I had my eye on the new Supra, but opted for the Honda Prelude 4WS instead. It was several $1000's cheaper, but much slower and not as snazzy looking. Several years later, I drove that Supra - used - at a local dealership, as I still drooled over the design. Although the mileage was reasonable and it had not been abused, nearly EVERY subsystem had stopped functioning - the A/C, power windows, door locks, etc. Needless to say, I stayed with my Prelude, which motored along impeccably for several more years until the rust finally won.

I now (still) own a 1992 Acura Vigor with 200,000+ miles, which I drive every day without incident. All three of these 'sporty' cars were Japenese built, and all were first-year models. That to me is a pretty good indication of the difference in quality between brands.

To Marc,
Not giving any one else your money? Sure you are - to the bloated UAW that is the biggest drag on US automakers' quality, reliability, design, and performance (driving and quarterly financials). Besides, a large portion of imports are manufactured here anyway - so, the average line worker has good job and enjoys more security than their US nameplate counterparts. US companies can get it right - check out Trader Joe's in the grocery industry. Times have changed and those "someone elses" are also human beings.

I'm a Toyota consumer-had a 1995 Tacoma that ran FLAWLESSLY for 9 years, and now I have a 2004 RAV4 AND a 2007 Toyota Tundra. No mechancial problems with my RAV4 at all, and I don't expect my Tundra to be problematic.

Will I be considering a UAW-made vehicle anytime soon? Unlikely...and I'm not missing anything either. Even if Toyota actually encounters real problems at some point in the future, I'll give Honda or a European make a chance before considering a lower long term durability UAW-made vehicle. You pro-UAW folks seem to forget that Toyota's philosophy comes from the AMERICAN, William Edwards Deming.

The UAW was too stupid to take his instructions seriously...and they are paying for it now.

The UAW is not the best American automobile engineering-that honor goes to Tesla Motors.

Wild Willy - let me get this straight...

You have:

1. A 16-year-old Toyota with 135,000 miles on it.

-- AND --

2. An 8-year-old Mercedes with 207,000 miles on it.

Um...do you think perhaps that a vehicle being driven 8,500 miles per year vs. 26,000 miles per year might have something to do with the fact that the latter is a money pit? Perhaps if you didn't drive your cars into the freakin' ground, you'd have a better experience.

As for me, my 2005 Honda Accord EX V-6 with 25,000 miles is the best car I've ever owned. Handles wonderfully, looks great, comfortable as hell, and hasn't had a single problem. There's something to be said for the good folks in Marysville, OH.

Of the fifty or so cars I've owned - most purchased new - during the last fifty something years, the best was a 1986 Toyota Cressida, and the worst: a 2006 Toyota RAV-4 Sport.

We recently parted with the RAV-4 after driving it 14K and enduring a plethora of problems, including but not limited to a CD player which ate a batch of our CDs, a hole in the radiator which almost resulted in engine failure, problems with the engine which resulted in dead spots and lurching when accelerating, a problem with the cruise control which sometimes resulted in the transmission searching endlessly for the correst gear when climbing hills - and the engine alternately screaming and lugging all the way to the top - etc.

Based on our experience, Toyota's RAV-4 should also be downgraded by Consumers Report.

I have a 1992 Corolla Wagon, 250,000 miles on the original clutch, motor and transmission. No oily smoke and still gets 40mpg out of its 1.6L twin cam engine. I would probably not buy another Toyota just because they are getting a bit over priced for what you get.

Since 1982 my wife and I have had 2 Cressidas, 3 Camrys, 2 Siennas, 1 Highlander and 2 Avalons.
We never looked at anything else, taking for granted Toyota's solid build quality, and their silent turbine-smooth engines.
In 2005 we got a new Avalon, our most expensive Toyota yet. This piece of junk was very badly assembled, build quality was terrible, the transmission hesitated dangerously, slipped slammed and banged, rattles were everywhere, engine sounded like a diesel and was course, the ride was hard and jittery. The interior was cheaply made and panels did not align properly. Even the headliner was loose. It had so many problems, I had a list of 20 items to fix at the first service. The dealer never fixed any of the problems over the next few months, describing them all as "normal". I tried a couple of other dealers without success and I filed a complaint with Toyota Customer Service who really tried hard to get rid of me and just turned me back to the dealers. I fixed many rattles including a ball-bearing rolling below the floor, tapping from suspension welds, loose electrical wires that had been "secured" with sticky tape that melted in summer, but new rattles kept on developing.
The transmission hesitation was so bad, I almost had an accident twice and I eventually traded the junk-box for a Nissan after only 6,000 miles, and replaced my wife's rattling Sienna with a Honda Pilot, not willing to take a risk on another new Toyota.
I am truly AMAZED at how Toyota have literally thrown quality out of the window. These are not the same cars they used toi build. Their warranty is useless and the dealers don't care about customers at all.
The latest Consumer Reports rating is just the beginning. Toyota is in a quality freefall and they have certainly lost me as a customer.

Complacence is the enemy of qualuty, and Toyota is clearly going the way dinosaur company Sony.

Having 2003 Honda Accord LX and 2006 Corolla CE I can tell you that these cars are SO far away from each other in terms of quality. Honda is much better even it is twice as old. I personally think Toyota cut too many corners trying to be #1, quality of their materials is simply not adequate any longer.

Before I bought Camry, I tested Saturn Aura and Dodge Avenger. Saturn and Dodge did not offer the good price for me. Finally, I got Camry one for better price and quality. I am happy with my first ever Camry. Everyday I drive Camry for my business and travel, I feel comfortable and quiet.

My neighbors are still replace their old car by Toyota ones. The whole street will be filled by Camry, Corolla, Highlander, Sennia,... Hope that they don't choose the wrong cars.

Where are the Toyota models with the most problems being built? Toyotas are built in Japan, the U.S., and Canada. Before people get too pumped up over the "failures" of "that Japanese company" while extolling the greatness of the American automakers, they ought to find out if those Toyota models were made in the U.S.

It's nice to hear HC RISHER say that the Ford Fusion is such a great "American" car when in fact it's built on the MAZDA 6 platform.
On the matter of Toyota quality, after driving American cars for years, I have swicthed back to toyota a few years back and could not be happier.

Studies like this are not the best indicator of customer satisfaction. The only true indication of happy customers is to go to the dealership and see the smiles on the faces of Toyota owners. Yes, Toyota may have a few growing pains as it dramatically ramps up production. However, they have never lost money ina quarter since 1951and fiox every problem they encounter. I suspect they will attack this one and come out on top as usual.

I have 2006 Toyota Corolla S. In less than 2 years, I put a little more than 52,000 miles. Let me tell you that I didn't spend a single cent to repair it other than standard maintenance. I enjoy this basic car. :)

Toyota's quality problems began when they started to produce cars in large quantity in US. Some people think cars imported directly from japan are of higher quality. So next time I buy a car I will make sure the VIN starts with J.

I have owned 3 UAW cars and all were trash.
#1 1982 Buick Riviera (steering wheel even fell off in my lap)
#2 1987 Buick Riviera (was told quality had improved... it actually got worse)
#3 1995 Jeep Cherokee Country (total deathtrap, not sure how I survived)

After the Jeep, I just followed CR's guide and got a 1997 T100 (the Tundra's daddy). I purchased it new. I still drive it as a second vehicle and it runs like a champ, even the body still looks like new. 165k miles and no problems. Even replaced the original battery after 7 years (to my knowledge, the average lasts about 3 years). Watching the miles approach 200k is like a game. It's like winning the high score on a video game.

Here is the interesting part: all T100 trucks were built in Japan. It even has some GM parts in it (e.g. Delco battery, Harrison radiator). Now I have a Tundra. It is made in Indiana USA and I had problems within 2 months with the tranny (which has more wires running to it than a phone system), and this truck has no GM parts that I can find.

Do I blame "the American worker" at final assembly? Not likely, as Honda vehicles are also built here in America, and they are doing quite well with quality, right?

I blame the fact that Toyota is just getting too big and sloppy. GM has been there for decades, so have the other two UAW companies. Toyota made their bed and now they have to sleep in it, just like their rivals in Detroit. What does that mean for me? Well, if things don't change in a few years when it is time to purchase my next truck, it will be a Honda. After all, if gas prices keep rising, we should be well over $4 a gallon by that time and a smaller truck will be a better choice.

I have owned American cars and I have owned Japanese cars everyone of the japanese cars have made it over the 100,000 mile mark. Acura made it over the 250,000 miles and it was still running when I sold it. I currently own a Civic that was made in Ohio. Is great on gas unlike the Chevy Cobalt that I quickly got rid of. I can not justify buying a American brand when they are bearly building cars in America. Toyota is going to be the second largest car PRODUCER in the US

The bigger they are, the harder they fall. Look at Mercedes - some of the worst cars out there. They were #1 for years, and they rested on their laurels. VW/Audi is building some god-awful cars. What's ironic is that Honda keeps plugging along. They haven't been #1 in a long time. They're not flashy like Toyota. But damn if they aren't some of the best cars out there. We're on our 5th one. The VW we got was horrid. The Jeep was OK, until it hit 80Kmi. The Fords are just too painful to discuss. Toyota has developed a reputation for nickle-and-diming customers on options. Now it appears they've rested on their laurels too long.

I have done enough of my own research in conjunction with ownership of many brands and models to conclude that CR's test results are a very poor guage of reliability, build quality and owner satisfaction. I no longer fill out their surveys because they don't ask the right questions. I agree, their tests are biased toward pushing their own publications and online services.

It's obvious - when you're 'numero uno', the only way is 'down'. Toyota has 'ramped up' production, and it's obvious they haven't adjusted their production people to match increased demand - same ol' cost-cutting measure GM/For/Chrysler have suffered from in past decades. It's a possibility that some of Toyota's quality issues are related to who they outsource their parts requirements to - and I'd bet this began when the Chinese (mainland) became their suplliers. Ultimately, Toyota bears the responsibility for its (and others) falures - so 'passing the buck' here isn't gonna get it. They have too much at stake to not react - and reacting quickly is what has put Japanese car manufacturers at the top of the list. Persoanlly, I've never owned a Toyota - I'm on my fourth Honda Accord - this one a 1998 EX-L V6 with over 170,000 miles on it - and without exception, it's the finest vehicle I've ever owned (in the past 45 years of purchasing vehicles). BTW, at it's time of production, 97% of its contents were sourced from USA suppliers - including it's engine, transmission, chassis, etc. (the speedos were made by Ford) - these cars, like Toyota's Camry, in this form are only built and sold in this country. Sad, but true - the only thing 'American' about most domestic vehicles these days is their history. And, when you purchase Toyota or Honda, does your money stays in the USA? Honda employs over 16,000 people in it's California and Ohio facitlites (currently at four plants in Ohio, I believe) and has invested over $16 billion in facilities in this country since bringing motorcycle/vehicle production here in 1982 (the first 'foreign-label' manufacturer to do so) - and I'm sure Toyota employs that many or more at its facilities (Kentucky, etc.) - which means they pay American business taxes, their workers (many 'refugees' from Detroit, no doubt) pay income/sales taxes, etc. - and, for the most part these companies are participants in their various local/national civic/community organizations, etc. Then one must consider the various dealerships of these vehicles as businesses and employers/employees, as well - and
the 'aftermarket' suppliers, too. While not 'American' in nameplate (but then again, 'Chevrolet' is French) these monacles certainly are 'threads' witin the American business 'fabric'. Don't count Toyota out just yet.

I bought a 2001 Pontiac Grand AM new & right away the warning lites would come on for no reason, numerous brake jobs all kinds of problems including overheating and finally a blown engine due to that crappy dexCool anti freeze.It cost me $1800.00 for the blown head gasket job, GM would not offer any assistance.I Traded it with only 45,000 miles on it for a new Toyota Camry Solara,the best car I ever owned.Handles great, workmanship is tops and they sure do hold their value.

I no longer recommend vehicles to anyone as I have seen time and again that some folks could ruin an anvil with a rubber mallet.

Some ignore noises, some drive a vehicle too hard, or some simply neglect their cars.

I'm not going to recommend Brand X only to watch them ruin the car and then complain to me. If I can get 200K miles out of Brand X - why can't they?

I have seen cars that I would have never expected to - last far beyond their cousins. I have seen other cars die prematurely.

Having bought and sold over 3 dozen cars through the years I have bought more than a few that were good cars after their maintenance was brought up to schedule, and after a dozen little problems were corrected (minor repairs). These were cars that their owners complained often about and took to the cheapest mechanics they could find just to save some cash. Some of these people have realized that their car problems were self-inflicted after I began getting good service out of their old car.

I am convinced that with the proper care (daily careful driving, maintenance, and quality repairs with quality parts) any car will last longer than the average owner has interest in it.

There just isn't that much difference in the initial quality of cars to worry about. There isn't that much difference in the quality (durability) of a vehicle at the 125K mark either. The difference comes out after that either in the form of cost prohibitive repairs, vehicles that were not designed to be repaired easily (rebuildable components), or little things that add up like brittle plastics that crumble or window mechanisms that were designed to be cheap and function like they are cheap but are EXPENSIVE to replace.

I have owned Hondas and VWs for years and have had excellent service up to and over 200K miles each.

My dealer experiences (all dealers) has generally been poor most of the time - 200%+ markups on parts, bad repairs, unnecessary repairs, outright lies - so I do 100% of my own repairs and have for years with OEM parts when I can afford them.

I think rather than debating which brand vehicle is the best we ought to be debating which brand is the easiest or cheapest to repair. Which brand has the best dealer network. Which brand has a parts desk who sells parts at a reasonable price. Which brand has the most honest salesmen.

The debate about Ford vs GM vs VW vs Honda vs Chrysler is out of date. We are - like the review magazines - are hinging the value of a vehicle on a fraction of a second acceleration time - tiny details that make no difference in the daily use of a vehicle. What we need to be talking about is who has the most durable interior. Who has the best switch gear. Who builds the vehicle with the fewest failures at the 100K mile mark.

I've stuck with the used imports for us b/c they have the right style and the right "flavor" - sporty lightness. The big 2.5 have come close with their some of their current cars but they continue to build heavy cars with heavy V-6 engines when we really want smaller engines and lighter cars at my house...

Toyota should have never started building their cars over here in America. Whatever made them believe that American slackers could ever have the same pride in workmanship as the Japanese? They need to close all their American plants and go back to building them solely in Japan. Then you won't have any more of these quality issues. My two cents.

IrisM - if Toyota never came to America, the auto industry wouldn't be enjoying the fierce competition it does now. Foreign competition helps drive the global economy. Toyota is still the number one producer in the world, and despite the bad press and laxation Toyota has been doing, most Toyotas are still better built than American cars. Just sit a Toyota next to an equivalent class American car and you'll notice the attention to precision and materials between the two types.

The Sequoia, Tundra, and Sienna are built in Indiana and the Camry is built in Kentucky. European cars aren't much better (fun to drive but lots of mechanical problems from BMW and Mercedes). The best cars are built using Lean Production System as opposed to Mass Production System that most U.S. Manufacturers use. The argument about buying American is moot because no cars are all American built with American parts.

Toyota quality definitely slipped. I own two Toyota 2003 Corolla and 2006 Sienna. My Corolla had a few minor defeat such door handle crack and door foam seal loosened. But for my 2006 Sienna the problems are worse. Dash started rattling in 2k miles, paint on the wheels bubbled and sliding door wire broke off at 10k miles. Toyota corporate would not even replace the wheels claiming weather condition. When I told them I didn't have this problem with my older Corolla. They could not explain and just said we are only dealing with your Sienna now. This is bullshit. For the sliding door they would not even pay for the whole cost of the repair under warranty claiming wear and tear. Come on 10k miles wear and tear. This is huge disappointment. I

I kept hearing about the Japanese quality. Thought I would try it out. Seven months ago I bought new and cute little Matrix in a pretty blue. What a piece of crap, paint coming off the hood and left door. The cruise only works with a tail wind on a downhill road. The Toyota Rep told me their paint was not covered under warrenty and the cruise was normal. She never touched the car or drove it. In fact she told me all this before we ever looked at the car, it was in the parking lot. (The Service Mgr. is OK, very embarrassed and agrees with me.) He also told me as other employees did also. Its the paint and lack of quality control in general.) I had two folks so far that were considering getting a Toyota that have now dropped them off the list of consideration.

Toyota's quality has definitely slipped. I thought I could not go wrong with Toyota. I bought two Toyota 2003 Corolla S and 2006 Sienna. My Corolla S has couple minor problems interior door handle chromeplate came off and door seal came off at 7k miles. My Sienna has worse problems: dash started rattling at 1k miles, alloy wheel paint bubbled up and sliding door wire broke off at 10k miles. What's bad is that Toyota does not own up to the problems. They claimed paint bubbled up due to weather condition not covered by warranty. I told them my Corolla did not have this problem. They responded "We are only dealing with your Sienna right now". They would not even cover all the repair of the sliding door. They claimed wear and tear and would not cover the whole cost under warranty. I have to pay $2k out of pocket. This is very disappointing. Today's Toyota is not the same good quality Toyota two decades ago. I'm thinking of getting rid of them and never buy Toyota again.

People - It is NOT about quality – you’re completely missing the point of the automotive experience - quality discussions are simply good vs. slightly better - who cares? And it varies more by model than by manufacturer. I've personally driven 6 vehicles to over 1/4 Million Miles each recently (a Chevy, a Pontiac Bonneville, a GMC Yukon, a GMC Suburban, a VW Jetta TDI, and a Mercedes E300 diesel – our Farm Toyota Pickup got sold early b/c couldn't tow heavy loads). And I now have an 03 Burb at 120k and a 2000 Benz E55 AMG in the 140k range - a few years from 250k. And I still have my 96 Benz E300 diesel for a trip now and then. WRT reliability/repairs, the worst was a tie b/w the 1996 Suburban and the Toyota P/U. The best was the Bonneville that I sold at 337k - never had ANY major repairs besides alternators. But you can't even begin to judge them till they hit mid hundreds, preferably 200k or more. By 1/4 Million the durability is clear. That's when you can start to talk about quality - NOT before. But quality/durability isn't what it's about anymore - the days of the 100k mile drive trains are long past - they're all good for 1/4 - 1/2 million miles now (OK, I’ll exempt Mopar and Jag from that statement and Toyota if you try to tow with it) -Regarless, it’s way longer than you care to sit you butt in the seat, especially if it’s as boring as a Toyota. It's about preference - I have owned ~50 cars now and have driven and worked on many models of cars. I HATE many of the Toyota models - cheap, plain, loud road noise interior (complete with rattles), underpowered, poorly engineered so it can be "snapped together" yet somehow still difficult to service, underwhelming dealer support (as bad as trying to get a BMW schematic!), poor cockpit ergonomics, middle of the road economy, and rust will surely end its life with holes you can stick your head thru in 10-12 years such that durability is a moot point.
My favorite car of the last 10 years is my E55 AMG Benz (OK my Vette is fun too, but I like the AMG better)- E55 is an engineering marvel - yea, there is a radio volume button that sticks on the steering wheel, and a few other quirks, but 350HP/400ft-lbs puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. It's not about quality - it's about preference - start buying what you want and quit worrying about whether it would have run 400 or 500k miles in the absence of salt or whether it has a few quirks or might need a little repair once in awhile - are you really willing to rub your head on the headliner of some underwhelming equipped car with the styling appeal of a melted marshmallow, and the performance and road noise of a log wagon?????? (I'm talking about the Camry here - drive one if you don't know what I'm talking about) And are you really that strapped for cash you cant afford a few repairs? If so save your money - buy a Ford instead of paying the Toyota premium. Or get a VW TDI if you just want economy - drive a Diesel Benz if you want economy and luxury. Drive a GM Burb to Tow the Boat/Camper while hauling the whole family, and drive a Benz AMG or Porsche or an M5 if you want performance. Drive a GM car if you want a good balance of up low initial cost coupled w/ decent economy, quality, and driving experience. Drive a Camry if you have no clue what you want and don't have a clue about what a car really should be other than some stupid "initial quality" rating from the first year before the car is even broken in! Drive a Toyota pickup if you want a p/u to go with your Camry but don’t ever need to haul or tow anything heavy. But in whatever you decide to do, enjoy life and give God the Glory every day!

I have been hearing alot of complaints with the new Toyota Camry. Transmission issues, build quality issues, etc. I personally own a 2006 Scion XA (also a Toyota product a.k.a. in Japan as the Toyota Ist). Not a single problem yet after a year and a half of ownership. No rattling, no built quality problems, just nothing but a well-built, fuel efficient car. I have spent a total of $40.00 so far on rotating the tires but have not had any other issues. The car cost only $13,800 initially. I owned two Chevrolets which were both crap. In need of constant repair and built poorly. The passenger door of my Cavalier used to open on it's own while making left hand turns...SCARY!!! And it took several trips to the mechanic to get this fixed. Then the back door just stopped opening. That's a crap car. The two Civics and the Nissan Sentra I owned had more mileage than the Chevy's were a few years older but they never died on me. Toyota is still a smart choice in my book although their cars tend to be boring for my tastes. What a good idea Scion was to give those who like something funky looking something to buy at a low price. I don't care how good GM, Chrysler, and Ford say they are getting. They spent decades and decades too long putting out nothing but crappy disposable cars and I have seen first hand experience from friends and family that made the mistake of buying them. I will never make the mistake of buying another American car. I would consider a Hyundai or Kia if you want something cheap.

even the Toyota encountered that problem again, i still like their cars especially their Toyota Rav4... it's my dream car...

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If you really want to see some significant toyota quality problems, do a search on toyota engine sludge. From at least 1997-2002 they had a design flaw that caused many engines to fail across model lines and even Lexus. It was hidden well until internet users compared their experiences, and MSN published used car reliability ratings. Toyota skated by keeping it as quiet as they could. No more toyotas for me.

I havent had a new vehicle in 22 years, so i really have no comparisons, or first hand knowledge of reliability of domestic or foreign vehicles. I do believe the older japanese cars built in japan were for the most part very good vehicles. My 1986 camry has 359,000 on it,and no major repairs. 5 or 6 timing belts, several sets of struts, 1 rack and pinion, tie rod ends, 2 sets of cv axles, 2 water pumps, 1 alternator,1 starter, 1 clutch kit, clutch slave and master cyl, 1 distributor, 2 mufflers, 1 heater blower. Except for the struts and timing belts, most of these items were replaced between 200k and 300k. No brake master cyl or wheel cyl has ever been replaced. NO bleeder valve has ever been opened. Ive only replaced fluid in master. I still have original radiator and heater hoses on vehicle. I do carry spares, but original japanese rubber is the best. Never a problem with electronics or injection sys. A/C gave it up 2 years ago. car has only been in shop 1 time, for clutch installation. Ive done all the other, all being basic mechanical repairs.Best darn car ive ever owned. Doubt i will ever find another like it. Need to start looking though.

RIP GM

RIP FORD

Don't get too caught up in Toyota's made in America claims. Sure they have assembly plants here, but they are all in what are generally cheap labor states. They have a small percentage of line workers making close to what the Big Three make, but that number keeps getting smaller while the number of temporary workers keeps going up. This means a much smaller pay scale with no health or retirement. What this means is a lot less money being spent on housing, recreation, doctor visits, dentists, travel, and pretty much every aspect of the U.S. economy. Every time a Ford or Chevy worker loses their job and is replaced by a lot lower paid Toyota worker, or because their job was sent to Mexico to try to compete with the low wage scale of Toyota, it affects almost every other job in America.

I've had quite a few Toyotas starting in 1987. Loved them. Then I got a 1991 Four Runner. Required a new engine when the intake manifold failed. Toyota replaced even though it was out of warrantee. A 1994 Four Runner, same issue. I got to pay for that engine. Then a 2000 Sienna Van. Not too bad but the build quality was less. Easily dented and broken. My last Toyota. I tried an MDX after that and really enjoyed the quality. Still have it. Just got a GMC Yukon XL. I've never bought American before and I am pretty happy with this vehicle. For a throw away car, I also bought a 2007 Hyundai Elantra. Great vehicle. Excellent quality. Just not very comfortable for my old bones. More appropriate for a younger crowd.

I purchased a 2009 Camry last week based on the quality spiel from the salesman which was backed up by Consumer reports. After driving it for a week or two I am having serious buyers remorse. The car in nowhere near the quality level that it is said to be. The paint has dark streak defects in the hood, trim is coming off of the roof, the dash rattles, the right speaker is already blown, the trim on the side curtain airbags is not cut cleanly and looks like it was installed by a third grader. The headlights don't even line up. I'm not sure if that is by design or not, but it is annoying. Want to trade for a Dodge Avenger.

I've loved Toyota products, but since my 2003 Camry I've decided my next car will not be a Toyota. The erratic shifting, parts wearing out too fast and nickle & dime repairs remind me of the old fords and Chevrolet products I used to favor. I intend to give them a try because value of Toyota is no longer worth the premium Toyota price.

i have a 2007 toyota camry four cylinder and it is crap. its very sluggish and unreliable i recently got my transmission changed because it failed at 15,000 miles....just goes to show how much toyotas quality has dropped

After purchaseing six Toyotas I recently had a very disturbing experience with a dealer in Ohio. I took my 2005 Camry LE in for a clunck in the steering and the dealer told me I needed a new rack and pinion at 41,000 miles because the power steering fluid was leaking into the boots. I wrote Toyota and guess what they refused to help me! I then took it to another dealer 50 miles from home where I purchased the vehicle and they diagnosed it correctly with a faulty intermediate steering shaft and repaired it out of warranty. I did some research and discovered Toyota issued several service bulletins on this issue for this model but refused to extend the warranty so I had to pay for the repair ( I accept that). It was obvious that the first dealer was trying to rip me off so I wrote TMC again with all the documentation that proved it and again they refused to do anything for me (not even a apology). I can assure you this will be the last Toyota I have purchased! It is obvious that loyalty is one sided with Toyota.

If anybody ever ask me why our economy sucks I'll just give them the link to this and let them read. You people should move to Japan, your a disgrace to America, and how can you even call your selfs Americans. Your all a bunch of flag burners. Buy American, instead of putting a little japaneese kid through school put an American kid through school. Put some food on an American kids table.

Agreed Bill. I'm Canadian and agree. All of North America revolves around the North American auto industry, and were feeling it hard up here too. And yet you have people who buy imports and have the nerve to bitch about the economy. It's not rocket science folks, I don't care how high up the totem pole you are, you pull out the foundation and the house falls. Hope you can speak Japanese, because were fast becoming a third world country in comparison to Asia. Just look at the US debtload to the Chinese and you get a pretty clear picture of the future. Goodluck.

First of all Ford has a higher quality rating then Toyota.

Next this American cars are not crap as the guy above so eloquently stated, we have built better cars for a long time.

I have worked in the automotive industry for a lot of years, and the one thing I can say, is when I worked in repair shops we fixed as many imports as American cars, and they cost more to fix.

So yeah they are a great thing, for the countries that build them, but not for our country.

David C. Atkin

For quite some time I have listened to and read some of the prominent automotive arguments and I think it is only fair to address them correctly.

1) It always seems to be brought up in online discussions when comparing the American manufacturing geography versus the Japanese geography. Someone always taunts the labor force behind the companies, stating that the Japanese are employing Americans to work in the manufacturing facilities while the American companies are outsourcing to foreign labor forces. The problem with this argument is that the attacking party fails to question just one thing, Where are the profits going? While the Japanese companies may employ American workers, the profits from the products return to Japan. On the other hand, the profits generated by the American manufacturers, where ever they are stationed, return to the American Economy.

2) Another argument that is inherently annoying is the average American's immediate perception when they hear the word Japanese. There are countless people in America that automatically think that because it says "Made in Japan" on the inside of the door frame, it is the greatest car ever produced. While the Japanese do make a good product, unfortunately to most peoples dismay, that car isn't all Japanese. A growing number of steel imports to Japan comes from the reprocessed metal from America. In reality most of what is in the melted down metal is old American cars. So essentially, a Japanese car isn't really completely from Japan, it is partly American.

3) Automotive blogs are starting to see new references to the great royalty of our country. Apparently the big three have lost their title and, according to some, the thrown has been abdicated to Lexus, Infiniti and Acura. Like most things today, nothing is given, it must be earned. Being since the new Kings aren't American, that social generalization does not apply. The American people no longer see value in companies such as Mercedes-Benz, Ford, GM and Chrysler who most have celebrated over a century in business. The new Kings have entered the market only in the recent decades and the American people are quick to respond by hurling the rains to them. As working hard for over a century is no longer a value and no longer earns the respect it deserves, don't expect Japan to wear the crown for as long as the American people want, Korea is next in line.

4) When the debate arises the topic of bailout and bankruptcy, the only thing to be said is, a blind man with leather glasses could have seen that coming. The same people who berate the now exiled big three are generally pro-UAW. The biggest fault of the American people is failing to realize the lethal poison of the unionized labor force. In a recent study, a starting salary for an entry position on the assembly line at any of the Detroit Three stands at about twenty eight dollars an hour. In comparison, the average factory worker occupying the same position in one of the foreign plants in the southern states starts out at roughly seventeen dollars an hour. With the sky high labor costs coupled with overly demanding unions, I don't think this requires any further explanation as to why GM filed for Chapter 11.

Hopefully the American people will find some Visine and see the reality of the situation. Its doubtful that it will be acknowledged much less rectified but in closing, know that when you buy Japanese, you put money in the pockets of someone from a culture that believes Americans to be smelly, dirty and beneath them.

Ryan- Thanks for the racist drivel. Toyota Honda Mercedes BMW Kia and a few others have voted in favor of the US labor force by investing here. Made in Japan a generation or so ago was a sign of inferiority. Today it is considered a sign of quality, thanks to the Detoit idiots. And those evil Japanese, Koreans and Germans keep taking profits and investing them in US for factories engineers and designers. I tend to think these companies more patriotic than the ones in Detroit.

The UAW is what's killing the US automaker. Get rid of them and you'll see a big change

It's funny someone should mention Japanese cars using American metal. Just to give you an example, for mustang is only 28% American. While it is true that the Japanese build quality has gone down (at least Toyota) they still make better cars than Ford, GM, or Chrysler. V4s always outlast the V6s. Japanese cars just can't take abuse, go with a Police Intercepter Crown Victoria for that. Maintained right, any Toyota will last at least 120,000 miles. American cars are NOT crap. They're very good cars, but in my opinion, they're still over priced and I'd have to agree with Bill about the labor unions. Get rid of them and cut out the pension plan - for a better future.

120,000 mile? Maintained right and any car/truck should give you well over 200,000 miles. I have a 1990 Ford Ranger that I bought new, and it now has over 356,000 miles. I feel that if you get rid of the UAW they can drop the prices a lot, sell more cars/trucks and put some of that profit back into improving the quailty. But we have to start somewhere and we will never get there is Americans don't start buying American.
If your not with us your against us.

I am a traveling computer engineer who works for a large US software company. I rent cars EVERY week and on my Hertz profile I specifically ask for the Toyota Camry. I personally have owned Toyota trucks a camry and now a 2002 avalon. They have all been great. I do have to report around model year 2005 and newer that the toyotas I have been driving have REALLY changed in a negative way. They all drive stiffer and less smooth down the road and rattle. There is an issue with the engines hesitating then jumping forward from a dead stop. I have also noticed little cosmetic issues and plastic pieces breaking, cracking etc. Unfortunately I would not buy a NEW toyota now. I would buy an older one in good shape. As far as new cars go, look at FORDS now. Much better quality and the F-150 is better looking, drives better and is about the only full size truck left which has an available chrome bumper.

I have purchased six Toyotas since 1992 for myself my wife and daughter most of them from Metro in Cleveland. I always had excellent service from them and the vehicles. However I live some sixty miles from Metro (Cleveland) and have taken my last Camry to a dealer in the Lorain Ohio area for oil changes and check ups. It is because of that dealer I discovered that Toyota Motor Corporation has no loyalty to its customers. I took my vehicle at 40,000 miles for an oil change and to check a slight clunk in the steering and was presented with an estimate for a steering rack for $1600.00. I then took the vehicle to Metro for a second opinion and found out it was a steering shaft for $450.00. After researching the issue on the internet I discovered that Toyota issued several service bulletins on this substandard part. I wrote TMC (Toyota Motor Corp) and issued a complaint about the attempted consumer fraud by there Lorain County Ohio dealer and provided copies of all the documents. There response was nothing more than a letter stating they received my correspondence and reviewed it. I called TMC the evening I received the letter and politely told them that I would never purchase another vehicle from them. An apology from TMC would have been all that was needed to insure the continued loyalty from a long term customer however they chose not to so. My thoughts are Toyotas quality is slipping along with there customer satisfaction and I believe Ford will eventually be number one.

Toyota went down hill when there were more accounting/finance people than quality control people at all of the new start ups in the US. The death nail to any corporation is when you have more financial analysts watching money than quality specialists protecting quality. Mr. Akio Toyoda, the grandson of Mr. Toyoda needs to clean house in the A/F area and give the engineers and quality people back the company.